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It has been one month since D-day #2. I am not in plan A or plan B at the moment. I am so frustrated with him right now I don't know what to do. I don't want to be mean and start LB'ing. He's not doing ANYTHING. I wrote this letter and want to give it to him, as I've already tried talking to him and I'm getting nowhere. Here is the letter - comments please - thanks!!

[color:"red"]
I have been waiting for you to initiate a conversation with me about our marriage. You kept saying that you had certain things you had to do first, such as get a job, etc.

I did accuse you a couple weeks ago of sweeping things under the rug. You said you weren’t. Do you see why it looks that way to me?

It seems as if you are thinking things are fine and life goes on. I’m sorry, but I do not see it that way. The last time we “talked,” I was hell bent on divorcing you. That has not changed and we need to discuss this, as it is a very important matter, in my opinion.

I have no idea where we stand or what you are thinking or feeling these days. I have no idea what your plans are for the future – or what your hopes are for that matter.

I want you to pick a time and a date for us to talk. It has been one month since I found out that your affair is still going on. You’ve said nothing and I have asked nothing of you.

It is apparent that you would never mention it again and really would sweep it under the rug. I have a say in this marriage also and it will not continue this way. You will not be allowed to have a wife and a girlfriend. She won I guess.

So, pick that date and time and get back to me please when we can discuss the future for our children’s sake if nothing else.. [color:"red"] [/color]


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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Suzy -

Good letter except for one place: take out the "She won, I guess." It weakens your otherwise very strong and convincing letter.

JMHO

David


Me - 47 EA 6 years ago
M 18 yrs, Divorced
DD10, DS12, DS18
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It's a very nice letter. If your WH is anything like my WH, it'll just go into the septic tank of your relationship.
Don't expect an answer. Don't expect comment. Sorry. I'd love to be surprised that well written prose could turn the waywards mind.


Grapes are versatile. Grapes can be sour, sweet, sublime as wine and fabulous even when old and dried out.

Me: BS
XCH: Clueless
2-DS: Bigger than me
1-DD: Now also bigger than me!

5/6: Personally served CH with divorce papers
6/6: CH F? wants to time to see if M can be saved
7/6: FCH reenters our lives to work on marriage but secretly signs papers to start divorce...what's that about?
Mediation set for November
Final dissolution in January 2007.
2008 and beyond: Life goes on...
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Suzy - it's a fine letter, but I'll bet you won't get the slightest response to it. He'll ignore that the same way he's ignoring everything else and you'll go crazy waiting for him to respond.

A couple of questions:
1) Why not just say to him, "I need to talk to you about what is going on in this marriage. This is very important to me. I cannot live in limbo. I will be waiting (on the back porch, in the living room, wherever) at 7:30 tonight (or whenever.) I hope you will meet me there. If you do not, it will hurt me greatly and only tell me that you are not serious about helping me to heal or helping to heal our marriage."

2) What do you plan to do if/when he ignores your letter or ignores your invitation to discuss your marriage? As long as he believes he can just ignore you and you'll back down, that's exactly what he will do. It's worked just fine for him so far. Why should he change anything?
Mulan

(edited for typos)

Last edited by Mulan; 04/19/05 05:43 PM.

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Suzy - I poured my heart out in a series of letters after Dday (Affair was still continuing just like your WH). The words spilled onto the paper and, I believe, if anyone in the whole world had read my letters, they would have been deeply moved. EXCEPT my WH. By that stage, I was nothing to him and my words, pleas, tears, despair had so little effect on him it staggers me.

I think your letter is fine but agree about the 'she won' bit. Don't build your hopes up that this could be a turning point. He's either in withdrawal (yuk) or an ongoing A (yuk). Either way he's wallowing in self-pity. Wishing you the best of luck. TT

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David, grapegirl and Mulan,

thanks for your quick replies! I figured since he isn't doing or saying anything right now, maybe a letter might get him to move his butt along. Or say something - ANYTHING!!

Mulan, I have tried to talk to him - several times. He alway had other issues to work on (his drinking problem and getting a job.) His alcohol counselor even told him to put his marriage on the back burner until he was sober for a whole year. (Of course I don't think he mentioned to the alcohol counselor that he was having an affair though.)

I do like the part about ME setting the time and date though for a talk.

If he ignores the letter or the talk - which ever I do - I will be going through with the divorce just like was my plan in the first place. The papers are all filled out already. I've been looking at townhouses.

I had a certain date in my mind of how long I'd do plan A and when that date came is when I had Dday #2. Right after that he said he'd stop seeing her. (Ya, I've heard that before!) And, I believe that like a hole in the head, that's for sure!!

So, if my letter or planned talk goes ignored, I will probably pick another date to set the papers in motion.
I just don't think I want to our could do plan B at this point. It's almost beyond repair and I'm not even sure I want to anymore.

I do know that I will not continue to live like this.
It isn't fair to me or especially the kids.

Thanks again for your feedback on this!


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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thank you tummytuck (I just can't get used to tucktummy!!)

We must have been posting at the same time here!


Quote
By that stage, I was nothing to him and my words, pleas, tears, despair had so little effect on him it staggers me.


Interesting you should say that because I had thought about pouring my heart out but I kind of felt it wouldn't be worth my time. I wrote him a heartfelt letter many years ago in our dating years after we'd broken up. It sat on his dresser for like 6 weeks before he read it.
A few weeks ago though he TOLD me to write stuff down. May have been so he could have time to think up more lies and not be put on the spot though, I don't know.

Sigh.....ARGGHHHH WS WHO WONT TALK!!!!!

Ok, there, now I feel better. thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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I agree with Tanlornpete that that part makes it weak.

I think you might be better off asking a few direct questions that you would like answered. Don't leave it too open ended as it will be overwhelming. Lay out in the letter a few questions so he can be prepared, and then set a time (aka deadline) to talk. You mentioned in my thread that he wanted to write it out - if that gets him communicating and it works for you, let the communication start flowing that way. You can even Instant Message each other across the house if it helps.

It's hard and I know you're frustrated, but make it as easy as possible for him to start talking. If he doesn't step up then, he probably never will. That doesn't mean to avoid the issues though! Give him some bite-size chunks to start with.

Just MHO. Good Luck!

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Tonight I felt myself welling up with anger towards WH and unfortunately I really didn't take any of your wonderful advice

Near bed time I said, "so are we ever going to talk?"
no answer...
still no answer....

I said "hmm, no answer, as usual when you don't know what to say."

He said "I don't know what to tell you Suzy."
I said "well you should have lots to say."
I asked what his plans were tomorrow night and he said softball practice. I said how about Thursday night? He said it seems to be open.
I said, fine when the kids go to bed Thursday night you and I are going to talk. Then I said and if you have nothing to talk about then I guess I have all the answers I will need.
Then I threw in again that he should have plenty to say.

Again no response....it's these kinds of non-conversations that upset me like this!! I feel so unimportant.
I don't think I had any high hopes that we might be [color:"purple"] trying [/color] to work it out, because obviously neither one of is trying at all.
I think I was beginning to accept the way things are heading.
There is still so many unanswered questions. Not about the A, that is old news at this point. I want to know his feelings, his thoughts, what his hopes are. If he feels anything for me at all.
I feel like we are the same way we were pre-A, kind of just co-existing in the same house, ignoring each other. The only difference is that he hasn't flown into too many rages lately. Only a couple and it used to be daily.


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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Quote
Again no response....it's these kinds of non-conversations that upset me like this!! I feel so unimportant.
I don't think I had any high hopes that we might be trying to work it out, because obviously neither one of is trying at all.
I think I was beginning to accept the way things are heading.
There is still so many unanswered questions. Not about the A, that is old news at this point. I want to know his feelings, his thoughts, what his hopes are. If he feels anything for me at all.
I feel like we are the same way we were pre-A, kind of just co-existing in the same house, ignoring each other. The only difference is that he hasn't flown into too many rages lately. Only a couple and it used to be daily.


Why don't you try giving him a letter telling him this? Tell him you feel ignored and need to know what he is feeling. Like I said before, try to start small - maybe even start by asking how he feels about something else entirely to break the ice.

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Down,
I want to thank for all the support you've given me. I appreciate it so much.
Quote
I think you might be better off asking a few direct questions that you would like answered. Don't leave it too open ended as it will be overwhelming. Lay out in the letter a few questions so he can be prepared, and then set a time (aka deadline) to talk. You mentioned in my thread that he wanted to write it out - if that gets him communicating and it works for you, let the communication start flowing that way. You can even Instant Message each other across the house if it helps.


and from your second post:
Quote
Why don't you try giving him a letter telling him this? Tell him you feel ignored and need to know what he is feeling. Like I said before, try to start small - maybe even start by asking how he feels about something else entirely to break the ice.


I think you are right about the letter. It may be my only option left at this point. If not to save the marriage at least to get some things out in the open.
We had been playing that game that I told you about -- BH, stands for Brutally Honest. It was working well for a little while. At least I felt we had some communication.
(It was communication in the form of text messages and email only--no live conversations. Kind of like IM across the house, right? hehe)


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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I'll be following your thread to see what advise you get. My WH is the same...the blank stare and absolutely no comment. Its almost like they think "If I don't say anything its not like I'm lying. If we don't talk about it, its not real."

I think a lot of what I'm looking for is validation, that I am important and that I matter. Its like a punishment when you've done nothing wrong. How do you move on if he won't talk about ANYTHING? Its infuriating and frustrating. I hate being treated as if I don't exist.

So suzy, I feel your frustration. I've tried writing to my WH on different issues. I think he reads the emails but NEVER responds or even acknowledged that he got them. I have a journal full of letters to him. Its next to my bed and I have invited him to read it any time. I started it a year ago. He has never touched it.

Sometimes I think he can't accept his own reality. Or acknowledging the pain he has caused is too overwhelming to bare.... he would have to have a conscience or soul....WH does not but maybe deep inside the alien beast H is buried in there somewhere.

Good Luck and hang in there!

Last edited by confused42; 04/19/05 11:41 PM.

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DS-14 & DD-12
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"I love you but not IN love with you" speech 6/3/04
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***My WH is the same...the blank stare and absolutely no comment. Its almost like they think "If I don't say anything its not like I'm lying. If we don't talk about it, its not real."***

You are so right about this. My own WH becomes furiously angry when the truth of what he has done is brought out and laid in front of him. He has even said that it doesn't jive with the image he has of himself. He did extreme damage to his family but does not have the courage to fix it, because that would be admitting that what he did was wrong and he is NOT going to do that. That's why he refuses to apologize beyond "I'm sorry I hurt you" - because if you apologize, that means you did something wrong.

***I think a lot of what I'm looking for is validation, that I am important and that I matter. Its like a punishment when you've done nothing wrong.***

Me too, me too, me too. Everything I ever brought up to him - the lying, the sneaking around, the putting the girls in his car for 2-hour private lunches, the business trips when I did not know they were there, the endless amounts of time he spent with them when he could have been with me -- EVERYTHING is argued down, justified, and ignored. EVERYTHING just plain never happened. It's as though I am just a crazy b*tch who is making all this up to ruin his life.

Validation? There is NONE. I know EXACTLY how you feel.

***I hate being treated as if I don't exist.***

I have said this to him. He says nothing. Or sneers something like, "Oh, you exist. I have to hear about it all the time. That's how I know you exist."

The WS are running the show here, and they know it. They can dig in their heels like mules and sit there in silence forever. That's how they continue to control this entire situation. What can you do? You cannot MAKE someone regret destroying your life. You cannot MAKE them care enough about you to want to fix it.

I have two choices in this matter, according to him, and I'll bet you do too:

1) Stuff all of the pain and humiliation right down my own throat until it shuts me up, and go back to being his loving (part-time) wife who behaves as if nothing ever happened.

2) Leave.

The third choice, the one I kept offering, is utterly ignored:

3) Give me the respect and courtesy of real apologies for things that tore the heart right out of me. Give me the respect and courtesy of treating me like an equal partner to heal this marriage and keep the inequality from ever happening again.

I can spell this out for him, but when I he will just glare at me and repeat that "he doesn't know what to do to fix this."

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Of course he doesn't. Option #3 doesn't exist for him. That would mean taking responsibility for things he freely chose to do, but those things make him look bad. Therefore, apologizing for them is NOT AN OPTION.

Y'all have really touched a nerve here. I know exactly what you are going through. I don't know what to do about it except to NEVER back down and, when I can, go to Plan B and ultimately Plan D. As I have repeatedly told him, I do not know how to make a relationship with someone who could do these things and then take no responsibility for cleaning up the damage that resulted. I truly don't.
Mulan


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Nice to be appreciated! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like he's in withdrawal to me. The withdrawal stage of the M and also possibly in the A. And selfish to the core. You deserve the explanation of his feelings, but getting them will be like pulling teeth. Part of it may actually be because he doesn't know how he feels. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I say this as a guy. You mentioned that he asked you to write things down and had tried communicating via email and so forth. I'm like that too so maybe I can relate. He might be weary of the intense emotional confrontations. The writing becomes more of an intellectual exercise instead of an emotional one. It is why I suggest starting with some bite-size questions that scratch the surface that are intentionally easier for him to answer. He may have completely emotionally shut down. I bet you he's no where near as in touch with his emotions as you are, and I would bet you knew that before all of this happened too!

Of course that is not an excuse for avoiding it. The "head in the sand" approach gets me nowhere, but it's still a hard habit to break. When you do write and put questions to him, don't expect an immediate response, but DO give him a deadline and let him know that you do expect a response. If he doesn't want a divorce, then tell him what the price of admission is - but start small and let things build on each other.

The good news is that things seem so much worse when you are in the middle of them. You made it this far, you can make it a little farther. Don't compromise on what you need to know from him, but don't expect 100% compliance at the flip of a switch. If he's so shut down, it will take a lot of work just to get him to re-engage his emotions, let alone tell them to anyone.

He also might be embarrassed. If you ask him a question, and his answer is so lame it will make him look like an a$$, he'll be reluctant to say anything and will try to avoid answering. It's hard, but to get him to open up like that requires hard work on your part to create a safe space for him to admit that.

If he sees you making improvements on your past mistakes too, he'll be more likely to jump on the wagon. Worked for me with my (self-admittedly proud) FWW.

I can try to give you more insights into the withdrawn male psyche if you like. My FWW still complains about this to no end and I am working on being more engaged. It's one of the mistakes I made that led to her A.

Keep me posted Suzy!

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confused,
are you sure he's read your journal? I was very surprised to find that my WH did read parts of mine and also came here to read my posts. He would put the journal right back the way he found it though.
Of course I think he was only reading to see if I suspected that his A was still going on, not to understand how torn I was feeling. He is exactly like you said, basically if we don't talk about it then the problem no longer exists and can be swept under the rug.

He checks my cell phone quite often too. I am not sure why but again I think it is to see if I've been talking to OW or not. He hates when I talk to her!! I've never met her in person but have spent many hours on the phone with her over the past few months.


BW 42 WH 41 M 14 yrs ds12,dd7 PA ?? mo/yrs. Day 12/6/04, 3/20/05 and 9/2/05 "Fool me once, fool me twice, and he fooled me a third time?" I never really found out for sure...
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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, but I find it really amusing that he spies on you.


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