We have been married 17yrs with 2 great children. My husband started looking into the Jehovahs Witness religion about 3yrs ago and has become fanatical in the last few months. I do not share his new found 'truth'. The children and I have been verbally bombarded and challenged by him to 'see the truth' and to take it up. The church had started making decisions involving my children and this is where I realised that I could not live in this realtionship anymore now that this invasive religion had entered it. He was prepared for us to leave and we have been separated for 5 months now. I view his attitude as being his new found religion being far more important to him than his family. Also 10 days after we left, he had himself advertised on a porno internet site looking for 1 on 1 sex. How the JW religion and this behaviour go together, I have no idea? The hurt is deep and just starting to heal, my children are my main concern. I have been resolved to remaining separated and going through with a divorce however still have that nagging feeling - have I done everything I could possibly do to save the marriage, is it worth saving? I want to set the right example for my children and do the right thing for myself - does anyone think the horse is possibly not dead yet or am I right to have stopped flogging it?

(((((mels)))))

Mels, I didn't read anything about YOUR belief, etc., so let me just give you MY opinion from my perspective of being a Christian.

First, Jehovah's Witness' is a cult that claims to be "Christian" but denies the fundamental truth of Christianity. In other words, they are are a "wolf in sheeps clothing." The fundamental difference is found in their twisting and outright deceitful addition of a word that does not exist in the original texts of John 1:1, in order to foster their own desire to deceive "men." In addition, the Scripture clearly states that you don't follow or believe anything that comes from a "false prophet," gives a clear definition of what a false prophet is and how you can KNOW one, and tells you "beware" of false prophets who come "tickling your ears," (i.e. appealing to your desires and emotions to hook you and get you to join them in their sin.)

Mels, true Christianity, first of all, is NOT a religion. True Christianity is a personal relationship with God.

So, you need to get as far away from his adultery with God, and you, as you can get. He is "deep in the fog" and only God can reach his hardened heart. All you can do is the Biblical directive that "if the unbelieving spouse leaves, let them." End it and go on your way. What is MOST important, in the pantheon of "important things," is YOUR personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the protection and spiritual well-being of your children. I understand that you should "do all that you can do" to save the marriage, but I also understand that it takes TWO people, moving in the same direction, to get to the desired destination. Mels, you can "beat a dead horse" and you "can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." The PROBLEM is a spiritual problem and SIN is the blinding force. The SIN needs to be dealt with first and until your husband reaches the point of repentance, the rest of your efforst will fall on "deaf ears" as someone else is whispering loudly in his ears right now to drown out the truth.

Your husband is in serious trouble God, so continue to pray for him that God will soften his heart and bring him to conviction of his sin. This IS a spiritual warfare issue and it needs to be "fought" in that realm.



Mels, there is little that you can "do" against cultic fanatacism. Let me put it this way by responding to a few things you said:

1. [color:"blue"]"I view his attitude as being his new found religion being far more important to him than his family. " [/color] Do you really think that God, who is partner to the COVENANT of marriage, would be the "god" of are religion that "breaks" the covenantal responsibility and COMMAND of God to husbands? Not likely, because even in the situation of an "unevenly yoked" marriage the believing spouse is commanded to 'live with the unbelieving spouse' in marriage if the unbelieving spouse will live 'as if' they are in an exclusive marriage covenant.

2. [color:"blue"]"10 days after we left, he had himself advertised on a porno internet site looking for 1 on 1 sex. How the JW religion and this behaviour go together, I have no idea? " [/color] I can't really comment on how the JW religion might "condone" such behavior, but I can comment on your husband's action. It's SIN. It's adulterous behavior. It is selfish and puts "self" ahead of humble obedience of God's commands. Suffice it to say that sin is "attractive" and "enticing" in many ways, to Christians and nonChristians alike. That is the nature of sin. But Christians are called to "deny self," to "take up our 'cross' daily and follow the Lord," to put on the "full armor of God" so that we can stand against the various onslaughts of Satan. Your husband may be many things, but a "follower of Christ" is unlikely. Though only God knows the true extent of his heart, his actions show the rest of us where his heart "seems to be."

3. [color:"blue"]"has become fanatical in the last few months. I do not share his new found 'truth'. The children and I have been verbally bombarded and challenged by him to 'see the truth' and to take it up. The church had started making decisions involving my children and this is where I realised that I could not live in this realtionship anymore now that this invasive religion had entered it." [/color] Of course they want you join their same "sin pit." Don't. Run away as fast as you can.

Mels, I know it hurts, but as in all cases of infidelity, the PRIMARY issue that needs to be addressed FIRST is a broken relationship with God. Without "getting right with God first" there is little hope of a reconcilation or reestablishing a more loving, God-centered marriage. Without God as the "third member" of the marriage covenant, it's like having a two-legged stool instead of the needed three legs. You CAN balance on it and stay upright for a while, but all it takes is a little shifting in the wrong direction and the two-legged stool falls over spilling the marriage all over the floor. Try as one might to get the marriage balanced again on that stool, and they might actually succeed for a while if they are determined enough, it's a temporary fix. The only way to truly stablize the stool and allow the marriage to work without all the energy going to just keeping the broken stool "balanced" is to to ADD the necessary 3rd leg.....Jesus Christ.

Put it into visual terms, a man and a wife grow closer together as EACH of them learns to walk closer with God. This is the process of sanctification and it begins with HUMBLY submitting OUR will and desires to the commands and teaching of the LORD. HE commands, we obey....because we love Him for what He did on our behalf to rescue us from sin. Here's what that 3-legged stool of marriage should look like:

.........God
........../\
........./--\
......../----\
Wife/____\Husband


God bless and comfort you with His presence and grant you His wisdom as you face this difficult time.

Mels - I recommend you consider his obsession as a pseudo infidelity - perhaps this is why you're posting your question here anyway - and seek marital advice from a professional counselor, not a religious based counselor. All you need at this point is one cult arguing against another. This would likely be a losing proposition. You need to attack this from a basis of logic, not "illogic" he has already dismissed.

His obsession may be similar to the "high" experienced by a WS who is addicted to his lover. You may also find useful info researching other similar situations such as the "Moonies" stuff back in the '60s and '70s. De-programming from this cult was a popular topic. So yes, the marriage may be worth saving based on the fact that similar things have been cured before.

I do not think classic MB principles for dealing with infidelity directly apply, e.g., Plan A to meet his emotional needs, but who knows? But you should clearly resist any efforts he makes to "save" your kids.

JMHO

WAT

Mel,

Your H sounds more like he is into obession than anything else. JW's do not condone nor keep a member who is into porn. More than most religions, JW's will and have disfellowshipped those who engage in such practices. Not an opinion, that is a fact.

Just a note to correct FH's comment about JW's being a cult. They are not. Cults follow a man and that is not what JW's do. For starters, take a look at their name. Don't want to make this a religious discussion, just wanted to clarify.

As for your H's extremes, you are right t/b concerned. A good belief will encourage and be beneficial to the family. To shove anything or bring bad practices within the family is not healthy.

You can tell your H that if his conduct is even 1/2 as bad as you have described, he is not heeding Bible counsel. So he really isn't in a position t/b teaching.

Like anyone, when we find something good, we can share it. Not all will have our POV but when they don't it is certainly not something to go off the deep end on.

IMHO, your H has issues taking him to different lengths. Probably other aspects of his life are also being affected. Do you have a good MC you can work with? I recommend you call Steve and see if he can help.

At the very least, read the book His Needs/Her Needs by Dr W. Harley. There you will find how much you should and shouldn't do to help your R.

take care,
L.

I agree with Orchid, and add that your husband's behavior is more than just a religious influence. It is more about control and dominance than faith - and the porn activity verifies that. He is "using" a dominating religion as an excuse to abuse his family - and I am relieved to see that you are resisting that dominance.

I'm kind of irritated by the dismissal of JWs as a cult, because my own faith has been dismissed as a cult by many out there who do not understand what I believe, or the religion that I follow which brought me to Jesus Christ. I know that the church to which I belong is NOT a cult. But I expect that eventually I will see FH label it as such - at the very least as a non Christian religion.

JW may very well BE a cult - but I will not judge that one. Mel, their faith requirements are strict. No birthdays. No celebrations. I wonder if King David could have survived BEFORE he broke the coveting commandment and the others - because he celebrated victory over his enemies and danced in public. During that time he was most favored by God. It is a religion of extremes and contradictions. But there is goodness in their congregations. It just hasn't brought out the best in your husband.

Mel,

How are you doing? Please let us know. It is sad to see people misrepresent or even misuse things to hurt others. Often I have seen many mistate things in my religion and sometimes I clarify it and others times just let it go. We do have to pick and choose what we spend our time on.

I am sure you want what is best for your family and your H should respect that. As for the 'no celebrations' statement, well again this is an exaggeration. No birthdays has it's reasons, celebrations have their place and I know since I have participated and even helped organize many of them. What kind, when and how much fun we have had along with all the good memories have all been a reality to myself and those I have shared those times with. I was raised with those beliefs and in time made a personal decision to make it a part of my life. It was my decision. Not that of a mind twisting cult.

My point is that your H's actions are not justified by that religion and probably not by many others so do not let him try to blame his actions on others. He needs to take responsibility for his actions and get help.

How can you help? Well you can identify and implement your personal boundaries. Work with a good MC, or even call Steve to set a plan. Get a good personal support system. This could even include your children, pets, anyone or thing that will help you feel safer and better. Of course you must be balanced and do things within reason. I find that praying for a clear mind and a calm heart really helps.

Do what is best for you and your family.

Unfortunately, A and other obessive conduct hits many people with a vengence. You can help take care of yourself and your family by being safe, but the WS must take corrective action himself.

take care,
L.

Hi, this is the first time I have entered a discussion on MB. It's taken me HOURS to figure out how to use this discussion board. so I hope you get this message <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My brother married a jehovah's witness girl about 20 years ago and it has divided the family. He will not have anything to do with us because we are seen as "evil" and a bad influence on his children. It is a very destructive religion and I know that the only way you would be able to make your marriage work is if you and your children became jehovah's witnesses. You would then be fully accepted but if you don't become one, then your marriage doesn't stand a chance. I believe you have done the right thing in leaving and I think it would be a good idea if you did a bit of investigatng about the implications of people joining this religion, so you have the upper hand. There are heaps of websites on the internet. Just do a search for "ex jehovahs witness" and you might find some interesting stories and advice.

Mels - How are you doing? No response from you yet.

Orchid, I have no intention of hijacking Mels' thread into a religious discussion. At this point I don't even know if Mels herself is person of faith or not, but she IS dealing with the Jehovah's Witness' religion directly and indirectly.

She needs to KNOW, whether she is a believer or not, that the JW's CLAIM to be a "Christian" religion but are so far from "traditional bible believing Christianity" as one can get. They CLAIM the title of Christian and DENY the diety of Christ, the deny the existance of a literal HELL, etc.

The JW's have even taken their perversion of Christianity to the extreme of "rewriting" Scripture to come up with their "own" Bible, the express purpose of which is to DENY the diety of Christ.

By ALL definitions the Jehovah's Witness religion is TWO things: 1) it IS a religion as is any group of people that adhere to a set of common beliefs to their adherents and, 2)it IS a cult with respect their CLAIM to be "Christian."

The fundamental tenet of true Christianity is that Jesus Christ is "God incarnate." Jesus Christ is not a "created being" and we humans are not, nor will we ever be "gods" as the JW's assert.

[color:"blue"]In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.[/color] (John 1:1, traditional bible, any translation)

[color:"blue"]In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was[/color] [color:"red"]a [/color] [color:"blue"]God.[/color] (John 1:1, New World Translation, Jehovah's Witness' Bible)

The word [color:"red"]"a" [/color]does NOT appear in any of the original texts, upon which modern translations from the King James Version forward, are based. The word "a" is inserted into the text, added to the Scripture, in order to accomplish ONE purpose, a willful attempt to deny the diety of Christ and reduce him to "just one of us, another created being, but not the Omnipotent God.

THAT difference alone is enough to "classify" the Jehovah's Witness religion as a "cult," or if you will, a religion that CLAIMS to be Christian while denying the basis upon which Christianity is founded. The same holds true for many other religions that claim the title of "Chrisitian" but don't believe anything remotely like "traditional" Christianity.

That it is a false claim (to be "Christian) is the same as if someone claimed to be a Democrat, yet believed, supported, preached, and acted like a staunch "right wing" conservative Republican. They could "claim" to be a "Democrat" all day long, might even be able to deceive many into thinking they were, but by all definitions of "Democrat" they would NOT be one, they would be falsely claiming to be what they were not.

If you want to go further, the JW's themselves say they "believe" the bible, but the Bible clearly denounces them as false because of their false prophecies, especially their numerous definitive prophecies that the world was going to end on a specific date. Those dates have come and gone, yet the JW's continue to deceive many.

That's all that I am going to say about it. If you want to discuss it further, move it to a separate thread so we can help Mels with her immediate problem.

KaylaAndy - without knowing "what you believe" or "what religion brought you to Jesus Christ" (unlike Orchid who has stated in the past that she is a Jehovah's Witness) it would be difficult for me to say anything about your religion. It is obvious that you have felt hurt in the past. But let me simply say this for now, Christianity is NOT a religion per se. Christianity is a personal RELATIONSHIP with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit(the Triune God), through the saving Grace of God through the working of salvation for us by God the Son, Jesus Christ.

If by some chance "your" Jesus is not the biblical Jesus, then not I, but the Scripture, would "label" such a belief and/or religion as false and, thereby, a "cult" merely appropriating the name of "Christian" to deceive those who don't know what true Christianity DOES believe.

Understand that there are MANY religious beliefs in the world. What defines the difference is Jesus Christ, who he is and what he did for us. Truth is truth, and the truth with respect to God and "religion" is revealed in the Scripture and proved true by Jesus Christ himself.

Understand, KaylaAndy, we are not, or at least I am not, saying that various individuals within any religion (or even those that deny the existance of any God) cannot attempt to live a "good, moral, life." Of course they can. That's entirely different than talking about which, of all the "religions" in the world is the "correct and only right" religion. KNOW WHY you believe and WHAT you believe when your eternal soul is "on the line" with that choice. That is what we all need to consider.

cult - a system of worship of a diety (Webster)

Applying this definition, all organized religions mentioned so far on this thread are cults. And don't they all have disagreements?

Pot, meet kettle.

Now, that said, depending on one's frame of reference, one cult can seem "extreme" from another or from generally accepted norms of social behavior. It appears generally accepted that JWs have beliefs that run counter to just about all rational thought. A fatalistic view, from my observation (based on some personal, unfortunate circumstances), with some self destructive beliefs that amplify the fatalism. E.g., a disdain for blood transfusions that could save a life - "oh well, that fate was predetermined, so why try to save a life anyway?"

This topic is relevant here because it's anti-marriage, IMHO. A betrayal of trust. It's presence is in this case is anti-marriage building. If two JWs or two of any like minded folks build a marriage together, have at it - I don't think we have a voice. But when a new belief system threatens a marriage, it's no different than an infidelity or any other betrayal of trust. Perhaps it can be dealt with.

WAT

I don't have the time to read all of this threat at present but there is a lady who posts here regularly (currently on holiday) who was a JW for years and both her and her husband left the religion a long time ago. She is a mine of information on the subject and if you were to put a call out to her, hopefully she will be able to offer you some wonderful advice. I know she suffered the wrath of her family for many years. Her name is "Anyname" so why not try to catch her attention. TT

Hi guys
thanks for all of your useful thoughts on this subject. It has taken me a while how to figure out how to reply, not the sharpest! I have used the quote button as that is all I could find that would allow me to post a message so if it is wrong, I apologise.
Those of you with questions regarding my faith. I was bought up in a mixed marriage - catholic and presbyterian. We had no formal religious instruction but attended sunday school and had strong morals and values instilled in us. I know there is a God and believe in him. I believe he watches over us and we are ultimately answerable to him alone. I believe that he 'reads hearts' and stuggle with the concept that the JW's have that you have to attend so many meetings per week and knock on so many doors per week and basically give up the 'wordly' friends you have and sometimes your family for your 'new jw family'.
I am an extremely honest and loyal person and my children are being bought up with the same christian morals that come straight from the bible yet the jw's see me as 'wordly' and my husband in particular judged me because of this. I dont believe that God would be approving of this and just simply dont agree with a lot of their teachings.
I have a simple attitude to religion - each to their own and do not force your beliefs onto someone else, ultimately we only have to answer to one.
This doctrine entered my marriage after 14yrs withour it. It also entered my childrens lives and overturned everything for them to the point where we were all persecuted on a daily basis for 'not believing'.

I guess I am an idealist and like to believe that good will prevail but the hole here keeps getting bigger. I didnt wish to bore you all with other details in the original post but for those who want to know, here goes.
My husband was dismissed from the police force 18 months ago for misconduct - i was lied to at the time by him as to the reasons and since separating have found out that it was due to dishonesty, laziness and generally they wanted rid of him. He then refused to work again. In order to keep the family afloat, I stepped up to full time in my position as a police dispatcher. We had a serious incident where a girl went missing and the police response was very lacking, and this girl has never been found. There was public scrutiny and my husband and I discussed the incident as I had inside knowledge - the police had made a mistake. My husband took this information and passed it on to the media one night while I was at work and without my knowledge. It broke as headline news and the police management were very embarrassed hence they launched an investigation into where the leak had come from. Long story short, it led to our home and my job was lost. When I discovered what he had done, I was to say the least devastated at the betrayal and deceit and went into shock, our families only source of income. I left to spend Christmas with my family in another country and to ponder the future.
On my return, I discovered this whole other life he had been having in secret, secret e mail box, secret meetings with females whilst I was at work etc. It just kept getting better! I decided that I just couldn't get past this amount of deceit and he refused to move out of the house. His parting comment to me as I left was that we were welcome to stay! This is the closest thing to indicating that he didnt want to lose us. Of note is that he had just an hour before, sent an e mail to one of his female contacts saying what a great night he had had with her and was looking forward to meeting up again.
He has made everything difficult for us right down to be able to get the childrens belongings from the house. Everything has had to go through lawyers on top of which, he has applied for shared custody - the only reason being a way out of maying maintenance for them.
He knows that I know about his extra marital antics and I confronted him in the weekend asking him if we could settle all of this maturely and respectfully so that we could all get on with our lives. He was aggressive and stated that he was no longer married to me, he was a free agent, he owed me nothing, wasnt oging to admit to anything and that I could basically get stuffed, he has moved on.
The difficulty I am facing is the healing process and feel a huge need for him to just face me and be honest with me. He cant even face me.
I also know that the way in which he has behaved and continues to is so against the beliefs that he so forcefully tried to make us take up. And yet a part of me is saying '17yrs, thats a long time!'
There are 2 children caught up in the middle of this with the prospect of ugly court battles.
I am angry because through no fault of my own, I am jobless, homeless, confined to living in this area and living on welfare. I dont want revenge just justice, we are paying the price.
All of the mutual friends have supported me and have nothing to do with him.

I know there is something not right with him and have to wonder if there is any hope and should I be trying to help him rather than walking away? I do love him, after everything but am not in love with him. I truly believe there is something far better for me on the other side of this but also feel that there is perhaps an obligation on my part to try just a little harder - I also understand how feeling that could appear to be a tiny bit insane !!! ANY THOUGHTS ??

MELS

Well it's not very MB of me but based on what you have said here, I say make sure you have the best legal rep you can get and brace yourself for the ugly battle.

I'm sorry Mels, but he sounds like a nutcase with serious problems.

Maybe some day down the road when he pulls himself together you might end up back together, but if you were my sister I'ld tell you to get away from him now that you have the chance and are already out the door.

Do whatever you can do to make sure your get full custody too.

I'm sorry if I am not promoting trying to save this marriage but the picture painted is pretty scary in my opinion.

He has committed several abuses against you and I believe, since you are now unemployed and virtually homeless, could seek assistance from the women's services locally. They would eat your husband for lunch, as venacular goes...

Visit www.drirene.com to see others describe your husband without knowing him... You'll find the behavior you've experienced as very familiar to those who post there.

editted to add: Mel - this isn't a difference of religion issue. He might try to make it so. But he is abusive, uncaring, and unrepentent. Let his newfound religion take care of him - chances are, as soon as they find out what he is, they will excommunicate him.

Mels, I, after reading your latest post (thank you for the additional pertinent material), agree with KaylaAndy. This is NOT a problem of religious differences. While there are many things that we could talk about regarding faith, your immediate problem is that your husband is a liar and a user.

He is simply using the religious mode now because it's convenient and it emphasizes control. Again, I could spend a lot of time talking to you about God's design and purpose for marriage, but it would be an exercise in futility because it would take both of you working together to understand and apply God's principles.

No, the problem you are facing is that your marriage has been a "convenience" to your husband for most, if not all" of your 17 years. YES, I understand the pain you are feeling and that YOU viewed your marriage as much more. But the reality is that your marriage was "over" a long time ago and was only held together because of YOU and your decision to honor your marriage vows.

Mels, there is much more at stake now. Yes, there will continue to be some pain, but now you must protect yourself and your children from this man and his possible evil intentions. Think of it like enduring some pain to eventually be cancer free and to build a new and better life.

Get a lawyer, get all your information about his affairs, etc. and get ready to fight the cancer for your children and for yourself. It's possible your husband might "turn around," but it would appear to be small odds of "slim and none."

God bless.

thanks a lot for the website reference. I think Dr Irene knows my husband personally? Anyway it is full of great information and really helped me to understand and see this in a healing way, it gave me some much needed power. I have a great network of friends and awesome children. I know that we will come through this ok, just time and patience. Anyway thanks again for your help, really appreciate it.