I don't understand you adulterous creeps. How do you live with yourselves? I've read many "betrayers'" posts & threads, and seen no true remorse! You all feel sorry for yourselves, that is NOT what remorse is! <P>You betrayers are all so eager to justify your betrayal with huge lists of perceived faults and shortcomings of your SO. "They did this, they did that - or didn't," so that's why you betrayed. You know what - it's not your SO's fault, it is YOUR fault you had an affair! <P>All you creeps seem to feel is sad that you are not forgiven, sad that you were caught, sad that you had to end it with the OP, frustrated that it is taking so long for your SO to "get over it." Well, you know what? NOTHING you will ever do in your entire life will make up for your betrayal. Your marriage may be salvaged, your SO may choose to stay with you, but you ALWAYS will be the one who went out of their way to dishonor and betray those whom you supposedly loved most and who loved you most. Your SO will never "get over it" - they might learn how to deal with it, and they might not. It is never your SO's fault if they choose not to forgive and not to reconcile, it is (and was from the beginning) your - the betrayer's - fault.<P>If you don't want to be in a relationship, walk away. If you LUST after somebody else, be honest with your SO and break off your relationship with them instead of breaking your SO's heart by cheating on them.<P>THINK ABOUT IT:<P>How can you lie every day, every minute, every second, about the affair?<BR>How can you lie every day about how you feel about your SO? <BR>How ca you lie every day about how you feel about the OP?<BR>How can you lie about everything that you supposedly hold closest to your heart every single moment?<BR>How can you betray those who love you? <BR>How can you betray your SO to whom you CHOSE to make a vow of fidelity and honesty?<P>...and for the OP out there: <P>How can you live with yourself knowing you are destroying somebody else's life, their marriage, maybe ruining/scarring some kid's childhood? You would have to be some kind of inhuman monster to be able to justify this sort of relationship, to selfishly please yourself at the expense of others, selfishly satisfying your need for sex or emotional support or whatever it is you told yourself you needed - paying for it with the pain of others, knowing full well what you were doing to other people!!! How can you look at yourself in the mirror at all???<P>You are not forced to live a life and deceit through anybody elses' actions - you choose to act the way you do. I don't understand how anybody would willingly choose to devestate the spirit of ANYBODY, let alone those who love them most in life. <P>Human beings are fragile, emotional, and sexual creatures but humans were blessed with an intellect which gave us the capability to make CHOICES. I don't understand how you betrayers could do what you have done - IMHO you have willingly chosen to give up everything worthwhile in the human spirit.<P>So tell me now, honestly, no lies or pathetic excuses - how DO you creeps do it???

WHOA - Rein back a little with the namecalling......<P>I am sorry that you are so angry and I hope and pray that your pain is not as strong as the anger is.<P>Elixir, you have made some good points but I'm afraid that they will not be noticed through all the disrespectful words surrounding them.<P>What is it? What has happened to make you so angry and hurt. You're right people are human and have control...sometimes they make mistakes or choose badly......Is it for us to throw others into damnation because of those "human" faults?<P>Not everyone puts careful and considerate thought into doing or saying something ahead of time. It's not a good practice......but it happens!!<P>I, for one, wish it didn't but all I can do is make sure of it for myself.<P>Please Elixir, whatever the cause of your lashing out......tell us and it will help.<P>There are a lot of wonderful people here both betrayed and betrayers alike. Some Betrayers are more repentative than others and are working very hard to improve themselves and their marriages/relationships. Just like the fact that there are some betrayed people who work through the pain and anger and can look at themselves and learn to remedy their part in the breakdown of the marriage. <P>EVERYONE here is learning!!!! EVERYONE here is trying to work through their pain, whether it is for what they did or for what they received!!!!<P>People are all different.....God made us that way. Some deal well with problems in their lives and others do not. Some have high self esteem, others need theirs boosted. Some got stuck in some stagnant cycle and others have too much chaos going on.<P>But, Elixir.......we are ALL human!!!<P>We are ALL different.<P>NONE of us are creeps!!!!!<P>A BIG HUG to you and I will say a prayer that God help you through you anger and pain.<P>Sheba <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir,<BR> You know under your anger, I feel there must be a lot of pain. <BR> No there is no excuse for infidelity, but there are reasons. Most of us admit we failed to see the problems in our marriages before our spouse cheated. Or if we did see them , we didn't know how to fix them. <BR> Please try to uderstand that we are all here to try to make our marriages and ourselves better. And anger does have it's place in that process. But so does love and forgiveness, not only of our spouses but of ourselves too. And believe me when I tell you that while many spouses have yet to feel remorse for their actions and the pain caused by them, many do know , understand, and are sorry for that pain. <BR> If I cry at night, and I still do a year later, my h knows why I hurt. Yes it bothers him. He wishes I could just get over it, that we could pretend it never happened. But he knows that can't happen. And he feels helpless because he can't make my pain go away.<BR> You have a right to your opinion, and to post what you wish, however if you post with less anger you may be surprised at the responces you get. And please try to remember that we betrayed spouses for the most part love our partners deeply, and it hurts us to see them called such names.<BR> I'm not trying to make you angry, or to pick a fight, Just being honest.<BR> Why don't you post your story here and let us try to help you ?<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Darn it Sheba, stop posting when I do !!! lol<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Hi Deb!!!!!

It's posts like this that make me thank God my H cheated too. Elixir, that's right, I guess we're both creeps in your eyes, but as I've said many times before, I guess that also shows we're "meant for each other." You calling me a creep doesn't hurt me. Sticks and stones. But if it were my H calling me a creep, or even thinking it, you're right, we'd never make it. Nobody wants to be married to a creep. But, also, nobody wants to be married to someone who thinks they're a creep either.<P>Yes, there are some betrayers who come onto this forum and do not express remorse, but the majority do. The majority realize we've made mistakes, and we are not trying to justify but trying to understand how it happened. We are trying to rebuild and repair our marriages. We are grateful for our second chance to have a happy, successful marriages. That's where most of us are.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you don't want to be in a relationship, walk away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those are very good words to the wise. So, my question to you is, if you are convinced that your spouse is a creep and you will never forgive, why would you stay? Why would you continue to put yourself, and your spouse, through years of unhappiness and torment?<P>That's where forgiveness comes in. If you are to remain together, it's really the only way. Otherwise, both spouses are doomed to a life of unhappiness and torment. Sure, you'll be punishing the creep, but you'll also be punishing yourself and preventing yourself from having a healthy, happy and successful relationship.<P>As I see it, there are only two ways spouses can win in these situations: 1) To forgive each other and work hard with your spouse to correct the mistakes of the past, ensuring a happy, healthy, successful and loving marriage in the future ... OR... 2) To LEAVE your spouse and start your life over again hoping that next time, if there is a next time, you will be able to have relationship(s) that are healthy, happy, successful and loving. The choice is each of ours.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi, Elixir, I'm glad you're here. Sounds like you need to be here with a family of people who want to help. I have to agree with Deb and Sheba and I'm so very sorry for your pain.<P>I have to disagree with you, though. I do see remorse. Most all the betrayers who come here I've found to be good and decent people that I've grown to respect a great deal. They are also fighting the pain. They are taking responsibility for their actions and working hard to make ammends and restore their marriages. I have learned a lot about courage from these people. We are all human and have all made our share of mistakes - betrayed and betrayer alike - and we all share the pain of these mistakes. Please let us know more about yourself. Maybe we can help - at least be a sounding board for you to vent those frustrations and share the pain you're obviously going through. <P>My prayers are with you.<P>Lori

Elixer - I add my agreement to those who have posted above. I am one of the "betrayed", but I have noticed that most if not all of the "betrayers" who post here DO express regret or remorse over what happened. The fact that they are here speaks volumes.<P>Many of them have been more helpful to me than they will ever know because they help me make sense of what has happened in my life. I love them all for their courage and acquired wisdom.<P>I don't think of them as "creeps". They have done something that has hurt their SO, but they realize that and are more than willing to say so.<P>Deb and new woman said it best, forgiveness is the key and name-calling is counter-productive. You are obviously in great pain and it WILL be helpful for you to stick around. You will find compassion and caring here as well learn more about what happened and why.<P>Just my two cents(actually just a half-cent after inflation)......

Wow, Elixir ... now THERE'S some information I didn't know.<P>FYI, I don't plan on forgetting anytime soon the devastation I subjected my family to ... but with you here to REMIND me ... well it's an enormous help. Now I know that it won't die in the past -- even if my H has forgiven me -- because I'll always have people like you around to shove my face into it.<P>Thank you for contributing to my healing.

Elixar- You really do have alot of pain but I truly believe it is mis-directed and I will pray for you. This board is for everyone, regardless of weather or not they are the betrayer or the betrayed. It's important to get feed back from both sides of a coin in order to understand both sides of the issue. If betrayers were felt unwelcome here who would we get to answer those questions so very deep inside us that we feel we can't ask others? <BR>You are most likely justified in your pain, you have a very real right to it. But this isn't YOUR betrayer on this board, it's an anonymous betrayer that is here for help as much as you are and is willing to help us as well. <BR>I will pray for your anger, I hope you can turn it around into something more constructive. By the way, I was the one betrayed so I really understand your feelings, especially since she was portraying myself as my best friend!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Im glad you found this place Elixir. You are reaching out and that is the first step to healing yourself. I believe you have every right to be angry...you are expressing yourself and getting out all those pent up emoitions...You need to do that. <P>My mother used to tell me (when I would have a "life crisis")...."You give yourself permission to be angry....cry, scream, punch a pillow, and feel completely sorry for yourself for the rest of the week, but then you need to heal yourself...you are the only one who can do it."<P>Is it hard? Probably the hardest thing you will ever face in your life. Will you lose control again and again? Definately! But every time you reach out the pain will become less.<P>I hope you stay with "us". We are all in this togather...You can learn alot from both sides..(betrayer/betrayed). The reason I came here is because I needed positive support. Constantly talking bad about spouse , telling my family and freinds what a jerk he was, feeling angry all the time, isolating myself from "everything", all that started to wear me down...I knew that the only way I could go was "up"...I didnt want to be down anymore.<P>Keep coming here...there may be a time when you will be able to help another lost and scared person...that is the best feeling.<P>We will all "lose it" at times, and we come here to "connect" and we come here to feel peace...even if its just for that moment....It feels good to get it out. <P>I know those words felt good for you to write...you have probably been thinking them over and over in your head...it will make you crazy to not express it. You want to hurt the "betrayers" out there with your words...You want them to hurt, you want your SO to feel all the pain and anguish you feel. I completely understand. <P>Now that you have gotten that out of your system ....its time to work on "you".<BR>

Elixir,<BR>I agree with every word you wrote, not only do I agree but in my opinion no one could have put the betrayed feelings I have in words quite as eloquently as you did. I did not feel from you the anger or bitterness that all other posters/replies felt. I felt that you stated the facts. And whether or not the betrayed forgive their spouses still does not change the facts that the adulters made the choices that ripped out the hearts of all their loved ones, children included (don't forget that the betrayer lived with deception and the fear of getting caught as well as gave precious moments that should have been shared with their spouse to the OP while the betrayed was holding the fort down how in the world could they have had what it took to be a good parent and a good spouse with their second life going on?) <BR>I commend the forgiveness that people find in their hearts I think that is wonderful. But that still does not change the truth of Elixir's post. It's not as angry as it is the truth. I for one thank you so much Elixir for sharing your thoughts.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by KWAS (edited September 24, 1999).]

The words are angry but the feeling is the hurt. The intense pain, How could the one you love do this to you. I hope your post is away of getting those thoughts of hurt and anger out of your head, away of expressing yourself. I only hope you didn't say them or let your S know how you feel. Why because I think deep down they already know them. I think that is why some of them leave they can't deal with the thoughts they are having. They feel we should have those same thoughts. If we let them know we do then we are confirming how they feel about themselves and what is the use. It is all over. I know we need a place to let off steam and this BB is a good place, and it may have felt good calling people names. I don't think anyone should call people names( however I have had a few choice names to call OW but I regret that I did so to her face. I am better then that.)But The hurt in your post should be directed to the one who hurt you not to people you don't even know. I know it is easy to lump everyone in to groups but that is fair. Dump your anger and hurt at your S here, direct it at the person who hurt you. Writing it down will help you put thing into perspective, then you can deal with the problems calmly. Anger never accomplishes anything only makes matter worse. <BR>To the others I know it hurts when we are called names but I think we can look deeper. This is a person who has a lot of hurt and anger and Elixir is not really lashing out at the betrayers but at the S. When we read something like this we need to step back take a deep breath realize who it is really directed to and help this person rather then taken offense. I know when my grandchild is angry and hurt he takes it out on me by kicking and screaming, I know he his really angry at me I'm just the person he is closes to at that time so I get it. BUt instead of being angry at him I take him in my arms and hold him tight and give him comfort. He calms down and can then go on with what he was doing. <P>------------------<BR>di<BR>

Thanks for your post SDS you sound very wise.

Elixer<BR>I understand your points. I don't think it is fair to make generalizations, however.<BR>There are a lot of VERY remorseful betrayers on this board. They are here seeking help.<P>There are also some people who seem to come across as "Holier than thou". <BR>I got a lot of insight on this attitude from the Forgiveness Workbook. We did a thread last week on the inferiority/superiority issues.<BR>I can see from this that some people feel inferior so they respond by acting superior. They justify, cry out about being attacked as a result of their own feelings of inferiority. I believe that this is a type of remorse although it doesn't come across that way.<BR>You might be interested in reading that thread. It helped me see things in a different perspective.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 24, 1999).]

Maya,<BR>You have come so far from where you started, in fact I hope Elixir reads every one of your posts so he understands the process it takes for a person to bring themselves out of something like this. You do not need to be reminded of what you have done. I hope this is just a case of a very fresh wound spilling out anger and pain. Until we hear the background we will not know. Don't let this be a reason to beat yourself up. Know that you are working hard and doing the right thing.<P>Elixer,<BR>People that are here betrayed and betrayer alike (well most of them anyway) are here to try to make a wrong right. Spend some time, vent and ask questions. There is a lot you can learn from people like Maya that are coming from the other side of the fence.......

Elixir, <P>WOW! That felt good just to read it like I was actually saying it... <BR>Hope you don't mind if I happen to use some of that.<BR>Oh how I have felt that same pain, but never put it down in words. I think I need to do just that, it might just help ease the pain. Thanks.

I believe this: <P>With the measure which one shows mercy and forgiveness to another, it will be shown to them.<P><BR>In the face of the blackest, most disgusting mistakes of my life, still I continue to breathe. It's amazing. <P>BTW, Elixir, I WAS exactly all those things you described.<P>"I've read many "betrayers'" posts & threads, and seen no true remorse! You all feel sorry for yourselves, that is NOT what remorse is!"<P>Please, if you have time would you outline what True remorse looks like. Since I feel it inside, I would like to be able to accurately express it...thanks<P><p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir;<P>I'm sure this "feels good" to people who are suffering the pain of betrayal. Why, I bet this kind of punishing, self-righteous judgement is almost as satisfying as actually having an affair!<P>Elixir, you're as much in "taker" mode here as someone actively involved in an affair. Me, me, me, me... Disrespectful judgements all over the place. What's very interesting to note is that in his years of practice, Dr. Harley puts people who carry the beliefs you espouse at HIGH RISK to having affairs themselves. Because you have such "high and lofty" morals, you perceive yourself as invincible to an affair and will not take proper precautions to prevent one from occuring.<P>If this is all you have to bring to "MarriageBuilders", I suggest that you refrain from posting. It'd be nice to lock you and Carlton in a room toghether...<P>

will try again.<p>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]