Hi,
I posted to you last night and I have a few questions if you don't mind.



I have long suspected it was more than an EN problem as I did plan A (before I knew what plan A was) and still the behavior is the same from him.

I have read on here that MB is not effective if one is still addicted...and I guess I have to wonder about that one too. See, my H is 16 yrs. sober, but I believe he has picked up another addiction....stock trading (which I liken to gambling).

Does his sponsor know? No. I didn't even remember who his sponsor was until I asked him this morning. I know he hasn't told his sponsor about the A or the stock trading. Another in the group actually thinks H is a genius when it comes to stocks...

I looked in the big book this morning to find out about amends...didn't really find specifics or even a real good outline and definition of the steps.

I asked H what a character defect is...how do you define it. He really couldn't answer..so probably doesn't know if he has one. I tend to think there is a flaw in ones character if they keep doing the same things over and over...while claiming to be "not like that".

I think I am finally understanding that this is more than an EN problem...it is the result of another addiction (and they say this is highly possible with recovering alcoholic), hence the continued behavior. I feel the same helplessness I did back when he drank. There is absolutely nothing I can do to make him realize what he is doing...and how it is affecting me. He thinks I should just accept it. I can't.

Thanks!

M&L, the difference is that many of the WS' we see here cheat as an aberration of character; with most serial cheaters it is not an aberration, but a way of life. MB can address an aberration as it is often [not always] rooted in marital problems and perhaps unmet needs. The other side of the coin are those who cheat simply because of a character defect. It is a way of life for them and they don't feel guilt or remorse about it. Our run of the mill WS around here, does feel great remorse because cheating is out of character for them. MB can help these folks.

If your H is an alcoholic - especially one who does not work the program - he probably feels entitled to cheat since the world revolves around him. He is not cognizant of the wreckage in his path.

Now, I don't think that your H"s gambling addiction stands in the way of gaining relief frm the MB program. I think, rather, that if he is a serial cheater, that this is a way of life for him. But, he is not under the influence of alcohol or drugs, so that I don't see that as the issue.

I have been trying to define "character defect", in order to comprehend if I am dealing with a serial cheater. I know it isn't alcohol or drugs, as it was with A #1 & 2, but why don't you think it could be the gambling addiction? From what I am seeing, it is the same exact behavior as an active drinker...the excuses, rationalization, denial, etc. Only now I don't argue with him and I don't try to convince him or talk to him about it. Just like when he drank, there is nothing I can do to change this. (Although when he was drinking I tried damn hard to stop him because I didn't know any other way).

I am very confused. H says he is sorry and unworthy of forgiveness, but I don't feel like he is fully aware of the damage it has done.

Why do you think that a gambling addiction would not stand in the way of MB? I have read on here a number of times that addictions must be taken care of before MB will work. Wouldn't the same behavior (denial etc) be present in each addiction?

Gambling is not a mind altering drug that prevents one from learning or changing. An active alcoholic or addict is mentally incapable of learning or feeling normal feelings such as emphathy because that part of the brain is anesthetized. Gambling is an addiction, but it is not mind altering. Do you see the difference?

The way you define a serial cheater is by SERIAL BEHAVIOR. If they do it once and stop then they ain't a serial cheater. If they do it over and over again, it is serial behavior. A person would still be defined as serial cheater whether or not they were an active alcoholic, because serial cheating is defined by serial behavior, regardless of whether they are addicts or not.

And yes, there are similarities between gambling addictions and alcohol addiction, but there are also key differences.

I thought I was on to something with the addiction thingy. Maybe not. I am going to go look up gambling addictions online and learn a little about that.

I understand that gambling is not a mind altering addiction, but the stinkin behavior thing! He is not playing in reality when he is doing this, and it affects more that just him. I feel like I am trying to find the big "WHY" when he should be finding it.

It seems if I knew "why", I might be able to better decide what I want to do, what I should do. At least not get strung along by someone that may never be any different. Hmm. I just want a crystal ball.

M&L, does your H still go to AA meetings? How long since his last drink?

How much time does he spend trading stocks? Does he lose money?

M&L, I am completely confused. Why what? Is the issue his affairs or is it his stockbroking? I am confused why you are relating the two because I don't see them as related at all. How do you feel one has to do with the other? And how would finding out WHY [why what?] change anything?

Self punishing addictions(drugs, sex, gambling and yes, even work) ensure that the addict need not move on in life. It also protects the addict from the complete wrath of those that are hurt the worst through their addictions. How can you humanely punish someone that is so obviously intent on their own destruction?

And yes, I totally agree with the prognostic value if the A is an aberration of the WS's normal character. If the WS acts completely different from the person you fell in love with, hang on and pray. You probably will have the chance to save the M if you still desire it.

If you are faced with a WS that lives their life in a self centered code of entitlement, I fear the M recovery rate is( and probably thankfully)very poor.

Counseling in the latter instance is invaluable in permitting the BS to recover from the devastation wrought by this character defect ridden WS. Hopefully a competent counselor can also then make the BS realize that the WS's actions occured regardless of who was married to them.

It just tragically happened to be you.

He just started going again in December after not going for maybe 10 years.



16 years.



Right now and during the winter, usually all day. In spite of his best efforts to only go till 9:00, or this deadline or that, only to just keep on going. Once he starts, he can't seem to stop. And if he gets stopped out, I can see he is not going to be beat and hes got to get back in.



Yes. And it is not about the money so much as the behavior, as stated above. He can't stop once he starts. However, as money gets tighter and tighter, it is starting to matter. He is now trading with the last of his retirement fund. This is not childs play. This is serious. And no one seems to understand this. No one knows how bad this is, just like so many didn't even know he drank until he went away to treatment. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Why don't you take the money away from him?

I will have to get back to this in the morning....
college daughter is on the phone

Thanks for all your time...you too cymanca!

Studies have shown that when people are in the early stages of "infatuation"/romance, neurotransmitters in the brain release a natural chemical similar to an amphetamine...much like the way drugs and alcohol alter brain chemistry. People can get addicted to this high. Also, people can get addicted to the increase in adrenalin caused by "risky" behaviors such as gambling, market trading etc.

Drugs/alcohol can also be used to avoid tbe responsibilities and challenges that are a part of life. All the while self-medicating (with the drugs and alcohol) to avoid the guilt about what one is doing.

ML, Why not take the money away? The same reasons it does no good to dump or hide the alcohol, or try and hide money to prevent someone from buying drugs. It doesn't work. It's an addiction. They're driven. They will find a way to get a fix. You cannot stop their addiction. Only they can do that. Trying to stop them only puts you in the position of assuming some responsibility for their addiction. (the old rescuing and enabling behaviors)

C,
My XWS is a recovering alcoholic/addict. I was with him when he was using and when he got into Recovery. It was so nice to finally be able to trust him...to take him at his word. It was obvious that he was working the 12 steps.

Six years into Recovery, he had an affair with a 21 year old female (he was 47) that he met at AA/NA. It took me a long time to figure out what was going on. I was so used to him telling the truth. I did think he HAD relapsed, though, because during this time all the same addictive behaviors were back. I started questioning my sanity!Actually, I do think that his affair was a kind of relapse. It allowed him to escape responsibilities at home. It doesn't take much to impress a 21 yr old who has very little in life. Also, it impresses your other mid-life friends. (Long story short- she got pregnant. They have a little boy with Down Syndrome. Responsibilities caught up!)

As far as character defects, sometimes they are defined as thoughts and behaviors which no longer, or never did, contribute to one's wellbeing, serenity, sanity etc. I'm sure there are other definitions.

You are facing a very difficult situation. I'm glad you're here for support. Take care.

It very well does work. You don't give money to an alcoholic or a drug addict, you take it away. You make life hard for them. But foremost, she has to protect her own financial interests, which would be my first concern.

I have learned that there is nothing I can do to stop addictive behavior. Long ago I tried to make H stop drinking by withholding money, whining that we didn't have the money, what about us etc. It is just like heartmending says...they will find a way to do what they want. Mine would wait until I fell asleep so he could get the car keys out of my purse and go get beer.

With stock trading he continues to do what I have told him I don't like. He is trading on margin, which is borrowed money. I have said I don't want him to do that on many occasions, yet he thinks he knows better than me and does it anyway. He also says that when everyone is against him, he knows he is on the right track. I don't want to feed that mentality. So the money withers away. I know this is alarming but I will try to explain my reasoning.

I learned the hard way that there is nothing I can do to change my H or what he does. I could not make him stop drinking, I can not make him quit smoking and I can't make him quit trading. I have stated what I don't like and that I will not support a particular action (one time he was hell bent on putting some money with an investment firm that called him on the phone-I told him I did not agree with it and would not support it. He did it anyway.) I decided right then and there that I would change my attitude about this whole thing. I would no longer nag and complain about it but I would tell him my opinion if asked. I would not be negative or make rude comments anymore. (He misrepresents his trading to others). So I have set a few boundaries and decided I will not let it run my life. Do I like it or agree with it (trading)? No. Do I wish he would stop? Yep. Do I think he will? No.

Through the MB plan I have become a much stronger person and today I feel like I am coming up with a plan for the future. I also am concerned about our finances. Very worried. I know if I were to take a chunk of money out of his trading account it would be viewed as a hostile action and would make things very miserable. I am going to bide my time...the money we have is spoken for 10 different ways so I will not hurt us further by taking it. However, I am going to ask that I get paid this summer through our business and will start to put that away. If/when the time comes we have a rental house next door that is currently our office that i can live in while I get a job next winter.

A few other thoughts here....we own a seasonal business so H is home all winter. He is perfectly capable of getting a job so we don't have to live off the summers money but never has since this started. Instead, he has been trying to make a living by trading, using the money we have put away for the winter bills. You may ask why I don't go get a job? I have asked myself too. My kids are getting old enough (one in college, one will graduate HS next month and a HS freshman) to handle it. But, to do so would enable his continued bad choices, in my opinion. I believe it is pride that keeps him from getting a job...it may look like we aren't doing good. He says he doesn't really have time and couldn't make enough to make a difference since our business bills are so huge. But he was in favor of me getting a job when I mentioned it this winter.

I am really starting to absorb the enormity of my situation. And it sucks. But, I also fell like I have learned alot recently. Nikko and other have been helping me on my other thread and this one is really firming up what I have felt in my gut to be the truth.

Today I feel more in control. I will continue with a plan A type approach to the best of my ability. I feel detached from it for the most part. I don't react to it much anymore and I interact with him just enough to keep the peace. I try not to LB.

Heartmending,
Thank you for your response.

This is what I see happening. He likes the buzz.


This is exactly what happened here. I started to trust him, then the old behaviors crept back in (and it is gradual, so one may not notice until it is too late), then the A (while sober, which is even more confusing!) and the consequences will be ????.

Cymanca,

I see this in my H. He obsesses about work too...and then says "I'm doing it for you". He uses that line with the trading too. "I'm just trying to make us some money."
If I say, yes, but it's not working, he looks totally crushed. If I were to say it in anger, he gets angry right back and defends himself and no one understands him.



I do believe this is the case. And his biggest pet peeve is people who have that sense of entitlement, something for nothing. Oh the rants I have heard on this one.



And the counseling I have recieved has helped me a lot, along with this site. It is all gonna pay off one day. That last line, ...it just tragically happened to you....makes me gulp. I didn't want to be it. But I'm realizing I am it. This is a persistent pattern in his family.

Thank you all for your help...keep it coming as I may not see this as clearly as I think I do.

M&L, I am not suggesting that you can stop his addiction, you can't. But what you can do is try and make sure he doesn't trade away your family money. If he is squaundering your retirement or family money, the best thing to do is make it unavailable for him. He shouldn't have any access to it if you can help it. This is pretty standard advice in AA, to do otherwise is funding their addiction at your own expense, and you don't want to do that if you can help it.

I don't really know how to make it unavailable to him without a huge fight. If I were to keep money from him and he knew it, it would be WW3. The money he is using now was from an IRA that was from his job that was rolled over, and when we went to get it out, I found out it was only in his name. It is now in both names. However, he has it in his trading account and it would be noticable if I took any.

I have kind of resigned myself to the fact that we will spend it all (either trading or to pay bills with) and we will start over later. You see, he has insisted that I am the reason he doesn't have anything. That if I would have let him do all the things he wanted to (with the business etc) we would be better off. Again with the trading he has said that if I would just let him do it, it will work. If he listens to anyone else it won't work. So I decided to back off and I will know if it doesn't work, it is not because of me. And he will not be able to point the finger at me anymore. I did not nag him or make him trade/invest my way. And I quit nagging him about the way he is doing it. He is one happy camper right now. He thinks all is well. I ain't nagging. I'm not trying to make him stop. He has the green light. And all the excuses he has used are not panning out. (If I just had a bigger account so I could make some bigger trades, I could make some money. He has a much bigger account and guess what? He still isn't making any money.)

So, I guess I am guilty of funding his addiction at my expense. I don't know what else to do.