Today is a little better bit better than yesterday. No exposure news to share - I'm still wondering when it will come out. When. When. Trying to not think about it - not talk about it.

WAT, the dark humor definitely isn't lost on me. When he comes out with zingers, sometimes I do chuckle. Because the situation is crazy and funny and not at all funny.

Meanwhile, WSO stopped writing me nightly. Phone calls also stopped. I worried so I rang him today and we had a very brief chat. He said he was very stressed, having a tough time at work. He said it was good to hear my voice. We agreed to catch up in a week or two to discuss house stuff.

The conversation was really very warm and sweet.

Thanks all for keeping me sane this week. I'm OK. Not sad. My expectation of his wanting to try again isn't high. My fantasy life is very active, and there, we always take a chance at reconciliation. But in this reality, he seems to be very happy as is. I'll keep on improving me because I need it. And that is still a Plan A of sorts. Yes?

Sally

The A is exposed. OW H knows. WSO and OW are also exposed at office. WSO told me he is uncomfortable at work and unsure of his future there but no details beyond that. Long night Sunday night. Long night last night.

Everything is a jumble. My hands are still shaking. So many things were said in the past couple of days... Much of it shook me and saddened me. I think because I already knew he'd been lying about A, I was mostly just numb as he admitted the PA to me Sun. night.

There was a full hour of raging and yelling about how he thought he knew me but he never knew I was so mean and so hurtful. He never thought I was capable of anything but love and how he was stupid to ever love me when I betrayed him. And mostly I cried and listened.

He told me how his family told him I'm a stalker and mentally imbalanced because of the one visit to him as a surprise (how I knew about A in the first place, not the other way around) and because I was so upset and cried the one time I reached out to talk to them about A afterward.

WSO said his family are concerned for his safety. That they consider me to be unstable and dangerous and even though he stood up for me, they convinced him I'm crazy and that is when he wanted to punish me by taking away the house -- because in this representation he was angry that I caused his family so much worry and discomfort.

His (WSOs) father consulted their attorneys to find out everyone's legal rights and apparently the attorneys told them I had legal rights at the very least to our house and now SWO wants to give me even more $$. ||sigh|| But not the house. I kept my mouth shut. (No DJs aloud allowed) Gee, WSO is 38 years old, a grown man, His parents stepped in without even consulting him. Again, I keep learning about their family dynamic.

He insisted that there is no other choice he can make. We have to legally finalize our separation and settlement. He feels pressured to "dispose of any legal obligations we have to each other as quickly as possible so that he can move forward with his life."

I know stressful times often see people behaving their worst but I am stunned at this behavior and input from his family. After so many years of demonstrating my love and loyalty I'm being slandered and misrepresented as an insane, dangerous woman. They are case-building against me.

Hearing this hurt me inside as much as discovering the PA with OW. Eventually after listening to variations of this stuff for a while, I asked SWO if he'd told his family yet about A. He admitted he hadn't and his tone of voice and the whole tone of the conversation shifted a little.

Again, he said he doesn't want any reason for us to have to be in contact with each other ever again once we're settled legally. This is hurting him too much. Talking to me is hurting him too much. He stopped talking and I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. I was thinking did HE just plan B ME? I wouldn't - couldn't respond to that.

When I didn't say anything for what seemed like a long time but must have been less than a minute. He started talking some more saying if/when we see start seeing each other in the future we'll know we would be choosing to build a new relationship and not acting out of a sense of obligation.


And then -- he asked me what I wanted. Not what do I want from him -- he asked me WAT's question -- what does Sally want?


I started by saying that I wanted not to fight -- wanted not to fight him and I took a deep breath and said I wanted for us to get some counseling together. He wanted to know to what end? I said I didn't know how to answer that right now because the situation is confusing.

I said I thought it would help us deal with our current mess and maybe we could just see if there's anything to that... and he said he thought it was a good idea because he didn't want to keep making the same mistakes [though I understood that to mean - with someone else] and he thought that our going to counseling together would help us grow...

We talked. We talked for hours. We took a break. He sent me a letter, he said he would give counseling a try if I wanted to. We talked again for a couple more hours. He thought maybe I'd be happy to know that A with OW was over - for good. That it wasn't good for him... He insisted I understand this, repeated it often and offered to put it in writing.

He asked me if I could forgive him for lying to me. He said he was not going to keep making excuses. He said he is going to continue his spiritual renewal by telling his family and friends the truth about the A.

Outside of the few meaningful bits of shared information it all seems like a lot of ambiguous talk to me. My poor wasted heart wants to believe, but the rest of me thinks after all of the lying and horrible words this is just manipulation. I have so little faith in what he says and I shouldn't have much...

You all know I did start sniffing around last week and so I know WSO and OW are still carrying on with each other despite his words. At the very least the EA continues and I have doubt about the PA being over.

What now? Where do I go from here and how? Is it time for a new MB Infidelity GQll thread?

Sally

Bravo ! * claps * !

Your partners' spiteful response is absolutely by the book.

You must stay calm, more distant and focussed now. He will writhe like a skewered snake in his own shame, misery, guilt and self-hatred.

Ignore almost everything he says for a while, watch only what he DOES.

Detach from the chaos. Focus on living a fun life. be attractive and consitent.

You did well. VERY well !

* claps again !*

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sally - ditto Bob. All straight from the WS script. You are the scourge of the earth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


If I understand your description correctly, his family is vilifying you because they don't believe the affair, huh?

Please replay for us any more exposure info you provided them.

Remember, blood is thicker than mud and some families (like my WS's) rally 'round the WS because either they don't believe the affair evidence or they do believe the justifications the WS provides for it.

Yes, the true substance of folks gets revealed in times like these.

Good job.

Now detach and let time work its wonders.

More $$, huh? See? You ARE the most powerful woman on his planet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Deep breaths. Long, slow, deep breaths. In. Out.

Hi Wat and bOb, I'm mush! :-) Thanks for your wisdom.

I've been amazingly calm and quiet when I've talked with WSO. My body was shaking and still there was a well of calm. He's a mess. I don't like that he suffers, but at the same time, it's hard to feel sorry for him. I'm very relieved that I'm not feeling anger - yet?? Anger doesn't work for me.

No, WSOs family don't know about the A. They didn't believe me when I told them. There wasn't very much discussion to relate. They didn't want to talk to me. They hung up the phone on me. I let it go with them. Quite truthfully, I was very sorry for being the vehicle delivering unpleasant news to them but I chose to try and I'm not sorry for that.

WSO related that in follow-up conversations with them he lied. His story was that he never had cheated on me. He wasn't having an A. He wasn't even dating anyone. Only that I'd driven to his condo and had spied him socializing with a co-worker. He said I was jealous and wasn't facing reality about our split but there was nothing to tell, he wasn't seeing anyone let alone a married woman. He said I'd jumped to conclusions and He was sorry I up set them...

As far as I know, he still hasn't told his family or personal friends the truth yet, despite his vow to start over with them all by telling them the truth. Perhaps he's started. I didn't have a good opportunity to ask yesterday without causing angst so I didn't. He didn't offer any news of his telling them.

Sunday night he tried to say that he stuck up for me and said I wasn't unstable, then he argued to me that he thought that my calling them to try and involve his family was crazy and that he would never see it any other way. And of course crazy was the exact word he said to me when I confronted him directly two weeks ago. You're crazy. I've never ever cheated on you... And DUH! He still hasn't told them the truth. His point being that the truth doesn't matter because I acted like a crazy person.

After we talked I was slightly uneasy, feeling not so very safe in my little house. I have the dogs and they're quite massive, but it's a small, antique cottage: very romantic and prone to crumbling. Hmnnn. Like my relationship? Well, anyone could get in. And the dogs, if you gave them biscuits they'd sit you down and offer tea... SWO wasn't trying to intimidate me. He was angry but I didn't think he was threatening me. Perhaps he was and I am that obtuse? The red flare was up all the same and I'm mindful of it. Yesterday night was calmer but I still haven't slept since Saturday.

So detach huh? Ok. We did speak again and trade some letters. In the midst of it all I'm asked to be nicey wifey -- schedule the landscapers and so forth. OK. I can do that. Plan A right? "Sally smiled at him." I'm not initiating contact with him. But what exactly do I do when he contacts me? I've been trying to be my sweet self, though edited down I promise! :-)

We'll, and I mean I, will keep moving forward, sprucing things up here, packing up and preparing to leave. So far he is quite intent on selling and I don't have the means or will to argue it in court. That leaves me dogless and renting but with a lot of cash in the bank. Oh yes I have a keen sense of the ridiculous. WSO offered to help me find a place. He offered so sincerely and sweetly and he will take the dogs because "won't I feel better knowing they are living with him and not strangers?"


I haven't said/written anything in response to his confession and request for forgiveness. Is it wrong to want him to expiate? Isn't that what a penitent man does? Am I being not sweet and understanding enough by not jumping into that muck with him yet?


What can/should I be doing differently? I'll need some spelling out -- I'm just not sure I have good instincts about how much or how little or when or how to at all.

What should I be expecting or alert to in terms of behavior? His behavior and mine - Changes good or bad, danger areas, places where I'm likely to fall?? Effective phrases? I'm open to all thoughts.


Sally

Sally - first, what's the status of working out your legal issues?


I have a pretty good idea of what he's going to continue to do: lie to you, his family, his friends, and to himself.

Do not for a moment believe that he will ever admit an affair to his family. He will continue to portray you as a stalker and a crazy woman. He HAS to. He will convince himself that he isn't having an affair, or otherwise betrayed you.

I have much less confidence in what I can predict of your behavior because you're not a betrayer, and thus are much less predictable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Your next move may come down to implementing Plan B as soon as the legal stuff is complete. In the meantime, don't do anything to upset the legal settlement. Get this in the bag, then you can decide how much more you want to try to salvage. The process of resolving this stuff may reveal things that influence your eventual goal.

WAT

Hi ... I have a difference of opinion to offer, and thought now was as good a time as any.

Here's my bias.
I've been married 24 years. We've been recovered from my H's EA/PA for 9 years now.

BEFORE ALL THAT .... I was in a 14-year relationship marked by repeated infidelity. We lived together. We had pets together. We were engaged, then not, then engaged again ... etc. We never got married.

Here is my bias. I doubt that this is his first affair. Just the first one you know about. He is apparently an excellent and skilled liar and manipulator (the emails to you are very manipulative). He has no qualms about lying to his family ... this is not a good sign. His family is not as interested in the truth as they are interested in making the appearances of goodness. Not a good sign.

I know you are still very much in love with the man you thought you knew. (I had 14 years, remember, I know from which I speak) However, I bet the man you desire to reconcile with does not actually exist.

I usually say this to any unmarried betrayed partners who are not bound by shared children .... This is your pre-vow evidence that this person is NOT the person for you.

Invest no more of your heart in him.

It is time to heal yourself.

When shopping for a future mate, I say to you

BE PARTICULAR

choose carefully

A woman who is needy makes poor choices.

My overall impression of you is this ... you are actually better than your relationship. You are highly intelligent. This broken relationship is very un balanced. You are the stronger of the two.

However, I feel fairly certain my input is not what you had hoped for, but there it is.

You marry this man "as is" ... he is capable of this betrayal .... and this disallows any serious surprise on your part if he cheats and lies to you in the future.

Sincerely, I admire you, and yet I fear for your future .... coz this is crazy-making and you should not accept this as acceptable pre-marital standards.

Pep

Hey WAT, we're at ground zero.


It's all talk so far. Directly to each other and not through lawyers. We haven’t written anything out. I’m wary of even writing about legal stuff by e-mail. Not paranoid per se, just trying to be careful especially after Sunday’s talks. Even though we’ve been separated almost three months now, the property stuff only reared its ugly head a week and a half ago after I confronted him about A. For a long time I wanted to settle things like bills and such but he wouldn’t be responsible then… So I did what I could myself and was accepting about the rest.

OK. I don’t like it but I can handle it if that’s where we’re headed.


I read this carefully and I am smiling. :-)

I’ll keep being careful. I’m resigned to giving up the house. I love it but it’s just a house and it’s clear I won’t be able to stay. I don’t intend to be a martyr because renting sucks - we’re just going to have to wait and see.

More ridiculous words – WSO volunteered that he did not share his bed with my dogs and OW together during visit. He meant it too. He wanted me to feel better about the whole A thing. I thanked the universe that he told me that over the phone because it was another snort provoker! What a comic way of expressing loyalty!

Yes, I am still questioning all of this. Do I want to be involved with this family? I'd had some doubts before this mess but they were smoothed over... My eyes are open.

Sally

OK, I suggest you make the division of assets your #1 priority.

This will do two things - secure your share of the property and send the messge to him that you mean business. In the end, if this thing goes north, you have to settle the assets anyway.

What do you think of Pep's response? See also Brit's Brat's thread to you. Two very wise folks.

Pep - you've got mail...........

WAT

WAT and Brat, all over it. I thought Pepperband's post showed good sense. I'll answer for real in a minute...

Sally

Sally,

Pep raises a good point.

There are just some things that are in peoples nature.

When I was a young man, I was trouble. But dishonesty, lack of integrity, etc, were NOT in my general nature.

The things I did, acted out, whatever, were pretty extreme. But INTEGRITY was always there. Like I could not escape it.

I don't know where that comes from. In sociology, there is the whole nature vs. nurture debate. What is carried genetically? What can be learned?

My take on that - I look to my sons. My oldest has UNQUESTIONABLE integrity. I trust him more than most adults. Did I have anything to do with that as a parent? Sure. Some. But I look at my next two sons and I don't see it. I mean, they have integrity, but not like the oldest.

The oldest would rather suffer considerable pain or hardship than compromise his integrity. We just say it is the way he is wired.

Frankly, I think I have done a better job raising the second kid, if not the second AND third. I tease the oldest and tell him he is the "practice kid" on whom I make the mistakes. And in truth, he kind of is.

But integrity? It is like the oldest got an extra helping. I don't think I could quench that in him if I set out to do it.

The take away - Pep is right. Choose carefully. Good ones are out there.

It is hard for basic nature to change. Requires an event that borders on cataclysmic, in most cases. Do YOU want to be the cataclysmic event to change his nature?

None of us know your significant other. But change requires a catalyst, or an EXTREME act of will. And it isn't you. You can't chane anyone but yourself. Your partner? You pretty much have to accept them "as is." If you think you will change them, you are in for a hard lesson. It must come from within them, so stack the deck in your favor. What LONG TERM qualities do you want?

Choose carefully.

NCWalker

Hi Pep!

Sorry for the delay... Had to walk the dogs.

Actually, I’m not sure your opinions differ so much from what has been said here so far, only the advice about the potential outcome.… :-) I appreciate the candor and am not dismissing any of it.

I agree. I see this, have seen it. It’s been a contributing problem in our relationship for a long time. Talk about DJs – this is where most of mine have lived! His immediate relations don’t communicate with each other. Everything is about appearances among themselves. They have little control of their behavioral reins in public. My family can behave very badly among ourselves. No one's perfect, but we always try to be nice with strangers and we do place a high importance on communicating in general.

His family does not espouse the same values that my family, I, believe to be important. I’m not saying I think honey’s family are lacking values. I’m saying I’m aware of significant differences in our backgrounds and beliefs in terms of loving, socializing, education, love, health, politics, finances, religion, and beyond religion, I think really a difference in terms of spirituality and being a part of a living, evolving guidance structure.

Honey has not been able to identify with his family or them with him for these reasons. The love is there, but he didn’t ever feel like he was understood, and he wasn’t -isn’t. They don’t communicate with each other beyond basic familial needs, food, shelter, hugs, etc. Even now, they just don’t TALK about anything. I had a different kind of upbringing. WSOs family acted lovingly toward me, right up until we announced our engagement. And that really is where we trace so many origins of problems back to, if I am to take honey/WSO at his word. I have to start somewhere.

I understand these statements and don’t reject them. I believe there may be a corollary. One persona is the man I know, knew and remember and he did exist, and may yet exist, and the persona of the man presenting himself openly today is also a man I am learning to know and he is as much of a stranger to himself as he is to the rest of us. I think honey is trying to find balance between the total freedom he desires and the daily restrictions that accompany living life with other people. OK, let’s just call him Phil from now on.

Thanks for saying I’m intelligent. I’ve got strength where a lot of people don’t usually but the down-side to that is that where everyone else is strong, I’m beyond lacking…

This is a good point you are making – thanks. We accept our friends and lovers as they are. Not as they were or might be. I am surprised at the behavior of other people though. People surprise me endlessly with their passions and flaws and goodness. But unkindness especially, it always catches me off guard even when I should expect it. It's another of my character weaknesses.

Pep, I think your input is great! I don’t disagree with it. I’m still floating - Deciding not to decide just yet as long as I’m in no danger of losing myself or anything else within my control to keep. Until I learn differently I consider myself newly single but not yet throwing Phil away either. I’m not sure what you mean in terms of our relationship being unbalanced and that I am the stronger of us two? Maybe you can explain what you see?

Sally

NC – Hi! You’ve been in my prayers!

It could be that my basic nature is not compatible with Phil’s. It’s a very real possibility. It could be that I’m not compatible with anybody unless we’re both willing to accept certain things and compromise on others…

I really don’t know. At his very core, I do not doubt that Phil is A Good Man. Even in his – what – fog? He has natural goodness. He is trying to hold onto an idealized concept of life and he’s failing. And sadly, I think it’s when he allows himself to fail, accepts compromise – that life isn’t meant to be perfect - he is able to see his right path more clearly. He’s struggling.

All right, I’m feeling the philosophical juices flowing tonight so I’m just going to blah blah blah along… This is a broad concept of how I see Phil fighting his own inner nature:

Around all of us is light. By itself, light is neither good nor bad. It exists in entirety at all times and places. Our perception is that the light follows where we put our thoughts and energy. Since light is really persistent and all-pervading regardless, our true responsibility isn’t how we perceive light, it’s where we focus our attentions.

I’m trying to be accountable for where I focus my attentions. I can let him go and I can be OK. I think I want to see this through some more. And in truth, as Phil asked me the other night – I don’t know to what end. It’s still too confusing for me to know.

Will you all keep giving me the reality checks? They help me. They’re restorative!

Sally

OK.

Reality checks it is.

What if he is the best you are going to be able to do?

I mean, what if there is no perfect match out there. And that may be someone like you, or someone exactly opposite of you.

For that matter, what would a perfect match be? Just like you, opposite, what?

The questions you need to be asking are what your expectations are for a husband. Or, more appropriately, what is your "wish list" for expectations have a nasty habit of going unmet.

If he NEVER changed, could you be happy? Would you be willing to suffer the bad while enjoying the good?

And this issue you are working through - it may be the catalyst he needs to "wake up." I am just saying you shouldn't live solely on the hope he will change and meet your needs.

If I remember right (without consulting the thread, and I am pretty sure) you and significant other are not married.

Don't know what faith you prescribe to, but to most of us, that is pretty much a whole different ball of wax. (And in the end, your faith doesn't matter to the point of this discussion).

You are young and lack some wisdom. Intelligence compensates, but only so much. Only so much war-gaming is productive. After a time, the effort expended does not match the gains from it. Logarithmic decay.

Try and scare up my old thread on the "servant's heart." It expands greatly on what you are hinting with in your statement about how the light follows where we put our thoughts and energy. I think the thread was titled "It's all pretty simple.." or something like that.

There were quite a lot of good viewpoints from some "heavyweights" on the board.

But don't forget, you don't have much time invested in this. Deceit so early in the game would daunting to me. My STBXW was a pillar of honesty, or so I thought.

Her current deceits are VERY hard for me to get over and if I had seen them to even half the degree they currently are when we were dating, I wouldn't have married her.

Broken trust takes enormous effort to restore.

Read the "Four Rules to a Happy Marriage" on the main page to this site. They are an excellent treatise on what it takes to be married. Simple. Effective. Does he exhibit these traits? Do they make sense to him? How much time are you willing to give him to "prove it?"

Define your boundaries. For when the emotions come (and they are sure to) it is those clearly defined boundaries you drew while lucid and not distracted by messy feelings that will save you from future heartache.

NCWalker

Hey NCWalker,

The first couple of times I read your last post here I had a very strong reaction – I got very sad. I needed to re-read and think it over. After reading a few more times, I was able to come away with a reality check, but I think not the way you intended?

I don’t think a perfect match exists. And anyway, my goal is to be a good human regardless of my romantic attachment. This group of questions about what and who and how much sounded to me like the Love Bank paradigm. So I’ll respond in that context.


I’m going to open a Love account based on what’s filling my LB. Because my LB has only one asset manager – me, I only extend one Love account to one member at a time – my marriage/romantic relationship.

I choose to keep the account open as long as my LB has enough in it to maintain functional, active transacting with some insurance in place to protect the original investment and cover overdrafts. Sometimes, my LB is secure enough to extend a loan to the account. Sometimes my LB needs bailing out.

As manager of my LB, I can decide to forgive a debt. I can choose to keep an inactive or empty account open. I can decide to close. If I decide the account must close, I don’t throw away the account information or the interest my LB has earned. I save the information in case I establish a new account with that member at a later time. I use the interest earned to keep my LB viable for new business.

NCW, this may sound foolish to you, but after careful consideration I’m sticking with what I know about myself – My expectation for a husband is that he is going to love me in such a way that I feel loved by him. That’s pretty much it.

I have no wish list. There is no perfect set of criteria that will always satisfy me exactly the same way every moment of every day in every possible situation. I have to be responsible for maintenance of my own LB – it’s my job to make sure that the LB is accessible, is open and available for transacting, easy to do Love business with and competitive with other Love business accounts.

My husband can make deposits and withdrawals from the account. He can add some satellite accounts to the main account. If my LB balance is so low that I cannot manage my own maintenance, I can close the account or maybe just limit access. I determine the amount of risk I’m willing to take with my Love Bank business.

At this point in the conversation I am going to disagree with your statement about faith and say that for me, my faith does matter very much because my faith lends some of the seed currency to help me start a Love Bank. It helps me in making daily management decisions for my LB with fairness and honesty. My faith helps my LB stay open for business when I am not managing my best because I am sick or tired or having a bad day. My faith helps to sustain me if my LB account suffers robbery or accidental loss.

If I’m keeping an empty or inactive LB account open and turn down other prospective account openers, because I liked my old account so much, I may be a foolish businessperson. If I close my Love Bank account and never open a new one, I may become a very impoverished businessperson, but ultimately, the decision to keep an account open, or to close and open a new account, is mine to make.

Ideally, for me, my LB is never going to be full and never empty. What I want is to maintain a bank account balance just high enough to cover accounts payable and still provide secure, tax-free transactions, a flexible interest-rate and benefits; such as dividends and charitable contributions.


Net: I'm going to love Phil until I decide to stop loving him.

Sally

And this makes you no different than every other person on this board. Regardless of marital status, unmarital status, religion, gender or level of educational intelligence.

And even when you "decide" not to love him anymore, you may still love him yet.

All is not lost Sally. He might change when he sees that you will settle for no less than a man who will be an equal, faithful partner in every sense of the word.

I assume that because you love him, he is worthy.

The key is getting yourself to the place where you will not settle for less.

He may rise to meet the occasion, or he may not. This is the risk. Are you up to the risk of waiting, is he worth the risk?

But then the risk doesn't really matter because you love him, so you have no choice but to take it. You can't go around it, you have to go through it.

Plan A & Plan B apply to you too.

You may stop loving him before it is all over, or things may work out and he becomes (returns to being) the man you want to be with.

Thinking of you,
weaver

Edited to add:

Holy mackerel Sally, I was curious about the name you chose for yourself so looked it up.

Wow, what a story.

Not foolish. Only comment to this, which is right as rain, is your choice of the word

"expectation."

I would rephrase it to "My DEFINITION for a husband...". And he either meets that

definition or does not. But it is wrong to EXPECT it from him. Maybe he can't.

My STBXW can't meet my definition of a wife. Some may think it unreasonable, some may

think it to charitous. But it is MY definition. She can't meet it, so I am acting

accordingly. If she DID meet it, I would also act accordingly.

In neither case am I expecting anything, nor am I holding her responsible for my

choice. I mean, it IS my definition and I could always change it.

All I have to do is be able to live with my choice, and I can. That is all you have to

do, too. But you already know that.

=====

The love bank paradigm is a good one. I once was involved with a thread where we

really explored that paradigm. More so from the mechanics behind it. The gist was

there were SEVERAL modes of transaction to the account. And it goes in lock step with

what you said. Specifically the part about ones ability to "hold the account open" in

the face of withdrawals, defaults, or even foreclosures.

It was a rousing debate. Here is a link. (At bottom)

Keep posting and never stop re-evaluating your position. But keep moving, too. As an

engineer, you will appreciate the term "analysis paralysis." Like I said before (and

it may have been to someone else), define those boundaries when your thoughts are CLEAR

and they will serve you well when the emotions get in the way.

NCWalker



Good Ole Thread

Weaver thank you, it’s been one of those days I think. NCWalker? If I offended, please forgive? I’ve been all moody for the last half hour wondering if it’s this HRT or me? Or both...

I can’t think of better company and I’m thankful for everyone here. :-)

He may not change. Even if he does change, he may not want me anyway. There are lots of things I can’t change that don’t fit in with what Phil wants in a mate right now.

I worry about the worthiness argument only because I round robin back to does his not loving me mean that I’m not worthy? In general, I think, well partly – Yes.

In all truth, I had no idea – None – that I was settling for less than his full and honest commitment to me – to us. It’s a very different story now that I know that he didn’t act in good faith.

Given that, it’s still easy to say if he agrees to ABC etc., he will be worth the wait and risk. I’m not sorry I took a risk on love. I don’t know if I’d do it again with someone else – not for a while, if ever - I’m still all squidgy. But it’s my nature to throw my whole being into things.

You know in that Rudyard Kipling poem IF? I have the first part of this down:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

It’s the second part I’m having trouble with! :-)

And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;

It’s that grace under pressure thing! Gotta work on my inner much more, LIVE my example more, SAY much, much less.

He seems genuine about going to counseling. What would be our goal in that? Should I enter into that with a different goal than reconciliation and all that goes with it? Is it too early? Is it too late? Is detachment synonymous with passivity in these situations? Am I supposed to wait until he calls me to say he’s arranged an appointment?? Am I supposed to be that detached???

Sally

Excellent point and it appeals to my love of choosing words carefully. Amended:

NCW, you very kind person who does not punish but informs, this may sound foolish to you, but after careful consideration I’m sticking with what I know about myself – My definition of a husband is that he is going to love me in such a way that I feel loved by him. That’s pretty much it.


Sally

Sorry - I kind of need some help with this one:

Having a tough week. It seems to be coming to a close rapidly and oh, I don't know. Guess I'm having trouble with the Plan A limbo. Or something else I can't pin in my head?

But if someone has some thoughts/experience to share about the counseling? I've only been able to find two decent prospects for counselors near Phil - one woman, one man. They are both of the encouraging move forward type. The woman has more experience. The man is very spiritual but has much less experience. Does it matter for Phil to be speaking with a man? My guess is that it would knowing his personality...

And, I haven't asked any questions about Phil's day-to-day - what is going on at work. What is going on w/A ? With talking to friends/family... Should I be asking?

My gut is telling me that in the couple of days that passed since, everyone seems to accept Phil's A and has moved on from it... but I have no way of knowing. It's only a feeling.

Thanks all,
Sally