Now he's got OW thinking that she's being followed, too. I told him that for his own sake I hope he finds out who is doing it. Unbelievable!

I strongly suggest you sit back and let this thing play out.

Do not interfere with the natural progression - knowing some exposure affect is yet to be felt.

It'll be like watching a slow train wreck.

Paranoia is some of the best poison.

WAT

Thanks, WAT. You know, even with my wildly vivid imagination I could not have come up with anything that would have the effects of all the things they think I'm doing, when I'm not.

The way things are going, I would not be surprised if within a day or two there were bugs in the phones & some form of key loggers on the computers. Doesn't really matter - I've already said and done all I needed to that he would object to.

Also, he seems to have decided that I believe him now, that he wasn't "boinking the 'saur". Last night after he got back & ate supper I gave him a kiss and he said, "You don't want to do that. How do you know I wasn't just out having sex with her?" I kissed him again. "I don't, but I love you even if you were." He began addressing the dog. "It doesn't matter what she thinks, does it, boy? As long as we know...." Oh yes, we do know.

You're doing good.

You have to absolutely keep your nose clean. No messing in their affair - unless more exposure becomes available.

Even NOT using your vivid imagination to cause turmoil, you're gonna be blamed for just about anything that causes problems - or causes them to cause problems. Be ready for these accusations and DO NOT react to them. DO NOT try to defend yourself - you don't need to - other than simply blowing off whatever he blames you for.

A successful way to handle this is recognizing the dark humor. WSs can be VERY funny. I sense you realize this already. Stand back and see the humor rather than trying to make sense out of what they're doing.

WAT

Today has been a little harder than most days recently, don't know just why. He tried to reassure me that OW was not accompanying him on his business trip to SoCal, and since she is scheduled to work while he is gone, I believe him. Of course, then he arranged to take a friend of his who coincidentally lives farther up in the hills right past OW's house. If I were having him followed, WHICH I AM NOT!!!, where would they find his car right now, I wonder?

Boy, I'm cranky. OK, little reminder: contact is expected. Don't take this question the wrong way, since no, I'm not going to do anything impulsive, but at what point would a MB counselor recommend asking a WS to leave the house, continuing Plan A from a distance? We're still quite a ways from that, but I've been wondering, and haven't found the answer yet either here or in the book, which came today - yay!

It's just that he's been staying insistent about trying to get me to believe him that nothing's going on, and when I refuse to comment on his 'innocence' I'm sure the contrast bothers him, since until recently I was expressing trust in him.

WAT, rest assured that even if my words and feelings are antsy, I'm still taking your advice to just sit back and watch. I feel like I should be doing something - stirring something up - all the time. Instead, I will just remember that he delayed leaving, kissing me goodbye 5 or 6 times before he left, and was unusually demonstrative during the day, especially when I was most upset. Some guilt, I'm sure, but hopefully a lot of renewing love as well.

Oh, I sent the EN questionnaire in his overnight bag, along with a nice note. It will be interesting to see what response that brings.

I can't post so depressingly without at least trying to lighten up a little. During our 'family bonding time' when the kids were watching a movie, some hunters were trying to shoot an animal. DS4 muttered, "Toopid yoo-mins!" DD6 informed him, "You're a human, too, you know." His mouth dropped open indignantly. "I not a SHOOTER yoo-min!"

There. That's better.

One other question: I read in Cerri's post on Plan A that the usually recommended time for Plan A was 3 months for women and six months for men. Maybe I'm still just dazed and stupefied, but does that mean use Plan A for only 3 months if the WS is a woman, or does it mean that a BS who is a woman should only wait 3 months before moving to Plan B? Again, I'm not impatient, only trying to clarify this so I understand.

Hope that made sense; if not I can edit it. I'm nodding off big time, so will try & get a good nite's sleep and see all of you terrific people in the morning.

Hey WAT. Now you're on my page. I've got Gimble helping me, and I was pretty sure until yesterday that he had his humor removed surgically!

Now I interfered in my WW and OM rendezvous last weekend by cancelling their first plane ticket. Can't she show some resistance to the affair through "harmless" interference. Like disabling his car by pulling the center coil wire from the distributor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It works, I've used it in my youth.

Meaning, if you are a woman, which you are, you should only do Plan A for about 3 months. After that, us girls tend to get less giving, and more cranky. Apparently men BS can Plan A for up to 6 months effectively.

I think the duration should be measured by each individual. Plan A should be stopped when it is no longer able to be done effectively. Eventually, the Taker comes out, and wants something in return for all the Giving ~ it is human nature. If you get to a point where a good Plan A is no longer possible, or even consistent, and your H is still actively wayward, then it is time for Plan B.

My experience here is that others will begin raising Plan B flags from the tone of your posts, probably before you think it is time for Plan B. Although, you seem unusually pragmatic (yay!), so you might be able to still see everything clearly at that time. Some of us have been known to lose sight of the forest, for the tree that our noses become pressed up against. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are doing fantastic. Continue following WAT's excellent advice ~ he is an expert on the nature of the WS, as your real H is imprisoned somewhere on the Mother Ship.

Spidey

'neak - I personally don't think the timing of Plan A can be so precisely pre-determined, regardless of the gender of the WS. What I have observed is that BSs who finally decide to go to Plan B - myself included - usually regret not doing it sooner.

Here is my Plan B entry criteria I use when recommending Plan B to BSs on this forum:

Enter Plan B IF:

1. All exposure opportunities have been taken, and

2. You've done a good Plan A by really identifying your poor marriage contributions, you've fixed them, and you've demonstrated the fixes to the WS to the extent the WS allows you to. You've also had a sustained period of no LBs or other love busters, and

3. You're physically separated (living apart) AND there are legal instruments in place to prevent the WS from moving back in. This also presumes that all financial and child support/custody arrangements have been made.

Take it for what it's worth.


Sure she can. Better yet, she can show resistance through destructive interference via exposure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My advice to leave things alone was based on her particular circumstances and my internal scale tipping to the side of more harm than good. Things were looking like the self destruct meter was trending higher. I believe if this is the case at any given time in the life cycle of an affair that the BS can cause more harm than good by interupting the natural progression. This is just my cautious opinion. Pulling the center cable may be just what the doctor ordered if things in LaLa Land appear rosy. But ANY interference by the BS carries the risk of discovery by the infidels and the resulting demonizing of the BS - creating a common foe.

JMHO

WAT

Thank you Spidey and WAT. Your comments were very helpful. For me it has already been a bit over three months, but I still have quite a bit left in me. (God has been making steady deposits in my Love Bank. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I have every confidence in my ability to outlast Plan A's usefulness.

As you said before, WAT, much of the affect of exposure is still to be felt. What my gut is telling me from this side of things is that if things settle into a rut post-VP-confrontation it will be time to shake it up by at least asking him to move out. In the last several months he has grown back to being so dependent on me again, emotionally and everything else, that I think that alone would stand a very good chance of success, and the odds I lay on Plan B working are about 99%.

Pete's sake, he couldn't even last the night sleeping in a different room from me! A month ago when he saw my maiden name on a pre-generated form, he freaked out, apparently thinking I was planning to leave him. I feel our prognosis is excellent once he is separated from her, though of course that's true for anybody.

Ugh, I'm starting to ramble, though that's better than last night where I woke up and found out I had been typing completely random words into my post. Fortunately I hadn't sent it yet. . . Anyway, I'll just keep watching to see if this nose dive turns into a crash and burn, or if they somehow turn it around and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

EDITORIAL DISCLAIMER: The thoughts enclosed in the following post are the opinions of the mother, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the daughter.

I have been up for over 24 hrs. on the strength of a 45-min. nap--we nurses do that kind of stupid stuff. I have GOT to sleep at least a couple of hrs. before rousting my sorry tail out of bed to take 'neak and her car to the repair shop. I made the mistake, though, of logging on to this thread on the way to bed, and if I don't say something, I'm afraid my eardrums (now protruding 6 inches out of each side of my head) will explode while I'm asleep. A BAMOAB can only take so much pressure, you know.


However, before I leave the state of Consciousness for a brief foray into the neighboring state of Oblivion, I have to say this: SHE HAS NO POOR MARRIAGE CONTRIBUTIONS! Ahem, let me try that again. shehasnopoormarriagecontributions. For the last 10 years, she has done everything for this man but masticate his food and carry it to him, like a mother pelican, delicately in her craw ...while he, a Jabba-the-Hutt-sized emotionally-needy sponge, soaked it all up and waited for more. If he had had any more of his ENs met before he decided to let his Little Pony wander out of its paddock in search of a new grazing pasture, he would've exploded and obliterated 3/4 of the county. She has done this caretaking and caregiving faithfully and regularly, without complaining--even behind his back, which is more than I can say for myself! She is everything he is not...beautiful (well, she WAS beautiful 4 months ago; now I can palpate bones I haven't even thought of since anatomy and physiology class back in the summer of 1967); college-educated; a skilled public speaker; musically talented--piano, clarinet, tuba, flute, saxophone, voice, plus composition; a homeschool teacher for 2 of her 3 children; a faithful caregiver for her elderly grandfather; a published author (2/05) of a book that looks at the life of Jesus from a very you_neak angle--plus her 2nd book will be published this summer, and the 3rd was due to be started when the little bomb was dropped into Nirvana; office manager for her husband's various business efforts (out of her home). I could go on but I'm making myself tired just typing it.

Too many people, from my point of view, are worried about the alien, how he feels, and why he feels it, etc., etc., etc.! Who cares about HIS ENs, or the rest of his whole diddly-blasted alphabet, for that matter? I am about ready to forget that I am a 57 year-old professional woman, lie down on the floor, and violently drum my heels (on the carpet, of course--I wouldn't actually want to HURT myself!). He had the kind of wife men dream of (I know--more than one has told me so.), and for years he has taken his good fortune too much for granted.

In spite of all this, the replicant and I were really pretty good friends up till all the feces hit the rotating blades, and I was forced to witness (and witness and witness and witness) the pain he was willing to cause my daughter, his innocent spouse, and my young grandchildren, 3 ultra-innocents. My parents were missionaries. I was brought up on the concepts of forgiveness, reconciliation, salvation, among others. However, in the last 3 months my Christian compassion has met up with outraged maternity, and I have to tell you that so far Christian compassion is getting it's butt whipped. I know my daughter wants to restore this marriage. I don't understand it, but I accept it as her desire. If he wanted to work towards the same goal, all her siblings, and her parents, would put aside (with difficulty, I must admit) what he has done and do our best to help them make it succeed. However, at this point in time, I find it impossible personally to donate the donkey of a rodent (give a....) over agonizing about whatever he feels he didn't "get" out of the marriage. Piffle. If all this Plan A/Plan B stuff is as effective as people seem to believe it will be, more power to the Plans. But for right now, I have a "plan" of my own. It's Plan NHLNBBAGS..SS (Nuclear Holocaust Leaving Nothing Behind But A Grease Spot..Size Small). I realize MY plan can't really be implemented (I have no nuclear device), nor can I throw a noose around his idiot head (guess which one?), pull it tight, and string him up from the nearest lampost, either...but a mother can DREAM, can't she?

Well, my bra has just shrunk 3 whole sizes, but it still feels good to have gotten that off my chest!!!!!!!! Before I take my now-concave bosom off to sleep, I'd like to thank all of you who have contributed to my daughter's threads. Reading your answers, she has laughed more in the last week than in the last 3 months combined. She has taken control of her situation in a much better way and with greater effect. I have been pleased to see some of her sparkle return. I'm sorry that the advice you have been able to give her has been bought at such a personal cost to each of you, but I am still grateful to you for sharing and helping her realize that she's in good company. I think we should get a card together and write a group thank you to Al Gore for inventing the internet, so that no one HAS to suffer alone! Thank you very much. Muchas gracias. Mahalo nui loa. Spacibo horosho. Danke schoen. Merci beaucoup. Arrigato gozai mashta. I just can't say thank you enough.

Aw, Mom! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Well, the advice is to vent to the forum, not to the WS, so I guess that applies to MIL of the WS, too. Donate a donkey, indeed - that was a good one! Hope you feel better now.

'neakies mom said -


And 'neak you said that he couldn't handle you sleeping in another room even for a few hours.

WAT and Spidey,

I am wondering, and what do you both think about 'neak doing a 180 to help knock him off the fence? A 180, given him being so spoiled by her might prevent Plan B from having to be implemented.

Is it "worth a try" WATSO?

180??? Is that being distant and not doing anything for him? Eagerly awaiting the replies.

Hi weave - here's my understanding of the 180. Let's be specific that we're talking about the Michelle Weiner-Davis ("Divorce Busters") 180, i.e., doing an about face in the way you treat your spouse.

To me, the 180 is practically the same as Plan A. You reverse any bad behavior or negative contributions you are making to the marriage. I don't agree what some have stated that you reverse ALL behavior - just to be noticed. Why start doing something bad when you were doing it good all along? Perhaps I don't fully understand the 180.

Your take on it?

WAT

Also, Weaver, that was the night of the Big Rant, when I was the lowest f***** piece of s**** on the planet, and he still couldn't stick to sleeping on the couch. Maybe I'd better come back and edit this later before my BAMOABS wakes up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In neaks case it would be meeting his needs a little less, and meeting more of her own.

Such as being a bit mysterious, going out somewhere and having him watch the children, being somewhat distant.

While still avoiding the LB's/DJ's.

It sounds like she has always taken care of him quite well.

It also sounds like he is very attached to her.

If she pulls back and makes him wonder what she is thinking, feeling, up to...it just might make drive him crazy.

Men who are feeling a bit crazy about a woman who might be withdrawing, aren't so likely to want to be with another woman.

I just think that his needs not being met were not the problem in this marriage, based on what neaks mom has said and what I have read that neak has said.

One more thought though, for WAT and Spidey (you too 'neakers)...and I'm just trying to think strategics.

Plan B does have it's merits for a BS whose WS did not end the affair upon discovery, and that is the implementation of clear boundaries such as the NC letter, MC, etc.

It is easier to get a repentant xWS this way from what I have seen on this board based on the people who didn't go to Plan B and never really entered a real recovery.

Just thinking.

Want to quickly through in a few points. I have to admit to not having read here thoroughly.

Steve H. specifically does not approve of the Michele-Weiner approach as I mentioned it to him in my counseling.

My Mother, bless her heart, was not a good influence. It would been horrific for her to read my posts here. She was too biased towards me and against my FWH. She couldn't help herself.

Just my two cents.

Try to stick to the MB System! It is working for NOT SO!!

I was going to address the origins of the A at some point anyway, and this looks like as good a time as any. As my mom mentioned, I am a writer, and during the critical time when this was starting, I was trying desperately to finish my second book in time to have it considered in the next batch from my publisher, otherwise it would have been an additional year before reaping any income from it.

WH & I were in very bad financial condition leading up to this. He had just started a new job & it was almost 2 months before he got his first check, and at the same time his destitute 500-lb uncle moved in with us for about five months, straining the grocery budget further.

At the same time, a newly married friend of ours split up, leaving his 2 DS's in need of day care, so I took them over 3 afternoons a week. Between them & my own 3 destructos the house became very chaotic. It would take about a day-and-a-half to get cleaned up afterwards, and by then it was time to go get them again. Still, for several months it was not just our only food money, it was our only money. Living with GP to take care of him meant we didn't have to worry about being out on the street, but it was still a tight, difficult time.

WH says there were several times he tried to talk to me about the problems/distance he felt, and I don't remember it at all. It never registered. I'm not trying to make excuses, but I was under so much pressure trying to help out with providing for our family that I didn't notice anything at all. I just don't remember him ever trying to talk to me.

That coincided with a growing friendship with a single woman who had no children (and didn't want any), and who gladly gave him a shoulder to cry on when his wife was 'too busy' for him, and it all went from there. Her quiet house, occupied by only her, her XBF & XBF's GF (ok, that's a little twisted), and at least one dog, must have been a huge contrast to the ongoing hurricane down here.

The very first thing I did when I finally found out there was trouble was to give notice about the day care. We were still short, but at least some money had started coming in by then so I knew we could do it. Actually, in my desperation to pack as much love as possible into each second of the day so if he left I would know I had done everything I could, I went a bit overboard. One example would be sitting there rubbing his aching feet while he sat at the computer and IM'd the OW, just trying to make sure he remembered I was still there. DON'T WORRY! NO MORE OF THAT GARBAGE NOW!!!!!

I did neglect myself horribly, more at first, and the children too, figuring that if I didn't do something drastic at least for a while, they would have a broken home and that would be more damaging in the long run. But as soon as it sank in that this was going to be long haul rather than just a couple of weeks, I began altering my strategies accordingly.

Not everything in my unwitting Plan A was on target, but I avoided the worst of the pitfalls, at least I think so. My ideas were already becoming more balanced by the time I discovered MB, and my goal all along had been to make home such an attractive, welcoming place that he wouldn't want to leave, and avoiding unnecessary conflict.

I am convinced that I have succeeded. I would bet the bottom dollar in my short stack that he does not want to go. The way he sleeps has made me suspect for a while that pulling back a little might be effective. It's like this...

He usually sleeps with his back to me, scooted close to a convenient distance for snuggling, and I gladly oblige. But if I turn over, he turns over too, and snuggles me. Not that there's deep psychological significance directly, but it does illustrate what his mind set has been. Each time he has thought, rightly or wrongly, that I was trying to put a little distance between us, he immediately reacted and reached out to me. We may be onto something here. An Achilles heel, perhaps?