Well we had some words and my wife’s nastiness has calmed down. I basically shot a lot of holes in her lies. We’ve been spending a few evenings a week watching DVD’s together with out much conversation, but at least we can sit in the same room. Kisses are back on the lips. We even had SF a couple of times in the past week. We can speak to each other in a civil manner, but conversation does not flow like it used to. I found some MC info on the printer the other day.

On the other hand I hear her telling her sisters and friends that it’s over, we’re just cohabitating and raising 3 children. Could this be some kind of female pride? Still no mention to them about her secret phone calls that lead me to believe it was an affair and confront OMW.

Give it time Mark and take comfort that it is improving. A lot. A whole lot. My FWW said much the same things, even when things were getting better. I know the impatience that you feel, but it sounds like she is really coming around. She is going through her process and it sounds like you are doing the right things.

In my case, when my FWW got it, she really got it and then I saw all the things that I was so impatiently waiting for - remorse, complete opening and a 180 degree turn-around from "let's get divorced" to "I can't believe I did this to the most wonderful man ever".

I found in my sitch that by talking about my mistakes, she would talk about hers. I found that once she started turning around, I didn't even have to bring up the R or the A - she did. I just kept being loving, avoiding LBs and being available when she wanted to talk. Ironically, later in MC, she seemed to think that I always brought up the subject of the R or the A, when I knew I had consciously avoided any mention of it! It's on her mind, so you don't have to push it.

I guess the point of all this is that things are so much better than they were. Don't be afraid to sit back a bit, enjoy the progress you've made, and rest from the stress of constant R talk. Nothing says you have to push and strain all the time. Call it a strategic pause if you will - let her catch up.

Hope it helps!

Yeah I guess time will heal. We are still a long way from 'good'. My wife is admittedly depressed. She doesn't believe in medication (an she's an R.N.). Her printing out the email about couples counseling indicates something positive.

I am still very uncertain of things working out with us. I think her EA went on too long and she developed real doubts aboyut her love for me. I'm not terribly thrilled that she's here beacause of finacnial reasons and she's scared to leave.

So what happens when a WW comes around? Soes something finally snap and they open up? Or is it more typically a very gradual process? Patience isn't something I'm known for, I just want this fixed yesterday.

For us it was kind of a snowball effect. It did seem to take a long time to get things started, but once it got rolling it developed a momentum of its own.

I think it is hugely positive that she is doing some reading on her own. It means she still wants it even if she thinks it is unattainable right now.

We all want them to be with us for love and all the "right" reasons. I felt like I was being settled on for a while, but the further we were separated from the A, the more that changed for the better. She began to realize how awful it was and why she was with my in the first place.

I am terribly impatient too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. It was sort of a snap thing. I think MC was the trigger for us and that whole week preceeding it. The week prior, I told her that I thought that further contact with OM would be a divorcible offense to me. At that time she still didn't admit she had even had an A. For her you had to have intercourse for it to "count". I saw her eyes open up when I told her that. Looking back, that is when I really started making the boundries crystal clear and sticking to them. It sounds like you have started establishing your boundries too.

Then when we went to MC, more than anything our pastor had to say (although it helped that he backed my view that an EA is still an A) was that it just gave us permission to talk. We opened up about things we had avoided for months or even years. I took full responsibility for my mistakes, but stuck to my guns about her taking responsibility for hers. She started to open up after I admitted my mistakes. I think she thought that it would be all about her, but I made sure it wasn't.

Of course we blew up and had a big fight after the first session, but once the cards were on the table we were able to move ahead. Her initial reaction was negative and heavily fogged, but in the course of one argument after the first session, I think her arguments lost steam for her and she realized they weren't true. That she did love me and did want to work it out and didn't want a divorce.

One thing that does help if you can manage it is to go to church or another family oriented activity. It helps to be around other happy couples.

Keep your chin up. It sucks to have to wait and be patient, but it's worth it. Sounds like she's coming around.

Wishful thinking, imho... sorry.

RUN to a MC while she's still considering it. I wouldnt leave this to chance. I think the statement to her sister tells you all you need to know.

Dont be complacent! Bring up MC, tell her you want the best shot you can get to make this marriage strong. Please take care - Dru

We've discussed MC, but for the longest time she's been opposed to it. Not too long ago she conceded it was probably the best solution, but she was too busy with things.

I hate to pester, since I fear it will only make her dig her heels in against it.

Hi Mark,
Dont pester, just ask. Tell her you think she was right! That you think it IS the best solution, and ask her if she'd like to try it for a few months. Tell her, if she likes, you can put together a list of MC's in your area, and let her call them and pick the one she wants. That's what I did with my H. I wanted him to be comfortable as possible with the idea.

I'm telling you, sticking your head back in the sand and hoping for the best isnt going to get you what you want, in the long run. Dont let things fester. Are you in a real Plan A? Watching the LB's, actively working to meet her EN's? She's back, you're getting a glimps of good stuff now and again... really tighten up the Plan A if you need to. Best of luck to you! - Dru

Compared to where she was, I think that any gesture that she wants to work on the M is good. I found in my sitch that when we went to MC it helped tremendously because she thought everything I was saying was emotional and irrational - even if it wasn't. Our MC was able to give her some objective observations that validatied some of what I'd been trying to convey. Most specifically that EAs are legitimate As. If you go to MC, make sure that the MC is pro-marriage, (we used our pastor) and is knowledgeable about EAs. Also make sure not to hijack the MC session (a godd MC won't let you anyway) and only talk about her.I scored huge points with my FWW by enthusiatically talking and admitting what I did wrong before the A. Think back to some of the things that you did to her that hurt and didn't respect her and admit it, apologize for it and don't try to minimize or dismiss it.

Keep working your planA, sounds like you're doing great. Keep things moving forward, but don't be afraid to take a breather here and there. It can help to look back and see the progress you've made, especially when the journey ahead seems long and hard.

Compiling a list sounds fine, but don't make it too easy for her. If she really wants to do MC, then make her do a little work for it. Making the calls, setting the appointment...

I don't think it's entirely wishful thinking, but be careful not to put more meaning on it than there is. It's a positive sign, but you can't see inside her head so don't make assumptions about her motives. I'm an optimist, so sometimes I have to moderate my hopes so I don't get ahead of myself.

Keep us posted!

Had another fight today. Wife woke up in a bad mood. Well I called her on it. She started in with I haven’t loved you for years. Then she says it comes down to deciding if she loves me or not. Then I here she wants to leave and take all three kids with her, but she won’t be able to handle them so here she stays. I had a bad nights sleep myself so anxiety is high for me. Now it’s back to the silent treatment. I just want things back to normal. I want so much to talk right now, but she’s too busy with her term papers. I’m having a bad day.

I'm having a really hard time of things these last few days. I'm feeling clingy again. I can't hug my wife like I'd like to, but thats what I want to do. My anxiety is really bad right now. I've been on Celexa for over 2 weeks and was feeling good for a while. Doc just upped the dose Monday, but my anxiety was peaking before then. Life is very busy with the kids sports in full force right now, but I just don't feel any motivation.

With our heated conversation on Sunday my wife gets very irate when I get close to talking about her EA. She constantly switches thuings back to 'all those years' of feeling lonely. I get I haven't been in love with you for years, how do people live in arranged marriages, to I'm not sure if I'm in love with you or not. She even asked if she was crazy (insane) at one point.

She say she needs her IC to vent and have someone tell her she's not crazy. She asked me if she was crazy. I just replied that she is highly depressed and she is lashing out.

Hi Mark,


Well, that wasnt very productive, was it? Why did you do that? You picked a fight with your W and act surprised? Why are you challenging her on a 'bad mood'? Did you think that would make you look good in her eyes? Do you understand about LB's?



Can you answer these for me?

Do you understand Plan A? Is there some reason you are not doing Plan A?

Do not be whiny, do not ask her about her feelings... Dont do things (like 'calling her on a bad mood!) make her think bad things about you. YOU be sweet, supportive.

Read about Plan A!

She agreed that MC would be a good idea, have you set that up?

Have you done anything different since your last post or are you just running on your emotions? Time to put those aside and get LOGICAL about saving your marriage. What you are doing now is not helping you!!! - Dru

Its so hard to make things work. No matter how hard I try I just can’t be happy and I wear my heart on my sleeve. I try to overlook a lot of things, but I can’t overlook overt hostility. Maybe I’m more brazing since one argument proved fruitful in stopping the really bad emotional abuse. I also see stuff about a conflict phase and wonder what that is all about. Are we there yet?

All she tells her friends is how she wants to end this marriage. But she fails to mention what exactly happened that pissed her off so, me talking to OMW.I am not so sure her EA has warped her mind. I honestly believe she has lost the love for years. Sometimes I wonder if I’m holding onto her EA (she doesn’t see it that way) just gives me false hope that things will turn around.

Now that the kids sports have started up I can get out a lot. That helps, but I am not myself and do not enjoy them as much as I did.

The bulk of her school work is over and I am again thinking about raising the MC issue. She tells her friends she doesn’t want to do it. I still want to be married to her, but I wonder if I’m just being used for financial support and housing. She tells me she is just afraid of making a wrong decision in leaving. Will she regret it? That’s all that is holding her back right now.

Any conversation is we have is very terse and emotionless. I’m not the most outgoing person so such things shut me down. My old ways of initiating small talk are met with hostility. If I ask what she did today she feels I’m giving her the third degree. Ask her how her day went she just says ‘fine’ in a sarcastic voice.

Sometimes I wonder if deep in the back of our minds we’re just waiting for the other to bail out first.

Hey Mark,

Somebody once told me a valuable piece of wisdom...

"It took me 20 years to get this [email]F@#$ed[/email] up, it'll take me 20 more to [email]un-F@#$[/email] myself"

It won't get better overnight. If she has been losing love for you for years, it'll take some time to get that LoveBank balance back in the black.

I'm in recovery with my FWW, and the issues we are facing now are more related to the problems we had that set the stage for the A rather than the A itself. I had been doing some not-so-hot stuff for years before this happened, so even though I wish it would be better right away, it'll take some time. Try this analogy - even if you knew it was all over right this instant, would you trust her again right away? Of course not, it takes consistent action over time to build trust. Likewise, it takes consistent love building over time to regenerate that lost love.

You're impatient like me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now let me turn my questionable wisdom on myself <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It seems so hard to make love bank deposits. She has a go f*** yourself aditude right now. Not approachable at all. I wish there some way to make a massive deposit in her love bank. She erected a thick wall around herself and is not letting me in. My anti-d's cant make me feel better or less anxious. I'm really having a hard time functioning in life right now. I can't concentrate on my work. She preoccupies my mind. I just want this over yesterday. I don't get enjoyment out of things I used to like.

Oy Mark,

I'm ever the optimist, so try to find something positive, OK? I think all WS's have that attitude for a while. You were making some progress, so stick to the plan. Keep plan Aing. Make sure that you are not dwelling on R talk all the time and try to take a little control of your thoughts as well. To a degree, it is about mindset. I've known people who could never have a good time doing anything because they convinced themself before they even tried that they would hate it and not enjoy it.

It does take effort, but you need to take a step back and stop worrying about the M for a short time and take care of yourself. Stop thinking about all the things that you are a victim of! What can you do to take control of your life? What did you used to enjoy? Sit down right now and make a list of things you need to do and things that you used to like to do. Schedule your day that way and stay busy. An idle mind will lead straight to the negative thought spiral!

By staying busy and not dwelling you will be helping yourself immensely, and at the same time you will be making yourself more attractive! She doesn't think your are attractive when you are moping, so make an effort to show her what she is missing. It will feel VERY unnatural at first, but fake it and DO IT! Pretty soon it won't feel quite so unnatural anymore.

As a side note, if you list includes anything that you and your WW used to like to do, invite her along! And if she doesn't want to, DO IT ANYWAY! Let her know by your avtions that you would like her company, but that your happiness doesn't hinge on her.

EDIT: You could also throw in some things that you know would make her happy, like things around the house or whatever. Try to find a balance. :EDIT

Well that's enough of a pep talk for now. Post your list here because I want to see it. I'll hold you accountable for your own well-being <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Mark,
I've been following your thread and we are pretty much the same boat. I just can't wait to get through this!! My WH runs hot and cold, mostly cold these days. I have my good days and bad days too. My bad days are mostly when he doesn't react to me the way I want him to. The way he use to in the early years of our marriage when he was funny, comforting and supportive.Its frustrating because I know its in there somewhere.

I think he has maintained NC and is having withdrawal from a long EA. Its hard for me NOT to talk about the A and our R. I deal with things by talking them through. Once I have the facts I can cope better. He on the other hand does not like to talk about problems in general he would just work toward solving them with his own plan. So I think he figures "I gave up seeing OW, where's the problem?"

I've planning things that make me happy and hoping he will join in. I've been working on not giving him opportunities to reject me.

Its not easy hang in there.

We to;d our D12 about her physc appt. today. My wife says she hates me more than ever.

My daughter got very upset about the fact she was going. It was reported D12 made suicide threats to some of her friends. My wife did not want her getting checked out.

This came across as a big time love buster for sure. I'm glad my daughter is getting the help she needs. It's too bad she's taking it so hard. Oh by the way my wife is blaming me for my daughters problems. Sure I've been on edge and lost my temper a few times, but rarely.

I think my efforts are doomed again.

My wife sees nothing wrong with her EA and sites years of feeling not in love as her reason for wanting to leave. I'll keep trying, but its hard. Monday one of her freinds is coming to visit. I'm afraid of pro-divorce talk. Now is not a good time to bring up anything with her, nt even marriage counseling.

First and formost take care of DD12! I use to work with adolescents in crisis...you have to take action. This is hard for adults and in the mind of a child its worse. They have no control over their situation and the actions of the adults around them. You must be calm for her. Anticipation of a visit to a "shrink" is worse then the reality of it. Maybe they can point you in the direction of a peer support group for her.

I bumped up bob pure's toolkit. It is excellent, take a look when you get the chance.

Take care. Keep posting.

Yeah my D12 is the priority. I fear Tuesday to be a very trying morning. Wife will hare me, as per her its my fault D12 is upset. Wife thinks I was acting out while she was working nights and upset D12. I was more short tempered, but managed pretty well in spite of it.

My wife doesn't care how threatened or betrayed I felt by her EA. She wants out of our marraige pretty much, but it's a hard decision for her.

This morning has been fairly good. No arguments so far. She still is very silent, as I am too. No small talk, no kiss or hug.

I read Pure Bob's stuff and it gives me hope. But the thing is many here have undeniable proff of PA. Everyone knows PA's are wrong, but EA's fall into a completely different ball park for many. Whats wrong with talking on the phone or 'running into' each other at church and school?

What is wrong is that one spouse uses a member of the opposite sex to share the things that should ONLY be shared with the other spouse. Even if there is no physical contact, there is a very deep emotional one that is just as dangerous, if not more so. Furthermore, the emotional reliance on another person of the opposite sex, over magnifies marital problems creating a desire to exit the marriage instead of fixing it.

TMCM