I am currently going thru the NC phase of this horrible nightmare...I think...at least it looks that way! Of course this is about the 4th attempt. On a positive note, it is only the 2nd attempt that WH seems to be MORE in agreement that he needs and wants to stop his nightmare! This time we are almost at 2 weeks. Last time he lasted almost 3 weeks and called OW. I found out, confronted, again re-stated my boundary and requirements of staying in our home were: honesty and NC. I also printed out and read to him some of the thread on the withdrawal phase and what he and I could do to manage it. This was first time WH acknowledged he was having some of the "same" withdrawal symptoms as stated in MB. He said he felt like he was having a panic attack and had to talk to her!
WH stated he could not even concentrate at work. He agreed this last time that he would go NC again and would be totally honest with me about OW's contact. WH blocked OW's email the last try, but stated he unblocked them! WH told me, for the first time, that she emailed him and forwarded email to our home computer for me to see last week! WH also told me this saturday that he came out of the store and thought he saw OW's car (she lives out of state) and stated he had a panic attack!
My question is this: How do I, as the BS who is willing to have these withdrawal discussions (which are very few unless I ask how he is feeling? Because he does not offer)and deal with such responses as "I want to call her right now!" as is recommended in the MB principals to help my WH feel safe and want to return to the M gain his respect?? Seems to me that my kindness, no LB's, and continued "understanding" as WH stated, makes me vulnerable to his cake eating??

Sabot-

The bottom line is this. When he does fail in his NC, let him know how much it hurts you. Talk to him about it, don't yell, scream, etc...but also make sure that he DOES know how it makes you feel when he does 'screw up'.

Let him know that it IS unacceptable behavior. If he wants to stay with you, he HAS to end it. If he doesn't feel strong enough, he needs to come to YOU for help, NOT HER.

And...he needs to help you come up with HOW you'll know that he's keeping his word. My wife truly didn't end her contact with her OM until she realized that I was going to see every single email and IM...and she didn't want me to be hurt by that, even if the emails they exchanged were 'harmless'. So, you both need to come up with a PLAN to end the contact. How to make sure that it doesn't re-occur...and how you'll monitor and know that it won't. And finally...consequences if it happens again. If he's not going to face any consequences, he's got no reason to change his behavior.

Just my thoughts.

Owl, I replied to you also on other thread.
It appears I am kicking a dead horse! I have asked for a plan, his plan! He even stated this time, "I know you need a plan".
If I ask for his password, she will create another email acct.! He will not tell me! And so on it goes....

She will call him at work! He will not tell me! And so on it goes....

I have stated the consequences from him leaving our home to D if this affair continues! Have even given him options: Dobsen - set him free to go to her! He states (just last week) "I dont want to leave! Going to see her wont solve anything!"
OW even states in her emails that she "knows" he wants his marriage to work!
So all I know today is:
OW is a persistant psycho who has tormented me by mail and email and phone! WH knows and has allowed it!
WH "says and acts" like he loves me and wants his M.
WH is still deceiving me by omission about OW's contact.

Hi Sabot

Sorry you are going through that mess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Its not withdrawal if your WS is still in contact with OP. Any contact can top up the lovebank and reset the 'getting over' meter to zero.

Make it very clearly ( but respectfully) known that you have no intention of working on your mariage while there is contact of any kind. That is unless you can tolerate contact....which most BS can't and all shouldn;t.

When your WS hits withdrawal its a really hard time for them, and you will need to be strong to love your WS through it.

Do it without degrading yourself and you may get more respect from your WS when withdrawal subsides and they choose to work hard on your M again.

All blessings.

Oh, Sabot...

He's not cake-eating unless trying to be with the both of you. It seems to me that right now he is going through withdrawal and has decided to be with you. I'm praying with you that is the case.

However, evidently, he is not doing what is necessary to show you that he is serious about this yet. He may not be serious about it. When my FWH was finally finished with his A and ready to work on his M with me, he was clear about it. I heard him tell her that he loved me and wanted to be with me. I heard him tell her to go on with her life. He changed his cellphone number that very day. You see, what I mean.

I've heard/read the Harley state that the WS has to take EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS! Your WH or FWH does not seem serious about doing this. So I understand your continued anxiety and concerns. You also are getting POed at him. That concerns me that something is going wrong.

I agree with the person that recommends for you to sit down with him to address your concerns about his seriousness and to question him on how you can work on this together. I mean a SPECIFIC PLAN OF ATTACK! If he hedges on this, that tells you something. You guys definitely need to do another NC LETTER!

I think if you and your H cannot come up with a PLAN which includes another NC Letter, closeout all E-MAIL accounts that you do not have direct access to, change all cells, etc. or whatever then you do have a problem. We may need to talk further about PLAN B. Not yet.....

I would just talk in generalities about the need for complete openness. Don't tell him yet about accessing the E-Mail. That's part of YOUR PLAN!

More Later.....

I don't know your story but your heading caught my attention.

You have a great help and I want you to think about this ... BS sometime choose to be a doormat. It is fine as long as BS has a plan. e.g. If you want to react to this, what do you want to acomplish ?. If you want to let it go, what do you want to acomplish ?.

... have you done your plan A ? if you did, probably it is a good time to look at plan B.

JMHO -rh-

Thanks to all of you for the help!
I agree with each and everyone of you about a plan! I have asked for a plan every time and whatever I "suggest" to him as my expectations he does! But it does not last!! We go thru somewhat of a "honeymoon" period. This is the problem. However, I have to say that from D-day things have changed. There was a time he would not agree to NC because he said talking to her has nothing to do with his feelings for me.
Here is brief history of my story:
Married - 10 yrs
D-day Oct. 2003 PA-1 yr.OW moved down street to be close. WH wanted out of M. Negotiated 60 days to stay.LB'd alot.Still in contact
Jan.2004-Left home for 1 week.I found MB started Plan A.Contact w/me & OW.Called saying was lost wanted to come home, felt pressured.OW took pills, WH asked me to go help her. I met OW.
End of week OW moved out of state, WH helped her move.
Stayed in contact via emails/phone.
June 2004-OW drove from out of state to meet WH at hotel for 3 days.OW bragged to me via phone confrontation. I told WH to get out of my house he asked for another chance!
Nov.2004-WH states he needs to go see if OW just a "fantasy", cries, I tell him go with love and help him pack! WH states "why do you think I want to do this?".
With OW 2 days-on way back text msgs me that he loves me very much (we dont text). My response was anger.Whole week no contact from me lots of ILY's from him, not home but would come by while I was at work to do honey do's.
Invited me to dinner, I said No, WH got drunk. 2 weeks passed w/more initiated contact from him to me. WH supposed to go back and "spend more time w/OW" per OW and all would be ok that weekend. WH told me he was "dreading" it and wanted to come home to his baby.States I love you more! Came home with promises of "its over".
Dec.2004-NC letter sent. OW sends angry emails.WH blocks and deletes email accts.Changes cell #.
Jan.25,2005-WH takes 1 day trip w/boss, I have to be out of town for weekend for work. I discuss my fear of him meeting OW and WH assures me not to worry! WH meets OW!
Feb.2005-OW's friend? sends me anonymous email telling me WH was w/OW that wkend and how could I live w/a d... like that?
I confronted WH, WH denies, I show email, WH comes clean.Stated he really tried NC and it just snowballed, he missed her, was trying to wean them off of each other! I tell WH to pack his things, I dont love him anymore! WH tells sister, he has hurt me too bad doesnt know how to make it right. I go to attorney, file for D. WH seems devistated. Does not want D.says its payback, asks me not to file that he has tried not to "dissapoint" me and if I stop proceedings he will stop A. I state boundaries and requirements remain the same!
March 2005-I start my own intense investigation!
April 2005- WH maintains NC for 3 wks, states panic, unblocks email, calls OW. I confront! Ask WH if he wants to leave, I read MB thread re:withdrawal to him.He asks for my help, wants his sanity back.I again state my requirements to stay in home w/me.WH states "I am not having an affair". He agrees to be honest w/me tho he doesnt want to hurt me. I ask for a plan, another NC letter, block emails. WH states "NC letter for me?"
Last week-WH calls me to inform of email from OW, I thanked him for being honest and said now block. He said Ok.
Present - emails still not blocked, OW emailing, WH reading, WH not informing me, WH has NOT responded to emails!

Sorry, tried to make it short. I am no dummy as I have had extensive training on behavioral therapy due to my profession (although I am somewhat at a loss for my own sitch) As of just today, I think I have come to an awakening of sorts, it appears that as soon as I "act" distant instead of my normal attentive self towards WH, he "pushes" for the closeness and communication. I see a pattern. But cannot quite decide if it is my distance or because he has gotten his "fix" from OW and is again feeling "secure" with both of us meeting his needs. Hope this makes some kind of sense?
Ok, my book for the day, lol

Sabot:

What is your response to the last message that I sent you?

The MB System is different than traditional psychology. Because of my profession, I'm very much familiar with it too.

Again, I recommend that you follow the MB System to a tee.



Your PLAN is PLAN A or PLAN B. It's time to start thinking about PLAN B if he does not do another NC letter.

What's going on Sabot?

I've lived this. You know that. You've read my story.

You have to look at Family System to work on your issues. OW is triangulated to your spousal relationship and right now you are in circular causality. The more you presses him the more he run to OW. You have to stop it since you are the one that have control over this. WH & OW are in the fog. It is counter intuitive but it works. Since you mention that he is seeking for closenes to you when you withdrew a bit, I suggest you to try 180 degree, it works well on WH than WW ...

He is a cake eater right now.

-rh-

Hi Mimi, not much to report. I havent seen any evidence of contact thru emails anyway. WH is doing all kinds of things around the house, things that he has neglected for the last couple of years! Geez, hes even doing laundry. Made a meatloaf for dinner last night (this coming from a man that has never cooked) I told him before leaving work that he needed to appreciate everything he has! He seemed surprised at that remark asking me whats wrong, and am I alright? Same day he called me at work all day just to check in and asked me if I wanted to go dancing. We did and had a wonderful time. He kept bringing up that I've been acting strange the last couple of days, whats going on?" I said to him "you tell me whats going on or whats wrong when you already know!" And asked "arent you glad we went out?" I told him I would be just as happy staying home. He stated "you dont seem happy at home." I responded "did you ever think that living with someone who is lying and betraying you would maybe make it a bit hard to be happy?" He said, I am not doing that now. So here I go...I stated 3 times..."So you have not had any contact from OW that you have not told me about?" He finally admitted, "yeah, well, maybe once." Discussion ended there on that subject then went on to talk about our finances. Seems he is always worried about that and stated that I dont seem to care! I said to him because you have always taken care of everything and never discuss it with me! We discussed that he has blown all kinds of money in the last year while in A. He said I know but that doesnt make it right! I have never wanted you to have to worry about anything and like you say some things do change. So here I go again...I state "WHY CANT YOU COMMUNICATE WITH ME???? I AM YOUR WIFE, I LIVE WITH YOU EVERY DAY, I SEE YOU AT YOUR WORST, I WASH YOUR DIRTY DRAWERS...AND YOU CANNOT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS REGARDING "OUR" FINANCES???
So with that we discuss some changes and adjustments that we will make immediately!
I had absolutely NO realization of this and also apologized for my negligence of not knowing and not trying to find out. Seems we have broke through a wall and WH's actions are different today, more on a positive note.
Could this be a major EN of his that I have not known about??

Thanks also redhat for your advice, I do have his family involved, his sister is so wonderful and a devout christian and she has had numerous conversations with WH about what he is doing! She is also trying to be supportive to his needs. His parents dont want to get involved which bothers me because he is a deacon at the church! But I cannot make them, they just say they are praying for us!
It is hard for me to "act" distant from my WH, it is not natural...I am a very affectionate person. But it does seem that he comes more to me when I do.

Family System is a therapy model. Anyway, your act of distancing is the only one working here. So train yourself to do it ... remember Instinct and Habit from basic concept.

-rh-

Sabot..

See your post thru my eyes....

You got a husband TRYING for cease and desist contact...
and one that you are saying he is coming to realize more and more the great value it holds for HIM...

As logical it seems that instant no contact should be easy and simple for a WS we know that usually it is not...for a multitude of reasons....

AND
most importantly you can't force no contact
you can't make no contact happen....

but you can control your emotional reactions...(not the feelings) and you can choose to support or you can choose to unload your anger and frustration...which may not serve YOU well you in the end...

I think you need to reign in your own anger and figure out some other way to release it...

AND
I think you are losing site of the long term goal of a rebuilt marriage in which you both thrive and cherish one another....

WH is doing all kinds of things around the house, things that he has neglected for the last couple of years! Geez, hes even doing laundry. Made a meatloaf for dinner last night (this coming from a man that has never cooked)

I hope you are slurping him up and down for the good things he is doing..that you are bombarding him with thanks and aprreciation...and showing him how much you value these things....
not muttering things like it's about time...or why now...why not years ago....

I told him before leaving work that he needed to appreciate everything he has!

wow....if my spouse said that to me I would immediately become defensive or overwhelmingly sad...
that's a very mean thing to say...and if you don't want to heal this marriage..thats a good way to go about it...

and saying things like that to a spouse when you are out the door and off to work...is unfair...it leaves the spouse reeling with no opportunity to discuss or defend...it's like a hit and run attack....

I said to him "you tell me whats going on or whats wrong when you already know!"

bad communication technique...
not going to serve you or the marriage well in the long run..
he asked you a questions..
answer him directly and sincerely...otherwise you are just as responsible for poor communication techniques that you should be practicing and modeling...

Also this guy called you up
invited you and took you dancing...
and instead of being gracious you turn on him and most likely ruin the whole night....

And asked "arent you glad we went out?" I told him I would be just as happy staying home.

again not very nice....

He stated "you dont seem happy at home." I responded "did you ever think that living with someone who is lying and betraying you would maybe make it a bit hard to be happy?"

wow there's a kick to the groin to someone who is TRYING to do better...and appears to be doing 'better' in action...and keeps getting pushed down...

do you see it sabot...
I offer this not to tick you off
or not in a non-supportive way...
but sheesh there are so many other choices to deal with this....
and I can only post to YOU and YOUR reactions since this is YOUR post...

"WHY CANT YOU COMMUNICATE WITH ME???? I AM YOUR WIFE, I LIVE WITH YOU EVERY DAY, I SEE YOU AT YOUR WORST, I WASH YOUR DIRTY DRAWERS...AND YOU CANNOT TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS REGARDING "OUR" FINANCES???

when is your plan to stop this cycle...
why wouldn't you
why couldn't you have said...

husband...
let me first thank you for sharing your fear with me..
I wan't nothing more than as your wife for you to be able to speak to me of your fears, your hopes, your goals your dreams....

I realize that you have made really bad choices this past year...and I want to work thru that..and start over...

instead you slam him once again...
why should he continue to try..
he tries to share a fear perhaps for the first time...and you jump all over him....eeeeek!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sabot...what is your long term goal here
what is your vision on how you two communicate
what is your plan to show him hope and belief that he can change from making such destructive decisions...
and rewarding him when he does...


this is not meant to make you mad...but as a objective viewer of this post...it's how I see it...
ARK^^

SABOT:

Listen to ARK! I agree with her wholeheartedly!

Your WH seems to be doing great and needs your support and encouragement now. I couldn't understand your response to him.

Sabot,

To add to the good support you are receiving, let me say that in your case (as in mine), your giver needs to take a break. In my case, my doing less gave me more.

The WS wants his M but as long as he isn't giving MORE than his fair share (he has to, to repair the damage the A has done) so unless he is willing to give more (meet your ENs and boundaries) even if it seems a bit extreme), HE needs to do this. HE needs to make you feel safe and not 'wonder' about the A.

Let him know that as long as you have 'doubts' of the A, you do NOT feel safe. He needs to wear his pants not keep giving it to others.

Right now, plan B c/b an option. I like plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yep, even now.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks Ark and Mimi for the 2x4!!
Looks different from anothers perspective. I will surely take the constructive criticism to heart and try to focus more on the positive actions he is TRYING to exhibit. I guess I am just worn out and even tho I am notorious for being the optimist in our relationship, this has taken its toll on me! But I will make a sincere effort to back up and regroup and remember what my goal is.

I just HATE the lies and cant understand how someone can justify them!

redhat,
I will continue to do what seems to work, it does get much easier as my feelings change due to disappointment from his actions of continued betrayal.

Orchid,

I think he is trying but doesnt really know how, or maybe I just cant seem to "feel" it no matter what he does! He has lived this lie for so long and has always covered it up so to speak by being overboard "nice" to me due to his guilt. I internalize everything and I may just be my own worst enemy with my thoughts. I just cant take anymore of the deceipt at this point! I want him to fight for ME if thats what he wants and if not then carry on and let me carry on.

On a side note, considering your description of OW, please consider renting the movie, "Play Misty For Me," starring and directed by Clint Eastwood.

Get your H to watch it with you.

Tell us his reaction. It ought to get his attention.

In the meantime, hide any scissors in your house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Ok WAT, havent seen it but will look it up on my movie queue!