I have a thread on the planA/plan B section that describes my situation. I found out about 2 affairs my wife had after she told me she wanted to divorce. I feel like we have been making progress towards recovery however, the OM is apparently out of the picture and her attatchment to either of them was not too severe. But really the issues that led to the affairs are what we are working on. I feel I am close to convincing her to try and save the marriage using Dr. Harley's advice. However after the most recent letter I wrote her she raised as her concerns if we could ever have a fulfilling sex life and that she has not been attracted to me in a long time. I know that these are issues that we can work on and overcome, but I guess what I am looking for is what can I say to her that will help convince her that these issues are not so much of a concern as she thinks they might be. I feel that if I am allowed to and learn to meet her emotional needs that the attraction will return, and think that the lack of love in our sexual realtions are a big reason she felt it was lacking. I guess sexual fulfillment is one of her most important emotional needs, and I do not have any medical problems in that area, and guess meybe I should feel lucky and look forward to trying to meet that need. She clearly is more desiring of Sex than me. I am just looking for ideas of what to say to her to help convince her that these problems are fixable.

I've heard those two complaints from my wife too. After talking to Steve Harley, his impression is that those two things are probably barometers of the other emotional needs you are not meeting. Most women need to have an emotional connection with the man they're making love to.

I'm a good looking guy I've been told and no medical problems either. If I'm correct, the most sensual way to entice your wife is through her mind. Take some time to work on yourself.

Regarding the affairs, it may be they only look like they're over. Pay close attention to that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

OK, blaze, you should not have to be "guessing" on this. Get the emotional questionaire out, and both of you take it. Find out EXACTLY what her TOP 5 are. As Dr. Harley says in his book "His Needs, Her Needs," you can meet her top 4 EN's like a prince, but if that 5th one is lacking, your M is vulnerable.

Find out for sure what the top 5 are, and meet them regularly. For the SF EN, Dr. Harley says that you must meet that need exclusively for her in the M, it is the only ethical choice. It's not like Conversation that can be met by one of her girlfriends AND you. Does that make sense?

And it is important for her to understand what YOUR top 5 EN's are, as well, because as she meets your EN's, you will be more attracted to her and want to meet HER top EN's as well. It is a wonderful circle, that can get stronger and stronger over time. You are right, the more EN's you fulfill, and better, the more attractive you will become to her. In fact, Dr. Harley says you will become irresistable!

Happy Questionaire Taking to you, blaze!

Spidey

Thanks for the responses.

My wife is still in a state of withdrawl and has been unwilling to fill out the EN questionaire or see a counsellor. Things have been getting better however and I am starting to feel that I am close to getting her to agree to do these things. I have been trying to appeal to her mind and telling her that her emotions may have her feeling like it's hopeless but that we can not let our emotions control our lives. We have 2 beautiful children and generally are compatible and get along well and am pretty sure that we can survive this and be happier than ever if I can get her on board with applying Dr. Harley's concepts to our relationship.

If she does agree then I will need to find a MC who agrees with Dr. Harleys prinicples.....

Blaze, during our separation, my FWH was unwilling to do ANYTHING (including staying in the home!). I did the EN questionaire for him, and made my best guesses as to his Top 5. Perhaps if you do this, then go to your FWW and tell her that you want to meet all her top needs, and you understand she isn't interested in filling out the questionaire, but that you did with your "best guesses" ~ would she mind hearing what you think her needs are? Tell her you cannot attempt to meet needs if you don't know what they are.

If nothing else, this could open a dialogue about how she is feeling, what she feels she wasn't getting from you. My H didn't want to do the questionaire, but when he did, he really enjoyed it. He thought Dr. Harley's descriptions were right on, and it helped him understand himself better, as well. He didn't even realize how important Admiration was to him! And he only had 3 of the 5 that I had guessed on. And he didn't know what mine were, either.

And just a note of caution ~ don't try to educate your FWW, or come across as if there is something wrong with her. FWS's find this extremely offensive and frustrating. You BOTH need some relationship learning, and there is something wrong with the M-unit, the part of both of you that come together to form the union. Does that make sense?

Lead by example. Learn stuff, and ask her questions about it, in an information-sharing way, not an educating way. And be patient ~ it is a marathon, not a race ~ and it is a journey, not a destination. So basically, you are marathoning forever . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

This is going to sound simple, but have you talked to her about specifics? What does she want? Get specific--saying that "you don't appeal to her" is avoiding the issue. What specifically does she want? Does she want to have sex more often? Is she not having an orgasm? Does she want more foreplay? Does she want to have someone who is thinner or with more hair or with less hair?

Women sometimes are a little odd about sex--they sometimes are uncomfortable with saying "do this". So, you might want to get a book on sexuality and share it with her. Go through it together and have her tell you what she might like.

I get "Men's Health". We go through the book and show my W the male models and ask her "Hot or not?" This has helped me understand what she finds attractive.

In this day with modern technology (e.g., DVDs, vibrators and Viagara), it is pretty hard to imagine a situation where her sexual needs couldn't be met as long as you are willing.

"Harley's method" is not unique or unusual. (What is unusual is his organization and supporting materials.) Most good marriage counselors use something like it.

Spend time finding a good counselor rather than worrying about whether the counselor follow Harley's methodology.

That's interesting, because we did see an MC about a year ago and she did not give us any of these types of concepts or rules to follow. Me and my wife both agreed we did not like her and that things were not getting better and in fact I think she made them worse. It seemed like she was following the failures that Dr. Harley ran in to when he first started trying to save marriages and I am concerned that if I get to see an MC again that it will be much the same. How can I go about finding a good MC? I really feel like if my wife commits to trying to work things out that being in love will be the only thing can save our marriage and that if she does commit and we fail that this is the last chance we have. I am sort of scared, because I know things can work out and there is so much at stake, if we fail or don't find a good MC that understands Dr. Harley's methods that will ruin our efforts and ultimately and chance our marriage has.

Oh yeah, does anyone know if the MARITAL RECOVERY AGREEMENT from appendix D of surviving an affair is available online? It is so much easier than trying to make a copy out of the book.....

oh yeah, I am in the San Diego area....can anyone recommend a great MC in the area I would appreciate it....

Let me elaborate:

There are two general issues to recovery: (1) dealing with the OP/WS/BS triangle and (2) the problems in the M leading to the A.

Harley's use of the addiction paradigm for the OP/WS/BS triangle is revolutionary. You aren't going to find that in many places. (I wish I had ran into it 10+ years ago. It is really insightful.)

As to (2), "fulfilling emotional needs" has been around for a long time. Something similar to that was used 10 years ago. The materials on this board about improving marital relationships, communication, etc., are well organized and complete, but they aren't revolutionary.

Of course, the issues are not neatly separated and there is plenty of spillover between (1) and (2).

But, it sounds like you and she are moving past (1) and moving into (2). So, that is why I'm suggesting that you should focus on finding a good, competent MC to help you improve your M.

You will probably spend a lot of time talking about (1) anyway, but more as a point of reference.

I'm afraid I don't get this Jimmy. My husband may not be hot...he may not even be what other women consider attractive. But, to me ~ he's the best!

The same with me. There is a song I pointed out to him called "Thru the Eyes Of Grace". It says: "There is still a young girl in this old girls face."

I try to keep myself as attractive as possible, but I have earned these wrinkles...and it probably isn't going to get any better the older we get.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

There comes a point in time where the love and the committment carry us through regardless of our looks. The important things are the time we spend together and also our communication ~ both of which can increase our intimacy.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Susan: I agree with you. Trust me, I don't look anything like the models they use in Men's Health.

It a way to start a conversation about sex. Communication and understanding are so important, especially when it comes to sex. Anything that helps start a conversation would be good.

It does help a man understand "where his W is coming from."
Suppose she says, "That is stupid. Looks don't have anything to do with it." Then, that tells them something, and leads into one conversation.

If she says, "Look at those arms..." then that leads into another conversation. It lets you talk to each other about sex in a less threatening way.

I found out how little looks mean to W, although to say looks mean nothing to her is not accurate. E.g., I found out she likes muscles, so I started lifting weights a little. (She didn't ask me to. I just did it because she might like me with bigger muscles. She did... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

The first MC my H and I saw was just like this, too! If you lived over here in Idaho, I'd have thought perhaps we were seeing the same woman! And, what is really scary, is she is supposed to be the "best" over here ~ she's the one that signs all the licenses in the state, the one other counselors call when they get stuck.

*sigh* Interestingly, my H's IC became our MC, after my H walked out on the 3rd session with our first MC. I thought the whole thing was over when he walked out, thought he was going to file for D. Instead, I was invited to his next appointment, and then he became our MC.

Using my 20/20 hindsight, there were 2 different answers from the 2 MC's to my one question ~ "Have you ever helped save a M when one partner thought they were in love with someone else (outside the M)?" The first MC didn't give me an answer, she started telling me about infidelity statistics, and how hard it is to pin down an answer to that question, etc.

Before going to H's IC session, I called his IC and asked him the same question ~ he said, "Yes, I have."

Perhaps you could think up some questions like that, maybe others about NC, to get a "read" for how similar/dissimilar your beliefs are from the MC's. Most important, though, try not to have the fatalistic attitude about only having one more chance to find "the right one." I know things seem touch-and-go to you right now, but your FWW is putting out effort, you are putting out effort, and I think even if you have to go to 2 more before you find one that work for both of you, you will be just fine. The important thing is to find one that BOTH of you trust, respect, and thinks they know what they are talking about. Our MC didn't agree with 100% everything of Dr. Harley's, but it all ended up fitting together well. Learning to communicate better is the best gift you can give each other, and your M. It is the key.

Spidey