I've posted this in the Plan A/Plan B section already, but this section seems to get more traffic.

I am an American who has been married and living in Europe for the past 19 years. I have two children, aged 17 and 10. My husband has been having an affair with his best friends wife (also Godmother to our youngest and a colleague of my husband's at work) for the past 3 years.

After employing plan A unsuccessfully and my husband stating in therapy that he needed 2-3 more months to decide whether or not he was willing to recommit to our marriage and still insisting that since he is no longer sleeping with the other woman, that there is no need for him to end his friendship with her or stop working together with her, I have switched to plan B. After a long period of denial, thinking I deserved my husband's treatment of me for allowing myself to embark on a career, I realized that my husband was at least having an emotional affair. I tried my best to do plan A while putting pressure on him to end his relationship with the OW for 1 year. The whole time he kept insisting that they were only friends and it wasn't until November 29, 2004 that he admitted to having a sexual affair for with the OW off and on for the last 3 years. It is not easy to appear strong all the time when you are suffering from panic attacks. I just could not take it any more and asked my husband on February 24th to move out until he was willing to recommit and completely cut off all contact with the other woman. My husband is the boss of the bank branch that he works in and his boss who is a mutual friend and aware of the affair said that it would not be a problem for him to transfer the other woman to a different branch if she and/or my husband made that request.

I am two months into plan B and am in psychiatric care with medication to compat sleeplessness, depression, and panic attacks. There is one month more to hold on until my husband reaches the deadline of three months that he has set. There are yet no signs of a transfer for the other woman to another bank.

I despair when I think of the future. Beyond giving up my own financial independence to look after my husband and children, I have completely adjusted my life to fit my husband's culture, language, family, friends, etc. etc. As the children became older, I started investing more time and energy in my career, and although I still work part time and do household chores without his help, am the primary caretaker of our children and set aside LOTS of time for him, he blames my career focus for his affair. Sometimes I think that instead of being happy for me and my career success, that he felt threatend and neglected.

I am frightend about the chance that my WH may not recommit and go NC with the OW. I know that I can not live with a man that is not honest with me, keeps secrets and continues a "friendship" with the woman he had an affair with for approximately 3 years. A new start in our house without my husband, next door to my mother-in-law, across the street from my sister-in-law, and just down the street from the OW would simply not be possible for me, despite the fact that I have always got along with my in-laws fine. If our marriage fails, they will put me at fault for not accepting my husband's continued "friendship" with the other woman for the sake of the children. Uprooting our children and returning to the States would be devasting for them and is simply not an option. Just thinking about the future divorced from my husband puts me in an emotional mess. I try my best to concentrate on my daily tasks and although I have the support of a few very good woman friends, I could use the support of my own family as well.

What do I do if he is still undecided when we reach his promised time limit for a decision in a month?

Sometimes I think that I did not do plan A good enough. Is there any going back or is it sink or swim now?

LT,

I think you have plan A'd too long. What have you read from here to help you have a secure plan A and plan B? Surviving an Affair? His Needs/Her Needs? Love must be Tough?

All are good books. Remember these plans are not just to end the A or put a kink into it. These plans are to strengthen you. Which plan do you think you need t/b in to get stronger?

L.

Aww LT. I can feel your pain, as can Orchid. We've been there.

Orchid is so right - you have to get yourself strong to EITHER wrestle with yor WHs affair OR just get on with whatever else life throws at you.

An affair is about the worst thing of most of us will ever experience, but they can be recovered frm. This is a good place to be to get the help you need !

Please take a look at THIS bundle of wonderfully helpful stuff. Its a bundle of the assistance I got when I was in your shoes.

Your WH is behaving like an addict now, and is talking through a self-deluding fog. You can't trust a word he says.

But you have to get yourself healthy and strong.

Read up the toolkit, consider phone MC with Steve Harley or Penny Tupy and work with your doctor on getting yourself well enough for the WINNABLE fight !

All blessings !

Actually, separation has been better for me. Plan A was too strenuous, I felt the constant victim of psycho terror from my husband. He'd ride his bike to work with the OW, plan his free time with her, rather than me, go on outings with her kids and our kids. He'd even invite the OW and her husband over for dinner!!! I couldn't do a damn thing about it: I didn't have any proof and he wasn't admitting it, even after the OW's husband told me. The OW and her husband seem to have agreed on an "open" relationship.

Since our separation, I've started putting weight back on ... getting close to tipping the 100 lb mark again. 105 would be an acceptable minimum. I am able to avoid the situations that cause me panic attacks. I am more productive at work and more attentive of my children.

I've read Surving and Affair and pretty much everything on this site. My H is not into questionaires or following a prescribed plan. OUr marriage counselor said that my H was enjoying having both me and the OW at his disposal and he wasn't going to make a decision, so I have to.

It looks like you have given me lots of material to read. Thanks. I will look for the tool kit, is it also in the link?.

Orchid,

I used to have a fun and sarcastic sense of humor. Perhaps you can give me some advice on babble reply. Below are things that my WS typically says:

WS: The affair was not directed against you in any way.

WS: The OW never said anything against you and was always supportive of our marriage.

WS: The affair is over. We are just friends and working colleagues now.

WS: You are being unreasonably suspiscious.

WS: You have no reason to be jealous.

WS: The other woman has always been kind an generous with our children.


Here'S the one that really gets me. The kids were used by my WS and the OW to disguise the affair and they of course realized what was going on. When we were telling the kids that Papa was going to move out for a while, the 10 year old confronted him head on and asked if it was because he was having an affair. He started to lie and I pulled him out of the room telling him that I was not going to support any of his lies. If the children ask a straightforward question, they deserve a straight forward answer. They only ask what they really want to know and are capable of handling, has always been our way of dealing with our kids up until the A. So, WS was forced to tell the kids the truth.

WS: If the kids end up hating me it will be your fault.

WS: The way that you made me tell the kids about the A wasn't fair.

WS: Telling my family and your girlfriends was not fair.

WS: Talking to my boss about the affair is manipulative not wise.

WS: You are not allowed to talk to anybody about my relationship with the OW.

WS: You can't have access to my cell phone. It belongs to the bank and I am obliged to protect my customers financial information.

WS: Even married people have the right to a sphere of privacy.

WS: I can't rebuild my friendship with the OW's husband without us being friendly with her.

Lost, I am so sorry this is happening to you. You must feel like you are completely alone in the world.

What country/culture are you living in?

Your marriage counselor is right on the money. Your WH is now fully entrenched in the lifestyle of having two women. That three-month deadline means nothing. He will never change this unless he has good reason to change. What would make him want to change?
Mulan

Lost,

I am so sorry that you have to go thru this.

I really understand about the psychiatric problems, as I went thru all of this in my 20's whenever I went thru a bad breakup with a boyfriend. I was in the hospital for treatment 5x in a period of 5 years. All I can say is that you need to continue to work with your therapist and take care of YOU. I know how horribly desperate you must feel and nobody deserves that. Find a hobby, if you can find the time at all , that makes you happy. Something that you always wanted to do. The best thing that I did, back then, was get a job at the racetrack handling horses. Horses have always been my passion (animals in general, but esp horses and dogs), and I got a real sense of control learning to handle those large, athletic and somewhat wild racehorses! Eventually, I pulled out of it, went back to college, got pregnant (by accident but a good thing), and put everything into perspective again.

I do know now, that I have to watch myself for signs of this. I may be on an anti-D most of my life. My mother and aunts have almost all gone thru depression, mostly severe. I worry about my D14 all the time.

I HATE that this happens so much - infidelity, I mean. It is not something that is wrong with you. You have to keep telling yourself that.

I understand about not being able to handle the lies, etc..
I keep asking myself what I can put up with longterm. And what really is best for my kids. That is a tough one, I know!!! I held off on Plan B way too long because of my kids and also I did not think that I was strong enuf. My D14 said something to me tho, recently, that made me realize that she was getting the wrong lessons about self-respect, because I was putting up with too much!!!

Keep reading all that you can here. I lurked and seldom posted for a long time. It really helped. I have found MB to be one of my best resources and always (almost) here!

I am not an MB expert, by any means. I wanted you to know that you are not alone and not "messed up". He is the one that is making a big mistake.

jls

Mulan, ORCHID, bOB,

I am so thankful for all your input!

I live in a rural area of the Alps where men are men and women are, well, housewives. Nothing wrong with that, but I guess I just dared toput shoes on my barefoot feet and step into my profession and was accidently quite successful in quite a short time.
If a man would like to take lessons on how to totally devastate a capable attractive woman's psyche, he should just take lessons from my husband.

Am I allowed to b&c here? Moan about my pedicament?
Like many women, I have given up my career and financial independence and made my husband and childrne's needs my main focus. In addition to this I gave up my family for his, my circle of friends for his, my language, my culture, my tradtions... and I actually enjoyed a moderate degree of success. I didn't completely assimilate, but I integrated, and became a respected member of the family, our social circle, the community. Seemingly effortlessly it was,
says my best friend, that I re-entered my profession with passion and success, while still catering to my husband's needs (evidently NOT), nursing my now senile mother-in-law and raising two quite exceptional daughters.

Now I can hardly leave the house without a panic attack. My entire world seems to have caved in.

I think that I did not execute plan A as should have been done, but a move to plan B was a matter of survival. Just in the 2 months of plan B, I have gained back 15 of 20 lbs lost --- weight that I never needed to lose in the first place. I"ve published a book that had been long in the making, and I'm keeping my children and my mother-in-law above water... somehow. My panic attacks have reduced in frequency and intensity, buT I am lonely as hell.

It required such an effort to make a life here. It is hard to comprehend how my husband could toss those 19 years, all of his values, his family, his integrity, his closest friend, everything away for a rather vulgar, superficial woman.

We
used to do so many things together: sport, travel, culture...
all of his interests and values have changed. I feel I hardly know him anymore. did someone exchange his chip for the perfect husband to the perfect AH?

LT,

Here's my take on your H's babble:


Orchid: Most of us had a lot of good qualities which were squashed during the A. Time to bring 'em back to life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BS' fogese response: Oh, well if it wasn't directed to me, then who? The poor person you both really targeted because the backlash sure stings. Is that person still alive?


Orchid: Well with her kind of support the D lawyers must be doing brisk business. Does she get a cut for breaking up marriages and giving them business?


Orchid: So your work approves of people who can't be trusted t/b faithful to their families but they trust them with all the work responsibilities? What do you do again?


Orchid: Hm..... you are right.... you've given me every reason t/b.


Orchid: No reason? Ok, when would there be a good reason? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />



Orchid: Well her kind of 'generousity' my children and I can do without. That's like saying the pedofile likes to give candy to children.


Orchid: U were right to not let him evade or downplay the issue. Your children are not stupid and do not deserve t/b lied to. My son told me when he was six that 'children do NOT like t/b lied to.' Go figure.....out of the mouths of babes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: You are right, it w/b my fault for you showing them that you are disloyal and unfaithful. What else would you like me to show them about you?


Orchid: Life isn't fair. Do you think lying and conflict avoiding w/b fair? If yes, fair to whom?


Orchid: Again, life isn't fair but if you keep losing your clothes all over town, someone is bound to notice.


Orchid: C/b both ya know? ?!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: I'm not? Who w/b exacting the fine?


Orchid: Do your customers know you use the phone for an A also? Did the bank give you permission to conduct your A on their business phone?


Orchid: On which planet?


Orchid: Us? Friendly? I certainly don't need friends like that. Why do you?

See, you don't have to even make sense, just babble back enough to confuse the WS. Remember when he is acting like a WS, he is not your H. 2 different characters here......very frustrating to live with or around such a person.

L.

I wish I had discovered this site earlier... I have been reading, no, devouring everything on this site and this forum. It is giving me strength.

I now realize that I wasn't really doing Plan A, before. NOW I am... it's a seperated Plan A. I am hurting too much to do a Plan A while living with WS.

WS is not living at home, I don't cook his meals or do his laundry anymore, but I do see him on a daily basis when he comes to pick up the elder daughter for school, check in on his elderly mother, do repairs and maintenance (which he has been ignoring for the last 3 years during the A) or to bring me our car when I need it. I have been able to keep conversations friendly, but utilitarian, and definitely not about our marriage or the OW.

I've told him under no uncertain terms that the door is open and he wil be welcomed back with open arms once he and the OW no longer work together and he will agree to NC and commit to rebuilding our marriage.

Now, equipping myself with all the experience and knowledge here, I think I can use this space to work on myself, repairing the damage done to my soul, and taking control of my life. I was dancing circles doing everything to try and please him and get him to cut off contact with her, but the more I did, the more he seemed to just settle comfortably on his fence. There were also some new and rather worrisom changes, like a sudden interest for BDSM ... he wanted to be tied and "forced" to sleep with me... yuk. Believe me, I like sex and I'm not a prude, but that ain't me babe.

Is BDSM normal? Is a sudden interest in it common for a WS? That is not somewhere I want to go, even if WS becomes FWS and we recover our marriage. Somehow I think this must be a symptom.

Orchid, your babble made me laugh and feel a bit more distanced from WS idiotic comments. Thank you! I shall be prepared in the future... he is sure to say one or more of those things again; he repeats them like an endless mantra.

Maybe I missed it - what's going on with OW's husband and their marriage?

When you write, "After employing plan A unsuccessfully", does this mean you did not do it properly or that the affair did not end?
Just because the affair did not end does not mean you did it unsucessfully.

What do I do if he is still undecided when we reach his promised time limit for a decision in a month?
Don't expect him to reach a decision. (Actually, his lack of decision IS his decision).
If he ends the affair, then you can end Plan B.
That is what you told him in the Plan B letter and that is what you should stick to.
Mean what you say, say what you mean, else he cannot expect you do what you say.

The OW lives unmarried with her partner. He has never been faithful, one of those men that go on drinking sprees combined with one-night-stands. He slept with the OW's sister. He sees it on one side as her revenge and on the other is glad that he no longer needs to have a bad conscious for sleeping around. The OW and her partnet have two young children, one severely handicapped.

Needless to say, I avoid contact with either of them.

Chris,

My version of "Plan A" includes a year of serious suspicion with no proof and no admittance from my WS whilst trying to meet every EN... but having angry outburst and disrespectful judgments, suffering from depression and panic attacks...
My husband did not admitt his affair of 3 years until the end of November 2004. Not until then did I feel empowered to lay down a line. I asked him to move out a month later... at the end of December. That was a move of 10 yards away to our little guesthouse. That was by no means an improvement... still cooking and catering to his needs, more space to clean, continued laundry, sudden demand for BDSM sex, more freedom to secrecy and unaccountability for WS... need I continue? Of course he refuses to cut off contact with the OW and is equipped with excuses... like the OW husband got over it, why can't I? (see above thread about the OW's partner).

He says the affair is over,but they still work together, they still spend free time together. My husband still lies, even about stupid silly stuff to avoid confrontation and he is still secretive about his time, his cell phone, etc. etc. Just plain sneaky and devious behavior that was never his style before the A.

I thought you ended Plan B when the WS has not only ended the affair, but also gone NC with the OP?

February 24 I told WS -- no go. He's got to move further away. No laundry, no sex, no dinner, no breakfast in bed ... I tell him when I need the car, his babysitting services, repair or maintenance on the house --- he needs to check in advance when his visits with the children fit my and their schedule. I realize now, that we are in a separated Plan A, not Plan B. I am slowly recovering... sleeping a many as 6 hours per night, nearly back to normal weight, nearly normal attentiveness for my children and MIL, and slowly gaining productivity in my work (independently employed).

Were you doing an actual Plan A (meaning you were familiar with Plan A & MB) or you were doing stuff and now are calling that Plan A?
Either way, it was not Plan A.

He says the affair is over,but they still work together, they still spend free time together.
Then the affair is not over. They may not be doing horizontal bop anymore but the affair continues.

I thought you ended Plan B when the WS has not only ended the affair, but also gone NC with the OP?
Not really because you should be the one to mail the no-contact letter. If it is left solely up to the ws to do no-contact, usually they would prefer to go to the Bahamas for a week to end it.

Actually, when the affair ends is when you resume very limited contact & discuss what is needed for reconciliation. This is when there will be NO LB by you (selfish demands or angry outbursts).

When the affair ends, you discuss the no contact letter, him getting a new job away from ow (yes, this is pretty much essential), counseling, etc.
Try & put all this on his plate and expect him to do it all on his own before the affair ends is pretty unrealistic.

Chris,

I might eventually get my husband to return to marriage counseling if he recommits to the marriage, but I won't get him to read Surviving an Affair, fill out any questionaires, or send a NC letter. I will give our MC the book to read.

I have to concentrate on what I can do, set limits to what I will accept, take back control of MY life.
... I can't control my husband, but I will not let him move back in until he is ready to commit 100% and has either moved to another job or transfered the OW to another bank branch and gives me unlimited access to his cell phone.

but I won't get him to read Surviving an Affair
Probably not. I don’t believe it’s necessary.

fill out any questionaires, or send a NC letter.
This is all part of the negotiations (using the POJA) when in recovery.

I can't control my husband, but I will not let him move back in until he is ready to commit 100%
If he’s ready to commit 100%, then he will want to fill out the questionnaires & do a no-contact letter.

and has either moved to another job or transfered the OW to another bank branch and gives me unlimited access to his cell phone.
Yes, that is something that should be non-negotiable.
Too many people end Plan B without this and end up regretting it & getting hurt again.

Chris,

The part about my H most likely not wanting to fill out questionaires or do a NC letter is partly a cultural thing. I don't see the lack of the questionaire as a big deal, since if he commits 100% I assume that he will be willing to visit the marriage counselor with me and we should be able to define our emotional needs for each other clearly.

Sure, I'd like a NC letter, but a job change for a European is quite a bit different than for an American. People are very deeply rooted here. They don't just sell their house and relocate for a new job. They also do not change jobs as readily as Americans do either. If he or the OW relocate, I will definitely see that together with the promise for NC as adequate compensation... but as you say, non-negotiable. That is a prerequisite for negotiation before he moves back in.

First off I am so very pleased to see you dealing aggessively with getting the anxiety under control so good for you....

let me say this lostin...in the few posts you have posted about you...here are some really strong qualities that you possess and you need to draw strength from and...

from your few posts I know (without knowing you) you are...

1. strong enough to face your anxiety fears and smart enough to seek assistance...anxiety and fear is the one thing can stagnate anyone to the core....and the nature of the beast itself is it's strong power to not seek help and control..
and you my friend are working on it....

2 I know you are smart and capable enough to pursue a career that empowers you....fullfills you and STILL be a great mom and FULLTIME primary care taker....

3. I know you are smart enough to see the great irony and contradiction in your husbands weak attacks at your own career....as he himself has hooked up with WOMAN THAT WORKS!!
kind of deflates his whole 'attack' on your career....for if working diminishes YOUR "value" surely the OW that works is equally diminished....so one who is logical would conclude....don't get sucked in to his irrational thinking
don't fall victim to his selective accusation of what is un-noble in you is somehow 'noble' in the OW...oh the irony!!

Use this knowledge to empower you
use this knowledge to learn to babble back at his weak attacks....

He'd ride his bike to work with the OW, plan his free time with her, rather than me, go on outings with her kids and our kids. He'd even invite the OW and her husband over for dinner!!!

I also know that your husband is capable of acting out gross violations of disrespect and unprotective behavior...

I also think that your husbands choice to be involved with a woman who is your child's godmother...still married...with whom he is friends with OW husband...and that the OW's husband is foul enough to believe that an 'open' marriage is a good thing.....speaks volumes about his choices and the person he is choosing to be...

easy it is to have an affair with a woman whose husband allows it...
easy it is to be involved with someone who so readily diminishes the importance of respect and cherishing....

this is a safe affair...for there are probably no real plans for them to ever be together...

blessed and graced are you that you have the opportunity to show in action and word to all these knuckle heads...what real honor is.....
and to not ever diminish in your childrens lives the importance of these things...even when surrounded by other adults that can so...

so blessed are to not be sucked in that you should celebrate that part of you each and every day....
never are you to be ashamed for not dropping your values in the face of such an attack...

Here's my concerns about you....
and here's what I think you should do...

I believe you should do Plan A....
I believe that your Plan A should show a strong confident woman who is changing and growing ....and not some one who is succumbing to anxiety and fear....

BUT
I think you need plan A with a twist....

I think that you need to look at how much you have bent and flexed to be in a spot where he knows exactly where you are and doing and HOW you are doing...

I think you need to become a little less available
a little less his manager in keeping him abreast and updated on the childrens activities...

I think you need to pull yourself back and add a little mystery and doubt in to his world...

I think it's time for Mr. husband...to reap a little of what he has sown...

the whole time...plan Aing and being sweeter and happier than ever...

I've said it a thousand times here...
if you want to get someones attention... whisper....

So if he's calling
YOU end the conversation...
pick up the phone....
be happy and be pleasant....but cut him short and..."shoot darling..you say breathlessly....I would LOVE to talk but I'm right in the middle of something...call me later OK love...good bye..."

Fill your home with serenity and warmth....if you know he is coming over....cook something he loves and have the house smelling great....and then surprise him by saying...

"wow glad you are here...kids are out back...and since you are here..I'm gonna run out for a while...be back before you leave...tooody loo...."

I think you need to create the exact opposite of sitting there pining and focusing on him...

I think you should establish a night where he gets the children....and you get involved with something that excites you...that you meet new people...and totally excludes him.....
that you divulge little info...

I think you ask him questions about places of travel and drop seeds that you thinking of taking a trip...and doesn't he think that this spot or that spot would be lovely....

and offer no more info....

You can be flirty
you CAN be happy he's there...
but a little distracted
hum a little tune ....

ask him if he's ever heard that new song by _________ and tell him a "friend" and i mean use the word "friend" played some of their music for you and you liked it.....and was wondering if he had heard of them...

tell him that on this day you CAN NOT take of MIL and he NEEDS to it...cause you have a day trip planned and just won't be available....

invite him somewhere to meet you with the children....and have a blast the whole time he is there...but YOU cut it short with him.....
tell him you and the children made plans to go here or there...and leave him standing there while you and kids head off for the next adventure....perhaps an overnight at some fun spot.....

go to the bank..looking smashing...drop off a coffee or a sweet treat...but tell him you were in the area meeting someone ...and I do mean someone...but you thought since you were there you would drop this off for him...better yet drop it off and leave it with his secretary.....
smile and say....could you see that HE gets this...

leave out pamphlets of a upcoming play or concert or art thingy...something you and he may or may not have done together.....and if questioned.and ONLY if questioned say ..oh was thinking of going.....haven't commited yet though wink wink...

plan A with a vengence
and plan A with yourself...the strong happy woman that you are and deserve to be...

ARK^^