I still can't reply. I am on firefox but can't see messages if I am logged in either. Oh well...

Thank you all for your support. Are you suggesting that I not vent at him, but at the board??? I just sent him an email that kinda ticked him off because I made him feel bad about something he did (good move <smacks forehead>). I apologized of course, telling him that I was just reacting. He says he needs to do this on his own terms. How can he ask me to trust him after everything that's happened (and in case anyone is wondering it was an EA with one kiss, he says)? How can I just sit back and wait for him to do this?? I know that I am pushing him but I also know that making demands is only going to make things worse. I just need to sit with him tonight and tell him that I am having trouble with self control and I will make a better effort not to blow up at him. It seems like he is very remorseful and is trying to make things better for me (another good sign). But there are still triggers, of course, that set me off and make me just wanna give him a piece of my mind. I'm so hurt. SO HURT. I know why he did it. I know how long, I know everytime they met (in public) but maybe I feel like I can never know enough. I can never ask too many questions. But this of course will frustrate him. Should I keep things to myself until he brings them up to keep him from getting defensive? He seems to respond to my questions really well when he is the one to initiate the conversation. I think that's the best idea. And I'll give him a code so that if I'm upset and he can see it and wants to know what's wrong, I can let him know without actually bringing up the subject. How do you like them apples??

P.S. Food isn't appealing at all right now. I just need to force feed myself right now, huh? Thank you for the concern. I needed the motivation. I'm starting to get dehydrated. :0(

Ok, I fixed it. Can reply now.

You're OK, you're fine. It's not going to ruin everything that you got upset. Before you read any further, go get something to drink and bring it back with you to sip while you read. Something sugary if you have it.

OK. So you had some trouble with self-control. No problem. It's no big. You don't have to TELL him you're having trouble with self-control. You already apologized. I don't think I would apologize again unless he makes a big deal out of it. And if he does. Just agree with him. Do the babble!

This last year - our bad year, before/during/after upsets (small ones- big ones it was all the same), I think Phil got off on it a little - not because he liked fighting, when we did argue, he got the feeling of being in control of a situation. He tried to act as if everything was fine and he got to feel kind of superior because I was acting upset while he kept it together (but not really).

You know, this is another one of those self-protection things that in the long-term, didn’t really work for him. I wonder how much of this is really just male reaction stuff. I hate thinking men are different from women, but maybe in some ways they are...? I do see this with women relating to women incidentally.

I don’t know if there is an analytic term for this kind of thing – passive aggressive doesn't seem to fit exactly. It was a way for Phil to feel empowered and after a while I wasn't interested in arguing. For us, the argument didn't matter. He wasn't listening to me. He wasn't thinking about me. He was thinking about himself. So now what I think is: "OK Phil, you can have the power, but you're going to have to make it yourself. I'm not fighting with you."

It's fun doing the opposite. He doesn't know what to do. In usability design, this is exactly what we don't want people to do. We don't want people to have to stop and think. But in relating to our husbands and wives, I think it's exactly what we want. We want them to have to stop and think. In that moment a lot of negative momentum is lost! You can smile and move forward.

Some people, therapists, parents, friends, they think that the most important thing is to be right, to win people over to your side of things. That fighting is part of communicating. If you're not fighting you're not expressing yourselves. For me a lot of that is more blah blah. I don't like to fight. That doesn't mean I'm going to be a doormat, it just means arguing is not for me. Being right is not always going to be right for me later...

The other thing that me being upset accomplished for Phil was that it was a way out with me. I never was able to live up to the ideal he wanted in his head but wasn’t going to tell me. So every time I responded negatively to something (even when a negative response was appropriate) he had a self-manufactured, and still very reasonable explanation to tell himself (and others) for why he was seeking out other, more understanding women… and it was all ultimately stuff he could blame on me!

You're going to do better next time. Small steps. It's not going to be all great all of the time but you'll start feeling a little more comfortable with some small successes. Sometimes putting a smile on is a success. You should be proud of yourself for meeting that challenge.

I'll restructure what Weaver told me that was so helpful. Just try one hour with no LB's, no DJ's, no relationship talk, no pressure. Then the next hour and so on.

Set yourself a small goal like you want to do two solid Plan A hours - 'cuz you have to start somewhere. Think of it like training. You're training yourself to go longer, farther. In marathon training we call it Long, Slow, Distance.

Like the Cake song -- she's going the distance! :-)

Sally

Thank you, Sally. Are you and Phil still having problems or are things getting better? I'm sorry. I did not look up your story before I started my reply...

I don't think he gets any satisfaction out of argueing. In fact when we do have productive talks we go out of our way to avoid sarcasm, put downs, raised voices, etc. It's more like a debate (which, lol, he happens to be really good at, and I of course suck). D-day of course was really aweful. I BLEW UP and he just stood there, tucked his hands behind his back and stuck his face out so I could hit him (which I thought about doing, but then I couldn't hurt him like that). Then we separated for about 10 minutes and both of us were calm and ready to deal with what had happened (debate style). Not sure why I just said all that except maybe to get it out...

Anyway, I managed to get half a bowl of grits down (sugar'd & butter'd) so I'm feeling a little better. It's just so hard to think about eating right now. I did Tae Bo earlier when I was getting upset about things and I felt a little better afterward but then I needed to cry. So, that's what I did. My kids must think I'm crazy, lol!

Thanks again for listening. I can't talk to family or friends about this right now. Take care and I'll post again later.

Hi happypanda!
This is perfect! Don't forget to have a glass of water or juice too.
That's what I ate myself when I started to do a little better. Half for me and then I gave the rest to the Labs.

Yes, for the longest time, Phil and I argued in this manner too. We were always very civil, never raised our voices until this past year and we always tried to each get our point across respectfully but what I took away from it finally, was that Phil really wasn't listening to me (which I will come back to later in this post) and he *WAS* getting something out of it.

He got to act like he was in control -- not of me -- but of himself. He got to act rational even though that wasn't always how he felt. He got to feel just a little bit like he was above it all -- above losing his temper, above telling me what was really the problem, above telling me how horrible he really felt inside. All things that came out only recently.

This may not be at all like what you are experiencing, but one word really stood out for me:

It was that you compare your talks to a debate. In a debate, each person takes a side; they oppose each other.
The first person to speak opens with a proposition - a short speech and the second person to speak, the opposition, also opens with a speech.

Then a second round of short speeches is repeated by the two opponents.

Then there are usually a few rounds of rebuttal between the opponents.

At the end of the debate, judges decide the winner based on how effective the speakers were at conveying the validity of the case presented.

Phil and I used to do this as a means of discussion and it's a bad trap. It all seems very civil and polite but the flaws are very real:

In a debate between two a wife and husband at home, there are no judges. You are the debaters and you are also the judges. This is not a good combination.

There can't be impartiality. You can't objectively listen to one another because you each are preparing or presenting your case to the other.

In a debate, you are not trying to sway your opponent. Your job is simply to present a better case with which to sway the judges. Think about a court of law...

So when you're debating, you're having a discussion involving opposing points of view (an argument) but there is no DIALOG or what I would consider an exchange of ideas.

One is deconstructive, the other constructive. I know it seems like a picky way of looking at things, but maybe this will help give you an idea of what I mean. Think about how you discuss things with your H now... you debate, it's very respectful, sometimes you're probably really tired when you're done talking.

Then think back on how you used to discuss things with your H a long time ago when you first started dating. You probably both talked and shared ideas and interrupted each other and it was not only not bad, it was fun right? You felt energized from being together. You shared opinions about things and learned from each other...

Phil and I really, truly thought we were doing a good job. I don't think he ever thought he was trying to put me down or that I was putting him down. It just turned out that we would have been better off if we'd continued to talk with each other more in the style of those early dates.

I think it was a something someone would have had to explain to us and there wasn't anyone to make that distinction when we needed it...

What do you think? Do you think there is anything to this or am I too far off base?? :-) Does this give you some ideas? If it does, maybe you could even discuss it with your H? Share some thoughts? Ask what he thinks?

Sally

HappyPanda,

Phil and I are deep in the weeds right now. He moved out at the very end of January. :-( I just found out about his A a few weeks ago. He only admitted it to me this past Sunday... so I'm trying to do Plan A and hoping and praying and listening and also trying to remember to eat! :-)

There was something about the way you said you weren't eating that grabbed me. You actually reminded me that I needed to eat too. You really helped me out there! Thank you! We'll help each other :-)

Sally

Hi HP,

How are you doing? After re-reading my own posts to you, I wanted to say, I wasn't implying that you and H are heading for trouble the way Phil and I experienced it, only that the discussion style was something you might want to consider.

Sorry if I came across to strong there. Come back and let us know how you are. :-)

Sally