Hi, hope there is some insight here...

I have a question about exposing WSO's office affair to OW H. I don't think it would be the right thing for me to do. I'm not comfortable about it and we're working out legal issues. I've read that someone always seems to know, but so far, that only someone seems to be me.

What can I/should I do?

Thanks for being here, Sally

Sally,
Exposing the affair is part of a larger strategy of saving the marriage. Is that what your goal is?

I wonder about that because you say you are working out "legal issues." Does that mean you are divorcing?

If you have made up your mind to divorce, then why bother exposing the affair? At that point its just revenge. What are your motives for exposing?

If you want to ultimately save your marriage, there are many other considerations besides exposing the affair. You need to establish your Plan A behaviours and make your husband aware of your desire to stay married.

Whats your status?

If you were in the other woman's shoes, would you not want to know if your H was having an affair, even if the source was an exW who was married to the OM? Once you have your answer, act accordingly.

TMCM

Do you believe OW's H doesn't know? Are they still married?

Generally, "exposure" as used on this forum refers to what Lexxxxxxxy aluded to as one piece of the strategy to end an affair prior to the end of the marriage. If you didn't do this earlier, you may have missed your chance to implement exposure of this sort.

That said, if the other marriage is still intact or if the other BS is in the dark, a good argument can be made that you have a moral duty to inform the other BS. Not all will agree with this.

Please elaborate on the status of the other family.

Hi all,

Last week, I was confronted with information about his office affair. I was Stunned. Surprised. Nothing seems to cover it. I really had no idea. No one else knew either. No one else still knows with the exception of my best friend who refused to believe it for a few more days. The OW is married, is subordinate to my Ex. They work closely together every day and have for some time. Their emotional involvement has been going on since maybe last August or September? Their sexual affair began... hard to say exactly when.

I confronted him. Plainly, with no screaming fits and he lied. He said I was crazy, that he wasn't seeing anyone. Even when I said I had seen them together he accused me of spying on him, which actually wasn't the case then at all but now I am trying to understand how this all evolved. WSO continued to tell me how wrong I was. I tried talking with his family, not in retribution, but to let them in on what is really going on. Maybe they could have helped him. I worry that he will be fired on an ethics charge. They were not receptive. They were nasty. They accused me of trying to put them in the middle and said they didn't want to hear from me again.

Later ex tells me that his mother did contact him about my call. She had told him how upset it made the family and then when she didn't ask if any of it was true, he chose to tell her that none of waht I said was the truth. He lied to his mother about his affair. We began formal dissolution of our shared interests. Division of assets etc. He is still sending me letters by e-mail. They are very sweet and again, do not show any evidence of his big, BIG LIE.

He insisted on coming over this past weekend to see me and discuss what to do with our house. And here is where it is.

Based on what I saw, them together - he's very much in love with her right now. He has been for a while and broke off our engagement so that he could pursue his true happiness with her. I can't fight that and I'm not trying. I do love him and want him to find happiness. I'd like to repair our relationship and have us be happy together but I don't see much hope of that based on his actions, what he is saying and more importantly what he isn't saying. But I would be willing to try nonetheless.

She is married. I guess she isn't ready to leave her marriage yet for him. Her husband doesn't know. My ex. is waiting until that time when they can be together officially and they are sneaking around, taking trips together, cancelling business trips and then meeting instead outside of the workplace. It's bad stuff. His work is already suffering.

Well, that's about it. I would like to see how things unfold with his A out in the open instead of secret... In the interim, we're still arguing/discussing our house and other things that would be divided... I don't want to make him so angry that I lose him completely and wind up homeless in the bargain so that is a main reason for not calling to talk with OW H...

Thanks for your patience. Any wisdom will be helpful... I am willing to move on instead of resolving this, but my preference is to reconcile. I am willing to put in time, effort and love and respect either way... Either way I am examining myself, really trying to be accountable for my actions, feelings and well-being and that process is a good so far.

Sally

Sally - you are the most powerful woman on the planet.

What do YOU want from this relationship?

What is his current attitude regarding how to split your property? Want to see it change? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Without a doubt, you should blow the lid on this sordid situation. You'll be doing everyone a favor. Best way to do it is to inform OW's husband with solid evidence. What kind of evidence to you have?

Before proceeding with specific advice, you need to tell us what you want. You're not married, so some advice will come easy, but because you share property you're just as good as married from a financial standpoint.

Your relationship is recoverable. Sounds like a very typical garden variety affair. Tell me if I'm right - he's said, "I love you. but I'm not "in love" with you". We've heard it all before.

So, you are the most powerful woman on the planet because you have the power to blow his fantasy wide open and send her home. The ethical issue at the workplace is especially dicey, depending on the employer.

Please continue reading here and learn all you can before making any further decisions.

See the thread, "Affair Exposure 101" that I just bumped up for you.

****** deleted by Sally ******

Sally - you sound "normal" to me.

Everything you describe and say is "normal" for a betrayed spouse. Even though you're not married, think of your self as a betrayed spouse and follow the principles here of a betrayed spouse. All applicable to your sitch.

Since you want to restore your relationship, please obtain a copy of Surviving An Affair, by Harley - available from the bookstore on this site and from just about any on-line bookseller. Read up on this site about Plan A. In your interaction with him, avoid all negative communications: disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, demands.

Now the really tough part. Exposure. If you want to try to salvage your relationship, you HAVE to expose the affair to OW's H. This is the most important and likely most effective thing you can do. Just call him and be prepared to show him your evidence. DO NOT tell your "spouse" that you're going to do this and DO NOT threaten to do it. Just do it. Are you close to any of his family? If so, expose to any of them who likely would not approve. You have to include the fact that he's messing with a married woman. Can you do this?

WAT

Yes, bought it and re-reading. Not sure I understand all of it. I'm confused by Plan A. I think I'm heading in the right direction but hard to know. Plan B less difficult to understand. WSO asked to read the other Harley books I had (before I had reason to buy Surviving...) so he took them with and I ordered new ones. I found LoveBusters to be a HUGE help for me.

I approached WSO's family already. They would be horrified if they had only believed me. Or maybe they don't really care and their attitudes toward infidelity are just for show and other people? Regardless, they didn't believe me. Those people who always told me how much they loved me were pretty nasty. They accused me of making up stories because he loves me so much and would never... Then they wanted to know if I had been cheating on him. I assured them truthfully that I've never looked in anyone else's direction. After saying some more unpleasant stuff, they hung up.

The friends are off limits -- he works with several of them. In essence that would be like exposing him at the workplace and I would rather be constructive and not destructive.

After losing HIM, my biggest fear is of WSO seeking retribution by way of selling our house out from under me.

Otherwise, I think I can make a call to OW H, I could probably try and figure out some way to reach him, although I do not know him personally. We've never met. I don't know where he lives. The risk is kind of hefty and this is my only home in the world.

Not sure I should be the person making this call or that exposing should be up to me until I am safe in living sitch. But I am listening if there are other thoughts on this. I in no way have answers. Just some thoughts...

Sally

Are you not part owner? Are you both on the deed? What legal arrangements are you in the process of negotiating?

By WSO to you mean WS? wayward spouse? Yea, alphabet soup around here........

WAT

I would think WSO = Wayward Significant Other

Duh - I bet you're right, Trix. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

WAT
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Kix are for Trids!

WSO - wayward significant other. Calling myself spouse seemed bullsh*tty? Yeah we were engaged and using our new hyphenated name but not married by law yet. So spouse isn't a truth right? But if it doesn't offend I'll try not to make up my own abbreviations. :-)

We are not both on the deed although we both share in the investment. It's all documented; I'm not worried that he is trying to cheat me. Don't think he's worried I'm trying to nail him. We're working out a legal agreement so that we're each protected as we dissolve shared holdings.

It's something we both agree is fair and necessary and so far we're treading through dividing our assets without too much argument. We aren't in total agreement yet about some things, the big one is the house I'm living in. He wants to sell now and in return give me all of the profit. I want to wait, take my time to decide intelligently for myself, and later split any profit evenly.

Anyway, we don't agree yet. We're brainstorming. He's getting some pressure from his lover (I infer from some bizarre comments he made) Ex isn't a total jerk and we're both really trying. But I have NO DOUBT he would exact revenge if I blew his happy new set-up. Ever play any organized sports where you try to crush your opposition? Crush goes Sally. OH! It's a metaphor -- he would never, ever hurt me physically!

Even though he is still lying about his affair to me and everyone else since I confronted him last week, I got a vibe like he knows that I really do know about his A with OW and I'm not just guessing. So maybe house is his/their ransom? Maybe he is angry at me for questioning him? It's a rotten way to think but possible.

Wordy Sally :-)

I prefer reading your truth as WSO or WBF instead of WS(spouse). Wasn't that difficult an abrev...sometimes it may take a minute but most will get it.

Many thanks Trix! I have a major thing about lying.

Sally

Sometimes, the fog has its advantages.

Sally - how much difference in $$ are you talking about? Sorry to be so brash, but there can be a cost benefit analysis to apply here. But you know this.

A prevalent trait among betrayed folks is being naive. Do not underestimate the deviousness of a liar and a cheater. You're not worried he's trying to cheat you? Sweetie, he already has!!

Can you play hardball? Do you want the WHOLE house? Do you think you have a reasonable chance at salvaging this relationship? How old are you?

Sally - there's method to my madness. You are in the driver's seat here. The most powerful woman, remember? He has lied and cheated you. He's messing with a married woman. He's probably engaged in legal sexual harassment in the work place. Any co-worker staking a third party sexual harassment claim against him tomorrow can have his butt on the street. You're not married and you have no children with him.

Do you see what I'm saying? Yes, you have a chance at salvaging this relationship. You also could be the most naive woman on the planet. Please give this some serious thought.

WAT

Sally,

I haven't posted to you or seen you here before today. I am a BS who "found" this board early on in my wife's first affair. And the board told me to expose the affair (WAT included). And I didn't.

Why?

Didn't want to make my wife mad. Bottom line. Thought the chance at saving the marriage was worth compromising my own set principles of right and wrong.

Know what it got me? Continued returns to the OM. And eventually ANOTHER affair. And I live with the fact that I chickened out on my own morals.

I eventually told, but it was later, and didn't make any difference.

If you are holding out because you feel that it might ruin your chances of reconciliation, ask yourself these questions.

1 - Do you WANT to reconcile with someone who doesn't love you for who YOU are? Which, BTW, INCLUDES your moral standards, which kept you faithful to him.

2 - YOU are ready to forgive his infidelity. Is forgiving you for telling the truth such a big thing for HIM to do? I mean, really, what other transgression do you "not mention?"

Search your heart. If you are doing this out of spite, it is the WRONG reason. But if you are exposing because you feel it is WRONG. Well then, it is the right reason. Pretend your WSO was your brother. If your brother was cheating on his wife, would you tell her? Would you tell the OMW? Or would the blood tie be strong enough to compromise your morals?

Yes. You run the risk of HIS resentment for you telling ending your relationship. But - do you WANT that in a relationship? What if he started dealing drugs? Or was robbing banks? If it is wrong in your mind, it is wrong. You gotta see who you like in the mirror.

I once thought it was worth anything to make it work.

It isn't.

NCWalker

Hey, I'm going to respond to some of these questions/comments separately...

Without being too explicit - value now is roughly double original price. For smaller properties the market has risen even more. (And our cot is fairly modest.) So even if I took all of the profit and added it my funds, I still wouldn't be able to cover a new mortgage on my own. Yes, costs are that high.

It's in my better interest to be housed over making a buck right now, since housing is the greater need, not $$. We have no kids but share custody of two large dogs. WSO was/is? my sole family. I'd like to be able to keep my dogs.

Renting is not a fair alternative IMHO, because I gave up a home to make a new one with this guy, don't think I deserve to be penalized for that by being more reduced in my standard of living now, than before we got together. I realize that is one woman's opinion.

Technically speaking, the house was my engagement gift from him - his bond. He acknowledged this as recently as Saturday. It's well known. He also candidly stated that he is going back on his promise Saturday. Do I prefer to keep the property in the best of all possible worlds - well yes. Am I amenable to other options for the sake of security - YES.

Currently we have no agreement and I'm OK with the limbo that entails. Neither of us loses money by waiting certainly, so I feel no need to push anything along more quickly to suit him. Feel free to spell things out for me if I'm being too _________ fill in the blank y'all. I can take healthy criticism.

Point taken.

Yes, yes. Answered above. Willing to compromise not because I am naive or self-sacrificing, just trying to be accountable for my actions. If my only alternative to demanding everything is homelessness, well sign me up for everything because I have no need to suffer genteelly. If there is room to meet in between I can negotiate without bitterness or financial ruin.

37. He's 38. I honestly don't know if I have a reasonable chance to salvage. His heart is hardened. He is lying so much that it's hard to guess. He is shy of cake-eating, but often tells me about his loneliness.

He is like a little child needing a homey taste. He actually asked were there any of my special cookies on Saturday. He has traveled several hours on different occasions to visit here for such things as paprika!, store-bought cookies and duraflame log fires.

Maybe he is playing me? Maybe he needs to visit a grocery store instead of visiting me?

I could just be the most naive woman on the planet! :-) I can be a little slow on the uptake as well. Are you asking if I think it's wise to make my life with this man when there is a clear release from my commitment now? Is this where MY destiny should be? Am I being a silly girl?

Not sure. It bothers me that he lies so well and so easily to everybody, not just me, for possibly the whole time we've known each other? That's a biggie all right. Does that make him very different from a lot of other men? Or women for that matter? That's the naivete asking because I don't know.

I've been blessed to know many wonderful people at different times during my life. They've had flaws. I have my fair share of flaws too. Can we weigh the flaws against each other and find balance? Should we? Have I evolved as a human during the time I've been with this man? Have I stagnated? Failed to progress? I'd have to say that net, I've evolved and progressed.

Am I speaking to your unspoken questions WAT? I really can be incredibly obtuse sometimes? :-)

Sally

Hmmn, is this a second nay vote? NCWalker answered...

There are standards I'm not willing to compromise. For example, if does not admit the truth about his affair or other lies (that I know about) that's a deal-breaker for me right there.
The big stuff for me keeps circling around his lying. I only just discovered that he has a tobacco addiction. I'm your basic scientific type, I'm inquisitive, I have a nose, I have taste buds. I NEVER knew. When I asked him about the tobacco he did admit it with difficulty. When I asked how I never knew his response was that he hid it. That's some good hidin'! So when I say he's probably lying about things I don't know he's lying about, I'm not being coy. I just figure there's more... and I don't know what.

As far as my transgressions? Well, probably the worst is that I can be a judgmental pain in the [censored]! I could make a list of my shortcomings that will take us into next year.

I'm not a spiteful person. I don't have strength of will for that. My strength is different. If the cheater was my brother, I wouldn't tell, I'd march him out and make HIM tell while I bore witness. I was raised with one big self-governing philosophy: The truth is always better than a lie. I take it seriously still, probably far too seriously, but it's amazing how much in life that covers!

I'm happy and at peace when I love. I have lots of it and empathy and forgiveness. Stingy loving hurts me even to see it. It's a flaw of sorts. It's how I've been since I was a baby. (The family liked to document things so I've read all about it.) I can forgive while being aware of Ex's capacity for harmful behavior and protect myself (and others?). But when I feel there is forgiveness in me, I just forgive. I may not mention it to anyone. But in me, I know.

Now that was personal post!
Sally

YES. It does. Me for one. Want a list? There are a bunch of honest men on this board. Go to a "Promise Keepers" meeting at your local church. There are a bunch of honest men there. Why do people lie? Simple. They feel their own needs far exceed those around them.

Does that implicitly mean cut him loose? No. But it is an indicator of what you are facing. Time to look at your boundaries darlin'. Time to decide exactly what you will and will not put up with. Tell him. He either plays nice, or finds someone else to play with. Watch some small children play. There are certain transgressions that are "allowed" because they are little. These change as kids grow and mature. The same applies to adults. In a given situation, there are things that are acceptable.

Don't believe me? What if I sexually harrased you in the workplace? That is wrong. But what if you worked in a strip club? See what I mean? What WERE the boundaries when you started this relationship? Does HE know them? At the very least, you owe him a clear definition of what flies with you and what does not. At that point, one of 3 things will happen:

1 - He complies. If he REALLY loves you AND he is fully functioning, he will.
2 - He does not, but works towards it. This is the "gray" one. How much are YOU willing to put up with? Is the reward for getting him through these troubled times worth it? How about your faith and morals? What do they say in a situation like this? This is where you read all the posts here and define YOUR boundaries.
3 - He does not, and does not care. Cut him loose, if this is the case. Too selfish. Unless YOU are fond of destructive relationships, you need to move on.





Absolutely not. That implies an expectation based on something rendered. This is not a game of trading. You are to be the best companion to him that you can be, but that in no way guarantees or implies anything in return.

But that also doesn't mean you suck up a huge load of crapola either.

You be the best you can be for YOU. Because YOU have to live with yourself. If he is "healthy," he should be doing the same. Not perfect, who is? But putting your needs ahead of his. Look on this site for

The Rule of Protection
The Rule of Care
The Policy of Joint Aggreement
The Policy of Radical Honesty

That is a good litmus test. If he isn't working towards those things, you need to honestly ask how long you are willing to wait.

One should give with no EXPECTATION of receiving. But one should be given TO also. And when that starts lacking, then resentment builds. At that point, a downward spiral starts that is hard to get out of. Sadly, where I am personally at right now.

In brief - We don't generally lie "because we are guys." Only guys who are weak in character chronically lie. And there are no scales, no tit for tat. You give your best because that is HIS due. He SHOULD reciprocate. If he doesn't, measure against your tolerance and faith. Act accordingly. But don't hold it over his head. VERY hard to do (I know, I fail at that one frequently).

Hope that helps. NCW