I feel just fine tonight, ML. But thank you so much for your concern.

Dewt,

Thank you then, for the use of space. I apologize for the side track that I've gotten into. I just take exception to posts that "appear" to border on personal attacks.

So................... where were we in our discussion?

Nor

You are most welcome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Uh... I think we were talking about posts that come across as personal attacks.

I think the main issue right now is what does and does not constitute a disrespectful judgement. To be sure there is plenty of room for interpretation, but as hazy as the line may be it's still there.

So, how do we define a DJ or a personal attack on the boards. What kind of post is going to be perceived as an attack by a newly arrived WS (or BS for that matter) and drive them away?

Do you think we should start a new thread again?

dewt

Hi Nor !

I assume you meant Weaver not me. I didn't post directly to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Dewt,

I would think that the DJ or personal attack would begin at the point where one party, instead of addressing the topic, chooses instead to call out an individual in an attempt to humililiate, berate, or verbally abuse another for their opinion. Or, a post that one party has had nothing to do with...and another poster seems to try to "draw another" in, with the intent to "attack".

What do you say, Dewt?

Nor

Bob,

Yes sir, you are correct. I had read your post and Weavers, and apparently confused the two. Please accept my apologies.

Thank you,
Nor

Hi NorExp,

Well, I guess I'm not outta here for real yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

NorExp, I think your post sums up what originally happened. I was called out on the original thread, but I looked past HOW the poster called me out and, instead, apologized to the person whose thread it was if he had taken my post the same way (I still don't know, he never said). I then asked that if anyone agreed with the poster who blasted me and could help me to see it so that I could learn a better way, to please take it to another thread.

Another thread was started all right, but not the thread that I had asked for (although I seemed to be credited with suggesting both the subject and the manner in which it was started). Instead of addressing this ONE FBS's comment--at the request of this ONE FBS--for the benefit of this ONE FBS, the thread was about how ALL FBS's should post to ALL WS's. As you suggest in your post, I believe that my request was manipulated to be used to draw out WS's who would attack BS's in a general way instead of just giving a direct response to a direct request from ONE FBS about ONE post to a WS.

I realize now that my request was naive and I should have foreseen that any thread that was started in response to my request would be exactly the subject it turned out to be. But never would I have foreseen a SECOND thread after the first one petered out. I have learned from this, just not what I was looking to learn.

Take care NorExp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Loving Bounderies,

I was not under the impression that this thread was directly or indirectly related to your question. I understood it to be a general view of what appeared to happen on several posts, and I attempted to answer it in that manner. I don't believe that it was started with the intent for WS's to "jump" BS's. I do not think that Dewt opened this topic with any intent to answer your question, but to address an issue that he had wondered about. If I am mistaken, I hope that Dewt will come in and clarify this.

It may have been simpler for you to start the thread that you wanted, since it wasn't addressed here. Thereby making certain that your issue was looked at specifically. Personally, I do not answer people regarding their private situations, as I do not feel that I have enough knowledge to do so. Basically, I address "notions", thoughts or ideas.

Nor

Just a quick PS.

I had thought that this might actually be a good thread. An eye opener, perhaps, for both WS's and BS's. Just a basic commentary on the interaction between 2 people. A general basis for which 2 people might deal with each other. Whether in their marital relationships, as responders to a message board, with families, or for that matter, between friends. A way for each of us to look at what we say allowed. How our words can be misconstrued, and without intent, hurt feelings. That if we studied the way people met and reacted to our statements we might be able to learn something about ourselves, so that when the situation called for it, and the need for clear, concise, direct communication was an absolute neccesity we had the ability to get our thoughts and ideas across without harmful DJ's. That is what I had hoped to gain. Apparently, I have failed miserably because I allowed myself to fall under the DJ spell. This does not make me proud. By answering Dewt's initial query in a VERY general manner, I had hoped to prevent myself from making any undesirable or objectionable statements. Bashing is not my thing.

Thanks for your time,
Nor

Hi NorExp,

The first thread was directly related to my question. So this second thread, started after the first one petered out, is indirectly related to my question. I guess if there's a third thread started then it will be so far removed from my original question that it won't be related at all?

I agree with you that dewt did not start this thread with the intent to draw in WS's to jump BS's--or to answer my question either. This second thread is indirectly related, not directly related. The first thread was directly related and he made it apparent on the first thread--the one that was directly related--that he would not be one of the WS's who would answer my question.

You're probably right that it would have been simpler to just start a thread myself. It sure would have taken a lot less space on the forum for WS's to not answer my question LOL.

I think it's time for me to go NC with both of these threads. It will be good practice for me.

Thanks for your thoughts NorExp.

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh my goodness NorExp! Your P.S. is exactly what I requested for the first thread! LOL

I'll bet that if you had seen the original thread, you would have seen the interactions that I was part of and been able to offer your view. How ironic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

Take care NorExp

Loving Boundaries,

I'm sure to have seen your original thread, LB, as I do at least skim each one. I regret that I would not have responded, because yours was a particular situation, and as yet, I am not comfortable with that. However, Dewt's thread, was obscure. Generalized. And as such, I felt that I could respond.

Ideally, it would have been great if this thread had been able to deal with the content and not with people. That is what I had tried to do in my original post. But it seems that some were offended or felt that I was "targeting" them or their situation. Both of which, were not the case. In the clubs, organizations, jobs and teams that I've been involved in, speaking in general has always been a way to get a point across without pointing to any particular person, thus eliminating some risk of further dissent. Deal with the deed, not with the doer.

Under different circumstances, LB, I think that you and I could have gotten into a rather interesting conversation about this. Perhaps another day.

Thanks,
Nor

My own personal standards are set by scripture and by what my Mother taught me. MB principles are compatible which is one of the reasons I was originally drawn to this site and why I've stayed.

However, in order to keep the discussion simple, and avoid being accused of trying to impose my own interpretation of interpersonal etiquette, I've been basing my arguments entirely on quotes from Harley material.

To be sure that the material is geared towards a marital context, but I believe a strong case could be made that these principles are psychologically sound and inherently effective.

The following quotes are from the page on disrespectful judgements

"...even when there are the purest motives, it's still a stupid and abusive strategy. It's stupid because it doesn't work, and it's abusive because it causes unhappiness. If we think we have the right -- even the responsibility -- to impose our view on our spouses, our efforts will almost invariably be interpreted as personally threatening, arrogant, rude, and incredibly disrespectful."

There's even a little questionaire at the bottom of the page to help determine if the approach is disrespectful.

" 1. Does your spouse ever try to "straighten you out?"
2. Does your spouse ever lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues?
3. Does your spouse seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?
4. When you and your spouse discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or talk so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?
5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with your spouse?
6. Does your spouse ever ridicule your point of view?

The scoring for this questionnaire is simple. Unless all of your spouse's answers are "1," you're probably engaging in disrespectful judgments. Almost all of us are guilty of this Love Buster from time to time; so don't be alarmed if you get some twos or threes. But if your spouse gave you any fours, fives, sixes, or sevens, you're at risk to lose your spouse's love for you because your disrespectful judgments are rising to the level of abuse. "

If we transfered these ideas over to a posting type context, I think we'd have a good basis for a definition.

I know there were other questions addressed to me, but I'm running out of time so I'll have to come back...

Just want to say though... that the urge to start a new thread is almost overwhelming... I'd title it "Posting Etiquette 101" and email the mods with a special request to help keep the discussion on track. But for now, I'm gonna resist that urge...

ttfn,

dewt

Dewt, thanks for sharing! IMO the above questionnaire is and EXCELLENT way to determine and define disrespectful posts… If the questionnaire is transferred to apply to a posting type context, it will read as follows:

1. Does the poster try to "straighten you out” with his/her post?
2. Does the poster lecture you instead of respectfully discussing issues when posting?
3. Does the poster seem to feel that his or her opinion is superior to yours?
4. When you and the poster discuss an issue, does he or she interrupt you or posting so much that you are prevented from having a chance to explain your position?
5. Are you afraid to discuss your points of view with the poster?
6. Does the poster ever ridicule your point of view?

Makes one think doesn’t it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

Dewt, I also want to add the following to my previous post:

I think the above qustionnaire is also in line with my opinion that’s it’s better to speak/converse with other people on an ‘adult’ ‘adult’ basis, instead of a ‘parent’ ‘child’ basis - if you understand what I mean. If we speak to others on an 'adult' basis (like you've done clearly in your posts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), it will almost be impossible (if not impossible AT ALL) to 'speak' disrespectul to others... (I already posted about this on the other thread). A good book to read on this is the book "I'm OK, you're OK"..

This is good. But may I take this a step further....let's say that I gave my spouse a 6 on this questionnaire. Does that justify any subsequent behavior of mine? I mean, would you excuse me if I had an affair because I was treated disrespectfully, as in the above questions? I am just not sure, but there has to be more. Do I not have a responsibility to have and enforce boundaries so I will not allow my spouse to treat me like that? And suppose he still does, even after I make it clear that those DJ's are unacceptable? Do I allow his behavior toward me to "beat me down" or make me feel horrible about myself? If I can't change what he does, then what do I do?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

NOW, please forgive the delay in reply...


Nope, of course not. Some behaviour is just not justifiable. Abuse, infidelity... nothing justifies behaviour like that. Nothing.


(If it were my place to do so) I would excuse/forgive an affair because the person is repentant. The above questions are grounds for establishing and maintaining some boundries. I don't feel that they are grounds for an affair.


Hmmm. That's a tricky one... I suppose if there are children present, then yes, I would consider it a responsibility. Other than that, I'd call it a personal choice. We decide how we are going to let people treat us. Putting right or wrong aside for a moment, it simply boils down to personal choice.

If you try to establish boundries, and they are not respected, it's time to look at other, more extreme options. Ideally, there would be a set of consequences. (I don't think having an affair is considered a reasonable consequence)

Of course you can't change him. All you can do is make sure he has the neccesary information to make his decisions. In this case, he should know how his behaviour is affecting you. If he were to continue to abuse you, even after you expressed your feelings about it, you take action to protect yourself.

dewt