Basic situation: My H has long, long been in the habit of ignoring me for other people - usually women, but anyone who will feed his ego will do. He decided years ago, unknown to me, that as long as he was good to me at home it did not matter what he did while he was at work and/or on the road. It should not affect me and it should not hurt me. End of statement. His head is rock-hard on this one.

I have tried to reason with him for years about this, and to absolutely no avail. Nothing will convince him that any married person should put their partner's needs and feelings first instead of putting other people's needs and feelings first. This is especially true if the "other people" are fawning female co-workers, but as I said, anyone who will stroke him and give him attention will do.

I want to emphasize that there was never any trouble between us per se. We had a lot of fun together, had a lot in common, had a great family, and *never* argued. But that was before I found out that after everything I tried to give him at home, he was stuffing himself like a glutton at work (or, as I call it, The Crack House.)

Everone knows that a person can becomed addicted to alcohol, heroin, meth, nicotine, sex or gambling. Can they also become addicted to attention and admiration?

According to what I have read, it's an addiction if it fits these criteria:

1) The person is secretive about what they are doing. (Check.)

2) The behavior is having a destructive effect on the other parts of their life, but they refuse to stop the behavior. (Check.)

3) The person is utterly blind to the effect their behavior is having on those closest to them. (Check.)

Sure, any A sounds like this, but I am talking about a very destructive and excessive need for admiration, attention and ego-stroking even when it's destroying his marriage and causing his wife and family to suffer greatly. I'm talking about rock-solid insistence that it is perfectly okay to put other people first instead of putting his wife and family first, and being angry and frurstrated if they won't go along with this.

I guess I have little choice but to look at it as an addiction -- because if it's not, the only other answer is that he really is a cold-blooded [censored] who enjoys hurting me.

This behavior has been going on for 15+ years. It is nothing new. It started when he began climbing the corporate ladder and learned how easy it was to lie to me and soak it up in carloads from the office bimbos. He grew up as poor and neglected white trash with hardly a pair of shoes to his name. Now he is a huge big shot with his international company and has a head with the size and consistency of a boulder.

Does anyone else belive there can be such a thing as an "attention addict," or am I all wet today?
Mulan

Hmm. Well, I know the reason my H had his A was because of the postitive attention/admiration my H received from the OW. It is so EASY to only give positive when you don't live with that person! That's what I think, anyway. For instance, the OW was my Former Best Friend, and all she ever did was tell my H how wonderful he was. And boy did he soak that up.

Every situation is so different. For us, I realized that for years I didn't think my H made good decisions. I admired him for many things, but I also reminded him of his mistakes ~ often. And in front of others sometimes. And H thought I thought less of him, that he was not my equal, that he was an "idiot" (his word).

Then, when he made so many poor choices with the A, that seemed to validate my opinion all along that he didn't make good decisions! But he said he didn't make good decisions, because I didn't think he could make good decisions! And we were stuck in a loop of . . . well, it wasn't healthy or productive or pleasant.

Just recently, I have taken responsibility for my H not feeling admired by my. I never voiced all the admiration I had for him in all the areas that I was proud of him about ~ he is a great dad, he makes a good living, he doesn't travel anymore with work so he can be home with his family, etc. I guess I thought he just "knew" all that stuff. So, I started saying out loud all the times I felt a warm fuzzy for him, instead of thinking he "knew" I was thinking that, and stopped throwing his mistakes in his face. I know I don't like MY mistakes thrown in my face.

But, this is just MY sitch. My H had one A, that didn't last very long. H also went to 8 months of MC, and has been willing to do what I need to get over all this. I feel the most admiration for him lately, for the way he has stuck with this thing we call Recovery. He has been my rock.

Mulan, you are such a great lady. I really wish your H would have an Oprah "Ah-ha" moment, and start giving you some of the stuff you really need to stay in this thing called Recovery. For such a big shot, he doesn't seem very . . . I don't know ~ DJ coming on ~ bright? Thoughtful? Insightful? Mature? Compassionate?

Is he really that hard-hearted? I assume you have attempted to meet his need for attention/admiration? Or does he seem to only want it from the "Crack House?" Hang in there, sweetie. Keep posting. I love reading what you have to say.

Spidey

***Is he really that hard-hearted? I assume you have attempted to meet his need for attention/admiration? Or does he seem to only want it from the "Crack House?" Hang in there, sweetie. Keep posting. I love reading what you have to say.***
Spidey

Hey, Spidey, Thanks for the admiration and attention! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, though, the problem is, he wants attention/admiration from me, from The Crack House, from waitresses, from saleswomen, from strippers, from pretty much everyone in the world. Too much is never enough.

And yes, I never hesitated to tell him how proud of him I was and how much I enjoyed being with him. I am the only one who knows where he really came from and that he never graduated high school - he's only got a GED and would be MORTIFIED if any of the other big shots ever found out.

I sometimes wonder if this is part of why he is so determined to cut me out of his work life. I know exactly where he came from and believe me, his origins are nothing like the Harvard MBA guys he now deals with every day. I think that getting as far as he did is something to be proud of, not something to hide. I've told him this many times, but he remains terrified that somebody might find out.

Also -- he is equally embarrassed by the fact that we met at a Star Trek convention. Go ahead and laugh -- hey, everybody has to meet somewhere! Is that any worse than meeting somebody while drunk in a bar??? He sure thinks so.

It's not like I haven't kept up with him while he was climbing the ladder. I can certainly keep up with any conversation. I am a multi-published novelist in my own right with paperbooks in stores around the world - I got a fan letter from Australia just a couple of days ago. I am in decent shape and can look quite nice with a little paint and cloth.

But I remind him of his origins, I think, and either way I just plain get in the way of all the people (and bimbos) just dying to suck up to him at his work events. That's why I can't be there. Most people *enjoy* sharing their success with someone they love -- I sure do. I hate going to book signings alone and would much rather have him there. He stopped going with me, though, because if he shares what *I* am doing then I can say I should share what *he* is doing.

But addicts don't share their fix.

When I also worked at The Crack House, I would sometimes attempt to engage him *as an equal* in something of a debate about company policy, etc. etc. This was NOT b*tchy or adversarial -- I worked there too and I saw it as relating to him as an equal. Think Eleanor Roosevelt and FDR. But his bimboes would NEVER do this -- it was 100% sucking up all the way with them. And sorry, I was not about to turn into a brainless walking twat just to get his attention.

The thing is -- even *if* I had done nothing but suck up to him, I am convinced it would never have been enough. I am only one person. He needs a HUGE audience constantly telling him what a great guy he is and how important he is. Too much is never enough. That's why I don't think this is a normal need for attention and admiration that we all have on some level.

I just don't know what, if anything, I can do about it.

What kind of man ignores his own very lonely wife to go out and get praise and attention from bimbos, acquaintances, co-workers and strangers instead?

The same kind of man who would rather drink, or shoot up, or gamble, rather than take care of own wife and family?

A man who is an addict and therefore has his priorities hopelessly backward?

He becomes very angry and hostile at the idea of giving any of this up. He sees NO reason to have to put his marriage first and considers that to be "controlling." The POJA just means "You get to control my life" (said with a snarl.) This man negotiates with Wal-Mart, GM and the Chinese (yes, the Communist Chinese) to set up major huge-money deals, but suddenly becomes utterly incapable of compromise or negotiation when it comes to his own wife (who really is not that hard to get along with -- she just finally got tired of being a second-class citizen in her own marriage.)

Well, somebody talk to me, please -- he's back in China again this week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Spidey and I can't be the only ones dealing with this sort of thing.

Mulan>now wishing I had NOT chosen a "Chinese" screen name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi Mulan,
My WH doesn't crave attention from everyone just mostly pretty women that smile at him. I think he also feels inferior because of his educational back ground. He does have an Associates Degree but most of the people he works with have graduate degrees. He works with computers and actually helped developed some of the tech that they use. I've often told him that he was in the right place at the right time being on the ground floor of the technology breakthrough in his field. Had he gone on for a higher degree he would have missed out on the opportunities he had.
I've told him that I was proud of accomplishments.

It doesn't mean anything from me. He will not accept the praise or support I offer. OW has HS diploma and worked as a waitress for a while. When she married her H, she quit working because OWH was willing to work 2 jobs to support her. So she has all kinds of free time to tell my WH how wonderful and smart he is.

WH has put me at I'd say 23rd on his priority list just after clipping his toenails. Thats a hard fall from worshiping the ground I walked on. He was so thoughtful, romantic and supportive in the early years. We used to joke that he used up his romance skills too early. Who knew he was just using them on someone else. AAAAARRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!

Mulan - It sounds to me that if he 'requires' all this attention from EVERYONE, regardless of how it affects you, him or anyone else that he is searching for attention (affirmation?) because he can't give it to HIMSELF.

He needs anyone and everyone to do it for him.
Attention affirms that you are a good person, worthy of attention. I always wondered how much of a difference there was bewteen attention and affirmation. They go hand in hand.

Has he been in IC? Sounds like this is something a C could help him with - learning to affirm himself so he doesn't need external affirmation (attention) to feel worthy.

I might be way off base, but that is MHO.

Frags

Mulan, I'm with Frags on this one ~ I can see how your H's ceaseless craving of outside validation for himself represents his own feelings of worthlessness.

Perhaps, the only way he can feel worthy or important is from these other people. Perhaps he never developed any true self value. Many people "hide" no self value with outwardly thinking very highly of themselves. Some of the most healthy people I know (healthy and balanced on the inside, capable of realizing their own self-worth) are very quiet and capable about themselves. There's not a lot of boasting, bragging, shouting, attention-seeking.

Maybe your H's internal self-talk is so demoralizing for him, he has become down-right frantic about seeking validation from others.

Perhaps, he is to be pitied, rather than be angry at. For him to bristle so at your request to POJA, when as you stated he obviously knows the art of communication and deal-making. It could be just like his A, the way he treats you has nothing to do with you at all ~ he does not know how to let go of the only thing that makes him feel valued ~ external validation.

{{{{{Mulan}}}}}

Spidey

Hi Mulan,
Spidey is a tough act to follow, but...
I believe, or rather, I KNOW there is such a thing as an "attention addict."

I'm curious -- does the following sound like your WH?

A grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Confused, Fraggles and Spidey, I certainly concur. It seems to me that an endless need for external validation is just a sign of a huge hole on the inside. To go on seeking out this kind of validation even when it is destroying his own marriage and family is certainly not normal by any stretch of the imagination.

The sad part is, he's always had people who adored him - his wife and family. He knew this and we always let him know how happy he made us. But that was before the upward corporate climb at The Crack House, and then we could no longer compete. He started ignoring us and shoving us out of the way to get every drop of attention from suck-ups, sycophants, bimbos, sluts and higher-ups, all of whom were only using and manipulating him the same way he was using them.

But honest to god, he thought it was all "real." And he still does.

He never realized that all of that corporate crap is only a self-serving game. He believed every bit of bullsh*t they fed him, and then started to believe his own bullsh*t. He still does believe it or he certainly wouldn't be trading his marriage and family for it. And there's nothing more destructive than believing your own bullsh*t.

Here's the catch: Because he is so successful and popular at work, this only validates for him that his actions in ignoring his family are validated! He must have done the right thing because The Crack House continues to richly reward him, so it MUST be his wife and family who are all wrong if they aren't willing to be ignored while he reaps his vast rewards at work!

Absolutely nothing gets through to him on this. Nothing. He reacts just like an addict does when somebody tries to cut off the fix -- with angry, cruelty and coldness, and an even harder determination to go right on protecting that fix at ALL costs.

He used to have a wonderful family. Now he has a grown daughter who is thoroughly disgusted with him, a grandchild and son-in-law that he's in danger of never seeing again, a wife having a nervous breakdown and a teenage son who wonders why his mother cries all the time.

But all of that is OUR fault. WE just don't understand how important he is, and how important his job is, and how he HAS to put his job (and all the people he works with) FIRST if we want to keep our house and cars and standard of living. His threat is always that if he can't put his job first, we will be living in a trailer and have nothing. And so he goes right on putting other people first and drivng that car called "Family" right off a cliff.

Nothing can stop him. Nothing can get through to him. I have tried for far too long. One day he probably will wake up and realize what he's done, but by then it wil be far too late. And that's very, very sad.
Mulan

Tgt, if I'm not mistaken, I believe you provided the classic definition of a narcissist.

Hi tqt,
Yes, I've read that list before -- those are the qualities of a narcississt. Yes, they do sound very much like him. I have often wondered if that's what I'm really dealing with. His mother was the same and also very neglectful of him and his many siblings.

Did you end up with a narc? How did you deal with it?

Thanks -
Mulan

Addict is a good term to describe this behavior.

As to WHY he is addicted, I'm with Fraggles, it sounds like he is "filling his cup" and trying to compensate for the old head-scripts he developed as a kid. (i.e., "I don't have value").

It's sort of laziness though too. That is, it is EASIER to get self worth from admiration of others, albeit superficial.

Sad thing is, so long as he keeps getting his self worth from others, he will be dependent on them for self worth---and therefore--still insecure. Insecure---seek admiration--get admiration--feel good--dependent on admirartion--not feel good--insecure. Vicious cycle.

The irony is--he is seeking to gain something from someone else--that he can only provide himself. The trouble is when you are insecure and seeking to gain self love you have to be HONEST with WHO you are, before you can accept yourself--the REAL you. Like any drug addict, who has betrayed friends and family, the person WHO the WS has become--ain't so pretty...so in addition to all of the childhood scripts saying that WH is not good enough, WH must also face what a jerk he has become.

As I understand, you are staying because you are waiting for your son to leave home. Do you plan to leave WH then?

Mulan, I know a lot of men AND women like this. My H is like that and so is the rest of his family. I have always been proud of my H, that he knows so much about so many things. My being proud of him and letting him know it even in front of others was never enough. He likes to be the center of attention and will bend over backwards to do
things for others that bring him attention he needs (I guess), even when it looks like he's being used to me. I still admire him but it would be so great if he could appreciate MY admiration of him too and even better if he could admit that he's proud of me for something. Surely there's something! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It's gotten to the point that I won't go out to eat with his brothers or sisters unless it's absolutely unavoidable. The coffee's never hot enough, the iced tea doesn't taste right, the food's never "just right", the prices too high! Ultimate attention getting at someone else's expense. I hate that. Thank goodness, H is not craving that kind of attention. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I know that's not in the same vein as you mention, but still attention getting tactics. Maybe it's just the way some people are.

***Like any drug addict, who has betrayed friends and family, the person WHO the WS has become--ain't so pretty...so in addition to all of the childhood scripts saying that WH is not good enough, WH must also face what a jerk he has become.***

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I think he does know what he has become, but cannot and will not face that. He has even said that it does not match the image he has of himself as a noble, honorable and even chivalrous man and that he is having a hard time with that.

But instead of facing up to it and taking responsibility for it, he just fights that much harder against having to put his wife and family first. It's as if he has to PROVE that he is right and it really is okay to put other people first, and so he becomes more determined than ever to go on putting other people first.

That way, he can blame me instead of himself when, of course, that only makes things worse.

What a waste. What a complete and total waste.
Mulan

I have a girlfriend who does stuff like that. She has to have "extra extra extra ice" in her water cup at the restaurant. If the cup is only half full of ice, she calls the server over and asks for MORE ice. Like how cold can the water be??? And every order is special ~ "Absolutely NO green or red peppers, I'm allergic and I'll go into shock and you'll have to call an ambulance if any peppers get into my food (she's not allergic, but she doesn't like them, and she thinks they are more likely to follow her request if she threatens to DIE in their establishment?!)," extra extra onions, with a side of honey mustard sauce, etc. Drives me NUTS. And she loves to complain to the management, about anything. And have her Starbucks remade at least once, because she used to work there and nobody else does it quite right. *sigh*

I love her, but GOOD GRIEF!!! She knows to tone it down around me, because I tell her when she is over the top. And thank goodness, or I don't think I could go out with her anymore!

I feel better after venting. Thank you.

Spidey

***It's gotten to the point that I won't go out to eat with his brothers or sisters unless it's absolutely unavoidable. The coffee's never hot enough, the iced tea doesn't taste right, the food's never "just right", the prices too high! Ultimate attention getting at someone else's expense. I hate that.***

Actually, TO4T, that sounds very familiar. He likes nothing better than to complain about some service and get something for free, as though it hasn't dawned on him that he is no longer the poor white trash boy who can't afford anything. He expects service people of every kind to suck up to him and, if they are female, to flirt with him and stroke him. I've seen this too many times to count.

Ever seen the guy who won't hand the clerk the credit card, but flips it across the counter instead? That's him. And the guy who has to chat up every cute young waitress for every drop of attention he can get from her, and then growls about "negative tip points" if she doesn't suck up enough? That's him.

I do think this is related to MB because this type of selfish, arrogant and downright addictive behavior is surely a factor in many As. My H had a double life involving porn, strippers and business trips, and got himself waaaaaaaaaay wrapped up with the cheap females at work. I will never know how far it really went. But I sure do know that he would do virtually anything for a good fix of attention - especially female attention.

I do think I am dealing with a series character issue here and not a typical fall off the wagon of marital life, and that's why I have always been an utter failure at MB. Again, we did not run into trouble because of things *between us*. It happened because the higher he got on the corporate ladder, the more he turned outside the marriage for attention, strokes and validation -- and so the more damage was inflicted on the marriage.

But god knows, you can't tell him that.
Mulan

Yes, that was a list of classic symptoms of NPD. I wasn't making a game out of it, but thought that rather than throwing out "diagnoses" and "personality disorders" etc... I'd stick with just the behavior end of things.

To answer your questions, Mulan...

I believe I did end up with someone with... shall we say... an oversupply of narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies(?)
Throw in some sort of mid-life crisis/depression?, a serious self-esteem problem, and there ya have it!

How did I deal with it? I guess the answer is I didn't, at least not effectively.

We were together almost 25 years though, so I must've done SOMETHING right once in a while...


Reading your last post... he sounds like a fun guy to have hanging around the house...
I'd read up on Sociopathic disorders too, if I were you.

The saddest? scariest? part about this stuff is that, for all intents and purposes, people like this can't change.
With a lot of work they can, through therapy, be "trained" to better control the symptoms/behavior, but the nature of the beast is such that they see no reason to be in a therapist's office anyway.

Way deep down underneath it all, though... is a very frightened and confused soul. Knowing that, it's easy for me to feel sorry for them, in spite of how rotten and heartless their outward behavior is.

Maybe this type of behavior does go back to their early years. My H's family had nothing either when they were growing up. I think it was pretty much expected that the boys would get jobs instead of finishing school. Both his parents had no problem disciplining, the boys especially, but I think his mother wore the pants in the family so to speak. For the short time I knew his Dad he seemed pretty easy-going--except when she lit a fire under him! Well, all the boys left town as soon as they could find jobs elsewhere. And like I said before, my H is good at almost everything. He's always put his best effort into whatever he did and it's paid off for him. They're still a close family (his Dad passed away many years ago) but I still think he's the way he is toward me at times because he's determined not to be ruled by any woman the way his Dad was. Well, that's my diagnosis anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So there, I've said it - Everything's NOT my fault - It's my dear MIL's fault <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mulan, I can tell how painful this is for you. I'm so sorry you're hurting. Does your H exclude you from his business gatherings or do you choose to not be exposed to his behavior at them? Not that I have any answers-I just know that at times I've not wanted to be in public with my husband when he treats me like I don't exist or puts me down in front of people. It's embarrassing!

Spidey - glad you feel better after venting about your friend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I felt better after writing that about my ILs!

I know this letter is not very MB-like. It's probably full of DJs - but is it a DJ if it's true? Yes, he DOES say that my needs and feelings are "bullsh*t" -- that's his word -- and his actions back up his words.

Go ahead with the 2x4s.

But he sure can't say I didn't warn him.
********************************************

In the last five years, here is what I have learned:

You are very happy to have ME take care of YOU. You fully expect me to do this for you full-time, and are angry and pissed-off if I'm not there for you when you think I should be.

But you will NOT do the same for me. I can expect financial support from you, but that's all. Any other needs I have from my husband, such as emotional support or companionship, are BULLSH*T according to you.

You see NO reason why I can't wait to get what I need from you until the end of the day, whenever that comes around -- until AFTER you are finished taking care of other people so you can get your fix of strokes and attention from THEM.

You see NO reason to have to put your marriage first. According to you, a marriage should take care of itself. It should have NO need for care or protection from YOU. That's just a pain in the [censored]. YOUR only obligation to our marriage is financial support, and I am a raving B*TCH if I expect anything more than that.

If I ask you for anything else -- if I ask you to put me first and be there for me simply because I need you -- that's all BULLSH*T according to you.

You have made it crystal clear that your first priority is to YOURSELF. Not us. Not our marriage. YOU need YOUR freedom to go off and get what YOU need from other people at ANYTIME. THAT is your priority -- not your marriage, not your wife, and not your family.

(Do you really think that by ignoring and disregarding and hurting your wife, you are not ignoring and disregarding and hurting your son, daughter, son-in-law and grand-daughter? Oh, yeah -- that idea is just BULLSH*T, too.)

YOUR needs deserve to be met and by god they will be, but my needs are BULLSH*T.

I needed to feel that I was first in my husband's life, just like any wife does. But this has always interfered with your getting your daily fix of attention from other people -- especially other women -- so my need for feeling first in your life is BULLSH*T.

You destroyed my trust in you by constantly ignoring me for other people. I asked you to help me restore that trust by doing several things:

Follow the POJA in our marriage.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. You insist this will never work for us.

Send me copies of your work e-mail, so I will not feel so shut out and cut off as I always have felt.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. I have no access to your work e-mail.

Allow me access to your work voicemail for the same reason as your e-mail.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. I have no access to listen to your voice mail.

Please stop making plans without talking them over with me first, so that I can have some real input into things that directly affect me.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. You still insist on making all the decisions and refuse to acknowledge that what you do affects me.

Please stop going to social-type things without me, because that makes me feel abandoned and disregarded. It's also exactly the behavior that led to all the trouble in the first place.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. You go right on going off to things without me whenever you feel like it.

Please stop ignoring me for other people and putting their needs and feelings in front of mine, because that is destroying our marriage by making me feel like I am absolutely nothing in your eyes.
Your answer: BULLSH*T. You go right on putting other people's needs and feelings first, because that gets you attention from them and NOTHING ON EARTH matters more than that.

YOUR needs and feelings matter and deserve to be cared for and protected.

MY needs and feelings are BULLSH*T.

Why? Because if you have put to me and your marriage first, you can't put your own bottomless need for attention from other people first instead.

But that is why things are so horribly screwed up here. Your marriage ALWAYS comes in last to your need for attention and strokes from other people. Your wife is ALWAYS shoved aside anytime somebody else is lined up to give you attention.

But you are angry and frustrated by this and insist you don't understand what the problem is.

You are so different and special and important that you are the one man on earth who doesn't have to care for and protect his marriage.

You are so different and special and important that you are the one man on earth who is entitled to ignore and disregard his wife, instead of cherishing her and protecting her and being there for her.

And when your marriage fails and your family falls apart and your wife has a nervous breakdown, you insist that it has NOTHING to do with YOUR behavior. It's just more BULLSH*T to you.

I can't ask you to help me. I can't ask you to work with me. I can't ask you to compromise with me. I can't ask you negotiate with me. I have tried all those things many times. The only answer I get is "BULLSH*T." And life goes on just like before.

You ARE an addict, WH. You are so addicted to strokes and attention and admiration from other people that you honestly think you are entitled to ignore and disregard your own family's needs while you try to fill your own.

Here's the tragic part of it: This desperate (and very transparent) need for attention you have can NEVER be filled by outsiders, suck-ups and strangers like you think it can.

It can only be filled by you.

That's the piece that's missing.

Your family would have been glad to help you do this. But you shoved them aside to go get your fix elsewhere, and you go right on shoving them aside to this day.

Your own self-respect, and the love and respect of your family, would have given you what you were looking for. *THAT* is what would have filled that hole you've got inside -- you know, the hole where the poor little white-trash boy still lives, terrified that the Big Shots are going to find out about him.

I would loved to have been the one to help you with this. But you ignored, rejected, and stomped down my every effort to help you do exactly that. I can't go through life starving to death emotionally while you give it all to strangers and outsiders instead in hopes of getting a fix.

This is just like the heroin addict who buys dope instead of food and lets his own family go hungry -- only in this case, it's emotional starvation instead of physical starvation.

I can't sell my soul so you can go on desperately trying to fill that hole inside of you with everything BUT the love and respect of your wife and family. You could have had that love and respect from us in endless amounts, but that would have meant putting your marriage and family first --and doing that is nothing but BULLSH*T to you.

You've made that more than clear.

Oh Mulan,

I don't think that's the kind of attention he wants. LOL

Don't send it, it is not only full of DJ's, the whole thing is a DJ.

It is just the way I talked to my ex-fiance for three years, and all it did was keep me in hell.

I finally called off the wedding and asked him to move out because I was becoming the worst kind of miserable hag.

He is an attention addict too. Don't laugh but his thing is karaoki (sp). He says he has to go to the bar and sing because he loves the attention he gets.

Mulan, I finally just detached and let him go. He is working hard on his issues and trying to find his value from within now. (except for the karoaki thing)

Do you still have Plan B in your back pocket?

I know your pain, because I so recognise it in that letter. I could have wrote it myself (and that was right before our planned wedding)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Mulan! Thanks for the post! I don't have time to read the whole thread (I'm supposed to be working today at my computer, but checking in to see how Dani is doing) -- but your description fits my sitch to a "t."

I, too, live in Crack House, a whole community of enablers. My WH was in crappy health to my eyes -- but everyone told him how wonderful he was, so he never went to the doctors. So he had a stroke, and now walks and looks like Quasimodo. Other people are enabling his delusion, telling him how he's getting better and better. Why should he bother with therapy?

But he still picked up a crazy lesbian OW, who was glomming on to the alpha male with all her attention. That was better than a wife who was stirring the soup at home. Now everyone is trying to pretend this crazywoman is okay.

He neglects his kids, because they need a father, not an idol. The kids won't confront him -- he's not open to them. No honest feedback there.

He's smart, but doesn't learn anything anymore, nor listen to anyone. Why should he? He gets praise for being just as he is.

He is a depressive -- he wanted me to be "emotionally independent" But when I became emotionally independent, he was resentful of my successful career. Plus I wasn't giving him all my attention -- so he turned to the OW.

It goes on and on. I know he's got a black hole inside him - and OW is a creature from the dark side. But I don't know where it came from. His parents doted on him.

But I could never be 500 adoring people for him. And if I could, he'd want 1000.

Hey Mulan, what's you email addy?