Last month, I took a vacation away from my family. WH stayed with the kids for 10 days but never bonded with them the way we'd hoped. Well, now it was the kids turn to escape. Even kids need to get away from wayward fathers.

The Plan was to visit DS#1 at his university in California. So, DS#2, DD, our 2 dogs and I hop in the van and pull a marathon, non-stop drive halfway across the country. 19 hours later, we land on planet California amongst the palm trees, bouginvillea and sweet breezes. We left the doggies with the college students and setup camp at a local motel.

Boy, did we have fun! We hit the beach with 2 dogs who'd never seen the ocean before. Ah, sand in their paws, dead seagulls to sniff. We found a new favorite place to eat clam chowder. We visited campus. I bought a case of two buck Chuck from Trader Joes. We prayed in the mission church and ate BBQ and fresh picked strawberries at the farmer's market. I cooked an enormous dinner for my kids, DS's roomates and motley crew of friends. It was a great way to meet the people who are important to my son. We talked and hugged and watched movies together. DS#1 even found time to go to class and study. We got ready to go home only to find that a major snowstorm was slamming our state. We decided to stay another day and squeezed in to DS's room for the night. The next day was a perfect, blue, sunny day, all the better for being a stolen day. We went to the beach together. Then I cook another big dinner and met more kids.

I spent a lot of time, A LOT OF TIME, thinking about WH while we were gone. I went from yearning to resignation. I missed him but the kids didn't. I would have liked WH there but it wouldn't have made it a better trip. He wouldn't have enjoyed the beach or the pool or meandering around the downtown area. He would have insisted upon driving. DS#2 would have been a spectator on the whole cross-country drive experience. WH might not have fit as well into the college house scene. He certainly wouldn't have been as patient with the poochies on the drive. I could almost hear his very words...

The night we were all squooshed together in one room, I remember laying there with this feeling of contentment. I thought the beings I loved best in the world (save one but these being the ones who return my love) were all in the same room together. Moments like that don't happen often. We enjoyed each other. Not only do we love each other but we actually LIKE each other. I send a prayer up that my kids find significant others who enrich this circle.

In the end, I think about poor, poor, silly WH. I appreciate the hardwork he's done to bankroll our adventure. I wonder what kind of loser doesn't want to share this wonderful experience with his family? Kind of sad. It probably tells me as much as I need to know.

Sounds like a great trip for you and the kids. Were in CA where you? I live in Los Angeles.

What a wonderful trip!

Well atleast WH has one redeeming factor, he brings in money eh?

Don't really know what you see in him, given that it sounds like he has always been kind of a stick in the mud even before he went wayward.

Too bad he couldn't get on some anti-depressants or have some therapy as he sounds like he has always been depressed. How sad, really.

Your kids are lucky to have a mom like you!

Grape:

Your trip sounded wonderful.

You are a lot like me. You love the sense of family.

Your H may be like mine. My H, I've realized, wants me mainly to himself, and doesn't value the sense of family other than being the provider.

Weaver, I've decided: "He is what he is". I chose him and he was that way. I can't make him into being somebody who he is not.

I decided to stay with my H. I love him with all of his frailties.

Grape, you have a choice to make. Realize that your children will be moving on to their own lives and families...

every time you are away from him...you sound happy, strong, and competant....

and then once back in the environment you try to take responsibility for his choices of remaining on the fringes on his families life....

and it is a choice...always has been and always will be...and even your 'acceptance' of this in the past years does not make it your responsibility...

It is and remains his loss...
the fact that he has supplied good financial resources is irrelevant ...though certainly a blessing...but one that you have honored with gratitude as you and we all should

the truth is that many many families thrive, succeed and flourish with less...and you grapegirl would still be the mom tothe children who are well grounded and and hold strongly on to core beliefs of family ...even with out his financial contributions....

his financial contributions are a bonus...but they are not the end-all....

when grapegirl is enough enough?

and while the decision is yours....
you need to ask the core questions that you easily ask when away from him...

can you see yourself in two months...six months in a year...still playing the role of being the responsible one that plays secretary to the childrens father to inform him of their activities...and expend energy to accomodate his attendance....?

I don't mean this harshly...
I mean this because you carry his burden and lighten his load and this blocks his ability to learn the value of investing himself in his childrens lives....

and you have in my opinion carried it long enough....

where are you grapegirl...
what are you holding on to?

ARK

ARK:

You said:



I think Grape needs to realize that he may never learn this. He may not want to learn this. He may not be capable of learning this. Not admirable but maybe factual....

Her choice is whether she wants to be with a man who is like this....

I bet he is no different than he was when she first met him.

I like Grape. I probably would not have liked her H even when he was not wayward. However, she did choose to marry him with all his faults.

You see I am struggling with this myself.....I know that my H will never be the type of father that I want him to be. How could he? He never had a good model. Well, at least, he seems to be trying whereas Grape's husband is not. Or is he? Is Grape's husband doing the best he can at parenting?

Doesn't she need to figure out how to be his wife as well as how to parent with him? A wife and lover and not a secretary as you say. Of course, he needs to do the same. He needs to be her husband. This will carry them on into the future and is what the children need. They need for their parents to be a couple.

Grapegirl...OOOPS EDITED>>>
I don't agree with MIMI...about people not being able to learn something...that is an action...and doesn't really even need to be a feeling...sorry

I don't agree with you...

while he may CHOOSE to never take the intiative to be responsible for getting involved in his childrens lives...

I do not believe it is not because he can not learn to do so...

I do believe he may not see value in it
I do believe he may not choose to do it...even ever

but it is an action.....

the act of asking about the children
the act of seeking information about what they are doing and involved in....

and the fact that he is a successful in his career we can pretty much deduce that he is capable of these things in his business world...no matter what it is...

these are the actions he needs to do..
even if he doesn't understand why...

and I do believe that to learn it
to figure it out
he has to do the work....

and not rely/blame/hold responsible anyone else but himself...
period

I would never ever underestimate any persons ability on this planet to learn..

change is scary
change is hard
change is uncomfortable..

but change is ALL about learning something different..

ark^^

Heavy, heavy sigh...everybody is right. I feel a whole lot stronger away from WH. There are a lot of difficult decisions to be made. Plan B is imminent.

What are the factors that make up a person? I met my WH when I was 18 and he was 20. Are we basically the same people we were then? I suppose I thought he had good core values. He came from a religious, 2 parent nuclear family. WH was a good student, good worker and had friends. We had fun. I know I've changed a great deal over the last 30+ years. I use to be really shy. While that reserve surfaces occasionally, I'm much more outgoing, a leader and a fun person. Was that all there when I was 18?

WH has choosen to not expand as a person. My dad was a controlling jerk. My mom the compliant housewife with too many kids. My role models for marriage and family were pretty crappy but that hasn't held me back. I learned to be a wife. I learned to be a mother.

WH doesn't have a clue about how do be a husband or a father or a friend. Do we say he has the inablility to be those things or that he chooses not to? Even before waywardness, I lamented that we didn't have many couple friends. WH didn't want to socialize. I suspected that people find him too closed off. Perhaps like Mimi, they don't like him. Didn't he think friends were a good investment? I've suspect that with OW, he has confused friendship with love.

I gotta go right now but more throughts later.

mimi,

I admire and value this about you. I do believe that this is part of making a lifelong commitment to a marriage.

However I sense that GG's sitch is different. And her WH left her emotionally as well as her children. And now he is with another woman, so she has been released from the choice she made 30 years ago. (and would be anyway given his choice to abandon his children, in my opinion even if only emotionally)

GG has such a sense of life and is 50 years old. It would be wonderful to see her share the remainder of her life with someone who can share her joy of life and people with her.

If she goes to plan B as Ark suggested it may be the catalyst which prompts her WH to make drastic changes in his view of life and people. And maybe it is a lifelong depression but even so it has been his choice to remain in that state.

And if Plan B does not illicit any positive changes in him, so be it. GG will have done everything in her power and move on knowing this.

I would bet her children don't want her with her WH anymore. They are now older and would probably love for their mom to be happy with a man more suited to making others happy, in sharing joy.

To me this is what life is all about, especially as our children move on in their lives.

I personally could not be with a man who doesn't love life and kids. I would have absolutely no attraction to a man like that, so my comment about what she saw in him was just my own view.

Grape:

I really relate to your situation a lot, having been with my H since age 18. Like you, my H is the only man that I have ever been with. When he left, I was faced with starting my whole life over at age 50. The thought of being with another man was scary. I still can't believe what he did to me.

That being said, I have posted to you in the midst of trying to figure this all out for myself. I continue to deal with a lot of pain over my H's infidelity. You hear me wondering if I made the right choice in choosing to work on recovery of my marriage. I could have just given him up to the OW and started my whole life over again. I see you in the midst of making that choice.

I've been throwing out some issues that I have had to deal with and I am continuing to deal with, trying to be helpful.

I continue to be very much emotionally wounded by all of this. I don't know why. I get my feelings hurt by Ark's tone. I'm not trying to be controversial or anything. I'm just trying to share my experience because of lot of our pattern is alike. Your H seems to be a lot like mine and I am a lot like you.

I do know this. The FOW, in my situation, was totally accepting of my H. She also was attentive and affectionate towards him while I was focusing almost all of my attention, affection and time towards our children. He was in the midst of a MLC and needed me. In my counseling with Steve Harley, he understood my H's position after talking to him and Steve instructed me on being more of a wife to him. He told me that I had not invested enough time and energy into being a wife and that I needed to do this. I am sure that is what I learned from him as a MB coach. Perhaps you mignt consider consulting with Steve.

More later.....

It's been a week of mixed messages. Is this a marriage, a partnership or a bad habit.

When I was agonizing over whether to start our drive back to snow country, I called WH. We've done many cross-country drives together. I urgently wanted his opinion. I left messages on his work, cell and our home phone. 24 hours later, he called me back. As you can see, his concern for his family was overwhelming.

On the other hand, he decided, without reminder or proding, to fertilize the lawn before the big storm. He willingly fed the cat. I asked him to re-chaulk the showers (since they'd been dry for a week) and he did it. However, he always retreated back to his apartment.

When I try to pin him down about the future, WH is characteristically avoiding things. Like any mom, I'm at a point where I need to start planning the summer. Point blank, I've asked him what he thinks. Should I get a job? Find summer care for DD? Think about camping? He doesn't seem to see past his nose. It's like as long as we don't infringe upon his compartment of work, apartment and OW, it's just like he's on an extended business trip. Money is in the bank. Contact is minimal. Business as usual.

What I want for the next 5 months is a little space and a little peace. I want to have a good summer with my kids. DS#2 graduates this spring. DD is becoming a teenager and things will change next year. Last year, our summer stunk. I want to spend time with the kids. Swim, camp and have a lot of fun. In the fall, I plan to start school. If I'm not in school full time, I will probably find work. I want a newer, more reliable car. WH doesn't seem to care one way or another. All he says is that he will always take care of us.

I'm going to do things for myself. I'm going to do the things I've wanted to do but didn't because of Mr. Cranky. There are so many things he didn't want to or didn't have time to do. The kids and I are going to do the Memorial Day fun run in our town. I'm going to go white water rafting this summer. Cooking for DS's friends made me realize how much I like to cook for other people. I'm going to invite people over for dinner. I'm planning an adult night at least once a week. In June, I have a big birthday coming. I'm going to do it large. I'm looking beyond my kids into doing more for me.

The family secretary thing is ending. I'm not telling WH what's going on with the kids. I'm not telling him about softball games or graduation plans. I'm planning a party and maybe he'll show up. I didn't tell him any details about our trip to California. My FIL's family is having a big reunion this summer. We've been to the last 2. At Easter dinner, his parents kept talking about us going. What I later told WH is that I would not go with him. The kids need to see their relatives but if WH is going, I won't. I'm not playing at being a couple. The funny thing is that his relatives keep asking if I'm coming but not him. I'm going to take the kids camping. I'm going to re-tile that shower and plant a beautiful garden.

So, I guess this is a slide into Plan B. I don't like the person I am when I'm in contact with WH. Needy, whiney, hurt about his defection and OW. Unfortunately, it's like my DS says, "Mom, Dad is just a wallet and he likes it that way."

You know what? I kind of admire you. You've been able to establish more of a life for yourself without your H than I did. I couldn't really find a way to live without my H. My children were at a place where they were moving on with their lives and I was lonely.....

I would suggest, though, that you actually do PLAN B as recommended by the MB SYSTEM just in case you want to recover your marriage. Without doing PLAN B and PLAN B Letter, he will rationalize your actions as further justification for continuation of his A.

mimi...there is no intent here to hurt your feelings...nor is there any tone....

sorry bout that....


I do not agree that people can not learn new things...
lots of people who were emotionally closed up... have learned to express emotion ....

that's not personal against you...and it's a good thing...

and while I don't deny that WS have needs.... the neglect of those needs don't justify an affair ever...
and the BS needs to wary of excusing a WS CHOICES....
based on their own perceived failings...in meeting a WS needs...

I am almost surprised at the stark difference on grapegirls post while speaking of being away from direct contact with her WS...and how quickly the tune changes once back in the home...

questioning HER actions herself...
questioning and doubting her choices...when his remain consitantly aloof and without real commitment or emotion to anything....


he does the easy tasks..feeding the cat....yard work etc...but his asking about the children is like teeth pulling....

ARK^^

We were in SLO. Geeze, it takes f-o-r-e-v-e-r to drive across LA. Even at 3 a.m., there was a ton of traffic!

When I look back, I do see a difference in the tone of my posts. I noticed that the further away I travel from WH the less anxiety and distress I feel. Once I'm back in town, the gloom decends.

I need to start making decisions soon. Plan B awaits.

I am not saying that people cannot learn new things. I'm trying to point to the need to be sensitive to how hard it is to change. If we could just say, "I want you to change" and expect a person to do so, there wouldn't be a need for psychotherapists and counselors.

Ark you said:



Whoops! I surely don't want to be misconstrued as thinking an A is justifiable. However, I do believe in the MB viewpoint that the BS needs to take a look at the environment that made the A possible. I believe that folks need to be personally accountable for their shortcomings. That includes BSes as well as WSes. I agree with you that our shortcomings are NO EXCUSE FOR OUR WRONGDOINGS!However, our failings have to be acknowledged in order for us to make the changes that you are speaking about.

Right now, GRAPE's H is in the FOG, addicted to the OW. That's all he cares about. That's all he wants.

I would be wondering, though, what needs the OW is meeting for him.

I wonder what WH gets from OW all the time too. Love, admiration, I'm not sure I have a clue. Maybe she makes him feel like he is exciting and interesting. A man who works 70 hours a week, has no hobbies except work, very little conversation and doesn't want to speak is hard to find interesting. I do try. I guess I have a problem with dumbing myself down. It's hard to listen to someone who is not talking. I'm not really sure just how much he sees OW. A woman with 3 kids, a job with a company that demands a lot and a 2 hour commute can't have a lot of time. I would imagine that they meet when she doesn't have her kids. I would also imagine that she has to arrange everything.

What I really think is that WH's primary need right now is to detach from everything and everybody. He wants to control his interactions with everybody outside of work. He wants an empty, sterile apartment. He wants to sit down to a simple breakfast with no noise. He wants no demands on his time. He'll do things if you ask but only if he wants to. He wants to put in his 12-14 hour days without interruption. He wants to go out after work and have a couple beers with acquaintances and then leave. Notice, I didn't say friends and I'll bet he never organizes it. When he wants to know about his kids, he gets the information second hand through me. Or at least he used to. How does he fill his time? I don't know.

MLC? Depression? A chemical imbalance? A need to be free of all the encumbrances of life? An OW he can visit, screw and then go home? Hit and run family time on holidays?

It's going to be very sad for him someday.

GG:

Are you sure about this characterization of him now? Are you sure he's sitting around in the sterile apartment? Are you sure he's continuing to work 12 hour days? Are you sure? Is he trying to have more fun now?

Do you want a divorce or a reconciliation? Do you think that you are still in love with him?

Everytime I ask myself that question, I freeze up. I literally go cold and dead inside and come to a standstill. Do I love him? Yes, I believe I still do. Do I want to reconcile? Yes and no. I do not want the same marriage I had before. Can the marriage I want and WH come in the same package? I don't know. I miss him more than the kids do. I'm beginning to feel that they feel that as long as he will support then, they don't need a dad.

If there is anything I know about my WH, it is that he is still working a lot of hours. He goes in early, works late and then has conference calls into the night.

The rest is an enigma. Nobody that I know goes to his apartment. DD was there last month and said that it looked about the same. I didn't ask her much. WH did say that there was a guy from work who had just relocated here. The guy has been living in the same apartment complex for 2 months but WH has never told him he lives there too. Interestingly enough, he chose to live in a gated community.

In the end, I know nothing. He doesn't say much. Much of what he does say is a lie. He's on and off at will.

I think I have to separate from this. As ark noticed, I'm different when I'm in contact with him. It drives me crazy. How do I reconcile the man who cheats with the man who wants to put his arm around me in photos? What about the man who pops by the fertilize the grass before the big snow storm but doesn't return an urgent phone call about traveling in the storm for 24 hours? Is there any hope?

The goddess says, Go Plan B!

I agree with the need for PLAN B. However, there are important questions you need to ask yourself.

You said:



That's appropriate.

Do you want a HUSBAND or a FATHER for your kids? You are a WOMAN who needs a MAN. That should be the primary consideration now. Is your H the man that you want? I would think so. Your children will be going away and starting their own lives now. You are starting a different chapter of your life anyway.