AAO

I have followed your h posts every now & then & it always struck me how damaging the 3 years especially were to both of you. It was pretty easy to read between the lines of his posts of what went on in general terms. All very sad for both of you.

It wasn't so long ago that JL & TMCM were both asking me the same questions they are asking you ...so what are you doing to save your M?

Well I'm sorry I cheated ..so

well I'm sorry I hurt my H ....so

I'm not worth the bullet it would take to shoot me ...so

etc etc etc

It ends up at the same question it started with so what are you going to do to save your M? well all the Plan A things, therapy, MC, accountability, earning the trust - still working on that one - patience, love, caring, & it goes on.

I know if I am going to be any wife worth her salt for my H I have to learn to forgive my self and anything he has done or thoguht he has done. He has to do the same.

Its just the start AAO, in a way you need to start plan A'ing him and it will take time. Are YOU prepsred for that?
You had a 5 yr affair at least 2 or more recent yrs where you put your H completely aside because you had an excuse to do so - you have to accept that. It may take up to 5 years to win him back if he can be wooed back.

The hardeswt thing I had to learn was that I CHOOSE what I did - I had and have free will - I choose my path, So did you.
Doesn't matter what our H did or did not do. As my MC/IC said to me if he jumped off a bridge would you follow?
Nope it was our choice AAO its really THAT simple.

Does that mean we are bad or evil? no darn way.

But we did do wrong.

YOU can fight for this M and maybe feel like the only one doing it but what have you to loose?? Go o Steve Harley and the other consellors for help..good get a plan up & running.

What you did is not what you are - THAT is a hard lesson to learn and accept. Show your H that by your actions, let him see the action match what you say.

I do so hope you can recover the both of you, your kids need the two of you preferrably together.

best wishes

I tried to post during the thick of things and the posts kept erasing. I was so frustrated and sad. Clearly my H had given up. I messed up 2 times during last NC. Neither time included words of "love" to OM and my H found out both times. However, he has been given advice from here and his dad that he should get a D and he served me with papers yesterday before my S basketball game. During this supposed plan A or B that he was doing, he has continued to go to bars by himself. Then he started talking to his father and at his urging, my H opened his own bank acct and tried to get me to turn the title of our home over to his grandfather. My H is not what he appears. He had at least one ONS that he hid for years, even after I told him of my A and we moved away. He told me about it offhandedly at dinner one night instead of during a counseling session. HE has never cared much about my feelings. He has continuously pressured me for SF and he has verbally abused me and walkerd out on me when I have said no. I have been distraught for years b/c I have been physically repulsed by him, despite the fact that he is attractive. I have tried with numerous counselors to get over it. During our supposed plan A or B he has made choices to tan at his apartment pool instead of fish with his son and he recently shaved his entire body. He looks like he just returned from the Carribean. He has admitted to being a sex addict but now he says he did not have an A and he is over the addiction. After all of this, the OM flew in last week and we discussed my recinding the arrest warrants I put out against him. I only filed them to show my H that I was serious about wanting the OM out of my life. He is now suing me for full custody and child support despite the fact that I have been a stay at home mom since my 9 year old was born. I have 2 degrees but have really never worked b/c my H and I had traditional parental roles. My kids and I are in for a year of hell, where my H and his wealthy family will try to keep from supporting me and my children.

It seems you have no sense of who you are without a man to define you.

It seems you have a pattern of choosing romantic relationships where you are guaranteed to be hurt.

It seems you have no use for a personal code of ethics. You simply point to the bad treatment of those around you, and their errors guide what your choices might be.

Do you ever wonder what your life would be like if you held yourself to a higher standard than the low standard of others around you?

Pep

AAO,
You desire to save your marriage? Then start doing the things that matter most. What are those things? Before we discuss that, let’s review some of the tone and suggestions that you are receiving from so many other posters.

It must be terribly painful for you to read these posts. Many here have surfaced unhealthy past behavior patterns that have basically shaped your current position. It is also clear from your post that you have not been alone in these practices these many years as your husband was enabler and indeed participated. On top of that he supported you in destructive behavior of the worse kind. What was it that you both thought would happen when you engaged in your ménage à trios? So now, here you are. What will you do?

Many have asked you here for your “plan”. Indeed, it takes a solid plan to be able to move forward into recovery. All recovery plans seem to contain a variety of common elements. The wise posters that have answered your thread discuss these elements throughout their replies to your plea for help. I fear that you may dismiss their views and advice as misplaced. Please, keep an open mind as I see as a disinterested party much wisdom.

AAO, there is much blame to go around, there were numerous mistakes made, hateful and hurtful behavior, destructives errors in judgment and the list goes on. AAO, that is the past. What is now important is what will you do with your future? We know what happened in the past, you told us and it was not very pretty. What you should be asking yourself is the following, “Who am I now, today, right this minute?” The answer to that question will put you on a path that will guide you for the rest of your life.

Everyone here will be enthusiastically pleased if you are able to renew your marriage. NO one here wants to see you divorce. Believe it, it’s true. So if you ask for help, help will come.

You have discovered many things about yourself in your travels thus far. You point out several items or behavioral traits that are unhealthy. I hope your plan addresses these shortcomings. Perhaps your husband will learn to address his issues too. You can’t change him; only he can do that, so it is you that we must focus on. His behavior patterns are for another post.

I suspect that the time has come for you to live the “Golden Rule”. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” How easy it is to forget such wise advice. Start with your marriage and husband.

Mr. G

Of course I cannot define myself without a man--I have spent the last 12 years of my life following H around, supporting him and taking care of three small children. I am 33 years old and I got married at 23. I got pregnant 3 months later and literally spent the rest of my 20s either pregnant or nursing.
My H is not and has not been in a good place. I am going to start taking care of myself. I AM a good person. I am kind to others and I am generous to others. You are right, my H cannot be changed, and I don't want to stay married to him if he doesnt. Therefore, I am on the right track. THis M would never work if we BOTH did not decide on our own to change. If you look back at my Hs posts, he does not seem to think that he does any wrong. All of his mistakes, transgressions and sins are "in the past" in his mind. Unfortunately, he has no clue. Recently, before I had contact with OM, my H lost it and verbally abused me over the phone with Steve Harley. When Steve asked my H if he would apologize, my H said, "for what?" My H has hurled very hurtful things to me when I refused SF, and he has walked out on me for not getting SF. He is all in the right and I am all in the wrong.
MY PLAN IS TO BEGIN HEALING MY SOUL. This does not have anything to do with him. It has to do with God and me. I can be a better person without my H at the present time. My H is on the offense right now, so my contact with him will be limited to notifying him of the kids sports schedule. I would love advice from compassionate experienced people who can help me figure out how to heal. I am hopeful today, because regardless of how this turns out, I will be a happier person. I will not react to others anymore. I will give my lawyers what they ask for and I will speak the truth. It is in Gods hands.

AAO,

Let me ask you this. Do you consider it good advice if it does not agree with your predecided view of things? Would you consider it good advice if what is asked of you is uncomfortable? Would you consider it good advice if it came from someone alot older than you and who has a long term marriage?

If the answer is yes to these questions, the please read on. If it is no, then you can save yourself some time, because you won't accept what I am about to say.

In your posts on this thread, EVERYTHING has been your H's fault. Your 3-4 year affair or is it affairs I forget played no role in how your H has acted and responded. You and only you have had to endure this marriage.

You say there are two sides to every story, but actually there are three sides: his side, your side, and reality.

You KNOW from experience that SF is important to your H, and yes to your OM right? So what do you expect when you refuse your H's advances, flowers?

Here is my advice to you and I hope you listen to it very carefully because no matter the future of your marriage unless you start taking some of the advice you have been given and address some of the issues raised your next relationship will be just as big a mess.

1. Get it into your mind that having an A is a very very bad coupling tool.

2. Get it in your mind that you have done a lot of damage to your marriage, your family, your kids, and yes yourself with these affairs.

3. Get it into your mind that blaming other people will NOT solve any problems. Assessing what is wrong and addressing it in a forthright manner, and yes seeking help is the ONLY way these things work, and why Harley came up with his rules of marriage and the policies of radical honesty and Policy of Joint Agreement.

4. Learn to be consistent in your thinking. You started this thread because you felt we/I was suggesting that your H divorce you, and you have clearly indicated that you will not work on the marriage, and find it sufficient to blame only him for the mess the marriage is in. Further you state,
I realize you are frustrated, but you must realize that you are still in the affair right? You mentioned
It is unlikely anything good will come for your marriage or your life while you are having an affair. So even if YOU plan to divorce your H get OM out of your life and work on your issues, so that you can emerge from this with a lot less baggage than you are carrying right now.

I have a lot more to offer you, but really if you are in the affair, the best and ONLY pertinent advice is to start by ending the affair. Then we can discuss how to heal you, and hopefully your marriage.

It is your call AAO. It is your life.

God Bless,

JL

I will stick up for myself now b/c I deserve some respect. If you cannot be respectful, then don't bother with advice. I told my H when I was first attracted to the OM and my H fantasized about it during SF for SIX MONTHS before anything physical happened. I BEGGED HIM TO STOP. My H then began wining and dining both of us for weeks until he got me drunk, took us home, and began a game of strip poker and truth or dare and then masturbated while watching us having sex. AGAIN, I TOLD HIM OVER AND OVER TO TAKE ME HOME. At the time, I was drunk,tired and FULL OF LUST AND I DID IT.
It was a year after we reconciled that he casually told me about his stripper ONS. He did not do it in a counseling session. He did it one night at dinner out of the blue. I have not been bouncing around like a ball, going back and forth between the two men. I have made a real effort in this M. I have been to counselors, priests, friends, parents, etc. EVERYONE THAT HAS HEARD THE SITUATION SAYS THAT I HAVE ENDURED EMOTIONAL ABUSE OVER A VERY EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME. I DONT OWE MY H SEX AND I DONT EXPECT FLOWERS. MY H HAS MANIPULATED ME AND SO MANY PEOPLE IN HIS LIFE. HE HAS USED ME AS A SEX OBJECT IN NUMEROUS WAYS. EVERYTIME WE HAVE HAD SF, HE WANTS TO TALK DIRTY. HE TRIES TO DICTATE WHAT I WEAR CONSTANTLY--SHORT SKIRTS, NO BRA ETC. I AM NOT GOING TO LET IT HAPPEN ANYMORE. I HAVE GOTTEN EVERYTHING INTO MY HEAD THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED, AND I AM SORRY, BUT I HAVE LISTED MANY OF MY OWN FAULTS AND SHORTCOMINGS. MY H HAS CALLED HIMSELF A "REFORMED SEX ADDICT" DOES HE SOUND REFORMED? MY H PLANTED A SEED AND WE WILL ALL REAP WHAT HE HAS SOWN IN OUR FAMILY.
Also, it was one OM. I am not having an A, and my H filed for D.

You did not answer my questions. Please do so. I really don't care for your rationalization or reasons right now. I want to know what your goals are and what your plans are to reach those goals. As for your H, he has his own decisions to make and life to lead.

You asked for advice, then listen to it. First piece of advice is quit defending yourself because frankly I have no interest in attacking you, but I am going to attack your thinking each and every time you post stuff that is not relavent to the question of what you plan for your future is and how we may help that.

Do you understand me? I surely hope so.

God Bless,

JL

AAO,
I really hate jumping in here, but I just wanted to tell you that you'll be ok. Unlike others here, I can readily admit that I have made mistakes in my marriage. The BS's here seem to have a hard time conceding that they actually have anything to do with problems in their marriages. I understand how you feel. I was a good wife. A darn good one. Totally devoted to this man.. these kids.. this life. What some BS's fail to realize is that they CAN kill a relationship. They like to think that just because they didn't end up in someone's bed, that that makes them blameless. That simply is not true in some cases. Some affairs are not the CAUSE of the destruction.. but the RESULT of. No, it's not noble... it's not wise. It's against God's own will. But, then again, we are sinners by nature. Even the BS's. All we can do is ask for forgiveness from Our Lord. The acceptance of strangers is unneccessary. If your husband is so wishy-washy that he takes the advice of unknowns in determining the course of his life, then he seems as weak. You don't let names on a board decide if your life is worthy. If there is hope or want in your heart. If you believe and have forgiveness. Only he can decide that. Hopefully, he'll stop and ask himself these questions instead of strangers. If you need to talk, get in touch.

Nor'

AAO,

It looks like officially your marriage is about to end. Perhaps its for the best since it looks like BOTH of you, at this moment in time, are not emotionally healthy individuals. I sincerely hope that BOTH of you do eventually become healthy but that is a choice that each one of you must make on your own.


Nor,

You are obviously a new member, so your ignorance of the BS is understandable. FYI, one of the BS's mantra here is:

'A WS is solely responsible for the choice to have an affair but BOTH BS and WS are EQUALLY responsible for the state of the marriage'

It may serve you well to do some more reading of these forums, for you may learn something that just might cause you to think first before issuing false blanket statements.

TMCM

TMCM,
Unfortunately, I am not new here. I've been reading this site for over 2 years. I had trouble signing on with my other nic, so I simply created this new one.
Secondly, I am not ignorant. I have been here and read almost everything that is on the site.
I absolutely agree that the decision to have the affair IS a choice. Although I see that it is supposed to be one of the "mantra" of the site, I don't believe that some will even take responsibility for the decay of the marriage. You will, I'm sure, notice that I say SOME. As I did in my previous post.
When a WS comes to this site to look for guidance, that is what they are needing. Perhaps they are on the fence as to whether to leave their marriage or not. Or it could be that they are struggling with such despair and depression that suicidal thoughts are a reality. In case that is the climate behind their posts, wouldn't it be wise to offer a hand of friendship? To talk to them of forgiveness and re-dedication of their marriages? I have seen some run off this site due to very negative replies to their queries. Or told that yes, a divorce would be the answer. What if these WS's are on the edge? Burdened by their grief and guilt? Are we not pushing them away?
You have no idea who I am, yet you chose to jump on my "ignorance". Christian Marriage Building? Is that what you call it? I believe smugness might just be a sin, as well. Lest we believe we are better than our brother.

AAO,

You are being hit with some tough posts by JL and TMCM, but that is good. You stay here and keep battling it out, keep talking and processing as this is a step in what could be a very positive process of growth for you. And of healing.

I am a woman, and I worked in some pretty racy bars during my late teens and twenties. I could have been and was up to a point a lot like you. Letting the men in my life define me, as Pep has pointed out.

What it took for me to change my life was the pain, I simply could not stand the pain anymore. I came back to my parents town, found a repectable job and asked my dad for a down payment on a little house. He agreed, and so began my new life out of the bars. I still made very bad choices in men so suffered more because I still really didn't get it about making my own choices which were good for me and about boundaries.

Mel told me when I first came here I didn't know what was appropriate, and she was right.

So, here I still am, still learning and still growing.

It's a long process AAO, but you are beginning it. So there is lots of hope for you.

I just wanted to say so many here are hoping to be supportive of you in your journey towards wholeness and productivity. So let them and take all the advice/help you can get. Even and especially the hard stuff, like you are getting from JL. You are very lucky to have all these posters talking to you, I wish I had that when I was your age and trying to fumble through on my own.

Don't run away...be tough, and stick around. And answer the hard questions as best you can. There are no right/wrong answers AAO, only your answers. So keep please keep talking.

Great advice from Weaver....

"Don't run away...be tough, and stick around. And answer the hard questions as best you can. There are no right/wrong answers AAO, only your answers. So keep please keep talking."

Keep talking as many are listening.

Mr. G

I do plan on staying here and talking things out. Why? Because I want to be a better person. Believe me, I don't like this place that who I have been has gotten me to.(I am such a grammar freak and that was a horrible sentence, I know)
I want people to be tough and to "call me out" on unhealthy thinking. I wish the "experienced" guys had seen through my H's junk. He did have one short thread where it started to go somewhere....Anyway, he has filed for a D, and it will probably be very ugly. I am choosing to improve myself and to be happy regardless of what happens.
Thank you to those with kind, understanding words. I NEED those too in order to be strong to stay here. I think that what many do not understand about WS is that many times they turn to someone else out of UTTER HOPELESSNESS IN THEIR MARRIAGE. Frankly, unless my H comes to me with an honest belief that he has continued to wrong me and he wants to change, then the M is hopeless. YOu see, I already did that 2 months ago. I have done it many times to a lesser degree I guess, but this time I made some real obvious choices that I wanted to have NC. I gave him some reason to hope, but he has given me none.
I guess I just do not understand JL's question about a plan. I have listed many things that I plan to do. Can you help me out with that? I DO FEEL LUCKY TO HAVE SO MANY POSTERS RESPOND HERE.

This may be true. Out of UTTER HOPELESSNESS I turned to drugs and alcohol. Just like many who have affairs, I had sick thinking and didn't have coping skills. I did that. That my wife had an affair is not an excuse. That she made my life a living hell is not an excuse. IT WAS ME. Even if she would have been the one supplying my beer, I WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONE DRINKING IT. That's one of the points that many try to get across. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

To get healthy and free from my lover had nothing to do with anybody but me. My thinking had to shift to making a fearless inventory of myself and working on my behaviors and my character traits, so that I don't have to make bad choices again.

JL, has a lot to offer and is offering it freely. Please take the time to explore with him and others here. Who knows you might just become a better person, I DID.

Hugz, Thoughts, & Prayerz.

AAO,

Hello, how are you doing? I hope you feel like reading a bit as I have I few things to say.

To start this off I would say that sometimes I don’t think that this place is very safe for some WS/FWS. The site is dominated by BS, there is a lot of pain here and sometimes it becomes misdirected. Also consider that noone here is an expert in marriage counseling, some have experience with infidelity (some have even been on both sides WS and BS), others just like to hear themselves pontificate. There is a fair amount of moralizing and judging that takes place in these forums, just like the rest of society. Norexp pointed out, and I am inclined to agree that some BS seem to think that because they didn’t bed someone out of wedlock, they are moral and their previous bad behavior towards their spouse doesn’t matter. I disagree with this line of reasoning. Bad behavior does matter and being abused can make the decision to escape into an affair much more attractive. But, and this is the big but, bad behavior on your husband’s part doesn’t excuse bad behavior on yours. Get it? Your husband didn’t put a gun to your head and force you to have sex with the OM. The first time could be debatable, but you continued the affair for years. That was your decision and you own it. You need to admit to yourself that you continued the affair because you wanted to, you didn’t do it because your husband was a [censored], you did it because you got something from it and you enjoyed it. You and your husband both did some really crappy things and you each own your own behaviors. Who did worse? That is not a question for us to answer, it is for your God.

When JL asks you for your plan there really isn’t an ulterior motive. It really is a simple question. What are you going to do today? Tomorrow? Are you going to try to save this marriage? Are you making plans for divorce? I know you answered some of these questions, but a systematic plan will be helpful; especially when you are dealing with a pending divorce. We do not do our best thinking when we are stressed. Write down a plan of action when you are calm and modify it when necessary.

Sometimes divorce is the rational answer. The level of chaos in your marriage and how this chaos is affecting your children is a very real issue. Divorce hurts children, make no mistake. Unmitigated chaos hurts children too.

I’ve made some really dumb decisions in my life. Having an affair was one of many. The main difference between you and I at this point in our lives is that I have taken responsibility for my decisions. You haven’t yet, you’re still justifying your decisions. You don’t need to justify them, you just have to accept that the decisions were yours and yours alone. I think you eventually will come to this conclusion. I know it has taken me a long time to get there.

Peace,

CN

comfortably numb, was that you posting as NorExp? This is so weird, but when I read his/her posts earlier this morning, I immediately thought of you because your writing styles - and attitudes - are THE SAME!

Imagine my surprise when 10 minutes later you posted on this thread! What a coincidence!

**************

What are you trying to insinusate?

I don't hide behind alias.

aao...

I think what justlearning and pep are driving at is quit defining your actions and posts through the actions of your husband...

as a nursing supervisor I can walk on a unit and get the tone of the unit within seconds...I can spot an overwhelmed nurse either in real chaos out of their control or sometimes of their own poor organizational and prioritizing...

When new to my role i would ask them..
what can I do to help....

and all I got back was litany of things gone awry..
list of tasks that aren't getting done...
they couldn't give me anything concrete....

so I quit asking that question...
I changed my approach..
and now I say..

Hey nursie nurse....
would it help you if I took these orders off for you
would it help you if I gave some of the your 8:00 meds...

I pick the task....

you sound overwhelmed...
unable to see the details of what you can do to get in control...

even your answer to what your plan is...

To find you soul..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
that's a good answer...but there ain't no one here that can help you do that...
and quite honestly its even too nebulous for you to undertake...
and so you continue to flounder..

you gotta go basic
you gotta go simple...

you gotta find
tasks
actions and
specific reachable goals....

even inspite of everything and anything your husband does or does not do...

you have to stand on solid ground....
you are like a colleague in crisis...
justlearning wants to know what TASK can he help you with...


back for more gotta run.......

ARK

I wasn't "insinuating" anything, I was outright asking if that was you posting as NorExp. I just thought it was an amazing coincidence that I immediately thought of YOU when I read it! So imagine my surprise when you posted 10 minutes later!

No need to get nasty and defensive, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />