I do believe I see exactly what you mean. Thanks for sharing that.

Froz

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

... including yourowngoodself !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ditto! I agree.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

Yup...ESPECIALLY that. The pieces are finally falling into place for me, and I have you to thank, in part, for helping!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NOW

NOW, that was an absolutely great post. Thank you for sharing your story I've never been in a position like that so I can't really relate to having a FOP as a constant presence in my life. I sure don't envy you but am glad that you've found some peace with it.

I'm very eager to discuss the 'intentions' aspect of this issue. Probably more than anyone else I know, I'm a great example of 'good intentions gone wrong'. Largely, it's the story of my life. Also I've had enough life experience, particularily through non-profit/volonteer experiences to know that when you get a group of people bound together by their 'good intentions' you get an inherently volitile situation.

Hence the TOS and reference to Harley principles. My point, my main point, and the point that I keep coming back to is that regardless of intent, disrespectful judgements and antagonistic behaviour creates counter-productive conflict.

If, for example, you'd mounted and maintained a campaign of harassment against your FOP... if you'd shouted derisive slurs over the fence... if you'd recruited some of your friends to join you in your campaign against him... would you be enjoying the same peace? Your intent might be simply to make it plain to him that you don't want him to approach you anymore, your intent might be to drive him out of the neighbourhood... who knows? But it's the actions you take in relation to your intent that are going to have the effect.

He has no idea of your intent. And you have no idea of his. What creates the situation you are in is actions and reactions.

My stance is that we should keep our posts respectful, regardless of intent. We are all individuals with our own intentions and perceptions. Each one of us has value to add to these boards, Mel, Pep, you, me, Bob... each one of us has a unique position that is worthy of being shared. My stance is that, as MBers, and having previously agreed to behave according to a certain code of conduct, we should simply keep our posts respectful.

John

Dewt, I understand what you are saying, and I agree. The problem is, there have been times that I have posted in a manner that I believed was respectful, non-judgemental, or what have you....and it has been perceived as something other than that. Do you see the dilemma here? Communicating using the written word alone is very difficult for even the most talented writer, because they have no control over what other people are thinking. A lot of people have great difficulty accurately expressing themselves, and then on top of that, you have the reader's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate!
Regarding yesterday, I am assuming you were referring to my joking around yesterday as "childish threadjacking games". Now you correct me if I'm wrong, ok? Meanwhile, I'll assume that is how you perceived what I was writing.
I was trying to "lighten the mood". I did not treat anyone with disrespect. There were some posters who percieved it one way, and others who perceived it another way.
WHO IS CORRECT?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

NOW

I tend to believe that it is, rather, personal interpretations of actions and reactions that create the situation.

not ONLY words:

Thank you for interjecting that.
This is getting to the heart of the dilemma.

You are sooooo right. I agree with you!

Man, there have been so many people "misinterpret" what I REALLY intended.....its not even funny!

SO:
Who gets to have the monopoly on what a DJ or inappropriate comment is? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Through who's "lens" are we to filter Every Post and every Thread? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I know I tend to trust my OWN judgement moreso then "whoever" happens to be on the other End of a Message Board.
[Still think your some mighty fine folks though] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

dewt:

First, I believe I "get" your main point...
(Don't attack any posters and make them uncomfortable and thereby chase them away).
Close at least?

Next:
In almost all of your posts, you consistently keep referring to DJs.

Indeed, I truly believe (that for the most part)......there is agreement that this practice should be kept to a minimum.
(although can't get rid of entirely, cause there is a lot of pain out there) and like it or not it will Come out from time to time.

Regardless, this is where [IMO] the Disconnect is arising.

Apparently what You (dewt) consider a DJ, Differs from what Others think they are.

So WHO gets to decide the definition?

You keep claiming posters are giving You Multiple DJ's.

But thats your view [I doubt they see it that way].

For the most part, what I see are posters posting [color:"blue"]styles [/color] that you don't agree with (straight, firm, direct) as being somehow a DJ.

To them its simply good practical advice.....yet your perceiving it as DJ's.

[color:"blue"]This is a perception issue! [/color]

Unfortunately, there is Little chance of your "debating" changing someone else's Life Experiences.

What is MORE likely to happen, is since (just like YOU) They "believe" they are Right.......they are going to try to change your "perspective" ....in the same way your attempting to influence theirs.

Hence the round and round and round!

This is why these talks go on from Thread to thread ......because there is NO Final Answer.

IMO All your going to do is continue to be frustrated should you continue to pursue this angle.
But of course, feel free if you wish......that is your Right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This may not be intellectual enough for your taste.....but then that's why I'm me & Your You. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

GO Enjoy You and your weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dewt....

a few things

1. I did make an what I thought was an intelligent contribution to the discussion, which you totally ignored. I told you what my process is for posting to either WS or BS. No comment what-so-ever from you about my post. And, that's OK. But I DID contribute to the discussion at hand.

2. sillyness amongst us girls here on your very own thread

at first I could not figure out ~why~ this would upset you

then, I became aware of what I think is probably the reason you think us girls fooling around and joking is some sort of a disrespectful behavior toward you or your topic (which it is not)

here is what I think is the reason (correct me if I am wrong please)

YOU are not spending much time in the company of *really happy females*

females who are REALLY happy and enjoying life and themselves .... well, we joke and laugh, mostly at our own expense, but not always

this was/is the case here .... we were teasing each other

which, in happy-female-land is fun and enjoyable bonding

it was not about you, has nothing to do with you or the topic

this behavior is a stress reliever and also a balm for pain at times

adult women with few insecurities about themselves and no particular ax to grind often engage in this teasing silly way

it's a girl thing Dewt

and more particularly

a happy girl thing

Lots of hugs to you Dewt

I hope you can experience yourowngoodself the joys of watching happy women being silly with each other just for the hayul of it .... and not automatically think it is about you

coz it's not

it's female bonding at it's finest

and the fact that we did this on YOUR thread, is actually a compliment to you Dewt

we feel comfortable with ourselves enough to joke and play around you

~~~~~~~~

back to point #1

I did contribute to the discussion at hand and was ignored by you ... ~and~ most importantly .... I did NOT take this as an insult by you toward myself because I am happy and self-assured and if you felt no need to comment on my comment ~~~ that's perfectly FINE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You know I have been racking my brain trying to see how anything on this thread was abusive, sick or disrespecful, except the one paragrah which I quoted.

Well I did think the thread about the car scene with Mel, was a little bit DJ'y but since Mel didn't even take offense and came right back with a great response, I decided it was okay.

So I am very glad to know I am not the only one who couldn't see the DJ's.

I agree with Pep, it is nice when people joke around on your thread. To me, it lightens the mood and encourages others to jump in.

Yep, it certainly is all about perception.

NOW, I love this!!! Discussion! Thank you so much...

The problem is, there have been times that I have posted in a manner that I believed was respectful, non-judgemental, or what have you....and it has been perceived as something other than that. Do you see the dilemma here?

I too have done this. Recently too. My tone was a direct smack in the face to Bob, whereas my intent was an acknowledgement of a great point he made. Someone called me on it, I reread, and edited my post to make my intent clear.

I absolutely see the dilemma. I really feel that I've tried to circumvent it by asking that we not naming names or target any specific poster but rather approach this from an issue oriented approach. Perhaps the dilemma is inherent in the issue.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as us all acknowledging that we are human beings with feelings and make mistakes, and we will try to do better in the future.

I also think that there's a line at which the dilemma becomes far less ambiguous. To be sure it would be insane to expect us to exhibit perfect behaviour. If we were capable of that, none of us would be likely here in the first place, BS and WS both. That being said, we're here because we've been devastated by the issue of selfish insensitivity in general and I don't think it's unreasonable to encourage better behaviour than that.

Isn't that why we post to others in the first place? To encourage better behaviour? To support each other through these horrible times?

It may be a hazy uncertain line, which separates the dilemma from the obvious, but do we not, after having agreed to the TOS and presented ourselves as advocates of the MB principles have a basic responsibility to stay as far away from that line as we can?

Communicating using the written word alone is very difficult for even the most talented writer, because they have no control over what other people are thinking. A lot of people have great difficulty accurately expressing themselves, and then on top of that, you have the reader's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate!

Very good point. However, it does have certain advantages.

I can stop and think for as long as I want at any point in my sentence. For example, just now, I made myself a coffee, looked out the window and tried to think of exactly how I wanted to phrase this to you.

After typing out and deleting a couple of different things, I edited it all out because my point had already been made.

As for the readers interpretation, you could easily say the same about speech. When speaking though, you don't have a 'preview reply' option to employ before delivering your contribution to the conversation. Obviously we do not control how others interpret what we say, but we DO have influence.

It's the fundemental challenge of communication. To hear and be heard. To share view points and come to a better understanding of each others perspective. Shoving your perspective down someone's throat is not an effective way of sharing. It's counter-productive. Insulting or intimidating or verbally slapping someone is not likely to get them to open up to you.

I have to admit that I have trouble relating to the writing thing. I write WAY better than I speak. Particularily when it comes to emotional issues. An emotional conversation IRL usually goes to fast for me to come up with a way to effeciently express my view point. While I'm frantically trying to keep up with my own thoughts, I usually miss half of what the other person is trying to tell me. When I'm writing, I can go back and read, and reread, and quote references when needed. IRL, I can barely remember my own name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


I was not referring to you specifically. I'd have to go back and reread in order to provide specifics...

Which I just did (ahhh, the joys of the written word) and yep, I definitely took offense at that.

I had posted:
And a half an hour later, you posted:
And then proceed to ask about digital weight scales. And the next dozen posts or so (with the exception of one from ML) are clearly not in any way shape or form related to the thread subject matter. In fact until your last post, all your other posts within the context of the above statement, had the apparent intent to make me feel worse than the put-downs or bashing that I've been taking.


Well, who is correct about what?

Whether you were disrespectful or not?

Or whether you were trying to 'lighten the mood' or not?

I cannot answer as to whether you were truly trying to 'lighten the mood' or trying to make me feel alienated. Those are your motivations and only you can truly say. I can only guess at your intent... make assumptions based on what you say and in what context you say it. If I'm unclear, I can always ask. And then I can choose how I'm going to react to it.

In this case, and especially after reviewing the series of posts we're specifically discussing, it still seem to me that your intent was pretty clear. I haven't felt the need to ask if my assumption is correct.

How I'm responding to it is by honestly and respectfully pointing out that I felt your behaviour was disrespectful towards me and others who might want to take part in this conversation but don't want to enter a flamewar.

If indeed my assumption was incorrect, well please feel free to correct me. I make assumptions all the time. It helps me survive day to day. Acknowledging that, I also acknowledge that oftimes I make false assumptions and so I'm careful to keep my perceptions under constant re-evaluation.

dewt

*sigh*. Not since I dated a vegetarian hippy chick at college have I seen such flogging of a dead conversational horse as in this thread.

I'm done. Enjoy, everyone, i'm off to sit in the sunshine with my kids and my painful knee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dewt

I'll just be straight with you about something I think is an issue, and yet as far as I can tell, has never been discussed

I cannot imagine refering to myself as "soul loss" and then expect myself to ever become whole and healed

humor is a tonic for the soul

humorless is something I never have understood

I wonder what the self-message can be for a person who calls herself "soul loss"

I wonder ~how~ can this be a self loving message?

it feels like self-loathing to me whenever I read it

and no matter what insult anyone would/could throw at someone self-proclaimed as "soul loss" .... I cannot imagine anything could hurt as much as calling herself THAT !

I think it is slapping herself across the face

and naming herself "soul loss" may be a self fulfilling prophecy of self-loathing .... and this becomes a filter whereby all remarks are colored this way

just a thought I've been wanting to toss out there ... because it saddens me to see someone hurt themselves for no apparent reason that makes sense to THIS happy grown up woman

see Dewt .... the most insulting messages of all ~ are the ugly ones we throw at ourselves !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dewt,

Why does my intent with my posts make any difference to you?

Thanks, Top Rope, for popping in with your intellectual reply.


I'd like to consider this closed. I'd say it's expanded over the course of these two threads to a general 'treat everyone, new and old, BS and WS alike, with basic human respect', but I think that in theory no one will contest this.

I don't think this is about a monopoly on what is acceptable or not. Or even what constitutes a DJ. I'm the king of being misinterpreted, particularily IRL... as I wrote in my last post. I think there's a line. I think it's a hazy line, and subect to much interpretation. But it's still there. The administration defines this line in theory, and we, as posters define this line in practice.

As for where the line is, I'm a big proponent of refering back to the Harly principles. In this case, the pages on Lovebusters, Selfish demands and Disrespectful judgements. I don't have time to offer links right now, but they're there and pretty darn specific in defining disrespectful judgements and determining when it's happening.


Not at all. I appreciate and aspire to the straightness and directness that many posters here seem to have naturally. Firmness and confidence are character traits that I admire and wish I had more of. What I dislike is aggressiveness and disrespect. I get upset when people who try to hurt other people with words or actions and use that firmness and directness as a tool for causing pain.

And I'm really not frustrated, because as it turns out, we're having a discussion. My perceptions, understandings and knowledge is growing and I'm enjoying the process.

Pep,


My apologies. I don't even have to go back and reread because I remember that post.

Since the topic of posting styles has come up, I'd like to take the opportunity to bring up a post you made to me last year about this time. It was on one of my dewt fessing up threads and you blasted me a good one. You were honest, direct, firm and totally right. I reeled after reading your post, got angry, sad, hurt, and then I sulked. However, I came back and answered you. You were of course, totally right. And as upset as I was, and as difficult as it was to hear your words, there were no DJs in it. Nothing that was a personal attack. I didn't have to filter through anything to get your message. I dunno if I thanked you then, but in the context of this conversation and to help make my point, I would like to re-thank you now.


Ya well, I guess I am maybe just a little neurotic about that, eh Pep? Maybe I'm just upset that you didn't invite me to fool around with you gals.

Dewt

You don't need an invitation to have fun and act like a fool ... just guts and desire to relax and not take yourself (or me) so dayum serious

life is HARD enuff Dew

when you are as old as I am

you know your days are numbered

and you make up your mind to make hay while the sun shines

coz THAT

in my opinion is why God gave us the daises and the puppies and the butterflies and childrens necks

to enjoy

not to mope about and feel sorry for ourselves coz we ain't got what the other one's got

we have all we need right now to enjoy life ... right now!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh jeez... since a funny has been made, we should explain the reference, shouldn't we?

For those that don't know my story the real quick version is that, last year, my wife developed and had an affair with our female roommate. The whole thing happened right in front of me until it was too painful to continue living there and my son and I had to leave the family home.

dewt

dewt,

I will again mention to you that I was the poster who was called out on the original thread for being "condescending and too harsh" but so far no one, including you, has expressed agreement or pointed out HOW when I specifically asked for help to recognize that and learn from it.

By your own admission early on in these threads (I forget which one because now we have a SECOND thread on "How to Post to a WS") you hadn't read the specific thread or post that JM's thread was addressing. Instead of a direct response to a direct request from a FBS to help me evaluate MY words so that I could progress in HOW I posted to a WS, the subject was turned into addressing all BS's in a general way (for the benefit of all WS's) instead of addressing this one FBS's response for the benefit of this one FBS.

I think it's ironic that this second thread doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything more than the first thread did, and the original advice that was ASKED FOR and WELCOMED--no matter how "brutally honest" it would be--has only been addressed by ONE person. That ONE person is a FBS. Ironic, huh?

Hey LB,

I'm sorry that I can't comment on that issue. I really still haven't read the original thread that Jimmy refered to. So I really can't say.

Having been posted to by you before, and seen how hard you tried (with me) to not be offensive, I would hazard a guess that your post was ok. If it wasn't, surely Jimmy, or someone, would have taken the time to answer your question. No?

And if nothing else, on this second thread, there seems to be a general consensus that we should, in general, treat each other with respect. That in itself is something.

dewt