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#1358009 04/15/05 12:24 PM
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Urg, lost it the first time, but here goes...

My FWW and I are about 2 months into recovery. Things were great for a while. We resolved a lot of issues, our communication was so much better, we were focused on each other and our needs. And then we had a few bad days - lack of sleep, the baby getting a triple-doozy (cold, double ear infection and pink eye all at once <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />). We were snapping at each other and then WHAM!

Right back to where we were. Her B*#$%ing and nagging all the time about EVERYTHING and me withdrawing and wanting to distance myself as much as possible.

Luckily having improved communication this only lasted about 2 days until we talked about it. But it was such an awful conversation. She had entirely reverted to her old negative thinking pattern and the more we talked, the more it turned into blaming and complaining. I tried not to LB, but she would twist everything I said which infuriates me so the longer we talked the worse it got. She was so negative and I felt like she was acting like a bratty child. So just like she used to, she got under my skin and I started LBing (gotta watch those DJs!) and we almost talked ourselves into divorce!

I let her calm down a bit and the I initiated the reconciliation. We are better now, not snapping and angry and withdrawn, but we're not great either. In fact I'm not quite sure where we are.

She wants to put the A behind us, and I have for the most part, but from what she was saying I know that she hasn't forgiven herself.

Is there anything I can do to help her forgive herself? Is this backsliding normal or does it indicate more problems? I felt like things were going well and now I'm all confused again.

Please help!

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Bump

FWS's is there anything I can do to help her forgive herself? She just keeps punishing herself.

BS's what did you do to help this along?

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Weekends are kind of slow, so I'm bumping your thread to see if any FWS can see it and reply to it.

TMCM

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Thanks TMCM.

I actually have some good response going on in the recovery forum on this topic too. Let me link it.

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Hi, I’m a FWW, and I’m replying as someone who has been married 30 years, whose marriage is recovering from infidelity, and also as someone who has stayed up many nights taking care of sick babies!

Sorry, but I haven’t read all your threads – are you still in MC? I peeked at one of your threads and it said you were going to C with your pastor. It would help you both a lot to learn how to communicate better. A counselor could help you “discuss” things in a more constructive manner. Also, both partners need to learn to look inward and find ways to improve themselves in order to help the M. As the saying goes – you cannot change someone else, you can only change yourself.

Two months into recovery really isn’t very long. Try to take deep breaths, take steps to keep yourself healthy, pray a lot, and try not to be too anxious for everything to be solved too quickly. Recovery is a long road, and getting along and being married is a long road, too, even without an A! One day at a time is all any of us has to get through. Some days, one second at a time is the easiest way to get through.

Also, when I was a young mother, some good advice I was given was never to feel guilty for being tired when you’ve lost sleep from taking care of a baby. The baby’s health is on the top list of your priorities. Rest when the baby rests. Don’t try to have constructive conversations when you’re both so stressed and tired.

When you see signs that a conversation is obviously going wrong, try to nip it in the bud before it escalates. I know that’s hard to do when everyone is so tired and emotional, but it would be worth the effort. Either change the subject, or even say, “This is not a good time to discuss this, we’re both tired. Let’s talk about something else.” Or suggest going for a walk or something to relax, if that’s possible.

As far as your W forgiving herself – it takes time, and she has to want to do it. There are many things she will keep reviewing about what she did, trying to understand it. She just has to work through it. Counseling really helps. Does she feel comfortable talking to your pastor about forgiving herself?

It might help her to read the Bible and review stories of people who failed and recovered - for example, read about King David and his mistakes, or Peter denying Christ three times. It might also help to re-read about Jesus forgiving the woman who was caught in adultery and told her “Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more.” Not to mention the story of the Prodigal Son.

Right after d-day, I read two books that changed my life. One was “When Godly People do Ungodly Things”, by Beth Moore. The other was “Daddy Loves His Girls,” by T.D. Jakes. If she feels up to doing some reading, and has the time, those might really help her.

God bless,

Rose


FWS-me BS-H Dday-8/2002 Recovering, still!
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Rose55,

I wanted to acknowledge your post but don't have time right now to reply. I'll be back!

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As so many cliches and addages appear to hold true....
to this post I add what I believe applies...

when the going gets tough the tough get going...

basically what you describe above is pretty typical for any and all married couples who perhaps for years engaged in argueing patterns that while did little to resolve conflict....they became known patterns...and familiarity breeds the known....which feels 'safe'

basically what you are saying is that when things got heated and a little more stressful...BOTH of you reverted back to the old patterns of button pushing and non-productive old communication techniques...

this is common
this is typical...

when real stress/crisis hits it is so very easy to revert back to the known....

down, I address this post to you because you are the one posting...and you nor I can't change your wife...so my post is directed at you alone...realizing though that her particpation in this pattern is relevant and not your responsibility.....

but...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
always a but...

but your role in change is to take responsibility for your partipation when the old patterns appear...
and to NOT engage in YOUR old pattern of participation as well....

you need to learn to identify the old patterns
and you need to learn to use what you know you control and can change...

so the second she twists your words you re-state your true meaning and then you walk away..
you don't power struggle it.
you don't attempt to convince her differently
you state your true intention and walk away....

it's hard to know what you mean by nagging...
but you need to change your approach as well... if it is a task you can complete...do it...lovingly and graciously...
because it diffuses her rant...and takes the focus off of you....

also you should acknowledge that change is scary and hard...
and expect her or even you sometimes to easily revert to the old way...and prepare yourself for it..

also know that sometimes even saying and doing the right thing in removing yourself from the non productive confict.. can and may cause her to escalate more...to up the anty....so to speak...because what you are teaching her is that you won't be treated a way you used to allow her to treat you..
and it will make her mad mad at first...
so prepare for that as well.
stay calm
stay rational


learn to see the crisis coming...sick babies are stressful..prepare that both will be tired and cranky....
and lighten the burden to the best of your ability...


being a girl (yes i am a girl... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) I can have and have been known to have my share of totally irrational rantings at poor Mr. Ark....who used to take it ...and then slowly but surely quit reacting to it....
I loved it when he reacted to it....(in the manner that irrational people love any attention)...cause it played in to me feeling like I had the upper hand in a arguement...and we could spin any and everything out of control...

well being that he is smart man...
he quit taking the bait....
and though there were times I escalated more...I more often found myself alone....with no one to rant to...and he would not engage me until I was calm...

and so I learned....that he was right and my rantings got us no where...
and so now they are pretty much a thing of the past...
and our resolving conflict is much better..
and he has learned that withdrawing and shutting me out does not work for us either...cause that makes me rant... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

but it is so so so easy to slip back to the old and known....

These days I get about a free ride of 30 seconds of irrational blaming and ranting..when we are stressed and in crisis...and even I myself can see how stupid I sound....

don't see this as a huge setback..
in my opinion it is normal..and blessed are all married couples that can and do identify things that didn't work in the past and really work at ridding their lives of them...
especially when the going gets tough....


also i hope you two are in serious marriage counseling

ARK^^

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...... Is there anything I can do to help her forgive herself? Is this backsliding normal or does it indicate more problems? I felt like things were going well and now I'm all confused again.

Please help!

U R already helping but you can't heal her. That is something she has to do for herself. U R giving her the 'right medicine ' or tools to help her but she has to digest it and use them herself in order for her recovery to work.

The short spasms of mis or non communication is NOT a cause for panic. It happens. The places of alarm s/b attitudes. The fact that U 2 are talking about it is helpful.

Encourage her by using 3rd party items like your child, yourself or other persons/objects, etc. I did this with my H, I would make a point by giving an illustration or relate an experience at work about someone who displayed a similar rotten attitude and since I was not accusing him of showing that rotten attitude, he responded in a normal manner, then later when I would ask to speak with him, he generally would let me and then I would remind him of that former experience and casually mention I had experienced similar with him. Sometimes if I had to tread too lightly, I would ask if he acted that way, how should I handle it? This allowed him the opportunity for him to really take a good look at himself. Also it allowed me to present my case in a less than hostile environment.

It worked. I still use that to this day and not just with him. LOL!!!

Hope this helps.
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Ark,

Thank you so much for your insight!

I am trying to identify the old patterns. We are in MC although in the last fight she said she didn't want to anymore - because she says we always talk about the exact same things (true, but exaggerated). She did agree when I pointed out that it helped to have a 3rd party to observe, keep things on track and no LBing, and to provide a structured forum for addressing issues. I haven't brought up the subject again since, so I don't know if stopping counselling was in the 1/2 she didn't mean or in the legit part. I have learned that in addressing that pattern, if I don't take her seriously in everything she says (no matter how absurd) she gets upset, but if I do take everything seriously she gets upset that I believe her when she says those absurd things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I know that I can't change her, but I know that she is trying to change herself, as am I, and as her H I feel it is my part to help her see what she cannot.

I am trying not to engage in my old patterns, but sometimes it sure feels like trial and error. And she knows how to get under my skin - does it intentionally sometimes.

And sometimes it is hard to know when a new attempt is working and making her mad in a positive-change way, or a negative one.

Thanks for the wisdom!

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Orchid,

Awesome technique! I have found that if I relate those things to her, I get a massive reaction (she uses the "best defense is a good offense" strategy). Maybe that will help her not get so defensive. I'll try it! Thanks!

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Rose55,

Thanks for your post. I think I answered your MC question in my answer to ark.

I don't think we feel guilty about loss of sleep for the baby, but we both get snippy when we're tired and we have these perfect convenient targets that are married to us. We have started making a conscious effort to not take out bad moods on each other, but to acknowledge them, accept them, and try to get past them. It makes them not so bad just by admitting to them.

I do try to nip it in the bud when things start going bad, but I'm not always successful. She usually thinks I'm being evasive if I try to stop the conversation, or worse, going back to my old pattern of putting it on hold and never resuming the conversation. Good old conflict avoidance.

We are in MC with our pastor, and go to a life group every week where we do some bible study and have a group support about all of our problems.

I can mention those books to my W, but she's not much for reading. I'm the researcher of the two of us. Maybe if I read one of them, she'd show some interest. Thank you!

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dbt,

WS reaction will always be out of the norm. Their norm is t/b weird. Ok so now that you know this, use it to your advantage.

WS' tend to be very critical of everyone but they are 'different'. I learned that by throwing the WS off the track even if for a moment, their santity can be reached. Do this enough and in time, you may see signs of your spouse trying desparately to come back.

JMHO,
L.

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I like that, Orchid.

I think that is what was happening when I would start talking about my faults and mistakes. It threw her off and forced a re-evaluation of perspective

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Hello, I haven't been on the board much the past couple weeks. I am so sorry that you are having a set back!!
As you know, I'm no pro when it comes to advice, given my "yuk" situation the past few weeks -- but:


Quote:
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Luckily having improved communication this only lasted about 2 days until we talked about it. But it was such an awful conversation.
------------------------------------------------------------

The good point here is that you realized it and you DID talk about it. I think we don't want to have those awful conversations but in daily life, I don't think they can be avoided. One would like to picture life all rosy all the time but after the shock wears off and reality sets in and both spouses are settling back into life, these ugly old ways tend to rear their heads!!

You are lucky that the two of you do talk. I'm still waiting for WH to initiate the talk after d-day #2. In my mind I'm still "done" but he is just going about life as if things are getting better and all will be swept under the rug. I haven't asked him in over 3 weeks if he's contacted OW and haven't spied, check cell phone or anything. I figure if he's going to do it, he's going to do it, no matter what I say.

Quote:
I let her calm down a bit and the I initiated the reconciliation. We are better now, not snapping and angry and withdrawn, but we're not great either. In fact I'm not quite sure where we are.



You must really have a good head on your shoulders. It seems that you really do think things through first.

Question for you. Do the both of you actually sit down and have a calm, rational talk or do you start that way and then end up yelling?

Do one of you say "we need to talk" and then proceed, or do you kind of plan your talks in advance?

I know that sometimes it is hard to talk when one spouse just says "we need to talk".

I should take my own advice here on this one but today I was thinking that planning a date and time in advance to talk may be a good thing. Then both spouses have a chance to think about what they will say.

My WH doesn't like to be surprised and wants a chance to think about what he will say. He's actually asked me to write it out on paper.
I don't know if something like that would help you.

I zipped through your thread pretty quick tonight, and you mentioned your students. What do you teach?

Hang in there!!


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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Glad to hear from you Suzy!

My FWW just wants to keep it under the rug too. I don't need to talk about the A much anymore, I feel like I have all my questions answered about it, but I do like to talk to improve the M. I don't check up as much on her email activity anymore either. You might still want to if you feel he's not being forthcoming though. Are you sure he's not? That'll sabotage any efforts you two are making.

We have a calm, rational talk if it happens naturally. If we set it up then it turns on the emotional charges. I have been letting the conversations happen naturally, but keeping a "list" of things I want to talk about and working it into conversation then. Writing does help, and putting it down in the forums helps me when I want to say it to her.

If one of us already has an emotional charge when talking, then it can turn for the worse. Gotta watch that one.

I'm a massage therapy instructor <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Met my FWW in massage school. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

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I see the point about not wanting to talk much about the A anymore. I am a need to know kind of person but honestly I haven't thought of any NEW questions in the past couple months.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The working on the marriage part is where I'm having a rough time. It aint happenin'!
I don't think my WH has it in him to work really hard on it. At this point theres nothing to sabatoge, lol.

If you can work things into the conversation, that is good! That is when my WH turns cold on me. We either talk about it and then it's done or we don't. period.

Massage therapy instructor huh? Your lucky wife!! Well, I suppose she can return the favor just as well.
My WH gives the worst massages of anyone I've ever met!!
He has a knack for not being able to find the muscles or knots but he sure can find the bones!! OUCH!!
I gave up trying and I found a good massage therapist at my chiropractors office. And she's wonderful - nearly puts me to sleep.


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I still think you two are on the right track - keep your chin up!!


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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We are pretty parable in the conversation. She'll initiate R talk as much as I do. In fact more since I have consciously made an effort to give her some space. That was a result of my "smothering". She likes the idea of building a better M than before. She knows for sure that I'm here on the forums now, and she doesn't seem to feel like I'm dwelling in the past once I told her it wasn't all about venting about the A. Maybe she'll come here too!

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I just posted on your letter, Suzy

My FWW didn't have her heart in it either, even up until after our first MC session. Our pastor asked her straight out "how bad do you want this?" and she wasn't sure. She said her heart wasn't really in it. It hurt to hear, especially after I had said I was committed all the way.

I think part of it was fear. If they give it their all and then fail, then it is a real failure, but if they don't give it much effort, then it's not such a personal failure if it doesn't work out. That and I know my FWW was punishing herself severely for her actions and felt it was unforgiveable. If they wholly engage in rebuilding their marriage, they have to allow that forgiveness and wholeness is possible again. I don't think they are ready to admit that in the early stages of recovery.

It sounds like your WH is really acting childish. He hopes that if he doesn't talk the issue will go away. Of course in the real world, ignoring the problem only makes it worse. ( I should know, I do this ALL THE TIME <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />).

I read about a technique in "Not Just Friends" that you might try. The fishbowl technique. Write all of your questions on pieces of paper and then put them in a fishbowl. He can pick which question(s) or topic(s) he wants to answer. You can do one a day or pick a day and do three for the week or something. The advantage here is that it encourages openness, but it is limited in scope. I bet your WH is worried that if he opens up a little, the conversation could go anywhere and he can't handle it all at once. Keep it focused.

If he lived here in CA then I'd come and teach him how to give at least a half-decent massage. I do some seminars periodically for couples teaching neck/shoulder and foot massage - basically teaching them how to touch each other more than anything else. At least you found a therapist <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Edited for clarification

Last edited by down but trying; 04/20/05 02:40 PM.
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Hi again,
I'm sorry this is turning into my thread too!!
Is Not Just Friends the Shirley Glass book? I've heard her name so many times and I'm too upset to so a search for it right now.
My WH is acting childish. He has an anger problem and I've always in my mind, related to this part of him like a two year old having a temper tantrum. If I don't handle it that way it gets ugly.
Thank you again for your support.

I am so happy for you and your FWW that you are in recovery. I check for your threads often - even though I don't post to every one I want you to know that I keep up daily.

My WH gets so mad that I spend time here and I try to do alot of my "reading" between calls at work and then my "posting" once I'm at home, after WH has gone to bed.

I'm really glad that you come back here and send encouragement our way, to those of us who haven't quite made it into recovery yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It means a lot.


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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Yup, Shirley Glass. It's a good book, and might give you some insight into his mind as well.

My W throwd her terrible two tantrums too. I have to treat her like a child sometimes too. Ironically, she used that on me not too long ago when I was having a little fit. She just stood there patiently and didn't rise to the bait and it was only a short time until my anger diffused. It worked. Don't get baited in - Be the grownup.

Quote
I'm really glad that you come back here and send encouragement our way, to those of us who haven't quite made it into recovery yet. It means a lot.


Glad you appreciate it, but it's not like we're in Shangri-La yet. Talk about a lot of old patterns and habits to break! But at least the emphasis is on marriage building and not marriage salvage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure WH gets mad for the same reasons my FWW got mad. Every little thing that you do to take care of yourself or talk about the R comes across to them as an accusation or attack. In mental health counselling they call it filtering - meaning that everything goes through a negative filter that warps things based on their perspective. It is a reminder to them about how they screwed up. He doesn't sound like he's ready to face that yet.

Take some deep breaths. Angry frustration won't get you to where you want to be.


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