This is my first post on Marriage Builders. This is what I would like advice on: My 23 year old, son has been dating a 20 year old, woman at the same college. She is 3 years younger than he is. They have been dating for about 2 years. Last summer they broke up...she needed space. During this time she dated no one else and enjoyed just being "free". In the fall they got back together. They just split up again...although she says she loves him..she needs space.....and NOW they are getting back together again. She fits the description of a "free loader" and my son fits the description of a "buyer." So the relationship works easily much of the time. My son believes that he really loves her, but is worried that this may be an ungoing problem. He said, what if they stay together and get married and two years down the road, she decides that she needs space. He doesn't know if this is PART OF HER PERSONALITY OR A FUNCTION OF HER AGE. Any ideas? My son knows that I have posted this question and looks forward to any insights any of you may have.

Simple enough question...simple enough answer...

They are TOO young to consider getting married. Too many people think that getting married means getting "emotionally fused". It's easy to do this when you are young, but it creates alot of tension that drives that need for space. It's ultimately dysfunctional.

Your son and his intended do need space...and time to find out WHO they really are.

I have a college age daughter whose bigest complaint is that too many college men want to "settle her down". She's smart. She knows she's got a lot more living to do before she knows what she really wants from life.

People live a long time these days. There's no reason to marry early. Is anybody ever really ready to marry? I doubt it, but the more mature the couple, the better equipped they will be to deal with the challenges of marriage.

I think your son would do well to follow hi girlfriend's example.

Low

Reasonable suspicions. Better to make an assessment of this before its costs are higher.

Age or personality? Hard to say. Either or.

My advice to your son is that since she's now needed to "find her space" twice, that he find a woman not quite so "spacy." Marriage to this juvenile should be the last thing on his mind. She could grow up and be a model wife. Then again, maybe not. Why take the risk? He should consider looking elsewhere and NOT be in a hurry. In the meantime, Spacecadet may mature.

WAT

Thanks Low...I am in total agreement with you. I probably should not have mentioned the marriage part. They are at least 3 to 5 years away from that possiblity. He has a lot of school ahead of him and certainly she does, as well. What he finds unsettling is the on again - off again and is considering that they should both move in different directions...

But consider this...the fact that he finds this unsettling has nothing to do with her. She is behaving a lot like you'd expect a carefree 20 year-old to behave.

He is unsettled because he has expectations that are unreasonable at this point.

Will he acknowledge that? Will he admit that perhaps he needs the space as well?

So what if they grow apart and go different directions? That could be a good thing. There's plenty of fish in the sea.

He won't be the same man 5 years from now that he is now. What makes him think that this is the girl he will want to marry then?

Low

My son, while marriage is the distant future, feels that dating is part of selecting a mate. So the real question is this age or a long, lasting pattern of behavior. Breaking up is certainly part of relationships, but the cycle of breaking up and getting back together is troubling.

Please allow me to throw another idea out for your consideration.

Even in the best of relationships (IMO), each partner needs both "time" and "space" to themselves. Is it possible that your son may be "smothering" his gf in this relationship, not allowing her to be herself?

Is so, he may see this problem again in the future with other gf's.

Georgia

Oh WAT you're a funny guy.

I must agree with Low. No one should get married and have children before they are 30. Ones 20's should be a time to find out who they are and what they want in a partner.

It may be a personality trait with her or it may be immaturity. She should be immature, she is only 20. But you never know at this age, that is why they are both too young.

He should be dating around, not latching onto one girl. He should be learning, growing and having fun at this time. He has many years after his 20's to get messed up by a woman. LOL

To son of vikings:

Have fun
Date casually
Get smart
And make your daddy proud!

The right woman will come along, slow down and don't get too attached to anyone right now. Have fun with her when she is around if you like, but I wouldn't hang my hat on this relationship.

Perhaps the young lady does not view dating in the same way. My daughter enjoys the company of the opposite sex, but not because she's seeking a marriage partner. They can be fun to be around, and she learns more about herself...her likes and preferences...without any pressure or expectation that the relationship will have to progress to something more serious.



Then, I propose that he's shopping WAY too early.

If he's not ready to get married, then why is he dating?

It's not that I disagree with his outlook. My daughters read a book called "I Kissed Dating Goodbye". It espoused the idea that dating was always about finding a mate, so if you weren't ready to find a mate yet, you shouldn't date.

Has your son read this book? Just curious.

Low

I can sum my advice up in 2 words....

BIRTH CONTROL

committed

Ha Viking,

You are dealing with a well known issue. As I have several mid-20's kids, it is a time old problem isn't it?

I would agree waiting to 30+ is an excellent idea, probably because that is how I did it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, seriously if your son has a lot more schooling ahead of him and clearly she does, I think it is he with the issue and not her.

Now I am old enough to remember that many women went to college for the MRS degree. That seems to be a think of the past. But, I will tell you a lot of guys did as well, although they don't admit it. You could not believe the number of guys who got married the day after graduation from college at the school I went to.

I attribute it to fear and loneliness, plus Vietnam. I think it is very scary to head out on your own, and most people want someone they can lean on. I am guessing that your son is closer to being ready to be serious than she is. Many would and have said that he is closer than he should be at this point.

My recommendation is to suggest to him that there are many fish in the sea and he would be well advised to use the "catch and release" program right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> WAT will know what I am talking about.

More importantly there is a very very serious issue that your son needs to consider. HE is NOT the person he will be when he finally gets out of school and starts his career. College is a very artificial environment and few people can fully show or act on the full range of who they are until school is OUT.

Even if she is THE ONE, it is very likely to be based on the current environment, and that will change for both of them. I have a lot of friends that married in college and graduate school who are divorced and relatively shortly after graduating because it turned out what they really had in common was school, tests, studying, perhaps the weekend party or football game. When they start to LIVE LIFE together in the real world, they found they had little else in common.

I would encourage you to discuss this with your son. No matter her actions, he is at a time where some good old fashion introspection would really help. Both he and this young lady are NOT who they will be when they get out of school.

I think her need for space clearly indicates she is NOT comfortable in this relationship no matter how strong the attraction.

Good luck and tell me how it goes. I have had and will have very similar discussions with sons and daughters in the near future.

God Bless,

JL

What I find a problem with waiting so long is the potential number of sexual partners they will have before marriage and the potential for contracting STD's,(or pregnancies)...possibly with permanent reprussions.

I understand that is the average morality of today. There is this false commited monogamy while they are BF and GF, but it is really too early for that kind of commitment. They end up playing married without the real commitment and security of traditional marriage. Then you have some that are putting the cart before the horse by having kids before the marry and still being unsure that they are ready for the commitment of marriage. Lots of times sex causes the relationship/friendship to cease to mature at the early stages because the sex becomes the major focus.

True abstinance is the ideal that few are able to adhere to. With true astinance would come the natural tendancy to wish to mate and thus the desire to get married earlier rather that wait until 30 yrs old or so. Better to marry than to burn...

I think viking's son would do well to move on from this GF and hope to meet someone of like mind with the level of commitment and goals he desires. She may be establishing a pattern for herself or it may just be her need to just be free and mature but getting confused in the process quesioning whether she'd be giving up on the actual love of her life.

No...He is not smothering. He in fact is the opposite. He is an athlete and the time commitment because of the sport is unreal...he is gone about 2 weekends a month and also is a very good student, which require a lot of study. They both have a lot of freedom in the relationship... Neither are the jealous types, so each goes out with their friends etc. Both are very independent in the relationship, that's what is puzzling. When they break up, he respects her decision and walks away. (Privately, he feels a tremendous loss and saddness) Each time, she begins calling etc and eventually they get back together. Maybe it is because she is 20 and acting like a normal 20 year old. Or maybe she likes the drama...

Ok, Trix...you're gonna have to help me with this one.

Are you proposing that I should advise my daughter to marry early to avoid these things?

I don't buy that the number of partners you have before you're marriage has a huge impact, other than to better define your own preferences.

Of course one can contract STDs and experience unwanted pregnancies, but ALL of these things are far more likely to occur with younger couples.

The world is a dangerous place to be sure...but it's also a wonderous place filled with joy and adventure.

I won't buy into the "abstinance gang's" mentality of fear. That said, it's anyone's prerogative to decide to wait AND to look for a like minded partner. Bravo for them.

My daughter is not a virgin. We speak honestly about such things in our family. She is smart about her choices. She knows that her sexuality is hers...and no one elses.

I'm confident that she will go into her marriage knowing herself well. She'll be better prepared to love her partner out of choice...not out of need.

Low

This makes a lot of sense to me...

I agree that abstinence is the best idea. Sexual intimacy puts a serious twist on a relationships before the relationship warrants such intimacy. I also think it causes people to bond with each other, that might not have bonded. Pretty much muddies the waters...and to multiple partners is not only dangerous, it is very unattractive to a perspective mate.

(quote)She may be establishing a pattern for herself or it may just be her need to just be free and mature but getting confused in the process quesioning whether she'd be giving up on the actual love of her life.(/Quote)
He is almost 4 years older than she is....I totally understand her desire to be free and maybe it isn't a pattern she is setting up but only that she is simply to young. When she thinks she's loosing him, she comes running back.

For various reasons, [color:"blue"]You all seemed to agree on one thing....THEY SHOULD SPLIT UP. [/color] I will let him read all your posts and thank you so much for your advice...it has been very valuable!!!!!!!!!!!

Low, it isn't really just the fear thing. STD's, unwanted pregnancies,etc. psychological baggage are potential consequences of pre-marital or adulterous sex. Those are just facts. It is really just a debate topic maybe not appropriate for Viking's thread so I am sorry for the thread jack, Viking.

Dating and relationships have been confusing for a while now. I was not a virgin when I married, I did have some consequences due to my own promiscuity during the early '70's. I did live with my H for 1.5 yrs before marriage. We became practicing Christians then married right after that. I was raised a Catholic and fell away after the death of my mom just before I entered high school. I was making up my own morality as I went along just as many youth are doing today. I've come full circle as we have been Catholics since 1999....we renewed our vows in the Church a year after my H's longest A.

Sex can have a bonding effect. I believe the ideal person to bond with is a spouse. I believe in the real commitment of marriage. Less young adults believe that marriage is necessary.

None of our 3 adult children are virgins. The oldest is nearly 28 and is trying to end a 7 yr on again off again relationship with his now 24 yr old GF. They seemed to be addicted to each other and one or the other would go through pain when they would try to break up. Then they'd get back together and probably have great 'fun' making up only to start their patterns all over again. They alternately both broke their trust in each other.
The jury is still out if they will remain broken up this time. I think they could use a good break from each other.

My D is in a committed R that will have some periods where they will be long distances from each other. He is from Panama and she is still in college here. He has been visiting for several months...staying in our guest room which just happens to be adjacent my D's bedroom. We've stated house rules, but aren't naive. They are not practicing Christians.

The middle son had an older GF (12 yrs his senior) for a year that I hope has ended (not really my business; I never met her), he has stated that it isn't serious on his part.

Some kids tend to agree to be monogomous before they are really ready for that commitment and before they have dated very many people. I just wish that dating could be clearly finding the right mate or just kept at a friendship or group level instead of just hooking up ie. trying out a variety of different sex partners. In hindsight, that got me no where.

Can they really just focus on their college and career building without the complications of sexual relationships?

As a Christian I think that abstinance is an ideal..but I doubt that most people could stand to wait very long because we aren't made that way. If single now, I don't know if I could keep myself from pre-marital sex..I would like to think I could. I know it isn't the norm and many would think it's too weird. I just see the wisdom it waiting.


I have a GF I gre up with who was a virgin when she married her high school sweetheart right after graduating from college. She is still happily married. At least one of her two adult children are commited to following the same path, only she is going for a doctorate. My friend has a master's in divinity and is an associate pastor of a church.

Another Christian friend, also was a virgin when she married a few years after college and is still married to the same man. These may be exceptions.

My BIL was a protestant pastor. He went through a bitter D and is now pretty much an agnostic.

If your daughter's read 'Kiss Dating Goodbye' then they are aware of the wait until you are married to have sex Christian philosophy. The author, Josh Harris, turned his own life around and stopped having sex prior to meeting his wife. They didn't even kiss until they were saying their vows. They formally dated. I think that is a very intriguing idea. What did your daughter's think of the book. How is that working for them?

Infidelity and divorce happens either way. We see that here everyday.

Edited to remove DJ.

I don't think that was exactly the prevailing opinion. I think it was more along the lines that he should broaden his vision. He could possibly learn a lot by continuing to socialize with her, i.e., learn a lot about the behavioral "variety" available in the female species <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - just not view her right now as a permanent fixture.

WAT

Wat - Love Your Wit... I will pass your ideas on.

HUGE DJ there, Trix! But not one that's unexpected from those people who think they have a lock on what's moral and what's not, so I'll extend you some grace on that.

I don't think this warrants a separate post because I fear most people on MB aren't prepared to discuss it respectfully.

For the record, I think Christians have screwed up their view of sex from the outset.

Brother Paul, apostle he may be, wrote from the misogynistic middle eastern cultural norms of the time. (St.) Augustine continued to propagate the false idea that sexuality was somehow "base".

The very word "fornication" is rooted in the greek term "pornos". It refers to sex that objectifies the participants, not to sexual activity that occurs in mutually consenting couple in relationship.

In the OT, the Hebrew word was "zanah" which refers to sex with a prostitute.

It was our early Christian fathers who believed that the term should be expanded to cover all manner of "sexual immorality" as if it is somehow obvious what is immoral and what is not.

Sexuality is NOT base. Every human being is a sexual human being whether they are married or not. Sexuality is as natural as any other behavior.

As with any other behavior, we can choose how and when we choose to engage in it. It's a mistake to think that this is something to big and too powerful to be entrusted to those who aren't married.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for this, but I'm not really interested in being "called out". I don't expect anyone to change there way of thinking just for me.

you might find it interesting to note that I didn't think like this AT ALL before my affair or during. Only afterwards, in learning to reconcile these "base" desires with what it means to be truly human.

Low

Low Orbit,
I apologize for the DJ...I was aware that it was a low blow.


I don't think I used the word 'base'. I agree that sexuality is natural. I guess it is how we each define morality. I may be reactionary in how my ideal view of morality has evolved since the marital infidelity/adultery experiences. Like I said, if I were single again, I really don't know how I would sustain it all with my actions. It would be a test that I am not certain I would pass.

Maybe I should go back and edit out my DJ.

I understand that you don't think that sex outside of marriage is wrong. You believe as long as the sex is between consenting adults, that is all that matters. I believe your beliefs are the majority.

I think it is an interesting subject to discuss even though many of us will disagree. I am open to listening and learning. Thanks for taking the time.