I just realized today OW has me blocked from her IM user list. Not that I really ever IM'd her. When I got signed on today my son's list popped up and showed she was on line, as was my husband at work. When I signed on under my name she did not show up on my list. So I went back on my son's.
It showed she had been logged on continuously for 2 hours.

I thought NC was in place. I don't think they have seen each other. Are they IMing? I don't know. I can't check it.
But I feel sick. I feel it in my gut. I suppressed my gut and my insticnt with this woman because I beleived in my husband for so long. I beleived when he said they were just friends, I wanted to. but I knew and I suppressed it. Its that same feeling.

I need to ask him about the NC,but I just can't bare to hear one more lie.AAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh! I hate this!

Sorry to hear your gut reaction is making you sick. You probably are not as wrong as you'd like t/b. Listen to the warning signs and plan your actions carefully.

How are you doing today?

L.

I am much better today. I'm taking care of myself. I had one he!! of a migraine for a couple days but its gone now.Yesterday was not so good I was pretty emotional. (not if front of WH). I asked him about NC and he said he has not had contact w/OW. I posted on a different thread yesterday, I was ready to give up. After a good cry a walk in the sun I collected myself. I am not ignoring my gut feeling. I will be watchful and present.

If I find there is contact..Plan B, my letter is all ready and I still have his suitcase packed in the closet.

After talking with WH later yesterday, I am pretty confident NC is in place. I think he is struggling with his demons. He has never talked about his feelings very much and has difficulty with "I'm sorry" for even small offensives, I don't think he has the words for something of this proportion. He generally is very critical of himself, to process all that he has done must VERY difficult.

WS' and Xws' like drama. The A is full of drama and sometimes it is that 'drama' is what they WS/Xws' miss the most.

Of course the BE' isn't into drama of that sort. Life itself is a drama without dilberately adding A type drama pain. No one except WS and OPs deserve that kind of pain.

Pay attention to your gut. Remember it is up to him to make you feel safe and secure. If instead he makes you feel sick, then you need to treat him the same as any other bad virus or bug. STAY AWAY and go get healthy.

Now in your case, what might that perscription to good health be?

L.

Thanks for your concern L.
I feel good today. The headaches and nausea are gone. I have to work today...but I think just a half day. I'm going to try to catch some of my son's baseball game. My (W?)H is in charge of Community Clean Up so he will be occupied all day, OW is in Texas with her H for the weekend.

Last night we rented an old Monty Python movie. We haven't laughed that much together in a long time. The kids thought we pretty much lost our minds. They didn't see the humor.

I was so relaxed and distracted last night I almost forgot to mail my income taxes!! I was climbing into bed at 11:15 PM and my angels reminded me of the taxes. I had to wake H (he was acting more like the H I knew) to sign the forms. I got dressed and drove to the post office that had midnight hours and delivered them with 15 minutes to spare. Talk about life's drama. H did offer to take them but somebody had to stay home with the kids. The only post office that was open was several towns away and he has no idea where it was and I did.

I'm looking forward to a good family weekend, maybe we'll take the dog on a walk to the lake after dinner and tomorrow we are going to a major league baseball game.

Laughing with my family is the best medicine I know of.

Good to hear you are feeling better and having a good weekend. Maybe your WS will see good times are a reality with your family vs the A drama.

Enjoy it and keep up the good work.

take care,
L.

Well, it was a good day. After the Community Clean Up project WH went to help a friend (male friend in favor of our reconcilliation) change breaks on his truck. That was at 3 PM at 7PM spoke with WH told him I had lasagna ready and offered to have the kids bring some over to him and his friend since they were in the middle of working on the truck. He said he would be home "in a little while" for dinner but to go ahead and eat without him. Good thing we did cause now its 10 PM not a word from him.

This kind of thoughtless behavior drives me crazy. He feels he is not doing anything wrong. And honestly I do not have a problem with him helping his friend fix his car and hang out and drink some beer. All I ask is that he touch base and let me know what's going on. He thinks he should be able to come and go as he pleases and doesn't want to ask "permission".

Thats what made it so easy to spend time with OW because he would have a legimate reason to go out then once he was out he would do whatever without a word to me. Any time I call him on it he says I smother him and don't trust him. Duh, yeah!

Fortunately through exposure all of his friends are now aware OW was more then "just a friend" and they are not supportive of the A. Telling my H how lucky he is to have me and the kids. The friend he is with tonight offered to change the locks for me when WH left home. I feel disrespected when he doesn't show consideration, major LB to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Its 11:45, he's still not home and I'm going to bed. I've locked the house turned the lights out,put a pillow and blanket on the sofa.

This is definitely an issue to be negotiated, but not tonight because he's been drinking and I have to get up for work in the morning.

How can he think this is ok? I swear its like he is intentionally doing things he knows bother me just to p_ss me off. I will not get sucked into his chaos or drama, I'm getting tired of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Boundaries. ID your boundaries and implement them. Do you know what they are?

L.

dear confused---i have been through this situation and orchid is right. its a matter of outlining your boundries and sticking with them...that also means sticking with the consequences!(that was the part i was horrible at....lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

it took me finally standing up for not only myself but our family and saying enough is enough---do the right thing or hit the bricks. it was not easy but having him trample my boundries was killing me.

and yes it took awhile...i was a slow learner..lol! but it has finally changed. he knew how serious i was and my consequences finally had teeth. i asked him to leave and we separated for a bit. he was only allowed back home when he proved to me our family came first and that meant my feelings also...if i needed a call...then dammit you call...your the one who set up those needs with your affair! slowly but surely he got it after testing and me standing strong with the separation.....this was all 3 yrs after the affair was over....remember, i was a slow learner!

i see you are in jersey---so am i...can i ask which county? im in warren. ive made some good friends on this board that have crossed over into real life...its great to have people who at any hour day or night understand this process...then add the in person thing when you really need to go and have coffee/lunch or shopping and just know the other person with you understands.....if you dont want to say its ok.

Ok, stupid question how do you enforce boundries? With the kids they don't do homework or clean their room they lose their gameboy or computer for a while.
In the past BAB (Before Alien Behavior), WH was always very considerate and thoughtful. So now if I ask him to touch base during the day, he feels like I'm spying on him and becomes more gaurded. If he doesn't do what I ask, he just shrugs his shoulders "I didn't think about it". So what's the consequence. He doesn't care if it hurts my feelings.

Its been busy I have lots to post and lots to ask but I have to go make dinner and get DS to baseball game.


I'll post again after everyone's in bed.

To me it was totally unacceptable for him to not be home or let you know anything at 11:45 at night. I would definitely assume contact or bad behavior. Can you find out from his friend if he was truly with him that late? He may have been on a phone with her??? Do you have access to cell records etc. Does he have a phone card? Even if OW was away it isn't a sure thing that they weren't in some sort of communication somehow. Her H may have fallen asleep and she went out for a walk... OR he could have gone to a bar and been behaving badly out of his guilt. My H did that towards the end of his last A. It was out of his 'normal' character.

Your H doesn't seem to be displaying real recovery behavior and attitude. Trust your gut and decide what you will and will not allow in your life.

philly isnt far---only an hour---if i get out that way i'll let ya know---we can do lunch!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

if he doesnt respect the boundries then you should seriously consider plan b....that is what i was forced to do and it turned it all around....i got tired(three years after d-day) of waiting for him to hit rock bottom....I BROUGHT THE BOTTOM UP!!! he broke and stretched every boundry until then----not since...he knows the biggest thing i learned from HIS affair was......i learned i didnt need him to live...i choose him to live with!!!!

Where to begin? Let me back up to Sat night.....

I went to bed at 11:45...WH stumbled in around 2AM! I know he was locally with his friend because thank God had they sense not to drive. When they ran out of beer at friend's house they walked to local pub where they drank and played pool til 2 AM.(confirmed) BAB (before alien behavior)H would drink occassionally socially maybe 1 or 2x a year great really drunk. We would literally have to throw away beer because it had been in fridge from one Christmas to the next.

About 3 years ago H joined men's softball team and started socializing with team and drinking after games on weekends. OWH was on the team thats how they met. This last year he started drinking every weekend hanging out with OW and circle of friends. Last summer before I knew about MB, he started with the alien speak, "I'm not happy", "I thought I would love my wife passionately, but I don't", "I'm happier with her then I am with you" "The house isn't clean enough"
"The house is too clean" One time I caught him rubbing ice on her thigh in the middle of a party at my house. I hit the roof."you're too up tight, I was just flirting. It was fun." I would get little tid bits of information from him and no matter how he denied it I just KNEW. Then when he was sober I'd confront him and he would deny, deny, deny and tell me I was crazy. He wouldn't want to be anywhere near me and actually pull away from me. This was about the time he stopped kissing me. I did my own form of plan A except it included panic attacks which came from me trying to ignore my gut.

Anyway this last Sat night instead of sleeping on the couch he came up to bed to cuddle and KISS, he called me "baby". He hasn't called me that in 2 years. We stayed up til 5AM and I ended up with a hickey, enough said.

Sunday
I had to work. He had to do Clean Communities. We had tickets for Phillies game that night 8PM. When I got done work he was home with the kids where he had been since 11AM,
DD said "Daddy has been taking alot of naps today." I woke him up around 6:30 and told him he had time to get in the shower before the game. He said he didn't want to go to the game because it was a late game and he had to get up early the next day. I told him that we had the tickets for a while he knew exactly when the game was and if he had not choosen to get so drunk that it wouldn't be such a problem. I said I would take the kids because they had been looking forward to it but I didn't feel comfortable driving into the city at night with the kids by myself. I said we were trying to rebuild our family and I had no intention of missing the game. He got up and took a shower. He wasn't thrilled but he did go to the game.

Monday
We IM'd while he was at work. He wanted to go over finances. We just refinanced the house and we are planning to buy RV for family trips and make repairs on the house so we can sell it and MOVE!!!

Finances have been one of our problem areas. I have always handled the bills. He never really asked questions about what was spent. I'm not a real big shopper but money goes between kids, bills, food, remodeling the house and lets not forget all those parties we hosted. Part of the problem is I always just took care of things and he didn't know what our budget was. So when he wanted a riding mower I made it work, you know borrow from Peter to pay Paul. Last year he started to want to know where the money went. He was very upset we didn't have as much put aside for the kids college and savings was not what he thought it should be. So as we were going over the budget I admitted how I should've been more open with the finances and make him aware of any trouble spots. And doing a budget together and agreeing on where the money was going was a step in the right direction for rebuilding trust in me to handle the finances.

I told him there were other trust issues we needed to work on like contact with OW. I asked him if he had a plan to avoid contact. Like what would he do if she called, IM'd or emailed him, or if he ran into her locally. He said "I don't know I don't have a plan." I asked how could he prove he had NC. He got very defensive. I asked him if he did have contact would he tell me about it, he said he didn't know because it would bring up one of "these" conversations.

He told me that he has notice a pattern with me and his friends. When we met we both lived about an hour away he lived in Bucks County, PA and I had an apartment and worked in the Princeton area. My family lived down where we are now. On a trip home to visit my folks I showed him a house that I had always loved. It had been abandoned for 30 years.He fell in love with the house too. Even before we got married we bought the house for $1 and started renovating it. After we got married we moved down here and settled in that house....His take on the story is that when we got married I made him move here and leave all his friends and family behind (they were 1 hr away and visited very often. He decreased contact with them when he started hanging with OW and frends.) And now I'm making give up a new circle of friends. "It not just one person your asking me to give up its all the other friends in the circle too."
I took a deep breath and reminded him that those people had been my friends too, and the kids' friends and that his behavior and crossing the line with OW is the cause of losing the circle of friends.

I'm sorry this is so long and now I am rambling but now thats pretty upto date and I can't remember what my questions were. I'm still trying to catch up on MY sleep for the other night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Ok, MY plan. I think I need to clearly state my expectations.
I'm thinking of writting a letter and having him read it while I'm there or reading it to him and then giving him the letter. When I try to talk to him he either says nothing at all or twists my words. I want to make sure the message is clear.

M,
I would like to work with you to make our marriage better then it was before. One of the main issues we have is trust.

I do not trust you and I would like to have that trust rebuilt.

No contact means NO CONTACT with C. If there is any kind of contact (phone call, IM, email, visual or even smoke signals) whether it is accidental or intentional, I need you to let me know about it. Your resistance in doing a no contact letter sent the message to me that you are not willing to close the door on that relationship. If you not tell me about contact I will take that as a sign that the relationship has restarted and you are trying to hide it from me.

I need you to call me from work when you are leaving.

When you go out, I need you to tell me where you are going and what time you expect to be home. If that changes, call me and let me know whats going on.

By volunteering this information it saves me from having to ask you and shows me that you would like for me to trust you and you are willing to earn it.

I will not live in limbo again.

Your relationship with C is not something we can sweep under the rug. It not something I need to just "get over".
And its not something that I need to beat you over the head with for the rest of our lives. In the story of our lives I would like it to be a chapter that put a twist in the plot that we have to figure out and not a tragic ending.

I would like to hear your thoughts,
K



They are both on line again this morning. It seems like as soon as she takes the kids to school she is back home on the computer.
I just don't know if OWH could handle it if he finds out the scope of their relationship. He is in C, she won't go. I'm looking for a C and trying to save enough money to pay for it, our insurance has a big deductible for C.(WH doesn't want to go either.)

Is there a whole parade of red flags or is it my imagination? I keep hoping its nasty withdrawal. Should I go ahead? Should I wait? I'd rather go to Bermuda for a month and forget about the whole thing!

Just a bump.....looking for feedback. I was thinking of calling OWH at lunch today

you had better make counseling a priority and a dealbreaker for this. none of the ws's ever want to go....but it is needed in order to work through all this. do not let it slide....make it mandatory.

the other stuff with calling when leaving work is good---i went as far as to say from the work phone and not your cell phone...caller id showed me where he was.

Why haven't you already exposed it to OW's Husband? I believe that exposure is good. If her Husband cares then it is possible that he will put an end to possible contact. EXPOSE! EXPOSE! EXPOSE!

"If WH contacts OW then its plan B. Whats in between?" That is a really good question. I wish I had a good answer for it. Unfortunately, I don't.
I do think counseling is a good start. I am not for sure what is going on with my Husband. I do not trust him, but he knows that he has to sttend counseling every week.

Nikko and Stormy thanks for the reply,

Nikko we have tried MC a little in the past. It was before I had confirmed WH has having A and OW was not just a friend.
The C thought I was unreasonable for not accepting WH's female friend. "Do you think its reasonable for your not to have any women friends? That is an unrealistic expectation."
I said "I thought it was reasonable that I should be the most important woman in my husband's life not his friend."

WH was not honest w/ his contribution in therapy...garbage in garbage out.

I found a C that I really liked but he doesn't accept insurance and his price is WAY out of my league. He has reccommended other C, that I am checking into.


Stormy, I did expose to OWH and the A supposedly ended. Both WH and OW promised NC. OWH check in with each other occasionally. He believes NC has been maintained and believes OW that she had 1 kiss with WH that happened 1 time, and WH was the agressor. The evidence I shared w/ OWH clearly shows it had been an established relationship although I have no evidence of sex.

If OWH would be willing to install a keylogger that would be great.

I doubt that your H would take it very well if you were staying out at a bar until 2AM without him.

Sometimes the consequences of an A is the loss of a whole circle of friends. That is especially true if those friends were at all enablers of the A. If some weren't then those can be retained. Do you have the book Surviving an Affair. If not , get it and have your H read it...or you can read it and highlight important passages for him to read or you to read to him. Ideally, he would be a more willing and active participant in recovery. Because he is resistant it pretty much tells you that you aren't there yet.

It sounds like they are on IM together, thus he isn't in NC, thus he is still in the A and it is not withdrawal. So affair partners will go to great lengths to prolong the A and the excitment and addiction of the A. They may try to go more underground. For instance, my H's former OW was wealthier that he and so provided him with a secret cell A cell phone which he kept hidden in his truck. He started locking his truck when he was home which he seldom did before.

It sounds like your WS is in cake eating mode. He can pull off some sweetness towards you which only confuses you.

Don't deny what is obvious. You are not crazy and your red flags are more than likely real.