Recently I posted in recovery that my W had finally ended contact with ONS/EA partner. Under the title Healing Gesture I explained how she had finally deleted OM's phone number from her cell. Well through the magic of online viewing I just viewed her March phone bill. After about 2 mos. of no calls she made at least 2 dozen calls to OM in March.

If I confront her I will lose my ability to view but am getting very close to the point of not caring. Would appreciate any advice on how to handle. I really thought we were finally closing this chapter.

I don't know that I would call this an EA but clearly we haven't taken any of the necessary steps to heal. Yes, we have tried MC but all very one sided. I am thinking of confronting her tomorrow and laying out all the books I have read along with printed posts from this forum and perhaps a printout of the phone bill. Don't be afraid to break out the 2 x 4's, I'm thick skinned and probably need a whack.

WOE

Hi WOE,

i don't think i have any advice, except to say, i think, you do have to let her know what you have discovered. you don't have to let her know how you discovered it. but to just ignore it and say nothing will only cause you to lose more of you love for her. you don't want that to happen.

mostly i just wanted to say HI and tell you i literally just said a prayer for you.

Oh crud!

So sorry 2 hear this. I know you said she made a lot of calls 2 him, but how long were the connections? Quick? Long?

Don't know if it makes a difference (particularly 2 you).

I think I'd confront her. See what she says. You've both been "at this" for long enough that I think you'll know when she's being truthful and when she's not.

You should probably consider what you will do if the A is back on.

-ol' 2long

WOE:

Man, that DOES really Bite the big one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Especially in light of your last news (that you'd THOUGHT that your "light" and Soft approach had FINALLY paid off for you).

To have gotten your thoughts / emotions "around" that supposed positive Fact, (and then to find out its NOT so).... must be a truly Bitter Pill to swallow.

NO 2 x 4's today my friend (as I'm sure you've gotten enough of them From Yourself). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Guess Some of the questions are:
When do you plan to tell her what you know?

Is there ANY "need" (for you) to be able to continue to monitor her phone activities?
Or do you KNOW enough?

Is there any way to make a true "boundary" on this issue?
One that She will respect and honor....and that YOU can Live with?

Since she has been "deceptive" on this issue, is there any risk that there could be any other "escalation" of her activities with this guy??

As far as showing her your marriage type materials ....what would make her any more receptive to them NOW....then she has been in the past?

Lastly, are you prepared to be More Firm, and Less accommodating then you have been in the past?
Or will it be back to "walking on eggs"?
(Not trying to be sarcastic.....as I think its very important....as it basically shows if your sticking to your current plan OR going to try something at least slightly different).

IN any case,
You do have my sympathies at this unfortunate Turn of Events.

WOE, I just happened upon your post. I asked you how things were going on my thread yesterday and I'm sorry to hear this latest news.

Honey, no 2x4s from me. I am starting to feel like I really don't know anything about recovering from infidelity 14 months into this mess. Times like now, when I am back to feeling like it is a giant cliff to be climbed over without any safety equipment, well you get the point. On that cheerful note I'll try my best to respond to your latest.

WOE, this is what comes to my mind. I don't think that you can keep allowing her to do what she keeps on doing, because frankly she keeps making horrible choices. What's that saying, "If you keep on doing the same thing you'll keep getting the same." My impression is that your W is living in some sort of a fantasy world that for whatever reason she just can't or won't give up. Maybe it is too scary for her to look at her life and make healthy changes. In my months of studying for that dumb test one of the theorists talks about the "internal locus of control." What is inside of us that causes us to make choices in our lives? Is it because of our own inner convictions, what people are telling us to do, what makes us feel good?

Sorry, I'm in a weird state of mind this morning. You can't control her or make her do anything. As Top Rope said, why would she read those MB materials now, or anything else for that matter? What I would like to see you do, (I know, easy for me to say), is really figure out what it is that you need and want in your M. If you have to wait a week, 2 weeks, whatever, get crystal clear about it. And then no more "F"ing around! Tell your W what you know and what "YOU" want and need. If that is going to MC, talking to Steve Harley together, reading every friggin A book on the market with her, then so be it. OMG, my anger at your poor W is coming out. I can tell because I'm typing very hard. I'm also giving advice which I told myself I wouldn't do.

WOE, you and I both have seniors in HS I think. I know the pain of worrying about your children, especially at this time in their lives. Putting our Ms on the line isn't an easy choice. I just fear that your W will never grow up until you expect her to. Unfortunately that might mean giving her the opportunity to make her own choices, either good or bad. That is why I'd like you first to really figure things out for yourself. WOE, what are your top ENs? One of mine is "openness and honesty", which is maybe why your W's actions are driving me nutso. Bottom line, she is either along for the ride of healing your M through concrete participation, or she isn't. If you find out that ultimately you are fine living with her behavior, then so be it. If not, don't expect her to change on her own volition. HUGS! CV

FL, thanks for stopping by. Your's is one of the most inspirational stories I have read on this board. I know there have been setbacks but I hope you can take consolation in struggles like mine and many others that it is a very long journey to healing. So I thank you for your prayers and wish you the very best.

2long, you know this much better than me. I am reminded of the movie the Ring and the line "it will never stop". Is the A continuing? No, but neither is the M. It is simply so disrespectful and shows just how uncommitted she is. But I still have the positive development of her leaving this team and the fact that she will see this man very infrequently if at all going forward. She has asked me to join a team with her and I have agreed. Now, I will confirm with her first whether the OM is in the same league before I go forward. I took the invitation in good faith but am now skeptikal of motives.

Top Rope, you're right there is not much point to showing her the materials. She knows and ackowleges that this latest contact has again hurt me deeply. I wouldn't say she doesn't care but rather the need for contact supercedes her feelings for me.

CV, glad you found me. I like your idea. I will think it over. You said you went to a MB weekend. How was it? My instincts tell me not to give up my access to her cell records. A line in the sand forces her to go underground further and I'll never know what's wrong in my M. At least this way I have the luxury of a roadmap. You're right that I can't snap her out of this. She has to do it. I will continue to control what I can which is making it very uncomfortable for her to discuss OM or suggest we somehow wind up in his company through any common groups. She is a very warm and caring person so I believe it hurts her when I confront her about hurting me. I'm not giving her an out but just ackowleging how much of an addiction this is. I told her recently that she has been in love with other men for the last 7 years of our M. She didn't protest but just asked "and why do you think that". Meaning it's my fault.

Finally I do have a senior in H.S. who is going to Penn State. Leaving the M isn't even on the radar for me. I think the list is a good idea and sort of take an more objective look at things. Just like your test, anything worth having is worth the struggle. Good luck next time around.

WOE

WOE,

Sadly it seems our W's have this much in common:

They are far more comfortable Asking for [color:"blue"] Forgiveness [/color] then for Permission.


(Cause to do otherwise, would force them to possibly Do Without "whatever" it is they WANT at the moment).

It is just further evidence of how little they have changed the same selfish type of thoughts and actions that lead to the A's on the first place!

WOE, I just spent so much time writing a post on my thread and it disappeared, so I'm feeling very frustrated. But before I leave MB I want to write to you what I really think. If you would have read the disappearing post maybe you'd understand my mood. So take whatever I say now with a giant grain of salt.

I have my own little fantasy about what I wish you would do after self-reflection. Of course this would be great in a perfect world where there are no children to be hurt. I would want you to tell you W to SH** or get off the pot. You are a great guy, and a deeply committed H. You don't deserve this crap anymore. You are a man who I believe would jump through hoops to have a fantastic M. Your DA** right she is being disrespectful towards you by calling him. My wish is that you would draw the line in the sand and let her face the hard choices in life. You can't be Med and keep allowing yourself to fall in-love with other men. If your W wants to continue on that path, fine, but you don't need to be involved in her games. If she wants to have the love of a good man, that would be you, than she needs to grow up and be your W. Do what it takes to have a great M with YOU!!!!

There, I said it! CV

Top Rope, I never really knew your story but glad you can empathize though certainly not happy you're in this boat either. Your succinct response says it all. She is simply more concerned with whatever feels good then dealing with the reality of those choices. Very well put.

I have a tolerable situation and one I suppose I have more than accepted, though it remains unacceptable. I suppose my only real course of action is to continue to try to lead a life that is respectable to both myself and my children. Hopefully before too late, she will wake up. Take care and thanks.

CV, of course you are right. I think it comes down not only to the children but back to the LB$$. With my feelings still very strong I simply don't seem to be willing to take the chance. Despite my tremendous background in gambling. I if could figure out how to use the gremlins I would have inserted a smile face here.

But I'm sorry you lost your post. I can tell you this system has given me problems but there was a post in GQ how to stop getting knocked off. Follow the instructions and download firefox and do the couple of other things it says to do. You'll thank me for this advice. CV, you've been a great support to me and I appreciate it. Thanks for your very kind words and I do know I need to do something very soon. It really does suck that the only time I'll really be appreciated by W is the day I die or walk out the door or have an A myself. Very sad indeed.

What does this mean?

Don't even think about the last one. You are very knowledgeable on how destructive affairs are to everybody involved [even if they are exit affairs] so don't go there. Divorce your W first before you even contemplate having an affair. You will thank yourself later. Trust me on this one.

TMCM

WOE, I can keep on posting because this appt I had was cancelled, and I don't have to study anymore. At least not for 2 more months.

After my last post, which I'm sure is loaded with my own projection, I guess I should explain further. I just love all this psychological stuff I've been filling my brain with. Of course "projection" is a defense mechanism in which we place our feeling onto another. My feelings being that I wish that I knew my H was willing to jump through hoops like you are willing to do for your W. Comprendey?

Anyway, after that post to you I was hit by how much your W needs IC. You seem to believe that the gentle, strong approach is finally one day going to make her wake up and appreciate you. Yet you also say you hope she wakes up before it's too late, which indicates you have those thoughts also. Please forgive me for my next statement, OK? But I hope you are still in IC because I wonder why you put up with your W reaching out to other men. That sounds really bad WOE, but I'm not trying to be disrespectful. Maybe the fact that you obviously love your W so much and as you say your feelings are still so strong towards her. I just am not sure change is going to happen within her with the continued gentle approach. Why do you think we all here on MB were so darn happy when you blew at her when you were driving that day? My memory is that that sure got her attention. But heck, don't listen to me. What do I know? CV

I think I know what you mean by the M isn't continuing, but help me out here. In my case, our "M", such as it was, "ended" or was broken over 14 years ago. We're still legally Md, and I'd like 2 stay that way, but we have a long way 2 go before it's "continuing" in anything like what I believe 2 be a real M. On the other hand, your statement sounds like you're close 2 an ultimatum. Not a bad thing, if you're ready. Might be just the thing 2 wake her up.


Not surprising, as it indicates that the addiction is still in control of her feelings, and she identifies with her feelings. But if she knows and acknowledges that the contact hurts you, does that mean you confronted her with what you found? And if so, you should be prepared for her 2 go underground if she's still that affected by her addiction. The key here is that, at this stage in your personal recovery, you will likely not need "proof" that she's in contact. Rather, you'll need proof of her recommitment 2 you.


a/a, if you've confronted her, she likely will go underground. And though you won't have certain knowledge of what's wrong, you WILL KNOW that things aren't right. Trust me.


I'm not sure I get this. I think you should try 2 make her feel safe enough that she CAN discuss OM (her experiences and feelings about what's happened, even if it means talking about him specifically), so that YOU can feel safe confiding in her without fear of OM getting a play by play (this has been an on-going problem for me, but I don't know whether it was for you or not).


And what did you say in response? Look, I know how hard it is 2 come up with a response (not a reaction, not a retort) on the fly when you get asked something like that. "Recovered CAers" on here know what I mean when I say that you will get 2 a point, once the ice has broken in a civil manner, that it will be easier 2 engage in conversation after a 2uestion like that. I just found that out myself recently. But I believe that it takes different lengths of time (and different buttons pushed) 2 get each BS 2 that point, commensurate with the length of the A and the aftermath of D-day (instant NC versus protracted plan As). When you shed your CA skin, you'll be amazed at how good it feels 2 be able 2 have a convo around 2uestions like that.


Why not? Not that I'm suggesting that you threaten 2 leave. But why isn't it on the radar, especially at this stage when your S is about 2 start a life on his own? I have a son just starting college, and a D that's now M'd. She and her H are renting our guest house, and we're sponsoring him for his US citizenship. We have this historic mansion 2 finish restoring, and yet I still will keep leaving on the radar screen, depending on what my W decides 2 do, once she decides. I am very patient, but I'm less and less needing a disfunctional M with time. Life is short, and I'm old! I still want 2 keep our M 2gether, but not at all costs. It's got 2 be a lot better than it has been.

-ol' 2long

TMCM, I remember very well you telling me that woman try to keep an emotional tie to former A partners. This seems very much at work here. I suppose what I mostly mean by "before it's too late", is before I give up on US. I am not likely to have an A and I thank you for the reminder.

My W sometimes jokes about my brother having another A. I am tempted to tell her that "I don't think he could inflict that much pain on another human being again" One day I'll speak, I promise.

CV, I basically completed IC. He told me we were finished if I agreed. He told me I am slightly ADD, a touch of narcism and I get the idea he felt I was unforgiving and unwilling to let go of the A. But he did point out very quickly that he felt alcohol was the biggest problem in my M. that was extremely perceptive in only our 3rd meeting. W & I drink too much. But I assure you I suffer from no self esteem issues. She can't hurt me with LB's anymore. She used up her best stuff and I weathered the storm.

I think 2long understands the part that my W hurts too. She can't seem to let go. And I really do both understand and empathize with that. Glad you're free to post for a while.

WOE

2long, I'm not really considering leaving. We spend an inordinate amount of time together and try not to fall over laughing but are best friends. I have 3 children - 18,16,12.
The M is certainly stuck in neutral.

To answer your question I did confront, only by saying I see your calling x again. She asked how I knew and I told her I checked her phone. Which is true. That's what sent me checking her bill online. I also told her that she had been in love with different men for the last 7 years. Since then I have been a bit distant and she has been a bit melancholy. So this stuff sinks in then we go to neutral corners until we can move on without ever discussing it further. Therein lies the problem. You are right about me being CA. But I also have the bigger problem of viewing W as a china doll who would simply crumble under what she percieved to be any kind of criticism or attack. It's a balancing act. But as you know all of my posts are extremely respectful and if I can convey that same respect in a discussion I think we could make progress. I asked her to watch the movie the "Notebook". She responded that she would be too upset because that is the kind of love she always wanted and will never know. It's a beautiful movie if you haven't seen it yet.

You echo my sentiments of wanting to hold the M together but not at all costs. Post d-day that was the M.O., but not now. I will no longer accept certain things and one of them is for her to bring OM into our home why I quietly play the fool to keep her reputation in tact. On the bright side she and I our going to join team. Not my first choice but it this is spelled out very clearly in HNHN so I have to give it my best. Maybe we can branch out into different and more family freindly groups once I get to know the lay of the land. But I really appreciate all you heavyweights coming out to visit me and I really will try to formulate a respectful plan to discuss things with her.

WOE

Just lost a lengthy reply and can't duplicate it. Sorry to hear of your recent discovery. I hate this new forum, and it's probably the end of my participation unless they fix it so I don't have to become a computer expert.

Best wishes,
SD

I'm back, and I know I'm logged in. WOE, if you don't mind me asking, why does your IC think you have a touch of narcissism and are unforgiving. I'd be curious just because I see the exact opposite in you. I knew your W drank too much, but not you. I'm really not trying to be nosy here, I just care and am trying to figure out what's going on. Hey, if I spend all my energy on you and your W, than I can forget about H and I. What a plan!

This is what I can't figure out with you WOE. I feel like we have had numerous conversations over this past year with some similar themes. I'm sure many would say the same about me too. But since I'm concentrating on you now we'll just forget about me. What is this "china doll" thing that you keep doing with your W, yet you also keep saying you need to stop doing that? And what is with the deep comments, like about men she's been in-love with, then you both withdraw and go to your separate corners? What would happen if you both actually had a conversation about some of these deep issues? What's the pay-off here for keeping on doing what you are doing? I feel like something is missing? What does it do for you to have your W tell you she longs for Prince Charming to love her, when you are standing right in front of her? I am just curious what would happen if you weren't always standing right in front of her. Always there to catch her so she won't break? I am just very confused about the dynamic that is operating here. I've told H over these months that I'm not interested in being his good friend and roommate, who he has sex with. I am still not sure how he looks at me. I do know that at some point I will have to be convinced that I am not only his friend, but his lover again. He might feel that way now, but he hasn't convinced me yet. However, that is a whole other story. Got to go! CV

SD, thanks for taking the time to post a lengthy response. I am very sorry it got deleted. I am no computer expert but as I told CV, there is a post in GQ - Are You Tired of Being Knocked Off This Site (something like that). The directions are very clear and it has worked extremely well for me. I would really hate to see you go permanently. You've been a great source of support, friendship and more and I hope you break the code. I had similar sentiments until I found that post in GQ. Good luck whatever you decide and it has been my great pleasure to correspond with you over these past 2 years.

CV, OK I'll try to answer. There is certainly a double standard with men and woman regarding alcohol. But honestly W does drink much more than me; and even moreso lately. The IC only responded to my question about ADD because W always tags me with that. If something holds my interest I don't have ADD it's as simple as that. Boring people give me ADD.
As far as narcicissm I don't think so. I just looked it up in the dictionary and I don't think it fits me. I'm not in love with myself I'm just very sure of myself. Perhaps that confidence intimidates W but I certainly don't have a superior attitude.

The China Doll syndrome is that I am very self assured and W has none of this quality. Fairly low self esteem. So it is very hard for me to find a way to tell her how bad she is hurting me without coming across as unforgiving for the ONS. That's only partly true because she know's what she's doing is wrong and can't/won't stop. There is surely an undeniable pull to this OM. And remember he is such a loser it may boost her self esteem.

Regarding the Prince question I turn it into a joke when it comes up in front of other people. I will retort "where are all the proper men" or make a reference to Oprah's boyfriend Steadman and things like that. It's all fantasy that she sees in movies and TV. It's more a power struggle than anything else. Right after d-day she told me "your a great guy and you know it don't you". I told her yes I knew it and that she is a great girl. It doesn't fill my head to hear I'm Mr. Wonderful unless I hear it from her.

And what would happen if I wasn't right in front of her? She would be in deep, deep trouble. CV, I really believe this. She told me shortly after d-day that if she left me it would all be down hill and that she knows that. She does not work outside the home so financially she would struggle.
But we're getting away from the A and more to her emotional problems. The one underlying theme in her both sober and drunken laments is that she doesn't have the kind of love she wants, deserves and imagines. Bottom line is that that is romantic love and for a 20 yr. marriage she has much more than most.

Neutral corner question; I suppose neither of us wants to hurt the other one because there is mutual love and respect. But we both understand that we have hurt each other immensely by past actions. My IC told me that we were "dependent" but not "connected" to each other. I believe the words and assessment were similar. But what he was saying was that we lack intimacy. And that is it in a nutshell. You CV have very, very good friends but you can't talk to them like this. We have almost no one that we can talk to like this. I suppose I only learned the difference through this process.

In summation, you to some extent and me need to create this level of intimacy in our M's. I don't know if you ever had it but I know I never did. And I never knew it existed or was missing. CV, on Saturday morning I had tears leaking down my face at the new discovery of her cell phone calls. She asked if it was something on the TV and I said no. Neither of us pursued it any further but she KNEW. Because I had mentioned the fact that I learned that there was continued contact the previous day. The bottom line is I need to break through this barrier that through the years we've errected. I suppose that is the underlying problem. It's not the A as much as the fact that we can't talk about the A. The biggest challenge I have ever faced and I can't mention it to my partner without it being percieved as an attack.

WOE, I just had the chance to read your post. I can't respond now but I will. I'm thinking what's going on with H and I right now might help you in some odd way. Thanks for being so open and honest. You are right in thinking that the sharing we all do on MB has to at some point be with our Ss. Later! CV