Well, at long last WW and I have our first joint MC appointment tomorrow. It's with Steve Harley, who we've previously talked to individually (me twice, WW once). WW still hasn't gone NC, but we have been making some progress anyway -- the focus seems to be on our M for the time being, even with the OM in the picture. You can see my thread for details.

Any advice on how to approach tomorrow? I'm actually in a pretty good mood about it, but I don't know if I should be more worried or serious or pensive. Is this normal?

It's a huge day -- as it could be the beginning of the beginning or the beginning of the end.

Any advice from the experts here? Any pitfalls that I should avoid? Or should I just "go with what feels right?"

Squiggle

THANK GOD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You can just sit back and let Steve run the show. You are in most capable hands.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm with Mel.

I would only add that you should watch your expectations.

As unfair as it is, a fog-bound, fully-entrenched WS is only LOOKING for the most meager of excuses to choose the OP.

If the goal is to save the marriage, approach this meeting with an attitude of "what can I get out of this to make Squiggle a better man." Any fishing, prodding, poking, or suggesting will just feed HER fire and you want that to die a natural death.

So just worry about YOU and YOUR contribution.

At the very least, it will confuse the heck out of her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NCWalker

Squiggle:

Heed the suggestion of NCwalker and strongly Temper any and ALL "expectations".

Don't let any unreasonable Expectations...set YOU up for a nasty and powerful Letdown.
(As in: this was your last/best hope....OR "if MC can't help us, NOTHING can").

As your wife is still in contact...she has already proven she will LIE whenever and to whomever she sees the need to.

Don't expect a MC to be any different.

Unfortunately, I'm dead on serious about this.

As an example:
My W lied to our counselor, as well as the psychiatrist and therapist we went to see (when she was in intensive outpatient therapy).

In fact, [get this.....cause this is the one I STILL can't figure out]......she even lied to her own IC (the one I never met and had NOTHING to do with me at all).

I mean here was a person she was supposed to be getting help from & I would NEVER know what was being said........and she STill lied to Her as well.

What's that all about anyway?? [Beats me!]

In any case, point is......don't expect this to work miracles.
If it does........then fantastic.

But MC isn't the cure all that many would lead you to believe.

Pity, there just aren't enough REALLY effective ones out there to go around.

In addition, Even though I'm sure SH is great, the M only gets out of MC what BOTH parties are Putting into it.
Sadly, we can't MAKE anyone do anything.

However, things can still work out in the end....whether MC works or not.
Did for us!

Wishing you only success tomorrow.

Putting yourself under a little pressure? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's great that she's doing it with you. That's dramatically different from where she was. Remember it is a process and certainly not an instantaneous one. Chances are against the kind of paradigm shift in her thinking you are looking for. From what I've read here, MC worked miraculously well for me and my FWW, but it wasn't instant and she was primed for it to be effective.

Heed the advice here... Go to the session with the mindset "how can I improve, and how can I make my 50% contribution to the M better". I went and owned up to my mistakes and she sure pounced on them, but it let her get them off her chest. She seemed to need the validation of my mistakes in front of a third party. It also let her know that the session wasn't all about her mistakes and that she wasn't being ganged up on.

So, what happened?

White smoke?

Waiting anxiously................

Me too...

TM

Okay, we had the appointment today.

Steve spoke with both of us for about 15 minutes, then WW for 20 minutes, then me for 10 minutes, then both of us again for 15 minutes. It seemed to go very well. WW and I both took notes and she was very attentive and interested in what he was saying. She even told him more than once that what he was saying about meeting emotional needs made sense to her. There were no big arguments or big revelations, but I really felt like she was there to learn how to work on the marriage.

We didn't get into many specific issues between us, other than me volunteering the fact that I had been pressuring her too much over the past week to spend time together, talk on the phone too often, etc. I know that is something I need to improve on, particularly given the progress we seem to be making. I get ahead of myself sometimes and try to fix things too fast.

I also recognized that I had neglected many of her needs, and that I was here to learn what her needs are and how to fulfill them. There was no talk in the joint portions about the A or the OM at all. And I think that was a good thing.

He instructed us to meet with each other to share our emotional needs and lovebusters questionnaires over the next couple days. It's our first assignments designed so we can learn about each other and what we need to work on.

I'm still processing the session and so is my wife. We haven't talked about how it went, but my impression right now is "more progress". I must say that so far, Steve has made us both comfortable and his theories seem to make sense out of the chaos that we have been in.

Squiggle

Sounds like you had a great first session. Glad to hear it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Excellent, Squig!!!!

Keep doing what you're doing, only slower.

WAT

Okay, taking a pause tonight to reflect a little.

Phone conversations with WW have been terrific the past couple days -- it's been so upbeat and interesting -- we tell each other about our days, she calls me to tell me when something good (or stressful) happens at work, we tell each other things like "Have a great day at work" -- these may seem simple, but they are things that we haven't done in a long time. Also, things haven't felt so rushed or crisis-like.

There is one thing, though. I won an award for my job that includes a 6-day conference in Barcelona where I will be making a presentation -- I leave on Thursday. When we first found out, my wife and I were so excited about it and we even planned to make it a two-week vacation where we could also go to Paris or Rome (we've never been to Europe, but have always dreamed of going together).

After the A took hold, I've been dreading the trip as it's gotten closer. I didn't even book a plane ticket, as I kept hoping things would turn around for us and that I would eventually need to book TWO plane tickets. But now it's a week away, and the prospect of going without her makes me feel empty and sad. The trip may as well be to Jersey City (no offense to anyone from NJ), as that's about how attractive it seems to me right now.

In a moment of sadness yesterday, I left her a message that I had to "ask her something." Right after I left it, I got so afraid that she would laugh at me or worse, that she would get mad at me for pressuring her (if she felt pressure going to the movies, imagine Europe). Well, she called me back, and I told her I hadn't booked my ticket for the trip yet. She asked why not and I told her the truth. She wanted to know what I was going to ask her and I just said it -- I told her I knew it was going to sound crazy, but I wanted to know if she would go with me.

To my surprise, she didn't dismiss it. She is actually considering going, and says that she can see that it may be good for us, but that she is also worried it may be bad. I can also see both sides, but of course I'm the optimistic one, so I really DO want her to go with me. It just doesn't seem right going without her. I know I should just go and have fun with or without her, but this has been a dream of ours for a long time, and even in the present situation, I want to share it with her. And I want her to be there when I get my award -- I think she would be proud of me.

I've tried to make it clear to her that I didn't expect her to even consider it, but that I would be very happy if she went. I also said she could get her own hotel room if it would make her more comfortable (she said she wouldn't want a separate room, though).

I've told her calmly that I understand if she doesn't think she should go, and that I won't be angry or upset with her or let it affect our MC. I even told her that I had hoped we could still have a phone MC session during the week if I was there without her. Also, I thanked her for considering the trip and told her it meant a lot to me even that she is thinking about it.

We agreed that I would book my plane ticket (which I did today) independently of her, and if she decides she wants to go, we'll get her one and change mine if we have to.

I really don't think she'll decide to go, but I can't help but to see this as another sign of hope.

So what do you all think? Would it be helpful or hurtful for us to go to Barcelona for a week? While I do want her to go with me, and my biased self thinks it would really be good for us, I don't want to do anything to stop the progress we've been making. Also, I do realize that we've just started MC, so I know it may be risky.

What do you all think? WW tried calling SH to get his opinion, but he hasn't returned her call :-(

Squiggle

Squiggle,

Fits right in with Harley's "Rule of Time."

So to me it would be OK, but only IF....

1) You WATCH your expectations. Go into this with her as a friend sharing a neat experience. Will protect you from being disappointed.

2) The BOTH of you agree to be able to declare a "neutral corner." Logistically, may be tough. Well, maybe not. What I mean is if you need to separate, you must BOTH agree to honor some time alone if needed.

Other than that, go. Bottom line, how bad could it be compared to what you have gone through?

Watch those expectations my friend. Watch 'em.

NCWalker

Any other opinions on the trip?

I'm really feeling stressed today.

WW and I have each been unable to get a hold of SH -- we're both very disappointed he doesn't return our calls. It's a good thing neither of us are suicidal, as he's basically been inaccessable when you don't schedule an appointment two days in advance.

WW and I are meeting at our house after work to do our first assignment -- sharing our EN questionnaires. I'm again left wondering if we should just do the assignment and then go our separate ways, or if we should try to do something else -- watch tv, make dinner, order a pizza? I guess I'll try to feel out the situation and certainly if I bring up something and she says "no", I won't push it.

I did speak to her shortly this AM and we scheduled our next MC appointment for Monday. We shared our disappointment that SH hasn't called us back, but also agreed that we'll try to talk about the trip tonight if we don't get his help.

Squiggle

Squig - I vote you keep open your offer to her to go with you and hope for the best.

Optimism is contagious.

Be optimistic about EVERY challenge you face. Even in defeat, there are lessons to be learned.

Being optimistic includes being realistic. Either she goes or she doesn't, either she enjoys it or she doesn't, either it promotes a recovery or it doesn't.

This is a perfect Plan A opportunity.

WAT
------------------
Provocation is no excuse for derangement.

Squggle -

Because of your limited timetable, I think you should keep the invitation open. I am going on gut feeling here, not experience, though. I would think that creating positive deposits in her bank would be excellent for your M....just be careful to avoid the LB's, especially if she makes contact with the OM while on the trip, and you find out.

Be prepared for the worst....but hope for the best.

TM

I say go too.

Just be careful to minimize R talk or not force it. Really focus on just letting things happen how they will. Be careful if she goes about her expectations too. A little separation from the "real" world might remind the 2 of you why you were drawn together in the first place.

Wish I could go to Barcelona <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, Friday's assignment was rough.

Things were going perfectly before we got out our EN questionnaires. We talked a little about the Barcelona trip. Steve did end up calling me back and said he was going to also try to call my wife, as I told him that she probably had more concerns about the trip than I did. However, my wife said that he never tried to call her, so I'm not sure what happened.

Anyway, she asked me what he told me and I told her that he thought it would be good for us, as long as we discuss our concerns and expectations openly and honestly prior to the trip. Also, he said we should expect it to be somewhat stressful, but that stress would be normal and necessary in our situation. So she still didn't give me an answer, but went on thinking about it.

Then, my wife brought our clothes to the drycleaners for us, we ordered a pizza and ate together on the couch, did a lot of smiling and joking, and finally, we settled in for the EN assignment.

The first couple EN's went well -- we took notes and seemed to agree on what we wanted. We also did well in following Steve's instructions not to debate or get defensive. But somehow, we stopped following instructions about halfway through, and we turned defensive and upset. It was both of our faults, as neither one of us stopped it. The main issue wass that we started talking about things I had done wrong in our M. I told her that I accept full responsibility for them and told her how sorry I was and that I am committed to doing whatever it takes to make things right -- but the more we talked about it, the more it seemed to simply open up her wounds. And it ended up with my wife stopping the assignment (saying she "couldn't handle any more") and calling it a night. Even though I wanted to keep going, I did my best not to fight it and let her leave.

I am worried, b/c my wife was extremely upset. I could see that her hurt and pain were real, so I do not discount it or call it "fog talk." I tried to get her to agree to a time when we could finish our assignment, but she said she didn't know if she could finish it.

Now, I'm worried that she is already thinking of giving up. It's awful to feel like any misstep in our MC and interactions together could destroy the progress we seemed to be making.

Squiggle

Talked to WW today -- I invited her to come with me to take our puppy to the park and take pictures of him, but she said she's not up to it.

I also asked her if we could finish sharing our EN questionnaires later tonight, and she says she doesn't think she wants to, because "we already did enough of it." I told her that I thought it would be good for us, and she at least said she'd rather talk about it later today.

I got the impression that she was with the OM, so I didn't push talking any further.

Also, I didn't even ask her if she's still okay with our MC appointment tomorrow AM -- I was really trying to be strong and happy on the phone, but I was afraid of getting upset if she told me she didn't want to do it.

What am I supposed to say if she wants to stop MC already? We've only had ONE appointment. And we were making progress. Just because some hurtful issues came up -- issues which have to be dealt with to heal our M -- doesn't mean we should see that as a reason to give up. I told her I thought it was a good thing that we talk about difficult issues, as we always avoided doing it in the past.

Man, another stressful weekend.

Squiggle