This topic has been raised repeatedly, with consistently disastrous results. Why? Usually because the topic is triggered by a particular poster's (or group of posters) approach and the actual issues are mixed in and intermingled with complex personal dynamic. It becomes a conflict of online personalities instead of an honest discussion about a specific issue.

Having been through it yet again, with the same results, I'm getting sick of the same old, same old and would like to try something new.

I'd like to have this discussion rationally and without personal attacks taking place. Everybody should feel free to weigh in their opinion and present their argument, and rebuff the arguments of others. All this should be done with respect to each others and a concentrated effort to keep the issues themselves as the subject of our posts. I really don't know if this will fly, but what the heck, it's worth a try.

Here, in a nutshell is the basis for my argument.

1.)That WS come to this forum for a great variety of reasons.

2.)Often enough, there is still some 'Fog', or the person is otherwise still not 'getting it', even if they have ended the affair and want to save their marriage.

3.)How we treat these people is going to affect them.

4.)As members or proponents of the MB system and the Harley principles, we agree that they have merit and (ideally) we make a basic commitment to adopt them into our habits when posting.

5.) I believe that we have a moral responsibility to not harm others. If we do post, it should be with the intent to do good, not just unload some of our own hurt.

6.) Over the years I've seen a general increase of 'gratuitous sniping' and 'disrespectful judgements' and I think it's harmful. I feel I owe MB and it's ideals a debt of gratitude and it hurts me to see people disrespectfully treated here.

The purpose of this thread is not to attempt to control any specific persons behaviour. The purpose of this thread is not to even discuss any specific persons behaviour, so please respect that and make your arguments without examples.

The purpose of this thread is to tackle an issue that keeps popping up, and tackle it in a civilized manner once and for all.

Any takers?

John

Well Dewt, I see nothing "new" here. This is the same argument that has been hashed to death on JimmyMac's thread. What is "disasterous" is not a specific poster[s], but the attempt to control others. It almost always leads to a brawl. I guess we learned nothing at all from that thread.

I believe that folks should post in the way they see fit, as their own judgment and experience dictate, to BS and WS alike. Within the guidelines of TOS. And others should respect and tolerate various posting styles. That is what makes this forum so wonderful, because folks can get a variety of opinions/approaches.

If, however, a poster violates the TOS of this forum, it is real simple to hit the "notify moderator" button at the bottom of the page. Let the mods be the board police here, that is their job.

Dewt,

I stopped posting, for a time, because some of the comments or replies to me were very hurtful. I came to MB because I, as a BS, chose not to reveal my H's A to friends and family. This was my outlet, my "safe haven" to cry, vent, understand, and be understood. My H began posting here, as well, and we have learned and grown a great deal.

After awhile, MB no longer felt safe for me. It was actually impeding my progress and my healing because it took energy spent on healing from others' comments away from energy that could have been better spent on healing from the pain I was already in. A's are painful. The people who come here are in pain. They are not typically looking for a social club, nor are they looking to be judged or condemned for their actions. They are most likely seeking help. I, for one, hope they receive it - whether they are a BS, a FWS, or a foggy WS at the beginning point in their journey, looking for answers.

Various posters have various styles of delivering information, advice, or direction to others. Some see the best approach as being direct, "in your face", and offer what they feel is a reality check, while some others believe that a gentler approach is more effective. Who really knows what words it may be that will really reach someone? Maybe it is a combination of all of these styles...so that the new poster may sift through them and choose those replies which to address and those which to disregard.

What I do know is this...I have been hurt, and I have seen many others hurt by some of the comments made here to people who are in incredible pain. I have seen WS's literally run right off this forum. I thank God that my FWS was not one of those. I am thankful that he was one of the ones who received help from others instead of personal attacks and judgements so that he could grow from his experiences here instead of being judged or attacked for his choices. I'm grateful his skin is thick enough to handle the times when he was judged or attacked. I am glad that he has received both gentle understanding, and cold hard doses of reality.

I have also seen BS's run off this board, because like me - they just simply couldn't take another heaping dose of pain piled on top of the pain they were already experiencing.

I hope that I can help someone with what I have learned. I hope that I can continue to grow and learn so that I may share that with others who are in that bleakest of places or backed into a corner. I hope that every time I post to someone, I can think hard about my intent behind it. Am I responding to this person because what they posted is a touchy subject for me and it stirs some negative feelings in me? What is the motive behind my post? Did they just anger me? Is that why I'm responding, or am I responding because I think I hold some experience or information that may actually help them? Am I delivering it to them in a way that isn't hurtful, judgmental, or uncaring so that they may be open to receiving what it is I want to share with them? These are questions I will ask myself each time I post. I would really hate to know that I impeded someone else's personal growth in the quest for my own.

Frozen, I feel badly that you had such a hard time. It grieves me to see a very wounded BS attacked. I am glad you made your way back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the argument was opened in Jimmy's thread, as it's been opened many times before. However, the brawl that ensued made it very difficult at time to even decipher what was being discussed. My hope is that we can try again, but this time actually have and complete the discussion without it turning into a series of attacks.

You said,
Here I'm trying to find your contribution to this thread. Is this your main point?

If you have a concern about the nature of this thread being 'controlling', I invite you to share your perspective and we can add that to our discussion.

I just want to be sure of what you are saying before I ramble off a reply. (I did learn at least one thing on that last thread)

Frozen, thank you for sharing your experience. It's a good example of why I started this thread. I originally came her as a WS in 1999 and MB made a huge, positive difference in my life. Had I come here now, as a WS, MB would never have had a chance to make a difference. I'd have been run off right quick.

I appreciate you thinking carefully before you post, and filtering your thoughts based on intent. I guess that's part of what I'm advocating in my stance.

John

Dewt, I just did "share my perspective," that this thread is yet another manipulative attempt to control others. This meets my definition of insanity, making the same mistake over and over again but expecting a different result. The brawl on JM's thread was a direct result of this very thing, trying to control others. It failed on JimmyMac's thread and is likely to meet the same fate here.

I realize you were here close to the start of this forum when there were much less people so it was likely more cozy and personable. I wonder if what you are seeing isn't simply a natural result of a growing and diverse population? I don't see this monstrous negative change that you do and I have also been here for years. I think the trick is to take the good and leave the bad. There will always be attitudes and comments that we don't like, it's not reasonable - or sane - to expect that a group of diverse people will always perform to our own personal standards.

I view this thread as an attempt to change/alter the behavior of others to accomodate your personal nostalgic "vision" of the board, Dewt. Would it be reasonable for others to expect you to change your behavior to accomodate their vision? I assert that is not reasonable at all. Nor is it realistic to believe that one, outside of the mods, can effect such a change. One can certainly try, but I fear disappointment will be their lot.

Dewt

Occasionally posters hurt other posters with their words.
Sometimes it sdeliberate ( as with BT and her attacks on me)
Mostly it is a strongly positioned divergent perspective be offered.
As Archuletan pointed out on the other thread this is an unusual site where most posters are either in or recovering from the most traumatic experience of their lives.

Dewt you cannot legislate for hurt people responding. You can only legislate for people deliberately hurting others.
This is already well covered in site Tee's and Cees and in Steve Harley's introduction in the 'announcements' section.

The original WS in this line of debate was called a 'scumbag' by a hurting, triggered FBS. You and others seem to be indicating that it is the general practice of FBS & BS on this site to greet new WS in that way ! Even the WS himself didn't take offence.

Yes even lifers sometimes overstep the mark (Such as Pep & Susan with BT yesterday IMO - sorry gals)

I really don't see what else you want dewt. Less understanding moderators perhaps ?

My apologies.

Please carry on...
This horse is dead.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't apologise to me - I thought it was hilarious ! Just unfair, and pobably against teh rules of the site like most great humour ! I wish I'd've dared to do it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Bob said:
Bob ... my only objection here is being refered to as a "lifer" >snort<

Dewt ---> How I respond to a given WS reflects what I would have liked someone else to have said to my H when HE was in similar shoes. And this is true whether the WS is fresh new, or already out of the fog or whatever.

I think of my H at that stage, and speak what my H needed to hear during that part of his crisis. So THAT is what guides me.

And ---> what I say to a BS is what I would have liked someone else to say to me when I was in similar shoes.

So, there you go.

My rules for myself, which I have no desire to require from you or anyone else.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bob, most of what Suz and I said to each other was in reference to our belief that she and I are going to hayul ... Suz thinks she is going to be delivered there in a "handbasket" ... I suspect I will be FedEx'ed overnight !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok. I get it. Now, I will not discount your statement out of hand, BUT I remain unconvinced. Please explain to me exactly HOW you think it is a manipulative attempt to control others.

I will gladly admit that I have hopes that facing this topic will influence people to examine their motives and posting habits. Beyond that, people make their own decisions. But I view that as completely different from 'controlling' behaviours.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your point.

This thread may very well meet the same fate as the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. I'm hoping that anyone posting to this thread will keep my original requests in mind; that we discuss this as civilized, rational adults WITHOUT turning it into a flame war.


I've wondered that myself. And it may very well be the case, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't there, or that we should just ignore it. Not only that but there's also the fact that though the membership base is very broad, there is still a core group of regular posters and I believe we have a moral responsibility to at the very least avoid causing more damage with counter-productive remarks.

And I've done some very careful thinking about what 'my' personal standards are. And indeed they are very high. High enough that I can't even say I live up to them. However, this thread, my argument, is not based on what MY standards are. My whole argument is based entirely on Harley material, with a solid back up straight from scripture (if you want to debate on those grounds).

Anyway, hey... who am I to say? If you feel that this thread, or this topic sets unreasonable standards, please feel free to make a case for it.

Bob, thanks for weighing in on this. I'm very much hoping that we can avoid mentioning specific posters. I really want to avoid emotional reactions to posts as opposed to civilized discussion. I'm hoping that a strategy of keeping arguments non-personal will help avoid escalating tensions. Not only that, but this thread is really and truly not about that other thread. I stillllll haven't read the thread that started it all.

I am not advocating legislating anything. As far as I know, there's already a TOS that legislates behaviour to an extent deemed acceptable by the admin and mods of this site. I'm not here to contest that or advocate any alterations. If anything, I would argue that we should take the spirit of the TOS and Harley principles more to heart. Use them with each other, not just with out spouses. And not based on right or wrong, truth or untruth, but even based simply on effectiveness, they have merit.

What I'm advocating is a general awareness and sense of communal responsibility. And I advocate it, I don't seek to impose it. We do have a high concentration of hurting people and to be honest, it's great that we are as tolerant as we are. I just think we could do better. I'm not even saying I'm right about this... I'm presenting for discussion and hoping that we can tumble it over as a community.

In a nutshell, what I want is for us all to become aware of this issue. Become aware that what we post is going to affect somebody. I want to promote a community that comes together (with all it's different styles and angles) to help and heal, not hurt.

That might be a bit overly romantic to some, and perhaps unrealistic. I still think it's a topic worthy. If even one person slows down enough to think more caringly before posting, if even one person is not driven off or discouraged (especially when they are 'fresh') and stays to hear the truths and all the good advice and support, then I'll be happy enough and consider all this typing worth the effort.

John

Dewt, telling others how to behave very much is an attempt to manipulate and control their behavior, whether you understand the definition of controlling behavior or not. That is the definition of controlling whether you accept it or not. Most controllers don't believe they are controlling, they are just trying to help others see the error of their ways - all for a good cause, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


And to attempt to persuade others to behave in a way that is suitable to you is controlling behavior. It presumes that you are in a position to influence them in the first place. You are not. You are only in a position to "influence" your behavior and to think otherwise is arrogant. You can only control yourself and not others.

If someone is acting out of line, it is up to the MODS to correct their behavior, not you. It is up to the MODS to determine if someone is acting in the "spirit" of Harley's principles.


We are all civilized, rational adults here, but it is not rational to expect that you can make the same mistake over and over again and expect a different result. It is incredibly disrespectful and arrogant to expect that you can tell others how to behave and not expect a flame war. It is the inevitable, predictable result of controlling behavior as we saw very clearly on JM's thread.


What it means is that you must accept that you cannot control others on this board. That is an unrealistic expectation that will never bear fruit, only disappointment and resentment. I would suggest that if folks spent more time improving themselves instead of busily scrutinizing the behavior of others, that the world would be a better place. It always comes back to this simple, but very true message: I can't control others, I can only control myself.

Here's my suggestion.

Disclaimer: I have not read past the openning post on this thread, so forgive me if I seem to have "missed" something.

I suggest that a recovered, FWS, create a parallel for WSs to my Quick Start Guidelines for BSs (linked below). I'd do it myself, but I don't think it would have the credibility that one created by a FWS would.

FWIW, when I wrote this (years ago now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) I first shared drafts of it with both current and recovered BSs and FWSs. I got a lot of good feedback and made many changes, additions, and deletions as a result before posting it for the first time. As you can see, I've updated it since the first "final" post.

I'm not soooooo naive to expect that an attempt at such a parallel guideline would not be without some emotional disagreements. But the FWS taking the initiative to write it has the license to make it whatever they want. As with my BS version, anybody can post to it offering their insights and/or suggestions and/or disagreements.

Melody, I'm still having trouble adjusting to your perspective. I'm getting the impression that you think I'm controlling. All I'm trying to do is advocate the principles on this site.

I am still not willing to discount your accusation that I'm 'controlling' but you are going to have to really give me some specific examples of me specifically trying to control someone.

Addressing the specific purpose of this thread and the issues I've raised would be appreciated too.

Furthermore, I'm in every position to influence. And that is part of my motivation in raising this issue. We are all in position to influence. In my opinion, with that power comes a responsibility. It's not as simple as expecting the mods to intervene on every issue. There's simply too much traffic here. What I'm talking about here is a global sense of responsibility. Honor the spirit of the law, not just get away with whatever you can within the law.


If you think I'm being arrogant and disrespectful, feel free to notify the mods. Apart from that I'm trying to have a discussion here and I don't feel that you are respecting the boundries I set when I opened this thread.

I am honestly trying to communicate here, Melody and I would love to have an actual discussion with you. Why are you so resistant? Do you feel that I've posted this topic as a specific attack against you? If so, I must assure you that is not the case.

So, for the sake of this discussion, and for the sake of moving forward, let us accept as a foundational fact that I cannot control anybody. We don't have to pound this into the ground, I agree.

Now, how about abiding by the spirit of the Harley principles, and the spirit of the TOS. How do you feel about that?

Should we, as individuals within a community make an effort to work those spirits into our individual posting styles? Or should we post without thought of the consequences? Saying whatever we want, however we want as long as the mods don't pick it up?

John

My imaginary conversation with Melody on a long trip by car:

JM: Could you pull over at the next gas station?
ML: Oh, I see you. NOW, you want to tell me how to drive.
JM: But, really, I need you to pull over for a minute...
ML: Another attempt at controlling behavior. You can't control me, you can't control anyone. You can't give it up, can you?
JM: But, Melody...
ML: Go call the police--I might respond to them...they are the only people with authority to control how I drive, or how anyone drives, for that matter. You have no right to offer suggestions to me or anyone, for that matter...
JM: Gee, I've got to go to the bathroom...
ML: See, it is all about *YOU* *YOU* YOU*. You are so self centered and egotistical. The world doesn't revolve around you, you know
JM: But, if you don't stop, then I might...
ML: There you go again...threatenting with what "might" happen. You are a control freak, you Nazi...

And, so it goes on.

Usually only the moderators are called Nazis.

Same topic, same result.

WAT, what an awesome suggestion.

dewt

Please, Jimmy, don't drag the fight over to this thread. You were trying to say something when you started that thread. This is your chance to voice your opinion, flesh it out, whatever you want... but no fighting, no name calling. Thanks.

dewt

worth a TRY:

I too truly Like your suggestion.
Thanks for trying to find a positive direction to take all this debate.

Indeed, put all this energy in taking "Your Point" directly to the Incoming WS as they first enter MBers.

Give them that one stop shop for guidance, direction and support.

(Including a small remark about what they may experience here from posters with differing view points as well as differing time lines).

I'm confident that the thread WOULD be kept bumped up for any and all that Needed that Valuable Resource!

Sadly, there seems to be No takers.

Instead, we'll be treated to perhaps 15 more pages of this never ending discussion.

But you've only posted this here today.
So hopefully some will step forward, after they give it its due consideration.
If they do......I wish them success in reaching out to those souls that need them.

****************
My only fear is that if there ever is that type of thread....there WON'T be any consenses on what the "right" type of advice is there either! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It'll be 200 pages of "do it this way"....."no, do it that way". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Isn't that the job of the mods, Dewt? Isn't that what they are appointed to do? The last I checked, compliance with our TOS was the domain of our mods.

I am sure there are many folks who are anxious to be told the error of their posting ways who will welcome your suggestions. However, I don't imagine that most folks are sitting around awaiting some divine guidance from a well intentioned, all knowing board member on how to post properly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

See, I believe most folks post in the manner they deem suitable, according to their judgment, personality and experience, and are quite happy or they would change it on their own.

For me, I am quite happy with my posting style and have no intention of changing anything - I would guess most folks feel the same. I certainly hope you don't object.

I took WAT's advice

plesae critique and give feedback.

ummmmmmmmm, Not a very honest or accurate portrayal, JM. Asking someone to "pull over" to accommodate you is very different from telling them how they should drive.

[quote]My imaginary conversation with JM on a long trip by car:

JM: I don't like how you made that left turn. You didn't put on your blinker soon enough and you went too fast
ML: Oh really?
JM: Really, I would have veered out farther from the curb and put my blinker on sooner.
JM: You aren't looking in the rear view mirror often enough
ML: Perhaps you would like to drive
JM: But, Melody…I am doing this for your safety! DON'T YOU CARE ABOUT SAFETY!?
ML: Of course I care about safety…!
JM: Then you should have no objection to my very caring suggestions! You are just being overly sensitive and INSECURE!
ML: oh gee, please forgive me for not being more receptive
JM: I wouldn't take that turn fast
ML: How about you let me play driver and you play passenger??
JM: I AM JUST TRYING TO HELP YOU!!??? WHY ARE YOU BEING SO DISRESPECTFUL??

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

In case anyone hasn't read it yet, I would commend Patriot on a very productive, well thought out thread that I suspect will be most helpful to newcomers. Great job, Patriot and good suggestion, WAT! YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think maybe the mods should start accepting bids, and award the highest bidder with the last word on this thread.

Bwhaaaaaaaaaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As far as I can see it, it's not the mods job to advocate the principles of this site. It's their job to monitor and enforce them. It's our job, as 'MBers' to advocate them.

Furthermore, compliance with the TOS is each individual's responsibility. We all agreed to this when we read the rules and clicked, 'I agree'.

Now people, I've started this thread to address an issue. I feel that I was fairly specific in asking people to refrain from personal attacks. I'm left wondering if I wasn't clear or if the message is just being ignored. Is there something wrong with confronting the issues I've raised? Is there any reason even talking about them is inciting such aggressive behaviour?

John

ROFL now ! Good one !

ten dollars says the last word will be "again".

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Come on people, this parrot's dead.

Thank you dewt for this thread. If you have to beat an old horse to atleast try and get a point across then so be it.

I am a FWS who was trying my best to do everything right and listened to everyone's advise. But I was still met with discouraging and hurtful replies in the early days, especially when I made mistakes. Many of them nearly chased me off for good.

I will say I was met by many kind people as well. They helped me restore my M and gave me my family back. For that I am eternally in thier debt.


What favor are you doing thier BS by beating them down with more guilt and hurtful lashings to the point they are chased away? Who does that help?

How hard can it possibly be to treat others with respect and refrain from personal attacks when they are here trying to do the right thing?

Maybe if a BS feels the need to vent on others, they could take it to TOW? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


p.s. I don.t see this as being controling at all. I see it as a suggestion/reminder to be civil to one another. No offense ML. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pep, please.....in U.S. dollars, please!


Going once............
Going twice.............

SOLD! to the lady in the second row,
She's an eight, she's a nine, she's a ten, I know.
She's got ruby red lips, blonde hair, blue eyes,
And I'm about to bid my heart goodbyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Everybody sing!

Racer,
We absolutely do not advocate MBers going to TOW to vent, because that results in ugly board wars.

That WS come to this forum for a great variety of reasons.

Yet no matter the reasons for coming here.... the REASON of this forum is to rebuild marriages.....

Often enough, there is still some 'Fog', or the person is otherwise still not 'getting it', even if they have ended the affair and want to save their marriage.

and there in lies the beauty of this OPINION message board..different styles will always appeal to different people ...posters need to weed through and take that which they find helpful and leave the rest...

As members or proponents of the MB system and the Harley principles, we agree that they have merit and (ideally) we make a basic commitment to adopt them into our habits when posting

I don't know what that means..unless you are saying all people have merit...then I agree...

I believe that we have a moral responsibility to not harm others. If we do post, it should be with the intent to do good, not just unload some of our own hurt.

I think there is wider brush being painted that this is what happens here ...I don't think people unload as much as it is being toted...and i personally can't stand the fact that if an OPINION is taken as being hurtful..then it automatically is the dumping of some pathetic BS who can't see past their own pain ...truth is that marriages hold great value to all persons...and one doesn't have to be a bitter BS to post something straight and that is perceived as hurtful ...

Dr. Phil told someone today if you are bold enough to have an affair..then atleast be bold enough to own it...
dead on straight advice that I love....

Over the years I've seen a general increase of 'gratuitous sniping' and 'disrespectful judgements' and I think it's harmful. I feel I owe MB and it's ideals a debt of gratitude and it hurts me to see people disrespectfully treated here

I disagree with the general increase
I disagree with gratitious sniping...
but I realize Dewt that all this is differing opinions...
and if and when you see disrespectful name calling it's easier than pie to report...in the years i have been here I have few posts to moderators sitting in my out box...

look Dewt I can't even post to you anymore personally cause the last post you started on your situation you made it clear you wanted to no two by fours or negative feedback...well I don't have a crystal ball to know what you will perceive my post as...but I know darn well I ain't gonna call you names....but I don't feel up to taking the risk of offending you.......but lord knows I'm chomping at the bit sometimes to post to you sometimes.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I don't think this is just a support board for the sake of supporting things...
I think this is support board directly linked to the principles of the Harley plan of navigating through infidelity...

that redirecting people who want to go kicking and screaming down a different path back to the principles of plan A and plan B and POJA etc is WHAT this board is about....
not about support every and any whim....which does not make people mean or non supportive...

I bet there are plenty of anything goes pro marriage sites out there...but this site...this site...is all about a tested process...which is confusing to people who are in such emotional crisis or emotional rightiousness...that they can't see any forest or trees....

and to just drop the principles of this board just to appease coddle handhold AND risk no offensive opinions makes no sense...and will cause more damage down the line as people attempt to get "with the program"

blatant name calling needs reported.
people that do that should be ASHAMED and I mean ashamed for it serves no one and nothing....

but every thing else that is within the guidelines of this board...is opinion...and should stand as what is ...
just someones opinion...

ARK^^

Yes Arch, ofcourse you are correct. That was my lame attempt at humor. I guess that should be clarified - just like how they have the directions "do not take internally" on the back of shampoo labels.

I'm still trying to get the old horse into the corral.

I just plain don't understand the dead parrot thing. Inside joke maybe. [shrugs]

If I felt like we'd acknowledged the issues I'm trying to discuss, I might have felt some closure on the issue, but thus far it's been mostly fruitless.

I'm fairly determined to have a civilized conversation about this. I really appreciate your input, btw. It's exactly why I want to discuss this. People come here expecting help. They're told it's a great place to be, and then we have this particular issue that just kind of makes me cringe for some of the marriages that could have been helped, but weren't because of someone's gratuitous sniping.

John

I am wondering if you are this determined when you and your wife have a conversation with a difference of opinion.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There's only one thing worse than feeling put-down or bashed: Being ignored.


Does anyone know , do digital weight scales (like you use in the home), round your weight UP, or DOWN? I mean, one pound makes a big difference to a woman trying to lose weight. Even half a pound!





<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I have been told that they round DOWN in the morning and UP at night! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, then, I'm going to quit weighing myself.

Did you know that there is a college scholarship available for students who are willing to use this company's brand of duct tape, available in a variety of wonderful colors, to create an outfit to be worn to your high school prom? All you do is send them a picture of yourself in the outfit you create (gown or tux)....and they trust that you actually wore it to your prom! I'm going to encourage my daughter to try for that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep, if you're reading....what was this I saw recently about "mood-washing"? I can't remember the thread....I want to go back and re-read it more carefully. I think I may have that virus you were talking about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

NOW*

Suz and I may have to initiate you into the QUEENS

hunny gurl

have you read

The Sweet Potato Queens Book Of Love

????

I think you have definite queenly potential hunnychild

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey, that was me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Lil missy, don't you think that maybe you should discuss this with me first???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm just curious... is there any age limit on this offer?

Please read the fine print and lemme know, OK?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Exactly. An individual responsibility. It is an individual responsibility to police our own behavior, not the behavior of others. That is the MOD's responsibility. We can only control ourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


You know, Dewt, if you really want to help new people, why not check into Patriot's excellent Quick Start Guide? It is a rational approach that isn't contingent upon trying to control others. That would probably be a more realistic endeavor than futilely trying to change the behavior of others. I fear your mission is going to be about as successful as herding cats because I don't see many folks signing up to learn the error of their ways. [according to Dewt] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ML....you mean this?


"She's got ruby red lips, red hair, blue eyes"
or
"She's an eight, she's a nine, she's a ten..." ?

Pep, I have not read that!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'll get right on it....in the morning....so as not to round the scales UP tonight! Sweet potatoes, are they fattening?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I was just about to come back on and get serious. Good thing you stopped me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You older gals can be queens, Mel is a princess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

GOD BLESS TE$XAS!!

Susan,

I will check it out. But listen, I'll give you five bucks myself if you try this and post it on the MB photo album (if there still is one!) I would do it myself, but, I don't want to! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Only the part about being a TEN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Get thee to the bookstore tonight! And when you finish that one... read the rest of them.

Pep and I are in the midst of them right now...and you can see what it is doing for us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> (And surely you saw our photo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You better be careful, coz you don't know ME!

I will do it...but only if Pep will help me get the tape wrapped just right! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep, what say you?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

huh?

What "tape" I can't follow this convo right now .... there is a man in my backyard smashing our old tub to smithereens and I am distracted BIG TIME

(home remodel, what joy)

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Oh my gosh NOW, I love that song. It is one of the few country songs that I really like.

You got my attention now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have refrained from posting on these threads for the most part, because I don't like to argue and because debate bores me, but I must say I agree with both Mel and Ark.

If we can't have differing personalities, with different styles and different opinions... than what is the point?

If everyone must post in the same gentle, non abrasive style than WHAT IS THE POINT of being on a message board which emcompasses people of all different faiths, beliefs and lifes experiences? We might as well all stay in our bathrooms and talk to ourselves in the mirror.

I don't like name calling but if we can't call a spade a spade than WHAT IS THE POINT?

If a WS comes here, active in an affair than why shouldn't we call it as we see it? Why shouldn't we label his/her behavior as "scummy", when that is what it is.

If they are active in an affair and they come to a board based on marriage building, and post on an infidelity forum... than HELLO, they must know they are going to get hit by at least someone in the throes of destruction by infidelity.

I came here as a former OW, looking to find some kind of understanding in what I had been through. I have rec'd the most honest, compassionate, wise feedback and it has meant more to me than anything else since my nightmare began.

I have learned so much about boundaries, about ethics and about how caring, and forgiving people are.

I can't even begin to verbalize what this board has meant to me in the past year. It wasn't really kindness I was looking for, it was honesty and the true desire to get feedback which cut through the [email]bullsh@t[/email] which we all live in our "real" lives.

When I post a thread, which I did not too long ago regarding my sitch with my DD's dad I got some pretty "in your face blunt" replies.

They all served me well, as even the blunt ones which differed from my own feelings caused me to take another look at my own interpretation of the sitch and of my reaction to it.

I am eternally grateful for the differences of opinion and communication style of this board.

And personally I wouldn't have it any other way.

I believe we have the best and the brightest here. All of us, including JM, Dewt, Mel, Pep, Susan, Arch, NOW, LB, BA, Bob, CN, 2long, WAT, ARK, Racer, TA, BT, Low (everyone brave enough to venture in these kind of threads, and everyone else too) and so many others. All different in their styles and beliefs.

But the unifying belief, as ARK said is that we all believe in the sanctity and importance of marriage and family.

Lets embrace and be thankful for each other, in all of our differences.

Why is he smashing the tub instead of just hauling it off? Trying to get it in a black garbage bag??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Awesome post, Weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You are a stand up guy for a yankee. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

oops, almost forgot:

GOD BLESS TEXAS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

shadduppmelbelle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Yeah,ST** Mel.

Got that?

JUSTUSS!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hey, why aren't you telling on Pep? She said the same thing!

...only nicer.

Besides Justuss doesn't even know what ST** means. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

***
***
I'm not nearly as stupid as I look!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
JustUss

Can't believe you eat with that potty mouth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

for you girls

Oh Mel, WHERE do you get those?

That and the little cow pie one.

You would get along so good with my little DD. I need to keep her away from you... at all cost.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes. I'm beginning to realize that. I wonder if it's because they don't think I have a point, or if they've learned (by watching) what happens to posters who post something contrary to this little groups opinion.

Hmmm. Name calling, selfish demands, beratement, insults, disrespect, defamation, slander...

...and when even that doesn't work, childish threadjacking games.

I'm just trying to have a conversation. You are the one(s) deliberately trying to kill free speech. I feel I've raised some valid points and I'm still waiting for someone to pick up an opposing point of view and argue it intelligently and in a civilized manner.

Now Melody, clearly you don't agree with my stance in support of the Harley principles, but surely you can come up with something better than 'dewt's a control freak'. I'm still waiting for it to be explained who exactly you think I'm trying to control.

And in regards to the actual topic of this thread, can you (or anyone) come up with a logical argument or not?

dewt

Weaver, thank you for weighing in.


I absolutely believe that diversity is an excellent asset. I'm not in any way shape or form promoting a universal posting style, not trying to impose opinions.

I believe in calling a spade a spade, or at the very least, not getting caught up in the bull.

However, I believe all this can be accomplished with respect for each other and respect for the MB principles.

I

Dewt what do you want ? I'm not sure

No one here is signing up to a charter that says " yes it fine to abuse people on the boards". No one yet has disagreed with you that its no OK to abuse or insult people, particularly new WS posters.

The site rules say its not allowed and the moderators assess what is and what is not acceptable considering the context.

You agree with Mel that sometimes firm, respectful words are required, it is the definition of what constitutes 'firm, respectful' words that you seem to be stuck on.

Well dewt your interpretation, my interpretation, mels interpretation will all be different day to day and sitch to sitch but through it ALL the moderators decide what is acceptable or not.

So what are we arguing about again ?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

about how agressive, rude and mean some people here can be......when, at times, it just may not be necessary....

Yes. I'm beginning to realize that. I wonder if it's because they don't think I have a point, or if they've learned (by watching) what happens to posters who post something contrary to this little groups opinion.[/quote]

Could it be because they are perfectly happy with their own posting styles and don't feel in need of your special guidance? I know that seems crazy, but I don't think most folks sit around waiting to hear the error of their ways.

However, I think it is a very noble for you to use Harley's principles in your own life and that's all you can really do. You are a shining example, as are most others on this forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And how do you intend to change this?

Dewt,

I'm so sorry to see the great disrespect that has been shown on this board in regards to your attempt to speak on this topic. The threadjacking alone is nightmarish! Hello Mods?!?!

Personally, I agree with many of your views. I don't think it's as much about coddling or "sweet-talkin" as it is about just plain old treating people respectfully. UNLIKE what has been shown on this thread. There are several here, Dewt, that apparently have nothing to offer to your conversation, yet for some reason feel determined NOT to allow the ones that wish to participate incitefully to do so. I'm not sure how many of the comments here have helped this thread, nor were even worth the effort of posting. Just taking up space with the apparent attempt to annoy and ridicule. That could quite likely be part of the reason that this board seems to have the effect that it does. Or, lack of effect. It's really a shame to waste such good space with worthless dribble.

Now, back to the discussion at hand. I didn't see that you were trying to control or dictate your way on this thread. What I took you to mean, was that COMMON DECENCY and RESPECT should not HAVE to be reminded. That these were the personal guidelines that you ascribed to. And that you were wanting to see what others offered as to the manner that they took when responding? Am I correct there?

I think that for WS's there should be a sticky posted at the beginning of each topic, guided them to the area that is offered on this board. Then, hopefully, only the people that are truly interested in HELPING would take the time to help them out. That the ones that are so bitter and still clinging to their own hurt don't have to be exposed to them. If they went there...then it would purely be to incite. I think that would be the more appropriate way to handle WS's. Several have been turned away by the theatrics or heart wrenching pain that BS's are in the midst of. It wouldn't throw WS's in the face of hurting, recent BS's, nor would it exact the same were the situations reversed.

I truly hope that some will make an honest effort to address your thread. And those that are not prepared nor willing to join in that conversation simply omit replying. Because, truthfully, if they don't want to involve themselves in this convo., why then do they remain on this thread? Makes one wonder.

I hope the Mods take a look at some of the behavoir that has "shined through" on this board. The attempts to threadjack, derail or otherwise just be a nuisance to this thread are in no means helpful nor constructive.

I'd like to talk to you further, Dewt. That is, if others will ALLOW the discussion to progress. I guess we'll see.

Nor

Hey Ark,

I just came across your post. I'm so sorry for not having replied to you sooner for you have given me exactly what I was looking for!!! Someone to challenge my stance on these positions! Thankyouthankyouthankyou...

I will clarify:
I'm saying that the Harley principles, taken as a psychologically sound way to approach interpersonal relationships, have merit. In other words, if we shouldn't disrespectfully judge our spouse, we should not do it to our children, or our neighbour.

I will definitely concede to you this point:

I've been deliberately painting with a wide brush, in an effort to avoid offending individuals. It hasn't worked so well. I'm not advocating the stamping out of posts that might make someone uncomfortable, or shine the light where they might not be so happy it is being shined. The Lord knows I've been in that spotlight here more than a few times.

And here Ark, you have another major point.

I can't back up my perception of the general increase with any facts, so I'll have to give you that one by default.
By 'disagree with gratuitous sniping' I'm gonna assume you feel it should be avoided... (correct me if I'm wrong)

And you are absolutely right about that little button. I guess that is the bottom line. I was hoping to raise awareness of this so that as a community, we could do that much less harm, and perhaps that much more good.

When I read this, I felt I had to clarify:

I'm not advocating mollycoddling, kidgloves, or even neccesarily a 'soft' approach. An approach can be tough as nails without being disrespectful. You can call someone on a line of bullpucky without calling them bullpucky. I'm from Quebec, Canada. Vive la Differance. Variety is the spice of life.

My issue is not with folk who risk offering what might be perceived as offensive. My issue is with folk, many of whom should know better, sniping gratuitously with no disregard for the TOS or Harley principles. And that boils back down to that little notify mod button... so I guess that pretty much settles that...

Anyway, thanks again for posting.

John

NorExp,

Actually, if you go back and read, Justuss, the mod, has already been through and cleaned up some. But I gotta say thanks. I haven't minded so much because to me it's been so blatantly obvious and outrageous, that it's been the perfect illustration of what I've been trying to discuss.

Your point:

Reminded me of earlier comments about these threads dragging on and on. This page is going on six pages now. How many of those pages are posts relevent to the thread topic?

Now, back to the discussion at hand... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yes, I feel that common decency and respect should not have to be reminded. And yes, they are personal guidelines I ascribe to, but more than that, they are part of a system that has been developed by the founder of this site. A system that is not only based on decency and respect, but also on a set of psychiatric principles that have proven effective.

I did want to see what others had to offer. I was kinda hoping for an intellectual debate, or at the very least an honest and forthright exchange of ideas, but I guess in the end I did get pretty much exactly what I asked for... with a demonstration no less!

I mostly post on a different board these days. There are some great posters here, don't get me wrong, and the MB system works in many cases when properly applied, but it's not the safe haven it used to be (there I go with my nostalgia again). My FWS posts with me over there because the environment is quite a bit 'safer'. I'm still here often enough though. There's quite a few people on MB I sincerely care about so I keep coming back.

There's more in your post I want to discuss, but it's getting really late and I've a huge day at work tommorrow... I'll come back as soon as I can. Thanks again for replying.

John

Dewt

Show me someone who has advocated treating posters with disrespect or cruelly.

You are arguing with a bunch of peopel who all agree with you already.

Noon would advocate disrespect or unkindness.

But others including the mods seem to realise that this is an EMOTIONAL BOARD. Its not the star wars fan board or cheesemasters or whatever.

People will snap. It doesn;t mean they advicate such posting or what.

And when people do snap the mods deal with it.

SO again what exactly would you consider to be your objective met by this thread ?

The only thing I can see is that you personallytake offense at MelodyLane's posting style.

Well sir, as one who has been at the recieving end I'll tell you theres nothing wrong with correction in love from experience. In such cases it is disrespectful NOT to get the advice across through blankets fog or fear inaction.

What conclusion to this thread would make you feel happy ? I really don;t understand.

NorExp,

I feel there are some hurtful and disrespectful statments made by you in this paragraph.

You could very easily have been talking about my post, where I stated my feelings on the topic. Were my feelings "worthless dribble" to you?

If you were talking about the cutting up that some do occasionally, what is the harm in that? Most of those who occasionally jump in with some humor spend an enormous amount of their time on this board helping others. Would you begrudge them their fun once in awhile?

I think this board is very effectual. Like I said in my earlier post it has had a huge effect on me in my life and relationships. Which is why I defend it.

Dewt,

I'd give you an intellectual debate if I were capable of it. I'm just not wired that way intellectually.

There have been several times when reading your posts to others, especially regarding forgiveness where you really hit on something I needed to hear. And I do agree with you about incorporating the MB principles into all relationships.

You keep saying that the other board is "safer" than here. I can't argue that because I don't understand it. If somebody does lay into a poster it seems there are always others who jump in and call them on it.

Because I was an OW, I am particularly sensitive to postings on this subject but it has never been mean enough here to chase me away.

And I also know who would support my marriage to XMM if it came about and who wouldn't. So I would not look to those who would oppose it or deem it unworthy for help, or for approval.

When people come here with a sincere desire to change, I think they get plenty of good help.

And Mel did give you a good argument about why she thought trying to get posters to post "nicer" was an attempt at control. At least she gave a good enough argument that I understood what she was saying.

Sorry Dewt, probably not very intellectually stimulating convo from me or what you were looking for, but it is the best I can do right now.

Have you all noticed there are no double or triple or quadruple posts anymore on this new forum?

Cool, hey?

Oops threadjack, sorry.

What is not "helpful" are attempts to dictate the behavior of others, NorExp. The mods have taken a look at it and noted that these kind of threads always up in a brawl for that very reason. It is just simple common sense that you can only control yourself, you can't control others.


Do you mean "allowed" to discuss it without disagreement? Probably not. No one is entitled to that. But only the mods can actually stop you from discussion, other posters cannot. Feel free to carry on your productive discussion of the error of the ways of others. From the looks of your other posts, this seems to be your only topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Weaver, thanks for popping in. Maybe you don't think your reply was intellectual, but at least you're showing signs of intelligence. And you are able to come into the thread, and call someone on something without levelling a series of insults and DJs. As far as I'm concerned, that's conversation.

I think what Norexp was referring to by 'dribble' was the pages of pointless threadjacking. This may be a dead horse to some, but obviously to some it is still something worth discussing. I don't think he was refering specifically to anything you said.


What is the harm in that? Well, it's been established that DJs are not only ineffectual, but according to Harley, it qualifies as abuse. I think there is harm in abuse. I think harm is one of those things that helps define abuse. I think harm is inherent and unavoidable when you 'cut someone up', ridicule and berate them. And to have fun at the expense of someone's feelings? Do I even have to point out how cruel, inhumane and sick that is?

I have to agree with you that when people come here with a good attitude, the get plenty of good help. I have no issues with that. My issues revolve around people coming here for help/support and instead of getting help, they get DJed. Is it overwhelmingly rampant? Not saying that. I am saying that it's a big enough issue that there are some people that want to discuss it.


I must have missed the argument. It's coming across more as an accusation. I still don't buy it no matter what you call it. I don't see how raising an issue for discussion is an attempt at control. I specifically have not named names or used any examples. I've tried very hard to keep my discussion impersonal. My main point has been and still is that we should, as a community, respect the MB principle and at the very least, TOS.

Honestly, I was hoping to influence. To me, that is vastly different from trying to control.

If you understand Melody's point here, I'm gonna beg you to explain it to me, because I've been asking her for pages to explain it and she has yet to offer me a reasonable, civilized explanation or argument. In fact, the whole thing is rather difficult for me to swallow because of the apparent point of her posting here has been to aggressively disrupt the topic. I view that as controlling behaviour. I have yet to give Melody or anyone any specific advice or critique on their posting styles. I on the other hand, have been told outright that my choice of topic is unacceptable and my approach is unacceptable. What Melody has been so aggressively accusing me of is exactly what she has been doing, and she's doing so with a vehemence and aggression that is astounding.

Bob, thanks for weighing in.

You said:
Well, Bob, I've been trying to avoid naming names for the express reason that I did not want this to turn into an emotionally reactive flame war. However, this is a fair question. Rather than sift through endless pages of threads and posts in an attempt to find quotes, I will invite you to reread this thread and the one before. There are plenty of examples.

You won't find a stated position advocating treating posters with disrespect and cruelty, but you will find plenty of examples where the intent is made plain by the content of the post. Perhaps some of those posters could explain/justify their behaviour and in that we could find out why they advocate this kind of hateful behaviour.


My objective is to discuss it. In a civilized and rational manner. My objective was/is to raise awareness and hopefully INFLUENCE people (especially those posters who are leaders on this board) to think twice before they post. It is an emotional board. Absolutely, and that is all the more reason to accept the moral responsibilities that come with our membership. So that even though it's an emotional board, chock full of WS and BS alike, we can all continue to get along and try to build marriages.

I do not take offense at Melody's posting style. I've certainly taken offense at being harassed, insulted, disrespected, slandered and belittled but that's got nothing to do with her 'style'. It's got to do with her specific behaviour, and I would be just as offended if it was you acting this way, or weaver or anyone.


Bob, I've followed your story from the beginning. I know what you are saying here and I completely agree. Honest, forthright posting was of GREAT help to me when I was here as a WS. I fully advocate correction/advice/critique when it comes from a place of love and experience. That's not what I'm arguing against.

I'm arguing against purposely hurtful remarks. Critical statements stemming from a place of hate and frustration and anger very rarely help. I'm arguing that they are not only ineffective, but abusive and that we, as a community, should try to avoid posting that way.

As for what kind of conclusion to this thread would I like to see? Well for one, I'd like to see it end with the word 'again' so that you can win some money. Apart from that, I hadn't a conclusion in mind. My efforts thus far have been simply to have the conversation. In a situation where people can debate and discuss in a rational, civilized manner, the conclusions usually work themselves out.

dewt

Critical statements stemming from a place of hate and frustration and anger very rarely help. I'm arguing that they are not only ineffective, but abusive and that we, as a community, should try to avoid posting that way.

Dewt this is my point. I know of no-one who would advocate the deliberate verbal abuse of anyone , new WS , BS or whatever.

But because of the nature of the folks on THIS site, emotions will occasionally get the better of us and post from the gut, not filtered through the mind.

How do you make policy against that in away that improves upon out uniformly excellent and subtle moderators wading in when theres a challenge?

Oddly, the posts I take offense at the the sickeningly nice PC ones that give bad advice or no advice in fact.

Bob, I see your point. And you're right, no-one has come forth and argued that stance with any points. HOWEVER, there has been ample examples, through this thread alone, of people advocating that stance with their actions.

I've taken enough 2x4s upside the head (and rightfully so) for not 'walking my talk' over the past year. The basic point of these critical (and appreciated) posts was that words were not enough. I had to SHOW with my ACTIONS that I was sincere in my words.

I say the same thing applies here. Every one agrees that the Harley principles are sound but some are showing through their ACTIONS that in reality, they believe that abuse and aggressive attempts at domination are more effective ways to get what they want. Through their actions, they are advocating a position diametrically opposed to the Harley principles.

Again, I'm not advocating a change in policy. I'm advocating that we honor the one we already have.

Yes, I don't like reading 'bad advice' either. At the same time, I'm aware that the label 'bad advice' is my own interpretation. I'm not a counsellor, psychologist or coach so it's not really my place to judge the content of what is posted. Usually, if I disagree strongly enough, I'll post a countering opinion. To me, that's the wonderful thing about communication. We can share ideas and grow from our rich and varied community.

However, DJs, insults, attacks, aggressive anger... these are things that IMO hurt communication and hinder healing. And that's why I tried to post a countering opinion. That it turned into a slugfest was both surprising and discouraging. That it still is a slugfest is simply astounding.

Call me naive, but I'm still stunned by the fact that although I haven't yet thrown a single punch the attacks and ridicule still keep coming. I'm wondering if these people will chill out enough to actually talk about this or storm off in a huff when they realize I'm not affected intimidated by their aggression.

This is almost turning into a debate on democracy and free speech as far as I'm concerned, which is so far from what I'd hoped to accomplish with this thread.

dewt

Dewt,

I am in a situation right now that I'd like to tell you about. I am a FWW. OM lives in the same area. Where I live is centrally located between his house, his father's house, and his brother's house. It doesn't look like either of us is planning to move anytime in the near future. That's fine. I can't force that upon him, nor would I even try. He has every right to travel these roads, as do I.
Recently I have taken up walking....for my physical and emotional health, and my dog loves it!
I had been walking for about a month, and from time to time, have seen him in passing. It doesn't bother me. he means nothing to me, and he is no longer my concern.
Last week, OM pulls up behind me in his truck, starts babbling about needing to return something to me that his wife requested he return. ANd then he starts apologizing incessantly to me for what he did, and tried terribly hard to get me to ackowledge that. I did not respond. It is not my job to respond. My job is to maintain no contact, to never speak to him. So, I did not. But what became apparent to me is that he believes I am out there walking to purposely aggravate him and his wife. He must also believe that I hate him, or that I am not over him, because he also felt the need to tell me "it's over". I don't understand AT ALL where that came from. The only explanation I can see is that he has totally misinterpreted my intent regarding walking. Do you have any idea how ANGRY that makes me?
So now what do I do? What that feels like is his attempt to control what I do. Would he be more comfortable if I stayed holed up in my house? Sorry, I cannot allow him to influence anything I do. So, because he THINKS I am out there with an ulterior motive, do you think I should allow what he thinks about that to dictate what I do? He is absolutely WRONG about my intentions. Should I even bother trying to convince him or his wife otherwise?
I have tried to "guess" what HIS intentions are for stopping and saying something, but the truth is, I do not know....not for sure. I could react to him based on my assumptions, but that is what HE did....and we would get nowhere. So, my husband and I chose to ignore the whole thing. Nothing would be resolved anyway. It's very hard to convince somebody of something they just do not want to believe. But that's not my problem.
I used to be the kind of person who would cry and get upset when I felt that another poster was being "mean". But I have learned that I was using that to play the victim. I cannot control what people say or how they say it. And I have learned that I cannot tell with 100% accuracy, or even 50% accuracy, what their intentions were. But I decided that if their intention was to be cruel, then that is their problem, not mine. I do not have to respond. Period. And I do not have to use it as an excuse to "run away" or "hide" like I used to.
No, it is certainly not pleasant to be on the receiving end of cruelty, but I have not yet learned the skill it takes to read intentions on a forum such as this enough to decide it is actually cruelty. I have made that mistake several times here and been WRONG, more often than I have been right.
If you want to be an influence here, then all you need to do is be the type of poster you wish others were. Just BE that person.

NOW

NOW

You are

quite simply

amazing !!!!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NOW,

Pretty powerful words. They reached me, for sure. What a brilliant perspective.

What is amazing is that with that perspective, I am now free to love people as they are.

I do believe I see exactly what you mean. Thanks for sharing that.

Froz

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

... including yourowngoodself !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ditto! I agree.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep,

Yup...ESPECIALLY that. The pieces are finally falling into place for me, and I have you to thank, in part, for helping!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NOW

NOW, that was an absolutely great post. Thank you for sharing your story I've never been in a position like that so I can't really relate to having a FOP as a constant presence in my life. I sure don't envy you but am glad that you've found some peace with it.

I'm very eager to discuss the 'intentions' aspect of this issue. Probably more than anyone else I know, I'm a great example of 'good intentions gone wrong'. Largely, it's the story of my life. Also I've had enough life experience, particularily through non-profit/volonteer experiences to know that when you get a group of people bound together by their 'good intentions' you get an inherently volitile situation.

Hence the TOS and reference to Harley principles. My point, my main point, and the point that I keep coming back to is that regardless of intent, disrespectful judgements and antagonistic behaviour creates counter-productive conflict.

If, for example, you'd mounted and maintained a campaign of harassment against your FOP... if you'd shouted derisive slurs over the fence... if you'd recruited some of your friends to join you in your campaign against him... would you be enjoying the same peace? Your intent might be simply to make it plain to him that you don't want him to approach you anymore, your intent might be to drive him out of the neighbourhood... who knows? But it's the actions you take in relation to your intent that are going to have the effect.

He has no idea of your intent. And you have no idea of his. What creates the situation you are in is actions and reactions.

My stance is that we should keep our posts respectful, regardless of intent. We are all individuals with our own intentions and perceptions. Each one of us has value to add to these boards, Mel, Pep, you, me, Bob... each one of us has a unique position that is worthy of being shared. My stance is that, as MBers, and having previously agreed to behave according to a certain code of conduct, we should simply keep our posts respectful.

John

Dewt, I understand what you are saying, and I agree. The problem is, there have been times that I have posted in a manner that I believed was respectful, non-judgemental, or what have you....and it has been perceived as something other than that. Do you see the dilemma here? Communicating using the written word alone is very difficult for even the most talented writer, because they have no control over what other people are thinking. A lot of people have great difficulty accurately expressing themselves, and then on top of that, you have the reader's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate!
Regarding yesterday, I am assuming you were referring to my joking around yesterday as "childish threadjacking games". Now you correct me if I'm wrong, ok? Meanwhile, I'll assume that is how you perceived what I was writing.
I was trying to "lighten the mood". I did not treat anyone with disrespect. There were some posters who percieved it one way, and others who perceived it another way.
WHO IS CORRECT?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

NOW

I tend to believe that it is, rather, personal interpretations of actions and reactions that create the situation.

not ONLY words:

Thank you for interjecting that.
This is getting to the heart of the dilemma.

You are sooooo right. I agree with you!

Man, there have been so many people "misinterpret" what I REALLY intended.....its not even funny!

SO:
Who gets to have the monopoly on what a DJ or inappropriate comment is? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Through who's "lens" are we to filter Every Post and every Thread? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I know I tend to trust my OWN judgement moreso then "whoever" happens to be on the other End of a Message Board.
[Still think your some mighty fine folks though] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

dewt:

First, I believe I "get" your main point...
(Don't attack any posters and make them uncomfortable and thereby chase them away).
Close at least?

Next:
In almost all of your posts, you consistently keep referring to DJs.

Indeed, I truly believe (that for the most part)......there is agreement that this practice should be kept to a minimum.
(although can't get rid of entirely, cause there is a lot of pain out there) and like it or not it will Come out from time to time.

Regardless, this is where [IMO] the Disconnect is arising.

Apparently what You (dewt) consider a DJ, Differs from what Others think they are.

So WHO gets to decide the definition?

You keep claiming posters are giving You Multiple DJ's.

But thats your view [I doubt they see it that way].

For the most part, what I see are posters posting [color:"blue"]styles [/color] that you don't agree with (straight, firm, direct) as being somehow a DJ.

To them its simply good practical advice.....yet your perceiving it as DJ's.

[color:"blue"]This is a perception issue! [/color]

Unfortunately, there is Little chance of your "debating" changing someone else's Life Experiences.

What is MORE likely to happen, is since (just like YOU) They "believe" they are Right.......they are going to try to change your "perspective" ....in the same way your attempting to influence theirs.

Hence the round and round and round!

This is why these talks go on from Thread to thread ......because there is NO Final Answer.

IMO All your going to do is continue to be frustrated should you continue to pursue this angle.
But of course, feel free if you wish......that is your Right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This may not be intellectual enough for your taste.....but then that's why I'm me & Your You. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

GO Enjoy You and your weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dewt....

a few things

1. I did make an what I thought was an intelligent contribution to the discussion, which you totally ignored. I told you what my process is for posting to either WS or BS. No comment what-so-ever from you about my post. And, that's OK. But I DID contribute to the discussion at hand.

2. sillyness amongst us girls here on your very own thread

at first I could not figure out ~why~ this would upset you

then, I became aware of what I think is probably the reason you think us girls fooling around and joking is some sort of a disrespectful behavior toward you or your topic (which it is not)

here is what I think is the reason (correct me if I am wrong please)

YOU are not spending much time in the company of *really happy females*

females who are REALLY happy and enjoying life and themselves .... well, we joke and laugh, mostly at our own expense, but not always

this was/is the case here .... we were teasing each other

which, in happy-female-land is fun and enjoyable bonding

it was not about you, has nothing to do with you or the topic

this behavior is a stress reliever and also a balm for pain at times

adult women with few insecurities about themselves and no particular ax to grind often engage in this teasing silly way

it's a girl thing Dewt

and more particularly

a happy girl thing

Lots of hugs to you Dewt

I hope you can experience yourowngoodself the joys of watching happy women being silly with each other just for the hayul of it .... and not automatically think it is about you

coz it's not

it's female bonding at it's finest

and the fact that we did this on YOUR thread, is actually a compliment to you Dewt

we feel comfortable with ourselves enough to joke and play around you

~~~~~~~~

back to point #1

I did contribute to the discussion at hand and was ignored by you ... ~and~ most importantly .... I did NOT take this as an insult by you toward myself because I am happy and self-assured and if you felt no need to comment on my comment ~~~ that's perfectly FINE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You know I have been racking my brain trying to see how anything on this thread was abusive, sick or disrespecful, except the one paragrah which I quoted.

Well I did think the thread about the car scene with Mel, was a little bit DJ'y but since Mel didn't even take offense and came right back with a great response, I decided it was okay.

So I am very glad to know I am not the only one who couldn't see the DJ's.

I agree with Pep, it is nice when people joke around on your thread. To me, it lightens the mood and encourages others to jump in.

Yep, it certainly is all about perception.

NOW, I love this!!! Discussion! Thank you so much...

The problem is, there have been times that I have posted in a manner that I believed was respectful, non-judgemental, or what have you....and it has been perceived as something other than that. Do you see the dilemma here?

I too have done this. Recently too. My tone was a direct smack in the face to Bob, whereas my intent was an acknowledgement of a great point he made. Someone called me on it, I reread, and edited my post to make my intent clear.

I absolutely see the dilemma. I really feel that I've tried to circumvent it by asking that we not naming names or target any specific poster but rather approach this from an issue oriented approach. Perhaps the dilemma is inherent in the issue.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as us all acknowledging that we are human beings with feelings and make mistakes, and we will try to do better in the future.

I also think that there's a line at which the dilemma becomes far less ambiguous. To be sure it would be insane to expect us to exhibit perfect behaviour. If we were capable of that, none of us would be likely here in the first place, BS and WS both. That being said, we're here because we've been devastated by the issue of selfish insensitivity in general and I don't think it's unreasonable to encourage better behaviour than that.

Isn't that why we post to others in the first place? To encourage better behaviour? To support each other through these horrible times?

It may be a hazy uncertain line, which separates the dilemma from the obvious, but do we not, after having agreed to the TOS and presented ourselves as advocates of the MB principles have a basic responsibility to stay as far away from that line as we can?

Communicating using the written word alone is very difficult for even the most talented writer, because they have no control over what other people are thinking. A lot of people have great difficulty accurately expressing themselves, and then on top of that, you have the reader's interpretation, which may or may not be accurate!

Very good point. However, it does have certain advantages.

I can stop and think for as long as I want at any point in my sentence. For example, just now, I made myself a coffee, looked out the window and tried to think of exactly how I wanted to phrase this to you.

After typing out and deleting a couple of different things, I edited it all out because my point had already been made.

As for the readers interpretation, you could easily say the same about speech. When speaking though, you don't have a 'preview reply' option to employ before delivering your contribution to the conversation. Obviously we do not control how others interpret what we say, but we DO have influence.

It's the fundemental challenge of communication. To hear and be heard. To share view points and come to a better understanding of each others perspective. Shoving your perspective down someone's throat is not an effective way of sharing. It's counter-productive. Insulting or intimidating or verbally slapping someone is not likely to get them to open up to you.

I have to admit that I have trouble relating to the writing thing. I write WAY better than I speak. Particularily when it comes to emotional issues. An emotional conversation IRL usually goes to fast for me to come up with a way to effeciently express my view point. While I'm frantically trying to keep up with my own thoughts, I usually miss half of what the other person is trying to tell me. When I'm writing, I can go back and read, and reread, and quote references when needed. IRL, I can barely remember my own name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


I was not referring to you specifically. I'd have to go back and reread in order to provide specifics...

Which I just did (ahhh, the joys of the written word) and yep, I definitely took offense at that.

I had posted:
And a half an hour later, you posted:
And then proceed to ask about digital weight scales. And the next dozen posts or so (with the exception of one from ML) are clearly not in any way shape or form related to the thread subject matter. In fact until your last post, all your other posts within the context of the above statement, had the apparent intent to make me feel worse than the put-downs or bashing that I've been taking.


Well, who is correct about what?

Whether you were disrespectful or not?

Or whether you were trying to 'lighten the mood' or not?

I cannot answer as to whether you were truly trying to 'lighten the mood' or trying to make me feel alienated. Those are your motivations and only you can truly say. I can only guess at your intent... make assumptions based on what you say and in what context you say it. If I'm unclear, I can always ask. And then I can choose how I'm going to react to it.

In this case, and especially after reviewing the series of posts we're specifically discussing, it still seem to me that your intent was pretty clear. I haven't felt the need to ask if my assumption is correct.

How I'm responding to it is by honestly and respectfully pointing out that I felt your behaviour was disrespectful towards me and others who might want to take part in this conversation but don't want to enter a flamewar.

If indeed my assumption was incorrect, well please feel free to correct me. I make assumptions all the time. It helps me survive day to day. Acknowledging that, I also acknowledge that oftimes I make false assumptions and so I'm careful to keep my perceptions under constant re-evaluation.

dewt

*sigh*. Not since I dated a vegetarian hippy chick at college have I seen such flogging of a dead conversational horse as in this thread.

I'm done. Enjoy, everyone, i'm off to sit in the sunshine with my kids and my painful knee <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dewt

I'll just be straight with you about something I think is an issue, and yet as far as I can tell, has never been discussed

I cannot imagine refering to myself as "soul loss" and then expect myself to ever become whole and healed

humor is a tonic for the soul

humorless is something I never have understood

I wonder what the self-message can be for a person who calls herself "soul loss"

I wonder ~how~ can this be a self loving message?

it feels like self-loathing to me whenever I read it

and no matter what insult anyone would/could throw at someone self-proclaimed as "soul loss" .... I cannot imagine anything could hurt as much as calling herself THAT !

I think it is slapping herself across the face

and naming herself "soul loss" may be a self fulfilling prophecy of self-loathing .... and this becomes a filter whereby all remarks are colored this way

just a thought I've been wanting to toss out there ... because it saddens me to see someone hurt themselves for no apparent reason that makes sense to THIS happy grown up woman

see Dewt .... the most insulting messages of all ~ are the ugly ones we throw at ourselves !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dewt,

Why does my intent with my posts make any difference to you?

Thanks, Top Rope, for popping in with your intellectual reply.


I'd like to consider this closed. I'd say it's expanded over the course of these two threads to a general 'treat everyone, new and old, BS and WS alike, with basic human respect', but I think that in theory no one will contest this.

I don't think this is about a monopoly on what is acceptable or not. Or even what constitutes a DJ. I'm the king of being misinterpreted, particularily IRL... as I wrote in my last post. I think there's a line. I think it's a hazy line, and subect to much interpretation. But it's still there. The administration defines this line in theory, and we, as posters define this line in practice.

As for where the line is, I'm a big proponent of refering back to the Harly principles. In this case, the pages on Lovebusters, Selfish demands and Disrespectful judgements. I don't have time to offer links right now, but they're there and pretty darn specific in defining disrespectful judgements and determining when it's happening.


Not at all. I appreciate and aspire to the straightness and directness that many posters here seem to have naturally. Firmness and confidence are character traits that I admire and wish I had more of. What I dislike is aggressiveness and disrespect. I get upset when people who try to hurt other people with words or actions and use that firmness and directness as a tool for causing pain.

And I'm really not frustrated, because as it turns out, we're having a discussion. My perceptions, understandings and knowledge is growing and I'm enjoying the process.

Pep,


My apologies. I don't even have to go back and reread because I remember that post.

Since the topic of posting styles has come up, I'd like to take the opportunity to bring up a post you made to me last year about this time. It was on one of my dewt fessing up threads and you blasted me a good one. You were honest, direct, firm and totally right. I reeled after reading your post, got angry, sad, hurt, and then I sulked. However, I came back and answered you. You were of course, totally right. And as upset as I was, and as difficult as it was to hear your words, there were no DJs in it. Nothing that was a personal attack. I didn't have to filter through anything to get your message. I dunno if I thanked you then, but in the context of this conversation and to help make my point, I would like to re-thank you now.


Ya well, I guess I am maybe just a little neurotic about that, eh Pep? Maybe I'm just upset that you didn't invite me to fool around with you gals.

Dewt

You don't need an invitation to have fun and act like a fool ... just guts and desire to relax and not take yourself (or me) so dayum serious

life is HARD enuff Dew

when you are as old as I am

you know your days are numbered

and you make up your mind to make hay while the sun shines

coz THAT

in my opinion is why God gave us the daises and the puppies and the butterflies and childrens necks

to enjoy

not to mope about and feel sorry for ourselves coz we ain't got what the other one's got

we have all we need right now to enjoy life ... right now!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh jeez... since a funny has been made, we should explain the reference, shouldn't we?

For those that don't know my story the real quick version is that, last year, my wife developed and had an affair with our female roommate. The whole thing happened right in front of me until it was too painful to continue living there and my son and I had to leave the family home.

dewt

dewt,

I will again mention to you that I was the poster who was called out on the original thread for being "condescending and too harsh" but so far no one, including you, has expressed agreement or pointed out HOW when I specifically asked for help to recognize that and learn from it.

By your own admission early on in these threads (I forget which one because now we have a SECOND thread on "How to Post to a WS") you hadn't read the specific thread or post that JM's thread was addressing. Instead of a direct response to a direct request from a FBS to help me evaluate MY words so that I could progress in HOW I posted to a WS, the subject was turned into addressing all BS's in a general way (for the benefit of all WS's) instead of addressing this one FBS's response for the benefit of this one FBS.

I think it's ironic that this second thread doesn't seem to be accomplishing anything more than the first thread did, and the original advice that was ASKED FOR and WELCOMED--no matter how "brutally honest" it would be--has only been addressed by ONE person. That ONE person is a FBS. Ironic, huh?

Hey LB,

I'm sorry that I can't comment on that issue. I really still haven't read the original thread that Jimmy refered to. So I really can't say.

Having been posted to by you before, and seen how hard you tried (with me) to not be offensive, I would hazard a guess that your post was ok. If it wasn't, surely Jimmy, or someone, would have taken the time to answer your question. No?

And if nothing else, on this second thread, there seems to be a general consensus that we should, in general, treat each other with respect. That in itself is something.

dewt

"And if nothing else, on this second thread, there seems to be a general consensus that we should, in general, treat each other with respect. That in itself is something."

That's nothing new, dewt. I've never seen a post where someone said that we shouldn't treat each other with respect.

Again, we have another HUGE thread about the general topic of How to Post to a WS. There are many in the archives already. I've seen ONE about How to Post to a BS. Ironic, huh?

These two threads have helped me personally even though it wasn't the help I asked for or was looking for. I will take extra care to not read or post to a WS until they have reached the level of recovery that I can't tell who was a WS and who was a BS. And that includes my FWH. I think this second thread showed me that it's time to shut the door on reconciliation and speed up the divorce process as much as possible.

I'm outta here.

Well, I couldn't stay away. Just skimmed this thread and I think I am understanding more clearly what Mel, Pep and others are trying to say. Okay, simply put we can't control how others post and that this seems like an attempt to do just that. Is that right? And I agree, can't control other's actions.

I guess what frustrated me is that I was reading the same thing, that because I disagreed some longtimers, I got met with sacasm and but end of jokes. Hurt my wittle feelings it did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> But what NOW said is so true, I can't predict with any certainty if Pep or Mel were actually trying to insult me or make fun of me. That was simply my perception of the interaction. And if you guys were, well, I think I will leave that in your hands, not going to create more problems in my life by imagining insults that may or may not have been there. Besides, I have survived much much worse than a little jibbing on the net. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, weird turn of events for me, I think I agree with what Mel was bluntly trying to say on the original thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You can't control other's posting style. Heck, I have even realized if I don't like the loose moderating here, there are oodles of other sights that are more closely moderated. Nothing is forcing me to stay here.
Nothing even says that MB is the best place for me or anyone else to heal. If it was, well, then this would be the only forum dealing with infidelity and all the others would shrink into non exitence.

Interesting.

Oh well did the horsey get kicked to death or is there more a kicking to do? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Later,
Tiggy

PS. I should of added that I think this was a worthy try Dewt. I agree that all should treat each other with respect. I am starting to think though that some folks definition of respect and my definition of respect are oceans apart. I can't change them and I won't try. I will simple point out bad behavior when I see it, IMHO of course, which I am fairly sure I have a right to, even if no one else likes it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I had to try. For one thing, it drives me crazy to see people come here in search of help and be driven off by rudeness and disrespect. For another thing, I have big issues with aggressive bullies. Didn't like em in grade school. Didn't like em in high school. Don't like em online. Somebody has to step up and draw a line in the sand.

I'm pretty much ready to let this issue drop. It's difficult to have a discussion when one side is working with certain set of principles and another side has a set all to their own.

To be honest, I still have trouble accepting Melody's claim that I'm trying to 'control' anyone. In review of my arguments, I think I've pretty much stuck to the principles set out clearly in the TOS and other pages on this site as the foundation for my arguments. I did not single out any poster or posters not launch any attacks in an attempt to bully them out of the conversation. This is all in stark contrast to some of the other behaviour in this (and Jimmy Mac's) thread. So at the end, I'm sitting here wondering why I'm the one being called controlling? Until someone can provide me a link or a quote illustrating an attempt to directly control another poster, I can't accept that as fact.

If this could be called the conclusion of the thread, then I'm left with the impression that while we all agree in principle that we should treat each other with respect, in practice certain folk feel justified in behaving in any way they want.

"It's ok, as long as I can get away with it." syndrome.

Interesting that this outlook is being demonstrated in action by betrayed spouses in this case...

Oh well, I'm done.

John

ps: I want to offer a sincere thank you for all the posters who took the risk of becoming targets and contributed to this thread.

Dewt, I haven't seen anyone advocate such a position. [that "it's ok as long as I can get away with it"] Everyone agrees that we should treat others with respect - it has never been an issue - we just all have differing views of what that entails. And that is ok, we are all different and we should respect that. In the end, we can only control our own behavior, not that of others.

Edited to add: attempting to "influence" [your own words] others to conform to your will, ie: your interpretation of TOS, is the definition of controlling behavior. I realize you don't want to admit that, but that is the very definition. Using the TOS as a rationalization does not change the controlling aspect of your efforts. It is classic controlling behavior whether you recognize it or not.

Dewt


I am sorry. I wasn't clear in my last post. I do NOT agree that this thread or the other was an attempt to control anyone.

But that is my perception. Mel can have a different peception and that is all it is, her perception. You have made it clear that your intention isn't to try to control and I believe you. If Mel or anyone else has a different look on it, that is just their view of the sitch, not the reality of what you are actually doing. That is their problem to deal with and perhaps their definition isn't yours or mine what control is.

I agree that we can't control other's posting styles, in general. Just as I agree in general that we should all treat each other with respect. But there seems to be varying definitions of what control and respect are, as Mel's perception that this thread is controlling illustrates.

I still don't like it when people use other people as a venting post or just to poke fun at. And I will probably continue to say something about how I feel about that.

John, I know you barely know me, but I do agree that I think many WS and even BS are driven away here and I am glad someone brought up the subject. I am actually looking around for different forum sights that more closely monitor disrespectful language. MB while, it has been good for me, may just not be for me anymore. It doesn't feel terribly safe here at times, and hey I am a BS.

Honestly, thank you for being brave and trying. I appreciate it.

Tiggy

I'm laughing with myself.

"I'm outta here."

But here I am, just in case, kwim?

I have to stop that, and really be outta here, so I can stop laughing before my humorous laugh turns into a painful laughing AT myself for not knowing when to put a period and move on.

Believe me, those are my sentiments exactly! Everytime I think this **** has been put to bed, here it comes again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's not that I don't want to admit it Mel, it's really not. At this point, just to get this over with... I'd LOVE to admit it. Say I was wrong, and move on. But I can not.

Far as I can see, my purpose in raising this issue was to discuss it, raise awareness and remind everyone to be respectful of each other. If that influences people to think twice before posting, and it influences them to choose their words more carefully... and THAT'S what you mean by controlling... well then I'll plead guilty and we can move on.

But unless you are willing to supply at least one example where I've actually tried to control a specific persons behaviour, then please don't accuse me of being controlling again.

Dewt, I have already made very clear what constitutes controlling behavior, it is the entire premise behind this thread, which, using your own words, is an attempt to "influence" behavior. This thread is that example that you so stubbornly refuse to see. But, I have told you this before to no avail.

Suffice it to say, this subject has been beat to death and there is no point in rehashing it over and over again. I already feel like a leading actor in the movie Groundhog Day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You know how I stand on the subject and I know how you stand on the subject and I doubt we will ever agree. But thats ok, we don't have to agree.

So, I will part this thread with a very appropos passage from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous:[pg 60-62]

Most people try to live by self prepulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements, our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.

What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting that he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure the other people are to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self pitying. What is this basic trouble? Is he not really a self seeker even when trying to be kind? Isn't he a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages others well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?

Our actor is self-centered - egocentric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is the retired businessman who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self pity?

Selfishness-self centeredness! That, we think is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self delusion, self seeking, and self pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves...........

Bob,

I'm sorry that you have taken my posting so seriously. I was not speaking about posts that responded to the listed topic. I guess I'm just an old fashioned girl, and believe that conversations shouldn't be interrupted. The giggly posts were the ones I felt offensive. But, that's just me. For the sole purpose of "cutting-up" I would think that jumping in on a specific topic would seem innapropriate. That it would have been quite simple to start a "goof-off" thread. Of course, not everyone was taught the same.

Again, my sincerest apologies.
Nor

ML,

It appears to me, that when people threadjack a particular thread, in it's own way is an attempt to dictate,manipulate or regulate the thread. Change the subject, don't "allow" the conversation to continue, interrupt and sidetrack.

I'll take the disagreements. I have no problem with that. If someone wants to put their opinion onto a thread, that is their right.

I'm trying to participate in a discussion. It seems that most of your posts, are directed at people instead of topics.

Just my take on things
Nor

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

And "appearances" can be deceiving, can't they? Maybe it's nothing anymore nefarious than a much needed lighthearted moment. A little humor never hurt anyone. Regardless, only the mods have the power to dis- "allow" a conversation from continuing, and that hasn't happened. There is nothing stopping the conversation from continuing.

Sigh.

Melody. What this thread is, and the one before it, is a showcase and a shining example of the kinds of disrespectful behaviours, that we, as MBers have suppossedly agreed not to display. Insults, aggressive attacks, namecalling, disrespect, disruptiveness, meanness, and outright rudeness. I fully agree that there have been blatant attempts at control, but not really by me.

What I meant this thread to be, as stated quite clearly in the opening post, was a discussion. That you would feel so threatened by this thread, and the one before it to go so far as to rally against free speech under the politically correct banner of 'don't control me' has me completely perplexed. You seem like such a down to earth kind of gal and yet your reactions on these threads have seemed, to me, totally disproportionate to the topic at hand. Which is simply, "respect each other".

I would love to end this thread. It has gotten so far from what I truly hoped it would be, which was a civilized, rational discussion. Perhaps we can try again later. When every one has calmed down.

But, call me stubborn, egocentric, in denial, whatever you like, and in whatever manner you like, but I simply cannot accept as true your statement that I am attempting to control anyone. Furthermore, it kind of bugs me to be accused of doing something when I really feel I haven't done it. It's like being arrested for bank robbery, but they can't really point out exactly which bank you robbed, cause they're not sure...

I can't really think of much else to say to you. All I really feel like doing is quoting my last post to you... so you can read it (this time more carefully) again.

Dewt, I am sorry to have so offended you, but I would hope you would just hang onto what I posted from the AA Big Book for sometime in the future when emotions aren't so high and pitched.

As far as "disrespectful behaviors" I have seen none on this thread, but suspect that is the crux of the problem here, we all have very different ideas of what constitutes "disrespect" and "rudeness." I see a showcase of vigorous discussion and individual expression, you see a showcase of meanness. But that is ok; we are all different so it only follows that we will have different standards of correct behavior. That is what makes this place so wonderful, a diversity of personalities and perspectives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Melody, apology accepted, and gladly. Keep in mind that I'm a pothead with ADD. It is pretty much impossible for me to carry a grudge or to even feel upset for more than a few moments at a time. I am more than happy to let this particular issue between you and I be over and done with.

As for the passage, no worries. I started reading an online version the BigBook this morning, as a matter of fact. I have zero issues with alcohol, but many of the principles are the same and I'm hoping it will help with my marijuana addiction. Thank you for your thoughtfulness.

When two people who have so much to offer in such different ways have a dispute that's never settled, a valuable potential is lost. When they make peace and grow from the whole experience. That's a gain.

I quite realize that only the Mods can stop a thread. I was referring to "attempts" to disrupt. Also, I did not think kindly about being called on about my reasons or recent posts. THAT would be labeled a DJ, would it not? Besides, that statement had nothing particular to do with the thread at all. Just finger pointing.

I try not to point out a specific person when posting, and speak in a more general sense so as not to appear to "call out" anyone. That when posts get on a more personal level, they tend to be of little quality and heavy on sarcasm. Neither of which is a productive way for me to get my point across. I attempted to post TO a thread originator about a topic that interested me. To participate in and respond to a query regarding presumed disrespectful behavoir that I FELT was exhibited on this thread. Nobody need agree with me. It was nothing more than my opinion. NOT a personal affront against anyone in particular, but behavoir in general. If anyone wishes to discuss this further with me, please feel free to email me, as I hate to use up Dewt's space is this way. Thank you.

Dewt, you're alright for a foreigner! Peace. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


NorExp wrote:

NorExp, it's not a disrespectful judgment to disagree with your opinion. It happens all the time here. If you don't take kindly to folks responding to your posts, then maybe you should reconsider posting on a forum.

No, ML, it's not a DJ to disagree. I understand that the purpose of the board is to generate conversation and to assist where possible.

I have tried to post in the abstract, but that doesn't seem to work... so.....Enough generalization. You seem to have a problem with my posts. We obviously don't see eye to eye. I AM offended because you have consistently remarked rather harshly to every item that I have posted. What was the point in remarking about my recent posts? I don't how why my other posts,the them of them, or your opinion of them had anything to do with this topic. You seem to not like the response choices that I make. That isn't my problem. I post to subjects that I'm interested in. You asked about my reasons for posting to particular subjects. I don't believe that I owe you that answer. I have yet to see a place on this board that states that a person can not participate if they don't elaborate on their personal circumstances. I believe that since I have not, that it is disrespectful to insinuate anything for lack of doing so. This is NOT the only board that I participate in. I and many others from this site visit other sites. And are free to post what we wish at each.

Hey, no worries. We are discussing what is and what isn't a DJ, no-one is slinging mud. This is at least partly why I opened this thread. Discussion is good.

Questioning, testing, explaining, supporting our paradigms and perceptions is a natural part of our maturing process and we can grow so much through it. And I think the toughest discussions are the best ones to have. To run from those is to deliberately stunt your own growth, to deliberately prevent your perception from being widened. To settle for a loss when you could have had a gain.

dewt

And that's ok, Norexp, because a variety of opinions is the spice of life, no? WE probably don't see eye to eye on many things, but then........ we don't need to. Hope you feel better in the morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I feel just fine tonight, ML. But thank you so much for your concern.

Dewt,

Thank you then, for the use of space. I apologize for the side track that I've gotten into. I just take exception to posts that "appear" to border on personal attacks.

So................... where were we in our discussion?

Nor

You are most welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Uh... I think we were talking about posts that come across as personal attacks.

I think the main issue right now is what does and does not constitute a disrespectful judgement. To be sure there is plenty of room for interpretation, but as hazy as the line may be it's still there.

So, how do we define a DJ or a personal attack on the boards. What kind of post is going to be perceived as an attack by a newly arrived WS (or BS for that matter) and drive them away?

Do you think we should start a new thread again?

dewt

Hi Nor !

I assume you meant Weaver not me. I didn't post directly to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Dewt,

I would think that the DJ or personal attack would begin at the point where one party, instead of addressing the topic, chooses instead to call out an individual in an attempt to humililiate, berate, or verbally abuse another for their opinion. Or, a post that one party has had nothing to do with...and another poster seems to try to "draw another" in, with the intent to "attack".

What do you say, Dewt?

Nor

Bob,

Yes sir, you are correct. I had read your post and Weavers, and apparently confused the two. Please accept my apologies.

Thank you,
Nor

Hi NorExp,

Well, I guess I'm not outta here for real yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

NorExp, I think your post sums up what originally happened. I was called out on the original thread, but I looked past HOW the poster called me out and, instead, apologized to the person whose thread it was if he had taken my post the same way (I still don't know, he never said). I then asked that if anyone agreed with the poster who blasted me and could help me to see it so that I could learn a better way, to please take it to another thread.

Another thread was started all right, but not the thread that I had asked for (although I seemed to be credited with suggesting both the subject and the manner in which it was started). Instead of addressing this ONE FBS's comment--at the request of this ONE FBS--for the benefit of this ONE FBS, the thread was about how ALL FBS's should post to ALL WS's. As you suggest in your post, I believe that my request was manipulated to be used to draw out WS's who would attack BS's in a general way instead of just giving a direct response to a direct request from ONE FBS about ONE post to a WS.

I realize now that my request was naive and I should have foreseen that any thread that was started in response to my request would be exactly the subject it turned out to be. But never would I have foreseen a SECOND thread after the first one petered out. I have learned from this, just not what I was looking to learn.

Take care NorExp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Loving Bounderies,

I was not under the impression that this thread was directly or indirectly related to your question. I understood it to be a general view of what appeared to happen on several posts, and I attempted to answer it in that manner. I don't believe that it was started with the intent for WS's to "jump" BS's. I do not think that Dewt opened this topic with any intent to answer your question, but to address an issue that he had wondered about. If I am mistaken, I hope that Dewt will come in and clarify this.

It may have been simpler for you to start the thread that you wanted, since it wasn't addressed here. Thereby making certain that your issue was looked at specifically. Personally, I do not answer people regarding their private situations, as I do not feel that I have enough knowledge to do so. Basically, I address "notions", thoughts or ideas.

Nor

Just a quick PS.

I had thought that this might actually be a good thread. An eye opener, perhaps, for both WS's and BS's. Just a basic commentary on the interaction between 2 people. A general basis for which 2 people might deal with each other. Whether in their marital relationships, as responders to a message board, with families, or for that matter, between friends. A way for each of us to look at what we say allowed. How our words can be misconstrued, and without intent, hurt feelings. That if we studied the way people met and reacted to our statements we might be able to learn something about ourselves, so that when the situation called for it, and the need for clear, concise, direct communication was an absolute neccesity we had the ability to get our thoughts and ideas across without harmful DJ's. That is what I had hoped to gain. Apparently, I have failed miserably because I allowed myself to fall under the DJ spell. This does not make me proud. By answering Dewt's initial query in a VERY general manner, I had hoped to prevent myself from making any undesirable or objectionable statements. Bashing is not my thing.

Thanks for your time,
Nor

Hi NorExp,

The first thread was directly related to my question. So this second thread, started after the first one petered out, is indirectly related to my question. I guess if there's a third thread started then it will be so far removed from my original question that it won't be related at all?

I agree with you that dewt did not start this thread with the intent to draw in WS's to jump BS's--or to answer my question either. This second thread is indirectly related, not directly related. The first thread was directly related and he made it apparent on the first thread--the one that was directly related--that he would not be one of the WS's who would answer my question.

You're probably right that it would have been simpler to just start a thread myself. It sure would have taken a lot less space on the forum for WS's to not answer my question LOL.

I think it's time for me to go NC with both of these threads. It will be good practice for me.

Thanks for your thoughts NorExp.

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh my goodness NorExp! Your P.S. is exactly what I requested for the first thread! LOL

I'll bet that if you had seen the original thread, you would have seen the interactions that I was part of and been able to offer your view. How ironic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Take care NorExp

Loving Boundaries,

I'm sure to have seen your original thread, LB, as I do at least skim each one. I regret that I would not have responded, because yours was a particular situation, and as yet, I am not comfortable with that. However, Dewt's thread, was obscure. Generalized. And as such, I felt that I could respond.

Ideally, it would have been great if this thread had been able to deal with the content and not with people. That is what I had tried to do in my original post. But it seems that some were offended or felt that I was "targeting" them or their situation. Both of which, were not the case. In the clubs, organizations, jobs and teams that I've been involved in, speaking in general has always been a way to get a point across without pointing to any particular person, thus eliminating some risk of further dissent. Deal with the deed, not with the doer.

Under different circumstances, LB, I think that you and I could have gotten into a rather interesting conversation about this. Perhaps another day.

Thanks,
Nor

My own personal standards are set by scripture and by what my Mother taught me. MB principles are compatible which is one of the reasons I was originally drawn to this site and why I've stayed.

However, in order to keep the discussion simple, and avoid being accused of trying to impose my own interpretation of interpersonal etiquette, I've been basing my arguments entirely on quotes from Harley material.

To be sure that the material is geared towards a marital context, but I believe a strong case could be made that these principles are psychologically sound and inherently effective.

The following quotes are from the page on disrespectful judgements

"...even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful."

There's even a little questionaire at the bottom of the page to help determine if the approach is disrespectful.

" 1. Does your spouse ever try to "straighten you out?"
2. Does your spouse ever lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues?
3. Does your spouse seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?
4. When you and your spouse discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or talk so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?
5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with your spouse?
6. Does your spouse ever ridicule your point of view?

The scoring for this questionnaire is simple. Unless all of your spouse's answers are "1," you're probably engaging in disrespectful judgments. Almost all of us are guilty of this Love Buster from time to time; so don't be alarmed if you get some twos or threes. But if your spouse gave you any fours, fives, sixes, or sevens, you're at risk to lose your spouse's love for you because your disrespectful judgments are rising to the level of abuse. "

If we transfered these ideas over to a posting type context, I think we'd have a good basis for a definition.

I know there were other questions addressed to me, but I'm running out of time so I'll have to come back...

Just want to say though... that the urge to start a new thread is almost overwhelming... I'd title it "Posting Etiquette 101" and email the mods with a special request to help keep the discussion on track. But for now, I'm gonna resist that urge...

ttfn,

dewt

Dewt, thanks for sharing! IMO the above questionnaire is and EXCELLENT way to determine and define disrespectful posts… If the questionnaire is transferred to apply to a posting type context, it will read as follows:

1. Does the poster try to "straighten you out” with his/her post?
2. Does the poster lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues when posting?
3. Does the poster seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?
4. When you and the poster discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or posting so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?
5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with the poster?
6. Does the poster ever ridicule your point of view?

Makes one think doesn’t it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

Dewt, I also want to add the following to my previous post:

I think the above qustionnaire is also in line with my opinion that’s it’s better to speak/converse with other people on an ‘adult’ ‘adult’ basis, instead of a ‘parent’ ‘child’ basis - if you understand what I mean. If we speak to others on an 'adult' basis (like you've done clearly in your posts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), it will almost be impossible (if not impossible AT ALL) to 'speak' disrespectul to others... (I already posted about this on the other thread). A good book to read on this is the book "I'm OK, you're OK"..

This is good. But may I take this a step further....let's say that I gave my spouse a 6 on this questionnaire. Does that justify any subsequent behavior of mine? I mean, would you excuse me if I had an affair because I was treated disrespectfully, as in the above questions? I am just not sure, but there has to be more. Do I not have a responsibility to have and enforce boundaries so I will not allow my spouse to treat me like that? And suppose he still does, even after I make it clear that those DJ's are unacceptable? Do I allow his behavior toward me to "beat me down" or make me feel horrible about myself? If I can't change what he does, then what do I do?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

NOW, please forgive the delay in reply...


Nope, of course not. Some behaviour is just not justifiable. Abuse, infidelity... nothing justifies behaviour like that. Nothing.


(If it were my place to do so) I would excuse/forgive an affair because the person is repentant. The above questions are grounds for establishing and maintaining some boundries. I don't feel that they are grounds for an affair.


Hmmm. That's a tricky one... I suppose if there are children present, then yes, I would consider it a responsibility. Other than that, I'd call it a personal choice. We decide how we are going to let people treat us. Putting right or wrong aside for a moment, it simply boils down to personal choice.

If you try to establish boundries, and they are not respected, it's time to look at other, more extreme options. Ideally, there would be a set of consequences. (I don't think having an affair is considered a reasonable consequence)

Of course you can't change him. All you can do is make sure he has the neccesary information to make his decisions. In this case, he should know how his behaviour is affecting you. If he were to continue to abuse you, even after you expressed your feelings about it, you take action to protect yourself.

dewt