I signed the D papers two weeks ago. FWH and I agreed that we would file a mutual consent D, but he didn't show up at the lawyers, so his part remains unsigned.

I hardly spoke to him since... have been trying hard to come to terms with my loss. The past two weeks have been hellish. Lack of sleep, impatience, forgetfullness, loneliness, anger, remorse, doubt, sadness have all moved in.

I read a book on saving marriages and felt deep sense of regret for my part in the breakdown of the marriage. I have been too critical, for one. I was remorseful for days. I almost asked for a second chance, till my friend reminded me that FWH's basic character is immature and irresponsible, and lying and avoidance has been his second nature.

I deserve better.
So here I am. Working it out in my head, trying to move on, trying to find some happiness in everyday things. I have to keep telling myself the vision of marriage that I want is only in my head, not reality. The vision of a husband that I want is only in my head, not reality. What I want for a husband and in my marriage is not what FWH wants. This is the only way to keep me from turning back to 'salvage' the marriage.

At times I am confused. You would be too, if you only sleep three hours a day. Anyone who could share how long this misery would last? Or how to move on positively?
____
Me: BS, 38, separated two years. No children.

It lasts as long as it needs to for each person - it is an individual thing, and I also think it depends on the situation too. I have gone through it twice now - the first time was worse because I had no experience at dealing with it. This time is worse because there was more worth saving. But, I'm moving on better this time than before.

Most importantly I discovered Tylenol PM - a person simply can't function in times of confusion with no sleep besides!

Whats wrong with a second chance? although have you even considered the reason why HE wouldn't want to go back to your marriage??

You say he's a former WH , do you beleive he has ended the relationship with the OW? If so, why NOT ask to give the marriage a second try with some Marraige counseling and proper boundaries?

"till my friend reminded me that FWH's basic character is immature and irresponsible, and lying and avoidance has been his second nature."

Who cares what your friend thinks here? this is YOUR MARRIAGE, YOUR LIFE, You and your family are the ones who have to live with your decisions and choices, not her, they don't effect her life.

Here are some things for you to consider as to why he might not want to come back to the marriage even if you were to want to try again

--I have to keep telling myself the vision of marriage that I want is only in my head, not reality.

This may have been true in the past, but is he not capable of changing?? By your own admittance your changing, so why can't HE??

--The vision of a husband that I want is only in my head, not reality.

Is it possible the vision he has in his head of a wife has only been in his head as well?? I am sure he had no intentions of marrying someone who nags at him (much like a MOTHER would be a child to get their chores done)

--What I want for a husband and in my marriage is not what FWH wants.

Have you asked him what he wants in a marriage?? Or are you speculating as to what he wants?

Yes, it may be true that He isn't what you 'expected' of a husband and again, I'm sure he didn't 'expect' to have a critical wife either.

What did you 'expect' of a husband when you married?

What did he 'expect' of a wife? Are you what he expected?

We all have preconceived notions of what we 'think' marriage will be like, and is supposed to be like, and we ALL have to come to terms with the reality that it isn't always what we expected. This person we married really does have flaws, they really can't meet every single one of our needs.

So we ask ourselves, can we continue to live with these imperfections? Certainly, there are some nobody should have to live with especially when it comes to abuses (verbal, physical, sexual and mental) and continued infidelity.

I don't know all the things you were critical of him about, but I do know what it is like to live with a critical person
where you begin to believe there is nothing you can do that will EVER please this person, so why try??

If they can't accept that I have done MY personal best, They can do it themselves, so that whatever it is, is done perfectly to their own standards of perfection. It's not up to me to live up to their 'perfection' and some misguided expectation they have placed on me.

It's up to them to accept me for who I am imperfect and all,
just as it's up to me to accept them for who they are imperfect and all. And decide if we can live with those imperfections because we love them.

--FWH's basic character is immature and irresponsible, and lying and avoidance has been his second nature.

I'm curious is it possible your husband has remained an immature, irresponsible, lying conflict avoider because nothing he does is good enough for you?? (as described by yourself of your being critical of everything he does or doesn't do??)

If you knew whatever you did was going to be critized would you lie to avoid the WRATH of the person whose standards you couldn't meet, but that you loved and wanted to make happy??

Have you considered going back and apologizing to him for being so critical of him?

I'm sure (having been married to someone whose standards I couldn't meet) he probably felt you acted more like his mother and not his wife. His partner, his helper. It is quite possible he felt you treated him as if he were still a child, so why act mature? why act responsible?

I'm not meaning to sound harsh here, but just wanting to give you another way of looking at how you contributed to the breakdown of your marriage and put the focus on yourself
and things you can change, and off of his actions. And show you why *he* might not want to even consider going back to your marriage. (even if *you* wanted to try again)

he's probably feeling much relief not living with a nagging and contentious wife. And will probably grow and mature by leaps and bounds not having anyone to answer to.

again, I'm not trying to sound harsh, and I'm not trying to make excuses for him, only suggesting areas within yourself
that YOU can personally change. You can't change him, you can't make him feel guilty for not pleasing you and living up to your standards to make him want to change.

However, you can show grace, acceptance and appreciation of Him as a person in what HE does do and for what he did bring to the marriage, just as you also wanted from him.

Stop long enough and look at his positive attributes and I'm sure you will find there were many things he did that you appreciated, and loved about him. Which is why you married him to begin with. And ask yourself, why was I always so critical??

What is it about yourself, that you found the need to critize him all the time? Was that the kind of house you grew up in? That there was more critisim than acceptance?

people are that way, if you constantly put them down,
they never feel acceptance or lovable, and they tend to grow up trying to prove they are lovable to someone, even with all their flaws.

Would you want to remain married to someone who was always belittling you?

DejaVu, I wish there's Tylenol PM here! I get bad headaches all day when I don't get enough sleep.

Thorned Rose, thank you for taking so much time in writing your reply. I appreciate it. Very much of what you say is what FWH has communicated to me.

Yes, I have thought of asking for a second chance, but I struggle with that thought everyday, because I know it isn't going to be easy. I know that it would be more manageable with counsellors, but FWH isn't keen on counselling.

I have seen two psycharists, the first one a woman, she did not believe in marriage building and completely tore FHW's character down. The other one is a man, but is more interested in digging up the past than anything else. I felt I haven't moved on from these two people.

You are right on most things you've said, Thorned. I criticize too much, and yes, I can imagine having to live with someone who is constantly unhappy. But I am not like that all the time. All I want is a little love and affection, a little time and attention.

I would like us to do things together, like going to the movies or reading a book or plainly just enjoying each other's company in the comfort of our home. FWH? He is too busy pursuing a new hobby-- motor sports, and spends every weekend at the races. He has secret accounts, switches off his cell phone so he can't be reached, hey, I don't even know where he lives. And no, I don't trust him at all. I don't trust that he will love and protect me and care for me for always. For many years, he has been selfish and acted out his selfishness with no conscience.

And yes, I am put in the mother role. I am over responsible. That's only because he doesn't pay the bills and sometimes we have no electricity, no phone and no water. Yes, I wash, cook and clean, that's because he sleeps till noon and 'goes to the office' every weekend. Only now, I learnt the office is a fancy hotel where he meets OW.

How do I love a person who has hurt me so much? How do I trust FWH without him building that trust?

I want to put the past behind me.
At this point, I don't know if FWH and I will try working at the marriage again. But what's important for me today is to learn from what you have said (and I am going to print it out as a reminder) so that I will be a 'better' person in my next relationship. I can't tell you how important this is to me, not to make the same mistake, but yet to have balance in my relationships.

When both of us agreed to the D, I have stopped bringing up the past. I have stop wanting anything from him. I have stopped all the criticism. I do this because I feel I shouldn't want anything from him. I feel he is resistant to giving. I can no longer be in a marriage like this... wanting all the time and him witholding to hurt me.

I am sorry for how I have behaved towards FWH, and how I have taken so much for granted, though I didn't realise it at the time. I have apologised to him, but probably not enough.

I am sorry that you too, have lived with a person like me. But today, I am thankful that you took the trouble to be my mirror. I feel less pain for myself when I understood all the pain I have caused.

God bless, R

About Tylenol PM - dunno why you can't get some. But see if you can find a way. They really help with sleep.

A word about second chances: everything I read about them on MB I shudder a bit. I wonder just what a "second chance" really is? What has to be proved? By whom? Who decided if the chance worked or not? Based on what? And isn't "second chance" really another word for ultimatum? and I could go on and on...

I was given a "second chance" over a year ago, by an H with a critical eye who had already decided what I was like. The "second chance" - according to our MC and my IC who saw us together - was that I had a chance to singlehandedly fix the M, and do it by myself overnight. He had no intention of engaging in the process - I was the one who had wounded HIM and was not what HE wanted, so it was up to me to become the person he wanted. He was not interested in my feelings or needs at that point.

Talk about a setup for failure?

When there are so many hard feelings, and so much baggage - I honestly don't know how people can recover. How does one forget? Change his/her perception of the other person? Get rid of the baggage? And most importantly, summon the energy to accomplish all that, while keeping day-to-day life going - especially since day-to-day life is often what interferes with communication in the first place.

Maybe someone else can answer this. For me, when it gets to second chances it is already too late. It means significant problems have been ignored, and significant hurts have already happened.

Ruffled,

There is much to be learned from the past when looked at with the right motivations.

If we look at the past in order to learn and grow from our mistakes much is to be gained. However, if we only look at the past in order to continue to tear down, wallow there and make excuses for our actions nothing but trouble comes.

If we can look at our past in order to gain understanding of how we became who we are, and how we came to our beliefs and expecations and learn to make changes based on truth and honesty we can grow.

And your right, it isn't easy to make changes even within ourselves.

Is it wrong of your husband to want to have hobbies outside of the marriage? No, it's not. Is it wrong for those hobbies to take ALL of his time away from his marriage and family
yes, it is.

making sure the bills are paid is not a 'mother' role, it is something that either one or both spouses work together to make sure is done. As part of the partnership that is marriage. And because it is a partnership it should be worked at together with both spouses, that way, both people know what they have.

Do you love your FWH? I realize you don't trust him right now, but do you still love him?

I have come to understand that loving someone doesn't mean I do everything they want, or even put up with everything they do. There must be boundaries with consequences you can stand firm in.

If you want to spend money on motor racing, the household bill's must be paid first, if you continue ignoring the household bill's and the electric or water is turned off then I will do XYZ. (selling items to ensure they are paid)

If you continue seeing OW, the locks on the doors will be changed so that you can not come and go here as you please.

it's not saying you don't love the person, it's saying you will not continue to tolerate certain behaviors that are needed to be in an "intimate" relationship with you.

Have you read the book Boundaries? Or Boundaries in Marriage? I think one of those will help you understand more fully what I'm saying.

Hi both,

I hope both of you had a good day today.
I thought much about what you said and some things came clearer to me.

I need to write this down so one day when I am on this ebb and tide of confusion again, here's where I'll have my answers.

[color:"blue"] Do I love him? [/color]
ThornedRose, yes, I love H. I do. I have known him for almost twenty years now and there isn't a single day that I don't love him. I have had other intimate relationships and none of them had that deep love I felt for H. That was why I married him.

I married him knowing his weaknesses- he could not manage his money ten years ago, and he still hasn't learnt how to. I love him because he is spontaneous, and I am not. He hasn't had much education, but I believed he would succeed and I encouraged him to pursue a career he hesitated to step into.

We dated for so long, we had a comfort zone of known routines. I felt secure in that comfort zone. I love him till this day. I love the way he feels, I love touching him, holding him, cuddling up. But Thorned, he does not feel the same way about me. I no longer hold on to the notion that I love him physically because it is too painful to be rejected all the time. All I have now is an emotional love for him, and that too, I must leave, else I go crazy, clinging on to someone who isn't coming back.

[color:"blue"] Here's where I have to tell myself the reasons for NOT getting back into the marriage [/color]

[color:"purple"] - He thought the affairs were okay, as long as I didn't find out. [/color]
When I found out, he denied them. When I had evidences that he could not run away from, he tried to have me accept his affairs... he said, when you work with someone all the time, you get close to that person and you develop a relationship. I could have relationships, but not leave you, couldn't I?

Well, bullshots. I've work on a lot of projects with real charmers. I could easily fall in love, oh with that tall charming, good looking fella who made me laugh everyday and call me munchikins... WELL, I DID NOT. I STOPPED MYSELF AND RAN THE OTHER WAY. I expect that of you too.

Thing is, he enjoyed those affairs. He couldn't find anything bad to say about them, except that they hurt me. For some reason, I have this inky feeling that because he thought they were alright, he'd do it again. If we stayed together, there will come a time again when things aren't going so well between us, I ain't sticking around to be hurt again a second time when he choose to run into someone else's arms.

[color:"purple"] - Those lies, they were just too much. [/color]
Besides the bills, his part was also to pay our apartment's maintainence fee, which came to $150 a month. He did not pay them, took all the lawyer's letters that came in the mailbox and chucked them. One day, the management put up a notice, and our apartment was noted to have accrued over $8,000 in maintenance fees. I confronted him about it, and he said he'd paid, and he'd check with the management office. And he told me, he has settled the bill. A few months after, the notice came again and of course, a few months after, the amount just accrued. Of course I confronted him... but you know what, he said the management office's account system is screwed, he paid, and the last payment was on this and this a date and the accounts clerk told him that they'll fix the system and for us to ignore the notice. Oh gosh, he BLAMED someone for something they did not do, to get himself off the hook. Man, that is despicable (sp?).

- Those weekends away, those late nights at the office, him not being intimate with me... I asked if he was having an affair. He said no, he will never jeopardise his position in the company, he worked so hard to get there, his top management are all family men (and women), an affair would be a stupid move to ruin his reputation.

I can't accept how he could say that to me while bonking those office sluts. I was convinced, because I thought he really VALUED his career. Well, I was stupid.

- He told me he was paying for his mother's car. He didn't have to. I didn't ask. Reality-- he didn't fork out a single cent. She got a bank loan to pay for her car. He said he made that up so he'd look good. And that was also one way to explain where his money has gone. But like I said, I didn't ask, so what the heck was that lie for?

- When his first OW left him, he was devastated. He spent two months or more, creating these fictional characters with email addresses and he wrote to himself and replied to himself as these fictional characters. He had an affair with them.

Ahem. Fogland gone bonkers? His reason: he thought 1st OW hacked into his email and was reading his mails. So he created these women to sleep with him to make her jealous. In these mails, he also told these women how much he loved 1st OW and that he bought a house for her (and him to share). I can't comprehend why anyone would waste two to three months to do this everyday, write as fictional characters and reply to them. I mean... you must be NUTS. Yea. Nuts about OW. Bah!

*I know these are fake women coz they had MY FRIENDS and they READ MY BOOKS. How sad. How utterly sad. H had no friends, so he had to use mine. He doesn't read books, so he quoted the titles that I read.

[color:"purple"] - Poor money management [/color]
He maxed out his cards so bad. Enuf said. He also gave me a supplementary card I could not use coz he max his out first.

He defaulted on his fancy beemer's loan. Man, he just ignored the calls and lawyer's letters. Man, I will not forget the day the car repossesor came and got his car.

-- He is on the top level management, earned twice as much as I and lived from paycheck to paycheck. This man could not save a single cent. I saw his account balance once, $2 at the end of the month. That is sad. He used to tell me he didn't have time to go to the ATM, could he have $50 for petrol, and yep, sure I gave him. Man, talk about putting me in a MOTHER role. Bah!

He used to borrow money from me when we were dating, but never returned what he borrowed. He would borrow from his friends, but those debts he repaid, just not mine. I try to overlook this fault... to my own peril. Thorned, you would've said I had no Boundaries. I didn't know what they were then. When he left the marriage, he was deep in debt. And as a spouse, I could be in trouble, legally.

That is all I want to dig up.
I wouldn't put all the above as 'my part in the breakdown of the relationship'. Those failures were from his own character flaw. Habits. Childhood. Whatever you choose to call it. They will always be part of him UNLESS he makes a concious and continuous effort to change.

Change is difficult. I know. I look at myself and the way I criticize and I wonder how the heck am I conciously going to change this part of me that seems to always jump out at most inappropriate times. Well, I have to, [color:"purple"] because I want to be a better person. [/color]

I want to be a better person, first for God, because He loved me and I know He has forgiven me for my own sins, then for myself, so I could have a better life.

Look at me today, I have a wonderful mom and dad, I couldn't ask for a better brother, and my sis-in-law is great, they live with my parents and they get along fine, who could ask for more in today's world where parents reject each other and children reject their parents? I have two nephews to play with... I don't have children of my own, so I find joy in them. I love my job and I have a wonderful boss. I enjoy the people around me at work, except for one or two idiots whom I don't even deal with everyday. I have a car, an apartment, bright sunny days, friends, MB, and I hey, I ain't got a weight problem and if I spend enough time on my hair, I'd look nice.. that sort of thing, you know. That sorta thing that makes me say I am glad I am alive.

I also figured this today.
[color:"blue"] I want to be happy and I will WILL it. [/color]
I mean, heck, I am tired of being miserable. The last two weeks-- all that crying, self pity, feeling sorry for the past... it's too burdensome.

[color:"blue"] I don't want to carry this baggage for too long. It's heavy. [/color] Someday I'll sort it out. Some day I'll learn to NOT CRITISIZE... some day I'll hold my tongue and tell myself CRITISIZING IS NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT PERSON FASTER, BETTER, CLEVERER etc.

If I love someone, I need to have that patience to coax (maybe not the right word?) to build that person, to give that person a little help in the right direction. Oh, I know this sounds corny, but I watch the Amazing Race and I see how couples support each other or belittle each other. What is the result? The couple that support each other still have love between them even if they got there last. The one who criticize his/her partner will have a rift between them even if they won. What do I want? I want to love and be loved in return. I ain't racing for no man. I am in my own race for God's kingdom. And I know to be in His kingdom, all I need is meself. A good meself.

Today, I figured, hey Ruffled, you know what? You need to make your life so darn good now, there's no need to look back and long for the past. Em, yes that's what I was doing in the last two weeks-- longing for H, longing for the past that never was. Longing for what could've been.

What can I do to have a better life? I don't mean a little better, I mean leaps and bounds ten times better.

1) I am afraid of falling into a financial rut, now that I have to take care of myself. I want to make some cash, short term, so that I have the financial cushion. Question: How to make cash?

2) On the same rein, having some money will mean a relatively good life, which mean hey, I am doing better now that I am not married to that don't-know-where-his-money went guy. I want my marriage to be once-upon-a-time... sounds painful to say it, but I need to be there in the future... I need somewhere to go, even if it's in my head... to be released from the painful present. And most importantly, I don't want to depend on another person to release me, or to make me happy or to fulfill some need. I want to do it by myself. I don't want anyone to own my happiness. I want to own it myself (bad english?).

Phew! What a long post.
Sorting is no easy task... I appreciate your earlier responses, Thorn. And DejaVu, I read your post on D, and I know how it is to feel rejected, uneeded, abandoned.. I don't wish this for any married couple. Too many people take divorce too lightly till they find themselves in it.

Ok I really have to go. Goodnight and hugs for being my friends.

Oh PS. I am not in north America. No Tylenol here. Is Tylenol PM for sleeping or headache first and sleeping second? There's no off-the-shelve sleeping aid here. If I want sleep I have to go to the clinic to get Xanax. I use homeopathy, but it expires very quickly and has a strict regimen to it.

PPS. DejaVu, would you give your H a second chance if HE asked for it? What if one day, like me, he is remorseful and came to realise how his own action has contributed to the breakdown of the marriage, would you let him come back for a second chance, to try make ammends with you? How far is far that the relationship is gone?