I once heard a very wise man tell how we "create God in our own image". We quote bible verses to support our image that we have created.

I feel mocked almost every time I get into a religious discussion with you - this time implying that I worship the words of Covey as "my bible". Stop it. It's unseemly for a professed Christian to mock believers or unbelievers.

I believe in a line of authority. The writings of Paul clearly state that there is a correct doctrine and then there is a doctrine of man. That revelation comes through one of three ways - "the still small voice", directly through the Word, and from a leader with direct line of authority over that person.

In other words, FGG studies the word through participation in church services and personal study, through discussions with his pastor, and through what God speaks to his own heart. NOWHERE does it say that Forever Hers has a direct line of authority to speak for God to FGG's issues. You have continually glossed over FGG's careful and prayerful steps, and that he has already witnessed to his wife very specifically that God doesn't give her license to do what she's doing and that's been very eloquently stated even before a judge, and affirmed by his pastor.

I have been abused by someone using The God of Her Own Image to tell me and my husband what we should do. I recognize religious abuse very quickly. Your repeated and continual chastisement causes me to wince because of the inappropriateness of it - you don't know FGG - none of us do, and to attempt to speak for God puts YOU between FGG and God. Do you think you are more powerful than God to speak to FGG about what he should do?

I was told by a very wise Christian minister to get out of God's way. He reminded me of the guards who carried the Ark of the Covenant before the battles in the times of King David - when the oxen stumbled and it appeared that the ark was going to topple - the one who reached out to steady the ark was struck dead in his tracks. God revealed that He is able to do His own work.

So I very carefully remind you of this fact and ask you to rethink your posture in light of God's ability to act for Himself in FGG's situation.

KaylaAndy,

Thank you.

Kayla - I can't help it if you feel like anything I said was "mocking you." It wasn't intended that way, but then one could just as easily say the same thing for several of the things that you said to me. I didn't take it as "mocking." I took it as an opposing OPINION. As I try to do when posting, I try to differentiate between what is MY opinion and what the Scripture clearly states. That you choose to believe differently is not much different than the reason why there are so many different "denominations."

I happen to agree with some of your statement, "That revelation comes through one of three ways - "the still small voice", directly through the Word, and from a leader with direct line of authority over that person," though I only agree with the first two "ways."

I disagree with your statement that "That revelation comes from a leader with direct line of authority over that person." This would be analagous to the Roman Catholic Church position, especially vis-a-vie the Pope. Decidely unScriptural, but it IS the RCC tradition, along with other traditions that I feel are in violation of direct Scriptural teaching. But that's another topic entirely and not something we need to go into at this time.

A person's "position" above, beside, or below you in some church heirarchy has NO bearing on his abililty or qualification as a source of "revelation." This is NOT something that is granted by God unless God chooses an individual for a specific purpose, such as a prophet to proclaim what the Lord wants the people to know. But the Scripture is quite clear that God gave us such prophets in the "Old Testament" days, the disciples (like John) during the inspiration of the New Testament, and today he does not do so because today we have Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

A "mature" Christian, walking closely with God, can be helpful in teaching and understanding the Scripture, but it is the SCRIPTURE itself that is "suitable for all instruction and training in righteousness," etc.

Kayla, you seem to be "mad" at me because I "dare" to take the position that FGG is rushing to divorce. I can't say it strongly enough....FGG has the RIGHT to divorce by the clear statement of Jesus Christ whereby "marital unfaithfulness" (adultery) is the ONLY grounds by which a Christian couple can be divorced without the faithful spouse being guilty of commiting adultery themselves if they should later marry someone else.

That "right" has never been the issue. The issue has been all along that FGG claims to be a Christian, as does his wife. Therefore, they SHOULD be obedient to God's commands. With respect to divorce, it is something that God "hates" and should be a "last resort" after doing everything in one's power to rescue their sinning spouse from sin. The reason is simple, "missions" begin at home. The husband is responsible for, and charged by God, to make sure that there is love in the home and that he is the spiritual leader in the household. God commands husbands to love their wives, but God does not command wives to love their husbands.

Though I don't know the details or the circumstances, I understand that you feel, or it actually happened as you describe, that someone (or several people) tried to use "religion" to control you in some manner that would not be consistent with simple humble obedience to God's Word. In many "cults" that is the norm, but you'll find that they are in opposition to the clear Scripture. I don't know if the person(s) you refer to as meddling in your marriage was in a "cult" or not, but I use that as an example of my understanding of what "control through religion" might have been that you were referring to.

Kayla, if you go back and read the postings from October forward, when FGG began this posting marathon, he has "dabbled" at Christian intervention, but has never really gone to Christian intervention. At various times he has said that some friend named "J" would intervene, that the "Pastor" might intervene, but nowhere is there an update of any Christian intervention.

As tragic as an affair is, and as hard as it is on the BS, the "marriage" is NOT the most important thing to consider here. The "most important" thing is his wife's adultery. The Scripture is quite clear, it is NOT my opinion. Unrepentant adulterers are grouped with several other "categories" of "sinners" who WILL NOT be in heaven. What is "at stake" is far more important than just the marriage, as important and special as a marriage is.

FGG cannot "escape" his God-given role as husband and spiritual head of the household. He has raised up some wonderful God-fearing sons from everything I have read. But I can tell you from personal experience that no matter how "strong a Christian" an individual may be, when they become the Betrayed Spouse in an adultery scenario, it is VERY hard to keep the emotions in check and "submit" to God. Our "fallen flesh" fights us every step of the way.

Kayla, whether you believe it or not, I UNDERSTAND the emotions that are driving FGG. I have felt them and still fight them. I am three years into recovery and not "recovered" yet. I still fight the urge to "end the fight and just throw in the towel," especially when things like "contact" happen. But....God does not ask us to just do the "easy things." No, God tells us to obey Him and to humbly submit to His will, especially when we can't see any hope or progress from our perspective. God says to Trust Him.

If you want to chastise me for saying something that is opposed to the Word of God, please do so. That is something that I would want to know. But if what I say is based on Scripure and is what God is saying in Scripture, then the issue is really with God, not with me, or any "wise man."

Let me quote a little for you of what I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to say to FGG.









(The above quotations are from What Do You Do When Your Marriage Turns Sour? by Jay E. Adams)

Kayla, FGG is a smart, intelligent, Christian brother. I have NO desire to add to his problems. I would like nothing more than to be able to sit down with his wife and talk to her in an effort to reach her with Scripture, to let God Himself talk to her from the pages of His Word.

But that's not likely to happen, so I am left with appealing to my brother in Christ to not "rush" headlong into divorce. To appeal to him to seek, if he can't do it himself, other trusted Christians who can lovingly confront his wife. Her SOUL, as well as her marriage, are "on the line." In much the same way that we often read here on MB that someone "wishes" that someone had told them and warned them "earlier on" about their spouse's affair, so it is with a Christian who has fallen into the temptations of sin.

It is NOT easy. It is, in fact, one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. It is emotionally and spiritually crippling to be the "victim" of adultery. But God KNOWS that. He has been that "victim" many times over. Through Jesus Christ, who was "fully man," God does not just "know" the pain in the "abstract." God knows the pain personally, fully, to a greater anguish and extent than we ever will because he bore the entire sin of everyone. He sweat as if if it were drops of blood. He pleaded 3 times to NOT have to undergo the events of the crucifixion, yet he always submitted his HUMAN will to the Father's will, trusting in God and not in his feelings.

I hear the anger and the past anguish in YOUR posting. I hear it in others. I have the same feelings. We are all, like it or not, part of the same "infidelity party." Most of us did not ask to "get invited," but we are all having to deal with the reality of it and to find a way to "restore that which was lost" and to grow it into a "new creation" that leaves the ugly past behind. On our own, it's not likely. With God, all things are possible and nothing is impossible. So we keep our focus on the eternal future and trust in God for the present time here on earth.

One closing thought; if there are specific parts of Scripture that you think I am taking a position in opposition to God, PLEASE let me know. It may be fact, or it may be misunderstanding, or it may be something that is not "crystal clear" in Scripture, (like just what "one flesh" is as the Scripture clearly calls it a 'mystery') that we could discuss further.

Lastly, it is possible that FGG's marriage will end in a divorce. If, after a Matthew 18:15-20 sort of intervention, his wife remained unrepentant, there would be little left to do but to separate from someone who "claims" to be a Christian but who will not obey God and willfully continues to sin against God. I, for one, would question whether such a person was ever truly saved, because I believe it's impossible for a true Christian to continue to refuse to repent of revealed sin. The Holy Spirit that indwells all true Christians WILL convict such a person of sin in their life. It's NOT that Christians can't sin, it's that they can't continue sinning when their sin is clearly revealed as a sin against a Holy God who died for them.

God bless.

I don't have much time to address the full length of your response; however, I call into question that FGG has NOT done what you have directed. He just won't do it repeatedly, every time you instruct him to, because you lack the authority, and you lack the right to inspiration regarding him.

I direct you to a study of Ephesians, which may help you understand that there is authority and instruction given by the Holy Ghost to direct the paths of those for which ministers are responsible.

Without someone in authority having the right to revelation regarding the needs of the people, we truly are tossed to and fro on the winds of doctrine, upon different translations and interpretations of biblical script...

Again, I repeat - I caution you in your zeal to direct FGG's intervention toward his wife. Do not insert yourself between God and FGG. You do not belong there. You have been asked directly by FGG to remove yourself from that place. Neither you, nor I are entitled to spiritually direct him.

I'll respond on the remainder of your response later. But let this suffice for now.

P.S. Anything referring to the words of men being "biblical" to me reeks of disrespect. I ask you again to take a look at the mocking tone of your post regarding Covey. I highly respect him; I believe that much of his writing is inspired. However, I will not take lightly the "opinion" of one claiming to know my perceptions and modes of worship.

You, as a Christian, speaking to another believer, should have more care, and much more respect toward your fellow-followers.

Got another minute while the dryer finishes running...

FH - I am not calling into question your motives or your heart.

I have watched as my mother comforted believers who have been called to repent, even so much as in the middle of the night by good hearted Christians... people who don't know the full circumstances of the situation, nor the magnitude of the rebellion in their families... or what they have done to intervene... Only the surface stuff that has been shared. And from that, these good Christian people think they know enough to step in where Angels fear to tread and pronounce God's word and prescription for their situation. Do you not see how unbalanced this behavior is? Do you not see it's relevance in this situation with FGG?

Those believers who were rebuked? They moved away rather than face the judgment and condemnation of people who lacked the wisdom of restraint, and the sense of appropriate balance.

I was a child when my best friend moved away with her family. I was a teen when her family moved back to their home; this time as more confident believers - enough to say, "thank you for sharing", and hang up gracefully - but not personalizing the inappropriate instructions coming from well-meaning neighbors.

Later, I came to know someone through my husband who would not much later form an inappropriate attachment to him. When she crossed the line, my husband united under the instruction of our minister, armed with the doctrines of our Church and agreed to no one-on-one contact with this woman; had she desired to retain a friendship with me, all she had to do was accept our protective measure of our marriage. She refused. Instead she used passages from the Bible to enforce that we should be forgiving of her and RECONCILE WITH HER.

Because I respected her knowledge of the doctrine, for a time, I became confused. Did God desire to protect my marriage, or was I to submit to her "authority" that God Himself had directed her to violate that no contact measure? I knew in my heart that God wanted us to take the measures we had; it had been confirmed by three witnesses - the scriptures, the Still Small Voice, and our Minister - the one in authority to give us such guidance.

Until I publically exposed her behavior as that of an emotional affair, she would not give me peace about the issue. Even two years after I thought she had accepted NC, she snuck back into one of my husband's on-line recovery meetings as an alias, and started in again on him with the warped version of the doctrine of reconcilliation. I was prepared to take drastic measures, but I witnessed to her again that she had no authority to act as she believed she had license - and I told her that I was willing to let Our Lord Himself sort that difference out - and until we meet at His feet, and He told me otherwise, I would only accept the instruction of our minister as the truth.

It appears that for now she has relented. But her behavior on-line was as persistent as yours has been with FGG - the only difference being that I don't believe you have an ulterior motive like she did.

I will not begin to add anything new to a theological discussion, my beliefs are so far out of the mainstream, I'm like a bucket on the moon, but what I beleive is important to assert is that FGG has asked more than once that FH refrain from posting on his thread...that FH disagrees and there is nothing FGG can learn from the posts.

Please respect FGGs wish not to post on his thread...start a new thread (like this).

SHMI - Have no fear, I am quite done with FGG's thread and any comments. It is interesting to note, however, how many folks who are not Christians or who are "so far out of the mainstream" have no reservations about giving worldly based advice to Christians and who have no compunctions about about "attacking" or "arguing" against the very simple instruction of Jesus Christ, "if you love me, obey my commands."

I will continue, however, to keep FGG, his situation, and his wife in my prayers for God's help and intervention. Hopefully that will meet with your approval, but if not, know that it based in the desire to see a Christian couple restored to fellowship with God and with each other.

Kayla, I knew that the slings and arrows would likely come out if I said anything to FGG. Only because it seems evident that he is pushing for a divorce, and rather soon it would seem from what he has posted, did I decide to "give it one last try."

It IS his decision, but I would be remiss without attempting one last time to plead for patience on his part to allow God to work on His timetable for reaching Mrs. FGG. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon to support his decision to divorce, and I'd be the last one to tell him "never" to divorce. But it seems he's using the divorce as a "plan B" sort of thing to "get her attention."

There are other ways, and things that have not been tried yet. If they had been tried, I'm quite sure that FGG would have told us since he did "report" the "plans" for some interventions.

However, y'all won't have to worry that I might say anything more. I have been working toward a "retirement date" for the past couple of months and it is rapidly approaching. 3 years on the system is enough. Hopefully over the course of those 3 years I may have "paid the system back" for the help I received early on, at least helped a few a little bit along the way anyway.

So what to say now? I am very familiar with the passage of Ephesians that you quoted. Let's just say that I would hope that a minister of the Gospel would have a greater knowledge of the Scripture and be able to teach from it, but that we are all supposed to "mature" in the faith and get past the "pablum stage." I think the "difference" in where you and I are coming from is in the area of "revelation" and in the area of "authority."

With respect to the woman who intruded upon your marriage in an adulterous manner, let me simply say we probably agree on this point. If not, let me simply state MY position on it. If the person is a Christian and repents, then asks for your forgiveness, the Scripture is clear that you are to forgive them. Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness of the sin, in my opinion.

However, forgiveness is not the same thing as "forgetting" or "reconciling and having a personal relationship" with someone. There ARE consequences for sin and the NO Contact rule applies, in my opinion. I'd have to say that I would be surprised if a Christian who had "gone after" someone else's spouse would attempt to stay in contact and be a constant reminder of the sin, even if it was forgiven. I'd have to "question" someone's profession of belief if they thought it was "okay" to ignore the consequences and the "wishes" of the Betrayed Spouse. That would reek of selfishness and selfish motives to me.

So I will miss some aspects of MB, but I will gain the hours spent reading and posting. Who knows, I may even visit and post from time to time, but if I do it will likely be more like a "drive by post" instead of getting involved in anything lengthy.

I hope that your own recovery continues to proceed well.

God bless.

That's just it. You are seeing your own autobiography - as Covey would say - in FGG's situation.

I don't get that he IS rushing to divorce. I get that this could turn around in a heart beat if his wife would follow the counsel of her husband, the judge, the pastor, her children, the Word of God - and that still small voice she has all but silenced (her guilty, angry, and prideful actions tell me it's still trying to be heard).... They have all testified to her that this is relationship with OM is wrong. She is being willfully disobedient to God.

His wife is not your wife. This isn't her first relationship outside the bounds of marriage.

That's why I'm calling you out - you appear to not be taking FGG at his word - which means you believe you have an inside track on his heart, his intentions, etc. that only FGG, the minister and God Himself have the ability and the right to see.

Please think about that the next time you pray for FGG - I think your prayers can be very effective - not that FGG will do the right thing but that his wife's heart will be softened and awakened to her willful disobedience!

Have a blessed Sabbath.

Kayla

Kayla, it's quite possible that I missed something in the past 6 months of reading and following FGG's postings, so if I did, please feel free to direct me to the specific missed passages.

So, keeping that in mind, I'll comment briefly on what you last posted:



I don't get that he IS rushing to divorce. I get that this could turn around in a heart beat if his wife would follow the counsel of her husband, the judge, the pastor, her children, the Word of God - and that still small voice she has all but silenced (her guilty, angry, and prideful actions tell me it's still trying to be heard).... They have all testified to her that this is relationship with OM is wrong. She is being willfully disobedient to God.

Okay, I will grant you that one person's "rushing" might not be another person's "rushing." So I'll simply ask you a question that has no "definitive" answer either, how long do we "wait on the Lord and His plan and timing" before we take matters into our own hands and do whatever we feel is right?"

I will also grant you that "if she would ONLY listen" to others who have offered their opinions on what she is doing, she might repent and return. However, that is also why we have Matthew 18:1-20 as a model for loving "church discipline." Sin IS often blinding, and clouds our ability to "hear" the truth. Sometimes God has to "increase the volume" of his searching call to a "lost sheep" before it gets "loud enough" that they will hear. Sometimes it requires "treating them as a heathen" to provide a counter to their thought that "everyone will think I am doing good." Sometimes, disfellowshipping from the church is needed to protect the other believers from blatant unrepentant sin or "condoning" sin by allowing it to remain unchallenged. That's also one of the reasons and purposes of Separation in a marriage. Just as the disfellowshipped believer is treated AS IF they were not a believer, so is a marital separation. But just as in the case of the church, the person remains a "believer", albeit along the lines of a "prodigal son." The church, spouse, God, angels, remain ready to welcome the "lost one" back into close fellowship when they "come to their senses."

His wife is not your wife. This isn't her first relationship outside the bounds of marriage.

No kidding? I forgot that. (Yes, that's a bit sarcastic on purpose so I apologize...who is forgetting what or who is making judgments about someone else?...none of us perfect) But bear with me for a moment. I KNOW this is not her first EA. I know the issues of obedience to God have not been dealt with adequately in most marriages (my own and FGG's) as all of us continue to "fight the fight" and deal with temptations and trials. I KNOW that "zeal" for converting someone (a Muslim in this case) has overwhelmed her need to balance obedience to ALL of God's commands, not take one command as an "excuse" to sin against God by ignoring other commands.

But I will tell you this, Kayla, on the "scale" of "adultery choices" to deal with(NONE of which are "good"), I would much prefer to have FGG's to deal with than my wife's entangled, deep, physical and emotional affair of 6 years. Misguided "missionary" type affairs sound much more like a problem with understanding God's commands and are more "reachable" by gentle teaching. The exception would be if FGG's wife is NOT a Christian and is only "saying she is" because she sees that as an "easier way to go" in her circle of friends and family.

So believe me when I tell you that I do NOT think of FGG's wife as my wife or that their situations are in any way similar other than they were/are BOTH disobedient to God and put their own "wants and desires" ahead of simple submission to God. Also, neither FGG nor myself are "free" from the guilt of "disobedience" either. God has COMMANDED the husband to be the spiritual leader in the home, to LOVE his wife "as Christ has loved his bride." The issue will remain for both FGG and myself, will we continue to be disobedient to God in our own lives, or will we "surrender" and try our best to follow ALL of God's commands in humble surrender and obedience?

That's why I'm calling you out - you appear to not be taking FGG at his word - which means you believe you have an inside track on his heart, his intentions, etc. that only FGG, the minister and God Himself have the ability and the right to see.

Kayla, "call me out" whenever you feel the need. I suppose it's not okay for me to "call someone out" in the same manner, but for the sake of discussion let's talk a minute about your "presumption."

I have no "inside track" on FGG or his intentions. I read what is posted...period. I attempt to compare what is posted with Scripture, and no one else, with respect to what ANY Christian should do as a response to what God has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ. It is the Scripture that I hold as "authoriative," not myself, not FGG, not a minister. It IS God who is "authoritative." Nowhere have I read, or can recollect, where FGG has posted a direct revelation from God to him pertaining to his wife's situation. God HAS revealed His will in the Scripture, and any advice must be consistent with Scripture because God's "counsel" will not conflict with Scripture.

Kayla, my sole point, from my first conversations with FGG to this latest and last attempt has been focused on Scripture, not the "opinions" of others, well-meaning or otherwise. We are talking about 2 Christians. The FIRST rule for all Christians is to surrender their lives, totally, to God through humble obedience to God's clearly revealed commands in Scripture. If you disagree with this, then fine, say so, and I'll have a better understanding of what you think. But if you agree with this, then tell me, WHERE has ANYONE, in any of FGG's posts, pulled out the Bible, sat down with his wife, and walked through what GOD has to say? Even Jesus goes directly to the "lost sheep" and then "leads" them back. That journey is NOT instantaneous, but is lead by Jesus until they are "restored."

What I hear from FGG and supporters (and yes I support him emotionally too, I commiserate with him too, I understand the pain, anguish, confusion, false sense of 'peace' from not having to confront sin, etc.) is that since Jesus said that divorce is "okay" in the matter of marital unfaithfulness, that all the other admonitions and commands can be put aside in favor of exercising the "divorce option" and not having to face the pain of "standing for the Lord as spiritual head of the household" even if it HURTS. In short, "FGG has done enough, God has not responded in the timing that FGG wanted, therefore FGG should go ahead and divorce right away. Separation can "best" be accomplished by divorce in FGG's case."

Kayla, do you honestly think that I don't feel? That I don't want to "run" as fast and as far as I can sometimes? That I think of myself as "perfect?" No, Kayla, I feel in some smaller way the way that Jesus felt...he wanted to run, he wanted some other way to complete our salvation, he was crushed under the weight of all of our sins that he was having to bear....yet his response was, "nevertheless, not my will, but thy will be done." If EVER there was a man who had reason and justification to divorce his wife and NOT endure the pain for her salvation, it was Jesus Christ. HE is my model. He is what I try to emulate. He is the ONE thin thread of lifeline that I "hold fast to" when I am "ready to throw in towel because I can't take it anymore."

Kayla, for a few weeks now I have been assailed daily by thoughts of "throwing in the towel." "After all, Jesus said you (FH) could have divorce and NOT sin." (keep in mind that Satan is stating TRUTH, but leaving out other truth. ALL actions have consequences. There is no "get out of jail free card" other than the one Jesus gives to us with NO strings attached through accepting Him as our Lord and Savior. What ARE some of the consequences of divorcing? Remember, divorce IS the "best answer" sometimes, but not most of the time, and our "best witness" is the life we lead and the choices we make reflected against God's "perfect will."

Kayla, I can no more "control" what FGG chooses than I can control what his wife chooses, or what anyone else chooses. If I am in error in something that I take as stated in Scripture, I freely admit to NOT knowing everything, and stand ready to be corrected by Scripture.

If I offend, I apologize. Yet at the same time, I am compelled to stand for what seems to be clearly revealed in Scripture and not shirk or shrink from "standing for the Lord" even if it "costs me." All I ask from God in this area is to keep me from arrogance and self-importance. It is Christ, and Christ crucified, that should be the focus in all things. It is my desire to one day hear from my Lord, "well done, my good and faithful servant."

God bless.

I never said I wasn't a christian.

I am a christian. I just don't like some of Christ's followers...when they begin to think they are better than everyone else...

As an afterthought...it bothers me that you think only christians should counsel christians...and what TYPE of christian? Catholics should only counsel catholics...lutherans should only counsel lutherans? What about messianic jews? What place? Who among us has the right to question someone else's worth...someone else's faith? That's what drove me away from church the first time...when I was told I wasn't a christian because I didn't believe A., B., and C. The judgementalness of some christians keeps me from embracing a church fully and discussing my faith journey...some folks feel it is their god-given right to tell others their failings...

Practice Christ's humbleness and offer YOUR opinion and advice when asked...but don't shove it down hurting people's throats like some french goose...

You spend so much time on your responses, and so many words, but they end up being like a legal treatise, a logical point...explaining and building up your point.

Sometimes people are not ready to hear something...and the hammering voice is going to have the opposite effect you want it to. You can say something once...your words are archived here for many folks to read for years to come...no need to reassert yourself.

Forgive me while I struggle here with my own tendency to impose my autobiography on you - because I have known others "compelled" to impose their interpretation of the word on me before - see previous shares.

Do you believe God to be the creator of all things and all people? Do you believe that God is a being who knows every thought and every aspect of our existence? Do you believe that God wants and has a personal stake in our free will being protected, more than any other aspect of our "test" here on earth?

If you believe this, then you must already know in your heart you have earned the reward of "well done, thou good and faithful servant."

I encourage you to respect and trust God's power to influence FGG through means that FGG can hear and respect.

I lack the time or desire to go back and bring forward the specific instances in FGG's lengthy threads where he tells of his efforts to call his wife to repentance. But if you have an open heart and an open mind, I encourage you to set aside your currently held judgments, re-read both lengthy threads, and let The Spirit put you at peace that FGG is well within God's hands.

Personally, I think your primary argument stems from your difference of opinion with Steve Harley's counsel and the fact that FGG was following that counsel instead of your interpretation of scripture.

I believe that this, more than anything else speaks to the need for divinely called authority - to unify believers on the doctrine. Because your interpretation of scripture is different than FGGs, mine, and many others - and my interpretation is also different than FGGs, etc.

The minister who performed the marriage of Kayla and Kasey almost 21 years ago, gave us some wise counsel. It is why I rarely share what is going on in my marriage on this board. (I learned the hard way 5 years ago when an intruder inserted her interpretation of God's word into my marriage.) His counsel was that we were to keep our marital situation sacred from public scrutiny. That if we were having difficulty, to seek the counsel of Heavenly Father through prayer and temple worship, scripture, our minister, and a professional therapist, but not even our parents should be included in that intimate circle of influence. There were many scriptures that he used to teach us this principle - verses that are sacred to me.

I read here to help me gain a greater understanding of fundamental relationship and recovery principles. I share, based on that grounding. But to impose that I know better than someone else what God guides them to do, is to deny my faith that God is a personal God, and capable of doing His own work.

SHMI - Let me first say that if you thought I was "accusing" you of not being a Christian, please accept my apology. I don't know you, nor have I had conversations with you, to have formed any opinion one way or the other. I take it on "face value" when someone states that they are a Christian that they have, in fact, had a point in their lives where they were convicted of their sinful state and humbly confessed their sins and asked Jesus Christ to come into their life as their personal Lord and Savior.

At the same time, I also adhere to the Biblical directive that "by their fruit ye shall know them." While ONLY God truly knows the heart and whether or not someone is saved, and while only God has the right to make that determination, God has given us the things to look for that SHOULD be a natural outcome of being a "new creation" in Christ. To paraphrase the way James puts it, "someone can claim to be a Christian all day long, but I will show you my faith by what I do." The "fruits of the Spirit" are stated in the Scripture. We cannot "know" for certain the heart of any man, as the Apostles most likely had NO idea that Judas Iscariot was NOT saved. Judas "appeared" on the outside to be "one of them," but Jesus knew differently. So there ARE limits to what we can know for certain, but we are also told that a "true conversion" will change us, even if not "immediately" into a more "Christ-like" walk.



Okaaaaayyy....I agree with the humbleness, even though I know that it's something that I, and most of us, struggle with all our lives because we are still in a "fallen body."

If I have a "weakeness" that I am aware of and fight against all the time, it is this area of presenting the "message" in meekness and humbleness. Sort of the idea of "attracting more people with honey than with vinegar." I know this shortcoming of mine and it is one of the reasons why I tend to write more to "flesh out" a statement, position, or opinion.

But you are NOT really counseling a Christian to remain silent UNLESS directly asked a question, are you? Remain silent if someone is headed into sin, or is following a sinful path? Don't say anything to anyone unless specifically asked? Missionaries, Evangelists, etc. should keep their mouths shut at all times? Don't tell someone that someone is sinning against them if they are being lied to by someone?

I don't really think that's what you are saying, so are you "reserving" your admonition for silence exclusively for me or for anyone having the "temerity" to say something like, "you might want to see what Scripture has to say about your chosen course of action or your choices to make sure that they ARE consistent with God's will?" "Consider Jesus Christ who did NOT want to endure the Cross on our behalf but who submitted to the "hard task" because it was God the Father's will?" Is that the sort of counsel you object to?


Guilty as charged. It is my nature and training in "debating," if you will. Couple that with my scientific training (I studied in pre-med and graduated with a major in Biology) and you have someone who does try to be careful to support "opinion" with "fact" insofar as it can be done.

If you prefer something other than logic and fact, I can't argue with you. There IS a point at which "faith" goes beyond mere "facts." Just as I cannot show you a vial containing an "ounce of love," Love does exist. And "greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend." IF love, which cannot be measured scientifically or proven logically by mathematical proof, is NOT real and does NOT exist, then Christ's admonition and statement about "greater love" is false.

But if you are arguing for putting "feelings" and "human self-centered opinion" ahead of clearly revealed commands from God, as found in Scripture, then we probably would have an area of disagreement.




Again, I don't disagree with what you are saying. Ask ANY Wayward Spouse who is actively in an affair and I am certain that you will get agreement with your premise that "Sometimes people are not ready to hear something." The same thing holds true for most Betrayed Spouse who are reeling and numb from the shock following "d-day" and are not ready to hear something as "true" as God's command to "forgive as Christ has forgiven you."

We are human and we REACT, we have EMOTIONS. It often takes a lot of effort to submit our will to God's will. It often HURTS! It often seems impossible! It often seems beyond our abilities or our patience or our endurance. That is why Philippians 4:13 is so important to Christians....we DON'T have the resources all on our own finite selves.

As John the Baptist was a "voice crying in the wilderness," so are we often seen as we simply say things like "wait on the Lord; take on a posture of servanthood; trust in the Lord, not in our own strength; etc.". Say something ONCE....and then consign it to the archives. Say nothing more than ONCE, because it's already been said. I don't necessarily disagree with that, since all that needs to be say IS in the Scripture. How often do we study Scripture for ourselves and how often do we "leave it up to someone else to tell us what is IN the Scripture?" It varies from person to person. Ask someone when is the last time (or maybe the first time) that they read the entire Bible from beginning to end? It's all "archived there," waiting for the individual to "look it up" on their own.

Human nature tends to prefer the "Cliff notes" over studying it for ones self. Let someone else "interpret it" instead of taking the time to research it for themself.

So in answer to your questions about who should counsel Christians? Yes, I believe that in matters that pertain to faith, to obedience to God, only committed Christians should "counsel" other Christians. If you want counsel in the are of the Stock Market, get an expert(Christian or otherwise) in the Stock Market. But in the arena of Christian life and living, get counsel from someone committed to the sufficiency of Scripture.

In that vein, I consider "group therapy" such as Marriage Builders and it's forums to be "hazardous" as well as potentially "helpful." All sorts of advice will fly around, but for Christians, we must (or should) weigh all advice against Scripture to discern if it is in agreement with, or in opposition to, God's clearly revealed will.

If it is not enough for a Christian to submit and simply "obey God," what other counsel would you put at the top of your "counseling list?"

It will not be the first time, nor the last time, that "obey God" has come into conflict with "obey man."

Kayla, I agree with you about reading here and gaining a greater understanding.

This is where I think you are misunderstanding me and what I said....

You wrote: "But to impose that I know better than someone else what God guides them to do, is to deny my faith that God is a personal God, and capable of doing His own work."

I DO NOT seek to "impose" anything on FGG or anyone else. FGG "answers to" God, just as we all do. I CARE about him and I care about his wife as fellow human beings and as fellow believers in Christ. I DO NOT have a "crystal ball" and I DO NOT have "word from God" that FGG should not ever divorce his wife.

Believe me on this one thing if you believe me on nothing else....God is QUITE capable of doing whatever He wants regardless of anything I might say or do at any time. God does not "need" me. God may "use" me or anyone else, but my services are NOT "required."

God can even restore FGG's marriage after they are divorced if God so chooses. But God will not force their reconciliation, will not force their marriage, will not force obedience. As in Jonah's case, we CAN run. But whereever we run to, God will be there. God will wait for their choice to be obedient, to submit their will to His will, just as God waits on all of us.

My point is simply a question to FGG that ONLY FGG can answer....does he believe that he has done all that is possible to reach his wife and to preserve their covenant marriage? HE is the betrayed, faithful spouse. HE chooses the timeframe. HE can get mad at me or anyone else for asking him to "wait."

The question about waiting that I asked FGG is not much different than other questions about waiting on the Lord. Why does the Lord tarry in returning? When do we stop praying for someone to receive Christ? How long is "long enough" to search for a lost sheep? Why didn't Christ "divorce us" instead of dying for us?

Kayla, I don't have the answers anymore than you might.




Kayla, far be it from me to presume upon God. Yes, I am saved for eternity. That is not the same thing that I was referring to in that reference to the Parable of the Talents. I would have thought you would know that.

The thought, applied well or not so well, is as follows:

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves received from God." (2 Cor 1:3-4 NIV)

But enough. I will do as SHMI requested and henceforth remain silent unless specifically addressed.

God bless.

FOREVER:

Go ahead and admit it. You can not remain silent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

IMHO, you should go ahead and say whatever you want to say. You have a right to your opinion.

Warrior Georgia can take care of himself and will respond to you if and when he wishes to respond.