Notso:

Having been through this, I have some feedback from my experience. Given the addictiveness of the A, it is hard for them to break it off. He is tempted to want to cake-eat. The BS has to be careful not to enable this. That being said, sounds like your H needs to come up with a definite PLAN to keep this from happening. I don't hear the seriousness about the need to never see or talk to her again in his LIFETIME. EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES or necessary to prevent contact FOREVER. A conversation needs to be held to address the importance of this LIFETIME-FOREVER condition. H, WHAT IS OUR PLAN? WE NEED TO PUT THIS IN ACTION TODAY, RIGHT THIS MINUTE!!

If it sounds like he does not have a PLAN, does not want to put into IMMEDIATE ACTION, then PLAN B in the BACK POCKET!!!!

Certainly, there is a need for ANOTHER NC LETTER. This is a new D-DAY for you. It starts all over again with each contact.

I'm sorry this is happening for you.

Hm, not_so, 2 tmes in 3 days. PLEASE remember how a CHILD will consistently probe and push boundaries you have set, in order to find out of you really MEAN them, if they are really THERE. You are dealing with this SAME phenomina here.

YOU are in the position of power right now. Your H is pushing the boundaries, but I truly don't think he is consciously trying to cake-eat. It is as Mimi said, these things are soooo incredibly addictive, they follow a very predictable pattern.

Honestly, I would insist your H gets a new cell number. I know it is an inconvenience, BUT, if the contact window has been opened by him, she will be unable to reach him THAT way, at least. Plus, perhaps the "shake-up" is what your H needs to get out of the habit of so easily getting his "fix."

Because that is what it is, you know. He starts hemming and hawing on the inside, missing something about the A, and comes up with a REALLY good reason (yes, justification/rationalization) in his head to contact her.

Explain to him that it will be hard for him. Harder than maybe anything he has ever done. BUT, unless he wants to go pack up his stuff and leave, it WILL be done. You are willing to help him, work together as a team with him, but that is what you expect, or he has got to go.

You have to help him to find proper motivation. Since we cannot control anything that is alive (except ourselves), that means he must be properly influenced by you.

What kinds of things have you said to him about this? You haven't been letting your anger out ~ good. Has he seen your pain? What is your boundary?

Spidey

I agree with Spidey's post. Yes, the cake-eating is not conscious. It's part of the addiction to her drug. Think of her as a drugdealer and him wanting to get that high. This is for YOU to understand. He may be too foggy to really get this yet.

Most definitely a new cell number immediately. I remember my H "hemming and hawing" on this early on and she continued to call and leave messages even if it was not turned off. It was like a spell that the OW could cast upon him just by the sound of her voice.... YUK!!!

An alcoholic cannot go to a bar or have liquor in the house...

Given that he is still in the FOG, a lot of explanation may not sink in to him. Definitely a need to set boundaries and limits, come up with a definite plan....

Thank you Mimi & Spidey. (Weaver, I'll keep an eye out to see if you get your questions back.) All your very sensible suggestions were very helpful. It is so awful to be back in the same trembling place, unable to eat or focus. I'll be kissing good-bye the couple of pounds I had managed to gain back.

I'll be back this evening to add more detail of how I am dealing with this, but regarding the cell phone, what I am going to try first is to have him see if the phone company can block her number at their level, since it's a business phone and all his important people call him on it. Failing that, it would either be a new number or trading phones with me (mine is brand-new and she does not have that number). Either way it's a hassle, but I will do anything. I CANNOT LIVE LIKE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

I told him I had not realized until he did this just how closely my budding feeling of security was tied to his NC. No NC, zero security. In fact, right now I think I'm well into the negative. In my depleted and weakened condition, I don't think I would have a chance of dealing with this had I not had a little break first to regain a small measure of strength (which is mostly gone after only 2 days). Sorry to be so gloomy, but thanks for your help in carrying me through this.

Hi Notso,

We have never been introduced, though I have read a bit on your post. I have not been through what you are going through (I am a FWS). But, I hope you don’t mind if I pipe in and offer up my view.

Okay, so there is this whole addiction thing, and working it through stuff, BUT you guys are all bein' too easy on this man!

I don't mean to dismiss the importance of working together being patient and I know that relapse can happen. But relapse can STOP too!

IMHO if he STILL has the audacity to so much as contact her—it’s because he still doesn’t believe he has to CHOOSE.

Do you think he REALLY would have done it if he thought FOR SURE it meant that he would NEVER have you as his partner again? Obviously not. He said he’s sorry. He doesn’t want to lose you, he just doesn’t get it that he MUST choose YOU or he will lose you.

He’s doing it, because he can get away with it. The consequence isn’t that he gets kicked out or loses you, the consequence is that you get hurt, shrivel up and loose a few pounds.

When HE has to pay the consequence, THAT is when he will learn.

Sorry if I sound rough, but this guy needs a SERIOUS reality check.

I don't know him, or all that much about your specific situation, but here is something (short of Plan B) that you can DO (as opposed to SAY) to define a boundary.

Pack a bag for him. Place it in the corner of your bedroom. Just leave it there. When he asks what it is, let him know that its his "CONTACT" bag. The next time he chooses to break NC, he is choosing to use the suitcase.

You shouldn't have to keep going through this. He is damn lucky you are even having these conversations trying to figure out how to save your M. Too damn bad if the A addiction is hard or hurts. It is NOT insurmountable. Tell him to go for a jog or to call you if he has the urge. GET OVER IT BUDDY OR GET OUT!

Okay. There's my two cents.

Hang in there, you sound like you have a lot of family support and some great supporters here.

I think AHUMAN has a point. We have been easy on him. However, I'm not so sure about the suitcase idea. I'll have to think about my opinion on that. He might like that option given his fogginess. FOGGY-BRAIN thinking: "She doesn't want me anyways", etc.

However, the most valuable point, in my opinion, made by AHUMAN is:



Why hasn't he thought of a strategy to use when he gets the urge? He can easily call you. He even could have come on line here. Now that I think about this it does sound fishy...

I would think this should be spelled out in the plan that you guys work out.....

Neak's younger sister is considered by most people to be shy, quiet, and without much to say. Ha!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> They have no clue, although you have to take the time to get acquainted with her before you can begin to get her real flavor. I just read her the most recent posts over the phone, since she's babysitting/homeschooling Neak's kids this morning (Mama seems to be having a bad day, for some reason <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />) and didn't think she had time to go online and read them for herself, nor did she want to wait until tonight when everybody's in bed to find out what was going on. She had a particularly strong reaction to Ahuman's post. In fact, she ACCUSED me of having a secret online identity so I could say the things I really thought should be done, without anybody knowing it was me. "Are you SURE you aren't sneaking on in disguise?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It's a good thing I know she was joking!! I MAY be a human (there has been some past dispute about this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />), but I am definitely a different (generic) human than Ahuman, and the 2 of us should not be confused with one another by anybody, including family members. So Neak, thank the nice lady for her advice, whether you take it or not, and don't be blaming me because somebody else happens to agree with me that the semi-replicant has had WAY too much slack cut for him, and his tether needs shortening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You've got a truck; I'll provide you with the winch for him AND the wench. Let the tightening begin. Thank you, Ahuman; in my sleep today I bless you. Even if nothing is done that remotely resembles your recommendation, it was still nice to hear somebody say it. t&l <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I LOVE this. Sorry, Mimi, I might not be thinking through every angle on this, but . . . I love this! Sometimes, people who are not thinking clearly need a VISUAL reminder of what needs to be done. For instance, I have a skirt that I want to wear on my birthday hanging out where I can see it, because I need to lose 10 pounds to fit in it properly (thank goodness my birthday is 2 months away!). This provides me with a visual reminder of my goals, and also the consequence if I choose to NOT follow my plan (not getting to wear said skirt).

Especially for Neak's H, who apparently really does NOT want to leave the house.

I agree with Ahuman's post in another regard. I started to post this on my last reply, but deleted it. Do you have any rules in your house that your kids just DO NOT question? Something that you have made VERY clear in the past, that they don't even argue with you about? For instance, I have a few antiques that were my mother's. My kids do not play with these (some are functional) antiques, they do not allow their friends to either. They don't ask me to use them, they don't horseplay near them, they don't even DUST them when that is their chore.

This from boys who still need to be reminded each morning and each night to brush their teeth! Obviously, I haven't set that boundary very firmly. Anyway, that is a non-negotiable deal in my home. THAT is what NC should be to you, as well. Because if he thinks that his only consequence is hurting your feelings, he won't stop.

IMO, his mind is not thinking about YOU right now. He is thinking about HIM right now. He must find something larger than HIMself, to think about, in his weak moments. When I want to eat chips at 9 pm, I go look at my skirt (or if I'm too lazy, I just think about it). I need something bigger than those chips (my long-term GOAL) to keep me from eating them.

Perhaps I have oversimplified, but . . . I REALLY like the NC Bag. Especially in your sitch.

Spidey

I kind of like the NC bag too. That's why I said I wasn't sure about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think as long as NOT SO makes it clear that leaving would be HIS CHOICE that HE MADE by not following the NC PLAN the bag might be a great visual reminder for him.

My FWH was looking for any reason to leave, early on, during our TWO FALSE RECOVERIES.. almost THREE... YUK!!!!

Yuk is right. Based on the talking we have been doing, I think I am not quite ready for the bag yet, though I love the idea. He is saying, and most importantly DOING enough to try and show his sincerity that I think we may be able to just move forward. HOWEVER!!!!! If it happens again, I will pack the Contact Bag and have it ready before I even talk to him.

We had a MC appt today, sadly abbreviated by our late arrival after dropping the car off at the shop a-gain (sigh), and only had a few minutes to go over some basic happy marriage stuff, but Friday night we are supposed to meet again and will be able to get into some of these other Very Important Things.

I'm so glad today is almost over. It has not been fun. H has at least been able to give enough to be supportive through it, for which I am grateful. Things could always be worse.

Well, please be careful about the "if it happens again" kind of talk. It can quickly turn into the "I am gonna start a diet on Monday syndrome". Each time that you say "if it happens again" and DO NOTHING, you lose more credibility.

I guess you can find some solace in the fact that "things could be worse". That is true. The false recoveries are all par for the course. Hang in there.

LM

What are YOU TWO doing so that it will not happen again?

Did you change the cellphone number?

Does he have a strategy in place to use when he has the urge? He will have the urge!

I would recommend that you not wait until Friday to rely on the marriage counselor for this. Sounds like more stalling unless you left something out.

I'm sorry, NOT SO. It's not almost over....

Even if there's NC, there's withdrawal and the hard road of recovery!

Hi, LM, thanks for posting. I will take the Monday morning diet warning very much to heart. This time around we will be implementing some procedures that were not in place before - probably should have been, but that is Monday morning quarterbacking - and I have hope that it will be enough. Should that fail, the Contact Bag carries a great deal of appeal (in addition to H's clothing), as a next step up. Even if I wanted to "next time next time" this, I am too drained. It takes much less energy to stand up for myself than to live in limbo while things drag on and on, and back and forth.

Also, I function best with a plan; it doesn't matter whether it's dealing with an A or the grocery shopping. I like to have decided ahead of time, if this happens I do this, or if that happens I do that instead. My mind craves order, and with 3 small children doesn't get it very often. But I digress.

I am still working out the specifics of what must happen this time in the way of precautions. Several I have already decided on, but the Neak server is running slowly, & I'm still trying to mentally sort everything out amid a myriad of small domestic crises. I'll get there, but I'm going to go try & eat supper before I digress again.

No, I'm not going to wait for the MC to help us sort this out, but if there's anything else we haven't covered by then I hope he will help us with that.

Today, as I mentioned, has been a bad day, & not just because of this. I am trying very hard to set aside for now the rest of my stresses to be able to focus better on this, because it is the more important. I am not procrastinating - I just got hit with everything at once. I'll get it sorted out somehow.

Just walked in the door to a call from Neak. Dear WSIL has been having crushing chest pain since last night, unresponsive to antacids, and he refuses to go to the hospital. They want me to come over and assess him and give some sage medical advice. Hm-m-m-m-m. What to do? What to say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And you thought I might be too hard on him!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Either I'm nicer to him than people were thinking, or else he's a VERY trusting soul, isn't he? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> t&l

LOL.......... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> "Crushing" chest pain since last night is DEFINITELY NOT his heart. True cardiac chest pain would have probably killed him by now if it were "real".

I can think of a few manuevers to offer him, but I might get sued for malpractice.

LM

"Dear WSIL"........I thought that he was a FWSIL?

LM

BURNING chest pain.




("That's 'tray-tore', Son." -The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!)

Desperate to avoid getting dragged anywhere, a king-size dose of Pepto at last made a difference, apparently counteracting the onions in my delicious potato salad, which H has been ingesting at regular intervals.....since last night.

PS You are quite correct, LM, he is a FWSIL. Whether still or again, that is exactly what he is.