I have been posting a few things about my marriage here and have gotten some good advice and support. Briefly, my lack of attention and affection had completely destroyed wy wifes love for me and while she stayed because she felt she had nowhere else to go until she finishes school in about 9 months. About 3-4 weeks ago she cam to me and said she wanted a divorce and I susbsequently discovered 2 affairs she had from her friends telling me. The affairs appear to be over but we still have a long road to recovery which she is only slightly open to.

I have been doing my best to avoid Love Busters and to spend time with her and give her undivided attention. She is pleasant to be around still, and she seems to be suffering some depression and is in withdrawl still( I am going to seek meds to help deal with this). She is open to things getting better, but her concern is that she is not ready to go from being friends (as we are know) to jumping head first in to being husband and wife. I have told her that is understandable and that is not how it works anyway. I have introduced her to the rule of protection, to avoid being the source of each others unhappiness as the first small step toward recovery and while she has not commited to trying to follow it she has not rejected the idea.

The main issue that we are trying to overcome to follow this rule is that she says that she needs friends, and thinks having opposite sex friends is OK, even if the guy is interested in her, because she is not willing to return anything but friendship. While the OM from the affairs are out of the picture there is a male friend, an ex-co worker that she has mentioned possibly hanging out with even though they never have in the past and have no current plans to. I am trying to use the policy of joint agreement to resolve this issue and have explained that it does not matter if an opposite sex friendship is innocent or not, that if they spend time together that he will be depositing love units in her bank account that will make it near impossible for me to make any deposits. I have explained, that if she goes out and has a good time with this guy, that the time we spend together will be awful by comparrison because she is practically repulsed by me in many ways and that this will make it alomost impossible for our marriage to recover. She had said that I need to make a choice whether to trust her or hold her mistakes of the past against her, but she has not yet really responded to my reasoning of why I don't think it is a good idea.

I think I am doing a good job following Dr. Harley's negotiating strategy on this issue, I can only hope that she doesn't get the attitude of screw you I am going to do whatever I want to do. I guess this is an important step, if I can get her to see the importance of not having opposite sex friends and to follow the rule of protection. I will continue to try and update this thread as things progress, thanks in advance for all your support.

Good luck to you. I would focus hard on fillin her ENs to the top and less on negotiating and so on. In other word, do your plan A with all of your strength and do the POJA when you are in recovery, sorry. IMVHO.

-rh-

Well, I did get her to agree to fill out the EN questionairre. She said she would fill it out as long as it is multiple choice and not oen ended, and I know it is a little of both so hopefully she still actually does it.

I am planning on concentrating on trying to meet her EN's however, I am pretty sure some of her most important ones are likely affection and sexual fulfillment which are currently impossible for me to meet because she won't even let me touch her right now.

I think that the learning the rule of protection coupled with me effort to meet her EN that she will let me is where to start. I am trying to shedule as much time for undivided attention as I can also, working on finding more baby sitter resources and looking for mutually enjoyable activities. I know she may not be willing to completely commit to the rule of protection or the policy of joint agreement at this time, but from my side I am trying to follow these while avoiding LB's.

She is willing to spend time with me, dating/courtship is what she called it. But she also let me know it is sometimes awkward and uncomfortable for her because she is not used to "dating" someone who she has no desire to kiss or be affectionate with. She is not ready to see MC, the last one we went to made things much worse, and she is not ready to jump head first in trying to be husband and wife.

I felt that this was a pretty good start, should I be concerned about lack of affection to the point of near repulsion? I sort of thought it was normal and that spending time together and trying to deposit love units will slowly change that. Does it sound like recovery is possible in my situation?

Affection doesn't mean touching, you could show affection w/ words and actions.

Does one could fall in-love ?. Yes, in-love could be created ... however if there is 3rd party it is almost impossible, you are competing w/ OP. Not too worry about resisting since we are human. We won't reject our ENs being met. It is just slower in fillin the LB$.

BTW. You don't need to wait for her to finish ENQ, you should print one and fill it up as if she does it for you. If she finishs hers then you could compare the answer and if she doesn't ... you could guess her top 5. Don't worry about the order since you have to do all 5.

-rh-

Well, I have been trying to show her affection in other ways besides touching, so I hear what your saying. She is still in withdrawl however so I feel much of it is not doing any good right now, but I will keep on keeping on in that department.

I have not even filled out my own EN questionaire yet, but trying to guess hers sounds like an idea I might try, it will create an oppurtunity to discuss it.

I am almost postive the OM is out of the picture. This is mainly because her friend told me something to the effect that she doesn't talk about him the same way anymore and after I confronted him it seems to me that he was basicaly in it just to take advantage of her. She would go to the bar and that was the only time he really had to deal with her, her friend said something to the effect that she realized he was also pursuing other girls and stuff too and that largely this realization, that he was not exclusively in to her, sort of burst her bubble about the whole thing. I understand the importance of him being out of the picture and feel very fortunate he is, but I think in a lot of ways if she begins hanging out with male friends, even in innocent plutonic ways, that this will have much the same effect of making recovery and my ability to deposit love units near impossible. I am paying attention and keeping a close eye to make sure OM is completely out of the picure, but so far I am pretty convinced he is.

Focus on your Plan A and don't too hung up on the POJA and negotiation right now. If she recognizes and acknowledges your changes and she still is not willing to work on R ... you have no choice to force her to be a buyer by means of separation and stopping your effort. However you have 6 months to work on this plan A.

Good Luck,
-rh-

Well, I am starting to feel more encouraged. We both filled out our EN questionaire's and it I think we both kind of saw where we failed to meet each others EN. I think this made her think about how even though I have been saying for most of the time that it was mainly my failures to meet her EN that were the problem, that her failures to meet mine were also a problem too and that is part of why I failed too. Also she seems to really be being honest with me which is my #2 EN and when she is I can feel my love for her getting stronger. Also, a few things she filled out on her EN questionaire she ranked really low as before, and then ranked it higher as of now, so she has definitely noticed positive changes in me.

She also seems to be more comfortable and willing to spend alone time with me, the first time she was uncomfortable because she felt like I was trying to date her and was having expectations, but now she seems to be more comfortable.

I am not sure if I should talk to her about whether or not her feelings are changing, like if the feeling of near repulsion toward me is gone yet, or should I just give her time to sort out her on feelings with out constantly questioning her about them?

I did write her a letter that brought up a lot of my sexual feelings for her and memories of when our sex life was good and stuff, I was worried she would be offended, but she said she wasn't it and I think she may have actually liked it as she took something innocent I said later in the day as if I was thinking sexually.

I am pretty amazed at how Dr. Harley's advice seems to be working so far. I have talked to her about some of the ideas, because she is supposedly in love with the idea of being in love, and asked her if it seemed like it made sense. The only thing she said, which really just avoided the question, was that it sounded very psycho analytical by constantly defingin terms such as EN and stuff.

But we have talked, and I told her that I had adjusted and lowered my expectations when she did not meet some of my EN, and then we both agreed that we don't want to have a marriage where we have to lower our expectations. I just hope she realizes what I have to offer and that we can be one of those rare ultra happy married couples who people see and are like damn, those 2 are really in love.

Blaze, I am so happy you did the EN questionaire! My H and I were really glad we took the time to fill it out. It really gives you a place to start, a realization of what is really important to the other person, and yourself.

I like what you wrote above, because when H and I did our EN questionaire, I realized that my top EN's weren't being filled regularly. It sure is easier to fill your partner's EN's, when you feel yours are also being met, isn't it? Kind-of makes your "gas" tank feel full, so you can keep going and going filling EN's yourself.

I kind-of got hung up on all the psycho analytical stuff for a while, too. But really, you have to have a way of defining these things, right? You have to be able to idenitfy what you are trying to talk about. I guess it comes down more to just logistics.

I sure wish I would have read about EN's 14 years ago when H and I married. Neither of us had a CLUE about any of this stuff.

To answer your question from a few posts back, yes, there is hope in your sitch. The fact that your FWW is still at home, and even open to doing some of this stuff, is really cool.

If I were you, I wouldn't ask her if you are still repulsive to her or not. Just assume you are. But keep doing your Plan A. Dr. Harley says in HNHN, if you consistently meet her top 5 EN's, you will become irresistable to her. And that makes a lot of sense to me! Give it some time to work. It took years for your M to deteriorate, give it some time to start budding again, OK? Everything worthwhile in life takes time and work.


I LOVE that you wrote this. At the beginning of my recovery, I wanted this, as well. And guess what? People stop my H and I now and say that to us. And not on date night! Like, walking through Lowe's, at the local diner, our close friends. And if my H and I can do it, you can too. Keep your goal in you mind at all times, and even if you are feeling discouraged and down (because you will, they don't call it a rollercoaster for nothing!), keep doing things toward meeting that goal. One day at a time. And keep coming here and posting. You are doing great.

Spidey

Thanks for the encouagement Spidey.

Wow, what a great weekend we had. I am pretty sure my wife is coming out of the state of withdrawl and in to the state of conflict.....We had a really good time together this weekend and it ended last night with me giving her a foot rub, washing her face and giving her a back rub in the bath tub, and she told me that these are the types of things she finds romantic and she was smiling a lot and seemed very happy. She also moved off the couch and back in to the bed. I think Plan A is going really well, but I am aware there still may be a few drops on this roller coaster still.

I guess I just have to coninue the things I have been doing, I told her that I want to love her the way she wants to be loved but that I will need her help to tell me when I am doing things right. The EN questionairre really helped me know where to focus. I love seeing her happy like last night, and I love her personality when she is happy and having a good time, it makes me want to continue doing the things I ahve been doing even more.

This is a pretty amazing turnaround, just a few weeks ago everyone was telling me that they felt she had already made up her mind and moved on and that I was probably just going to have to let her go. This website and Dr. Harley's books gave me hope and direction, I was trying to throw her out of the house before I found them. Also the posters her have also helped me understand better what I need to do, at one point I was practically demanding that she let me show her some affection (pysical) because I wanted to meet her EN for it before I was straightened out by this community.

Thanks for all the kind words and encouragement, and I will try to keep this updated hopefully with new updates of the continued recovery of my marriage and it's transformation in to something new and beautiful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well I finally had a bit of a downer the other day after about 2 weeks of what I felt were very positive....I guess I shouldn't have been expecting that it would be all positive from now on.

Basically we talked and she was still kind of negative as far as saying she is still numb even though she appreciates everything I have done and acknowledges that our home life has been much better. She is still not feeling attracted to me... but She later admitted that yes she does still feel up and down abot the whole thing and I feel I may have contributed by that by slacking off on scheduling our 15 hours for undivided attention, we went a whole week (sunday to Sunday) with out getting out to spend anytime alone together. She still is not willing to put effort in to trying to follow any of the advice toward marital recovery I have been telling her about and still says she needs time.

Things are still doing OK, I have accepted that it will take time and am still commited to doing all that I can on my side to try to lead her back to intimacy.

Actually I am encouraged to, I was telling her how words of affirmation were something that I really missed, how she used to talk about me very positively and now if I do something good the most I get is a "good job". She was kind of defensive when we talked about this as I brought up that she talked about the OM like this, baically gushing with praise (although she does not anymore, still completely convinced he is out of the picture). I also explained a little how love is a choice, and how I was choosing to love her and doing things that did not come natural to me because I knew they were important to her to make her feel loved and that the emotion will follow when we choose to create love through our actions and words...anyway the next day we were talking about something and she seemed to me be delibirately trying to be very encouraging and positive about toward me in what we were talking about! I think maybe I can try to communicate a few other things that I would like from her to feel loved and see if I see her trying to do those things to. It will only make it easier for me to continue my efforts to meet her EN. I am encouraged by seeing this effort from her even though she still professes not to be ready or willing o put forth this effort. Perhaps she simply does not want to sit down and read any of these books or articles on this website but may be willing to do some of these things anyway if I communicate them to her correctly.

Anyway, I am still encouraged, and am pretty much over feeling down about things not being as good as I had hoped. I still feel we are headed in the right direction and this will work out.

Blaze, it sounds good to me. She is a LOT more willing, at this stage after her A, than most FWS's, to do some work. Trust me.

And, you are doing what I would counsel you to do, which is to lead by example. One of the first things I learned in parenting class (weird how my H and I took parenting classes, but not any M classes, until we were in crisis) is that if something is alive, you cannot control it ~ only yourself. And that is so true. You can influence, but you cannot control.

By doing everything that you are doing, learning about EN's and trying to fill them ~ also learning about your own needs and communicating those to her ~ you are doing the most you can do to rebuild your M into something both of you feel good about.

As for her feelings, well, they will come and go. IMO, when people actually go from thinking about an A, to having an A, they are running on feelings ONLY. And it is hard to get out of that mindset, to turn it all around, and start focusing on MORE than just the fleeting feelings that don't really mean that much.

As you say, love is a choice. If she chooses to rebuild with you, and is willing to roll up her sleeves and work hard (which it sounds like she is getting there, to me), I believe she will begin feeling the feelings of love and attraction for you again.

During our separation, my FWH told me that he was not attracted to me anymore, and that that was just ANOTHER reason why he should not come home and try to work on it. But once his defenses came down, and he "defogged," he became attracted to me as he once was. What she is experiencing now is pretty normal, IMO.

Keep posting. This is a great place to bounce stuff off people who have been there/done that, to make sure you are still on the path you want to be on. Sometimes that path can seem very clear, and sometimes it can disappear for a while, and you can get disoriented and confused. Stay grounded here.

Hang in there! It is a rollercoaster, for serious real it is.

Spidey

Things still are going well, we actually had some kissing and stuff for the first time the a couple of days ago. She got emotional after and cried a little and I just held her and told her it was OK. Later she said it felt kind of strange to kiss me, she says she is not really sure and that it just happened. When we talk about stuff like that she alwasys seems to think I am trying to get her to say something, she always says, I don't know what you want me to say, and seems to get a little frustrated and I just try to tell her that I don't want her to say anything I just want to hear how she feels and if she is not sure then that is ok too.

Overall she does not turn away my affection except rarely, I am kind of confused about how much to be affectionate, I don't want to over do it, but since she does not seem to pull away from it and it is one of her most importanat emotional needs I guess I should try to be a little more aggressive. I have always been slow, or kind of shy about these things, we even still joke about how long it took me to work up to our very first kiss and she did sort of hint that I was dilly dallying a little bit the other day before I kissed her. Geez, writing this it almost seems like she is dropping hints and that I should be a little more aggressive with my affection......

My feelings for her are very strong, but I do worry still about what Dr. Harley warns about, that she will be the first to return to the state of intimacy. I guess I am prepared for this, and it seems headed that way, but I worry because I know eventually she is going to have put effort in to becoming an expert a meeting my most important emotional needs also and I worry a little bit about how willing she is going to be to do that. Basically,I know she enjoys being loved but I worry if she is going to enjoy loving me too, and I know we need both in order to have the marriage we both want.

You sound like you have a pretty firm grasp of what is going on. Keep listening to her, watching her, getting clues from her. Hopefully, one day soon she will feel confident just telling you exactly what she wants/needs, so you don't have to do so much guessing.


According to HNHN, Dr. Harley says that by meeting her needs, and filling her LB$, that you will become IRRESISTABLE to her. What that means to me is that she will DESIRE to meet your needs, to do things that will make you happy.

And Dr. Harley sure is right about a whole lot of other stuff, isn't he? Have faith in the process, in the principles. You can only control you, so keep it up on your end ~ lead by example.

Keep us updated! Keep posting. Especially if you are particularly confused about something, or would like others' input. Situations that we are emotionally involved in, emotionally invested in, are sometimes hard to understand so close. Use the boards to your advantage. I think you are doing GREAT. Recovery is a journey, not a destination. And sometimes, you can't tell you are moving forward until you've gone a good ways.

Spidey

I am kind of worried now. We have not kissed at all since that one time and we had some more conversation about it. Before she had only said that it felt weird to kiss me, but she has added that she did not feel anything and that it kind of scared her. She said that kissing is very important, I hear all the time that girls often thing that a kiss will tell them what they need to know about a guy. I suggested that maybe it was because it does not have the excitement of a new romance and she said that she would prolly have felt more even kissing an old boy friend. She also seems to be enforcing more limits now as far as sexual touching and and anything that might lead to oral kissing. But outside of that hugging, cuddling, all other touching, cheek kissing and stuff she seems to be ok with.

Of course her telling me this hurt me but I was able to avoid being judgemental or angry at all and simply thanked her for being honest with me about she was feeling and assured her that we can get that feeling back eventually and that she can't control how she feels, you can not make yourself feel something. I am concerned though that she needs to feel something before she can commit to trying to rebuild the marriage together. I have been doing plan A very well and constantly showing her I lover her and doing my best to meet her Emotional Needs.....but I am worried that she will never fall in love with me until she chooses to be commited and puts in the effort. I have been trying to communicate this to her and have told her that we make the choice to love first and then the feelings will follow. I guess this is difficult because that is not the way it works when your single or dating, the feelings come first. But I told her about how I felt when I found out about the affair afte she told me she wanted a divorce, how I was angry and my instincts were trying to make me hate her and throw her out and make her suffer, but that I chose to lover her instead, found this advice, and then when she stopped trying to run away, stopped seeing the OM, and was willing to stay and be open to me on some level that I began to have strong feelings of love for her. So I am not sure if it is possible for her to fall in love with me with out choosing to and being commited, I know when we first got together we messed around some and she was reluctant to be my girlfriend but that in her words I wore her down with my attention and interest basically and she ended up falling in love with me. Can it happen like that again though? I am not sure.

And just to vent, I have not told her, but it makes me angry and hurt to think that she can sit there and not feel anything for me and push away any sexual advances I might make and then I think about the OM and her past relationships I know of and think what jerks for the most part all those guys were and I get angry, how can she feel things for those guys and was willing to have sex with them and not me, we have 2 kids, been together for 6 years and I have been a good provided and father and she can clearly see that I love her very much and still she pushes me away. It drives me nuts to think about it. I have not said any of this to her, however.

Blaze,
You know Plan A isn’t intended to be implemented like a structured course in behavior management. Plan A is a sort of a guide…a path or direction to travel…and your goal is to not only to end up in the same place with your WW but to learn how to travel down that path together, working together, to get there. It’s the working together that makes the trip so wonderful. Where you’re going is to a place where you and your wife end up being a team but the fun in being married is learning teamwork.

And so if you look at all the elements of Plan A understanding that this is the beginning of a long trip…a life long trip…and stop obsessing over those things that aren’t going well or conversely over those things that are going to well, then the trip becomes what it’s intended to be. A life time of adventure and love…and yes…pain, sorrow and disappointments as well. But a great trip never the less!

Today she loves you and tomorrow she won’t. So ok, but what does this really mean? Only that she’s a very human person with doubts and fears and things in her life that affect her daily behavior. You my friend can’t live your life based on what today’s little trial or tribulation is all about, or worse yet, always thinking that *it’s* about you. You need to come to the realization right now that you are not the center of the universe; thus not the cause or the solution to everything that happens in her world.

The important thing about Plan A is to be consistent. To make up your mind about who you are and how you can behave in a way that compliments your partners ENs while not compromising your own. Plan A is about learning to behave with civility and patience and understanding and may be most important of all, compromise. It’s not about perfection or turning away from offensive or mean spirited behavior that is directed at you. It’s about learning to be respectful of your dignity as well as her dignity.

Just a last thought. If your WW thinks that her having had two affairs was justified by any behavior that you exhibited during the marriage, then she is wrong. Dead wrong! And for you to give her a pass on what she has done?! Worse yet! To appease her sense of entitlement in this area is worse then wrong…it’s stupid! In so doing you are destroying the positive relationship elements that Plan A uses as building blocks. Worse yet, it sets the stage for a false recovery and opens the door to the reenactment of similar behavior down the road. Please keep this in mind. To get her back by perpetuating this kind of fallacy will get you nothing of any lasting value.
Coach.

I am doing my best, I guess maybe I should stop caling it plan A because the affairs are over and done. I understand this is not just a short term behavior program or fix, but a lifetime commitment...maybe I do obsess a little bit but I just try to post in this thread when I am sort of confused or down. But definitely conistency is the key, even when I do start maybe having an angry outburst, disrespectful judgement, or a selfish demand I usually catch myself and apologize and try to explain how I was feeling that led to it....and while I am not the center of the universe I realize that I am the only thing in the unvierse that I can control...and actually I got caught off guard by her last night, she turned and gave me an unexpected kiss. Also she told me in a very sincere way that even though she hasnt really told me, all the little things I have been doing do mean a lot to her. I told her that I only do them because I love her and she said she knew. So, I guess I am not so worried anymore as I expressed in my last post. You say she loves me one day and not the next, but what I was worried after she talked about how she felt when we kissed was that she never does love me somedays at all.

I am not sure where your going with what your saying about the affair. What do you mean by "give her a pass on what she has done"? I acknowledge and understand how the state of the relationship led to an affair, and I am working to change the state of the relationship and to fall in love again. She does not feel that she was entitled to have an affair, and I don't think that either, I understand that how she felt led to it but not that I think it was OK and have told her that, there in no excuse or justifiacation for it. She does not like to talk about it but is remorseful and not defensive regarding it. We have talked much about it already and don't really talk about it anymore,Are you suggesting that we dwell on it?

No,just don't avoid discussing it wwhen appropriate or let it be swept under the rug. You sound much better in this post by the way. Glad to hear it.
Coach

Sure, I have made it known to her that I do want to discuss it more. Actually she has not actually even verbally admitted it directly to me, though she does not deny it. I have told her that it sometimes creeps in to my head, thinking about it, and that if we did disuss it and she told me exactly what happened that I would be more able to forget about it instead of wondering. I always think of the scene in the movie "Closer" between Clive Owen and Julia Roberts when she tells him about her affair, but I don't want that, where he is angry and asing her to compare him to OM, but I do want to know and I want her to tell me.

I have been going with the advice that continuing to force the issue and bringing it up will only withdraw love units and not accomplish much else. She has apologized(She has admitted to kissing OM but not everything else even though we both know I know), said she is not proud of it, knows it was wrong, and has talked about her feelings that led to it ( in fact she was stopping it herself before I knew about it, but she was trying to be "just friends" with the guy. I was finally able to convince her that was not going to work and Now she has no contact at all.)I think maybe somewhere along our recovery it will be discussed again.

Well things seem to be continuing as normal, but I am getting frustrated still as it still seems that I am doing all this plan A type stuff, and it worked, but I realize that I am only half of the marriage. I continue to try to bring up that we need to work on the relationship and it alwyays seems that "this is not a good time to talk about this" or "I don't want to talk about this right now". We have had bad experience with Marriage Counselors in the past, and I vascilate on the issue of wether going to one will help us, I feel it will be difficult to find a good one (I am in the San Diego area if anyone could recommend a good one). I sometimes think that just getting her to go through Dr. Haleys books and website with me and putting the effort to put in to practice in our marriage what he suggests may be enough even with out counselling, at least as a first step and then possibly seeking counselling if we feel we still need more help. But outside of that I am more concerned about her willingness to meet my EN's. My plan A worked like a charm getting her to cut off contact with OM and getting her to lower her emotional barriers toward me, but I am not sure how long I can continue to be this without haveing that commitment from her, with out seeing it going both ways a bit more, with out her putting effort in to trying to meet my EN's as well, for her to show that she loves me and for her to try to make me happy. I guess all I can do is continue to consistently try to communicate this to her with out nagging or demanding, any other advice or suggestions?

Update: Everything has worked out. We plan to renew our vows. We are having a third child. I just wanted to thank everyone here, this website and you people here really made the difference.

God Bless you all and Merry Christmas!