Sally, I understand your confusion. Don't have much to offer plan A wise but can say that a pro M counselor is what you want. Your WH will need to feel comfortable opening up with the person so if man is better than look for one. Can you call your church and get a recommendation? Or you can call Family Life today (radio program) and they will direct you to pro M counselors in your area. Hugs to you.

Thanks - There is not a large pool from which to choose from and in fact, I just called the counselor that is a man. He doesn't even practice anywhere near us! ||sigh||

This sounds stupid and uninformed and that is because I am... but should I be making appointments? Or should Phil (WSO) be doing that? Perhaps the question is how important is it for him to be pushing the agenda?

Sally

Sally what is Phil's goal with counseling? Is he interested in ending his relationship with OW and rebuilding with you?

Hi Weaver,

I'm not at my best this morning. Sorry in advance...

Phil insists that A with OW is over. If I believe him then that is an answer.

I do not believe he is interested in re-building with me because for him, it is "too hard". He doesn't want to put in the effort because he is tired out from us. Then too, there have been many times since the split when has said he would be willing to try if...

but there is always an if, and the if can't be answered without first getting the help. So it goes 'round and 'round.

he seems sincere when he expresses a wish for things to be different for us. He JUMPED at the counseling suggestion. I was very surprised at his positive response. But that was a couple of days ago and I haven't been pushing contact, so again, who knows?

I do not know when he is truthful or not anymore. I don't know if he knows the difference in himself either.

Here are two samples from last night expressing regret.


****** Letter deleted by Sally ******

******************

****** Letter deleted by Sally ******

I believe he means all of it when he says it. But then he'll usually say something else later that is contradictory, and he means that too...

Sally

Okay,

You need to be in a solid Plan A for a short while. This means no LB's, no DJ's, no relationship talk, no pressure.

You be as detached, yet as attractive as possible. If that makes sense. Show him a you, that was you when you met. Happy and carefree.

He wants his freedom it sounds like but still cares very deeply for you.

I'ld give him that space Sally, even more than what he is asking for because you will not talk relationship talk with him. Just say that you understand, you will miss him but you want to give him what he wants. You love him so are willing to let him go.

For a short while do this so that he begins to feel less pressure and starts to remember all the positive things that about the two of you together.

I would drop the counseling idea too, unless he finds a counselor and pushes it.

In Tough Love, this is what is recommended. Kind of like opening that cage so the bird can fly. Sometimes they fly back with a renewed attitude and more realistic picture of what you really had together.

He must paint a bleak picture right now, but that will change with time away from you and with his freedom lovingly granted by you.

Expect that he will change daily, as he is in turmoil. You remain the same though. Loving, detached and leading your new life of freedom.

In a month or two re-evaluate to see where you are at that time with your feelings. Plan B might then be in order to protect you and help you to let go, and to show him what life without you completely will be like.

That's the way I would handle it anyway, and in a nutshell that is what the Plan A/ Plan B strategy is.

Sally,

Have you contacted an attorney to see about protecting your financial rights? I have this huge fear that he's making the right noises to keep you happy and keep you from doing that. This OW is capable of staying in a marriage while having an affair in order to attain citizenship. If he continues with a relationship with her, do you think she may pressure him to keep any financial assets that he can? You've seen that he's very capable of deceit and hurting you. I can't stress enough how you need to protect yourself at this time.

Dobie

Hi Dobie, I really wanted to butt into your dog thread in I'ville :-)

By noises, you mean what he wrote last night? The style and loving declarations are completely in keeping with how he'd write/talk with me for the first 7 of our 8 years... Only the kernel of subject matter is changed.

For the month+ after split he would flip-flop between tender/loving and frustrated/angry in person. After that period until I found out about A he was mostly tender/loving. He flipped out after kissing me once. I guess now I know why. He is purposely showing restraint from his usual loving expressions to break himself of the habit (according to him).

Yep, that was restraint.

We’re not married. My rights (if any) aren’t well defined. Everyone here at MB has given much attention and very good advice regarding me protecting myself financially etc. BTW, all, there has been no discussion of selling house since Sunday night. Nada.

Yesterday Phil asked me when I would be taking a trip to visit my family, as he would take the dogs saying I deserved to have some time away. Knowing old Phil, I hear him as sweet and genuine. Knowing capability of new Phil, I wonder will I have a house to return to if I leave. That's really too dramatic. Even if I wonder at it, it seems so very unlikely. He’d have to move many resources very quickly and things just don’t tend to move that fast around here.

All the same, I was going to tell him my dates might change and try to suss out a reaction. :-(

Sally

You can always butt in there. Idiotville is made for [censored].

I always recommend that the BS (or BSO?) protect themselves fully from a person who clearly does not have their best interests at heart. This includes emotionally, physically (don't forget STDs), and financially. And when I say making noises, that's all I ever consider it until the wanderer is in NC and committed to rebuilding the relationship. Anything less is just cake eating.

Part of the reason I want you to see a lawyer is BECAUSE your rights aren't clearly defined. You may also want to check the law on common-law marriage in your state.

He's overwhelmed by aliens right now. You can't trust anything he says or does. Others who have been thru this will back me up. You may want to believe that he has your best interests at heart, and he may even believe it himself, but it's just not possible for him at this time.

Dobie

Weaver hi, thanks. OK. Trying.

I'd already been working on Plan A before I found out about Phil's A w/OW. I like Plan A. :-) I faltered a bit Sunday and Monday and we talked much about us, and since Monday, I've said not much at all. Just trying to be sweet, not ask anything. Be agreeable. I don't call him unless I have to - for house biz.

I don't know -- should I answer his calls? Should I answer his e-mail? Should I answer less? I don't know how to answer. (When he refers to reading my words, he refers the outbox file, letters I wrote to my friends -- not to him. He's read it a few times now.) I’ve been keeping all of my talks/emails short and sweet. He doesn’t like the brevity of them. He has said he’d like me to call more because it’s easier on him that way.

But it’s not easier for me - I would rather just be short and sweet thanks. It seems fair for me to not be initiating contact or talking a lot… but when we don’t, he thinks I am punishing him or I’m too upset to be in contact. I worry about being so out of sight, out of mind but I don't see alternatives. I’m speaking freely here because I can.

I know he loves me deeply. I just also think I should believe him now that he says he doesn’t love me enough.

I can keep working Plan A. When my hair stops falling out I’m sure I’ll start feeling better. Isn’t trauma grand? Yuck! I'm having one of those days... I'm still cleaning up these tangled masses of hair from the counters, floor, the car, I'm shedding on the dogs instead of the other way around. The shower is the worst. :-(

Weaver this helps me to stop spinning on the counseling decision. Thank you again. I’ll let Phil take the lead on that stuff. Another question? If Phil asks me to schedule a meeting with MC, how do I politely decline or suggest that he do it without seeming ambivalent? This has long been his pattern so I wouldn’t be surprised if it popped up again in that form…

Sally

He is a classic fence sitter and a classic alien. he wants to have his cake and to eat it too. He loves you but is not in love with you (aka does not love you enough, or in that way). All classic fogtalk.

While in Plan A you try to meet his needs as much as possible while remaining detached. Answer his emails and calls as much as you want but don't always be available. let him wonder a bit. If he starts up the relationship talk in person instead of in email just agree with whatever he says. "I think we were wrong for each other. We are too different" "Yes Phil, I think so to"



I would let him know that you are very much interested in MC once you are in a committed relationship again, working towards a future together. And that you hope someday you can rebuild that way with him.

Hope others can offer more insight...try to read all you can of Orchids fog babble. He definately is babbling, and in major fog.

Hi Sally_A,

It sounds like your SO can't make a commitment one way or the other... Watch his actions and see if they are the actions of a committed man that wants to right the wrong that he's done.... if they're not, then I'd run away as fast as I could.

He needs to take the lead here and his actions must be consistent over a very long period of time before I'd even think about trusting him...

Semper Fi,
RIF

I've read Orchid's reverse babble thread - just about broke me bum from falling on the floor I laughed so hard!

Phil is very much hurt by this sort of thing. Sometimes even offended. He withdraws and sulks. Once I found out about A, and that every time I agree with his babble (nicely of course), he was going to call OW and cry on her shoulder, I stopped because it seemed to be a LB... :-(

But on a lighter note: This is wisdom from Patty Henry, PhD by way of Cosmo magazine.

Is He Still Hooked on His Ex? If you have a feeling your new guy could be jonesin' for his former flame, find out for sure with these giveaways.

* [color:"purple"]He bitches about her.[/color] Ironically, while putting his ex down and talking you though all of her flaws may seem like a sign he's over her, it actually indicates that your new dude is probably still riding the rebound roller coaster. Where there's anger, there are usually unresolved feelings... maybe even love.

* [color:"purple"]He has no clue what went wrong.[/color] When the subject of how your new guy and his last girlfriend split comes up, try asking "So what actually happened with you guys?" If your new squeeze has zero idea or blurts out something like "She went totally crazy" without acknowledging his own role in the breakup, then he may not have made peace with the end of that union.

* [color:"purple"]He talks about your future.[/color] No matter how much we wish this were healthy guy behavior, it isn't. In the very early days, a man who's in a rush to get serious - for instance, he busts out the L word or wants to make plans for way down the track - could be trying to re-create the circumstances of his last relationship to avoid having to get over it the hard way: alone.

Hmmn, 2.5 out of 3 isn't bad. Smiles all, Weaver, many thanks.
Sally