"And if nothing else, on this second thread, there seems to be a general consensus that we should, in general, treat each other with respect. That in itself is something."

That's nothing new, dewt. I've never seen a post where someone said that we shouldn't treat each other with respect.

Again, we have another HUGE thread about the general topic of How to Post to a WS. There are many in the archives already. I've seen ONE about How to Post to a BS. Ironic, huh?

These two threads have helped me personally even though it wasn't the help I asked for or was looking for. I will take extra care to not read or post to a WS until they have reached the level of recovery that I can't tell who was a WS and who was a BS. And that includes my FWH. I think this second thread showed me that it's time to shut the door on reconciliation and speed up the divorce process as much as possible.

I'm outta here.

Well, I couldn't stay away. Just skimmed this thread and I think I am understanding more clearly what Mel, Pep and others are trying to say. Okay, simply put we can't control how others post and that this seems like an attempt to do just that. Is that right? And I agree, can't control other's actions.

I guess what frustrated me is that I was reading the same thing, that because I disagreed some longtimers, I got met with sacasm and but end of jokes. Hurt my wittle feelings it did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> But what NOW said is so true, I can't predict with any certainty if Pep or Mel were actually trying to insult me or make fun of me. That was simply my perception of the interaction. And if you guys were, well, I think I will leave that in your hands, not going to create more problems in my life by imagining insults that may or may not have been there. Besides, I have survived much much worse than a little jibbing on the net. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So, weird turn of events for me, I think I agree with what Mel was bluntly trying to say on the original thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You can't control other's posting style. Heck, I have even realized if I don't like the loose moderating here, there are oodles of other sights that are more closely moderated. Nothing is forcing me to stay here.
Nothing even says that MB is the best place for me or anyone else to heal. If it was, well, then this would be the only forum dealing with infidelity and all the others would shrink into non exitence.

Interesting.

Oh well did the horsey get kicked to death or is there more a kicking to do? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Later,
Tiggy

PS. I should of added that I think this was a worthy try Dewt. I agree that all should treat each other with respect. I am starting to think though that some folks definition of respect and my definition of respect are oceans apart. I can't change them and I won't try. I will simple point out bad behavior when I see it, IMHO of course, which I am fairly sure I have a right to, even if no one else likes it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I had to try. For one thing, it drives me crazy to see people come here in search of help and be driven off by rudeness and disrespect. For another thing, I have big issues with aggressive bullies. Didn't like em in grade school. Didn't like em in high school. Don't like em online. Somebody has to step up and draw a line in the sand.

I'm pretty much ready to let this issue drop. It's difficult to have a discussion when one side is working with certain set of principles and another side has a set all to their own.

To be honest, I still have trouble accepting Melody's claim that I'm trying to 'control' anyone. In review of my arguments, I think I've pretty much stuck to the principles set out clearly in the TOS and other pages on this site as the foundation for my arguments. I did not single out any poster or posters not launch any attacks in an attempt to bully them out of the conversation. This is all in stark contrast to some of the other behaviour in this (and Jimmy Mac's) thread. So at the end, I'm sitting here wondering why I'm the one being called controlling? Until someone can provide me a link or a quote illustrating an attempt to directly control another poster, I can't accept that as fact.

If this could be called the conclusion of the thread, then I'm left with the impression that while we all agree in principle that we should treat each other with respect, in practice certain folk feel justified in behaving in any way they want.

"It's ok, as long as I can get away with it." syndrome.

Interesting that this outlook is being demonstrated in action by betrayed spouses in this case...

Oh well, I'm done.

John

ps: I want to offer a sincere thank you for all the posters who took the risk of becoming targets and contributed to this thread.

Dewt, I haven't seen anyone advocate such a position. [that "it's ok as long as I can get away with it"] Everyone agrees that we should treat others with respect - it has never been an issue - we just all have differing views of what that entails. And that is ok, we are all different and we should respect that. In the end, we can only control our own behavior, not that of others.

Edited to add: attempting to "influence" [your own words] others to conform to your will, ie: your interpretation of TOS, is the definition of controlling behavior. I realize you don't want to admit that, but that is the very definition. Using the TOS as a rationalization does not change the controlling aspect of your efforts. It is classic controlling behavior whether you recognize it or not.

Dewt


I am sorry. I wasn't clear in my last post. I do NOT agree that this thread or the other was an attempt to control anyone.

But that is my perception. Mel can have a different peception and that is all it is, her perception. You have made it clear that your intention isn't to try to control and I believe you. If Mel or anyone else has a different look on it, that is just their view of the sitch, not the reality of what you are actually doing. That is their problem to deal with and perhaps their definition isn't yours or mine what control is.

I agree that we can't control other's posting styles, in general. Just as I agree in general that we should all treat each other with respect. But there seems to be varying definitions of what control and respect are, as Mel's perception that this thread is controlling illustrates.

I still don't like it when people use other people as a venting post or just to poke fun at. And I will probably continue to say something about how I feel about that.

John, I know you barely know me, but I do agree that I think many WS and even BS are driven away here and I am glad someone brought up the subject. I am actually looking around for different forum sights that more closely monitor disrespectful language. MB while, it has been good for me, may just not be for me anymore. It doesn't feel terribly safe here at times, and hey I am a BS.

Honestly, thank you for being brave and trying. I appreciate it.

Tiggy

I'm laughing with myself.

"I'm outta here."

But here I am, just in case, kwim?

I have to stop that, and really be outta here, so I can stop laughing before my humorous laugh turns into a painful laughing AT myself for not knowing when to put a period and move on.

Believe me, those are my sentiments exactly! Everytime I think this **** has been put to bed, here it comes again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's not that I don't want to admit it Mel, it's really not. At this point, just to get this over with... I'd LOVE to admit it. Say I was wrong, and move on. But I can not.

Far as I can see, my purpose in raising this issue was to discuss it, raise awareness and remind everyone to be respectful of each other. If that influences people to think twice before posting, and it influences them to choose their words more carefully... and THAT'S what you mean by controlling... well then I'll plead guilty and we can move on.

But unless you are willing to supply at least one example where I've actually tried to control a specific persons behaviour, then please don't accuse me of being controlling again.

Dewt, I have already made very clear what constitutes controlling behavior, it is the entire premise behind this thread, which, using your own words, is an attempt to "influence" behavior. This thread is that example that you so stubbornly refuse to see. But, I have told you this before to no avail.

Suffice it to say, this subject has been beat to death and there is no point in rehashing it over and over again. I already feel like a leading actor in the movie Groundhog Day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You know how I stand on the subject and I know how you stand on the subject and I doubt we will ever agree. But thats ok, we don't have to agree.

So, I will part this thread with a very appropos passage from the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous:[pg 60-62]

Most people try to live by self prepulsion. Each person is like an actor who wants to run the whole show; is forever trying to arrange the lights, the ballet, the scenery and the rest of the players in his own way. If his arrangements would only stay put, if only people would do as he wished, the show would be great. Everybody, including himself, would be pleased. Life would be wonderful. In trying to make these arrangements, our actor may sometimes be quite virtuous. He may be kind, considerate, patient, generous; even modest and self sacrificing. On the other hand, he may be mean, egotistical, selfish and dishonest. But, as with most humans, he is more likely to have varied traits.

What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting that he may be somewhat at fault, he is sure the other people are to blame. He becomes angry, indignant, self pitying. What is this basic trouble? Is he not really a self seeker even when trying to be kind? Isn't he a victim of the delusion that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only manages others well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?

Our actor is self-centered - egocentric, as people like to call it nowadays. He is the retired businessman who lolls in the Florida sunshine in the winter complaining of the sad state of the nation; the minister who sighs over the sins of the twentieth century; politicians and reformers who are sure all would be Utopia if the rest of the world would only behave; the outlaw safe cracker who thinks society has wronged him; and the alcoholic who has lost all and is locked up. Whatever our protestations, are not most of us concerned with ourselves, our resentments, or our self pity?

Selfishness-self centeredness! That, we think is the root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of fear, self delusion, self seeking, and self pity, we step on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Sometimes they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but we invariably find that at some time in the past we have made decisions based on self which later placed us in a position to be hurt.

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves...........

Bob,

I'm sorry that you have taken my posting so seriously. I was not speaking about posts that responded to the listed topic. I guess I'm just an old fashioned girl, and believe that conversations shouldn't be interrupted. The giggly posts were the ones I felt offensive. But, that's just me. For the sole purpose of "cutting-up" I would think that jumping in on a specific topic would seem innapropriate. That it would have been quite simple to start a "goof-off" thread. Of course, not everyone was taught the same.

Again, my sincerest apologies.
Nor

ML,

It appears to me, that when people threadjack a particular thread, in it's own way is an attempt to dictate,manipulate or regulate the thread. Change the subject, don't "allow" the conversation to continue, interrupt and sidetrack.

I'll take the disagreements. I have no problem with that. If someone wants to put their opinion onto a thread, that is their right.

I'm trying to participate in a discussion. It seems that most of your posts, are directed at people instead of topics.

Just my take on things
Nor

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

And "appearances" can be deceiving, can't they? Maybe it's nothing anymore nefarious than a much needed lighthearted moment. A little humor never hurt anyone. Regardless, only the mods have the power to dis- "allow" a conversation from continuing, and that hasn't happened. There is nothing stopping the conversation from continuing.

Sigh.

Melody. What this thread is, and the one before it, is a showcase and a shining example of the kinds of disrespectful behaviours, that we, as MBers have suppossedly agreed not to display. Insults, aggressive attacks, namecalling, disrespect, disruptiveness, meanness, and outright rudeness. I fully agree that there have been blatant attempts at control, but not really by me.

What I meant this thread to be, as stated quite clearly in the opening post, was a discussion. That you would feel so threatened by this thread, and the one before it to go so far as to rally against free speech under the politically correct banner of 'don't control me' has me completely perplexed. You seem like such a down to earth kind of gal and yet your reactions on these threads have seemed, to me, totally disproportionate to the topic at hand. Which is simply, "respect each other".

I would love to end this thread. It has gotten so far from what I truly hoped it would be, which was a civilized, rational discussion. Perhaps we can try again later. When every one has calmed down.

But, call me stubborn, egocentric, in denial, whatever you like, and in whatever manner you like, but I simply cannot accept as true your statement that I am attempting to control anyone. Furthermore, it kind of bugs me to be accused of doing something when I really feel I haven't done it. It's like being arrested for bank robbery, but they can't really point out exactly which bank you robbed, cause they're not sure...

I can't really think of much else to say to you. All I really feel like doing is quoting my last post to you... so you can read it (this time more carefully) again.

Dewt, I am sorry to have so offended you, but I would hope you would just hang onto what I posted from the AA Big Book for sometime in the future when emotions aren't so high and pitched.

As far as "disrespectful behaviors" I have seen none on this thread, but suspect that is the crux of the problem here, we all have very different ideas of what constitutes "disrespect" and "rudeness." I see a showcase of vigorous discussion and individual expression, you see a showcase of meanness. But that is ok; we are all different so it only follows that we will have different standards of correct behavior. That is what makes this place so wonderful, a diversity of personalities and perspectives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Melody, apology accepted, and gladly. Keep in mind that I'm a pothead with ADD. It is pretty much impossible for me to carry a grudge or to even feel upset for more than a few moments at a time. I am more than happy to let this particular issue between you and I be over and done with.

As for the passage, no worries. I started reading an online version the BigBook this morning, as a matter of fact. I have zero issues with alcohol, but many of the principles are the same and I'm hoping it will help with my marijuana addiction. Thank you for your thoughtfulness.

When two people who have so much to offer in such different ways have a dispute that's never settled, a valuable potential is lost. When they make peace and grow from the whole experience. That's a gain.

I quite realize that only the Mods can stop a thread. I was referring to "attempts" to disrupt. Also, I did not think kindly about being called on about my reasons or recent posts. THAT would be labeled a DJ, would it not? Besides, that statement had nothing particular to do with the thread at all. Just finger pointing.

I try not to point out a specific person when posting, and speak in a more general sense so as not to appear to "call out" anyone. That when posts get on a more personal level, they tend to be of little quality and heavy on sarcasm. Neither of which is a productive way for me to get my point across. I attempted to post TO a thread originator about a topic that interested me. To participate in and respond to a query regarding presumed disrespectful behavoir that I FELT was exhibited on this thread. Nobody need agree with me. It was nothing more than my opinion. NOT a personal affront against anyone in particular, but behavoir in general. If anyone wishes to discuss this further with me, please feel free to email me, as I hate to use up Dewt's space is this way. Thank you.

Dewt, you're alright for a foreigner! Peace. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


NorExp wrote:

NorExp, it's not a disrespectful judgment to disagree with your opinion. It happens all the time here. If you don't take kindly to folks responding to your posts, then maybe you should reconsider posting on a forum.

No, ML, it's not a DJ to disagree. I understand that the purpose of the board is to generate conversation and to assist where possible.

I have tried to post in the abstract, but that doesn't seem to work... so.....Enough generalization. You seem to have a problem with my posts. We obviously don't see eye to eye. I AM offended because you have consistently remarked rather harshly to every item that I have posted. What was the point in remarking about my recent posts? I don't how why my other posts,the them of them, or your opinion of them had anything to do with this topic. You seem to not like the response choices that I make. That isn't my problem. I post to subjects that I'm interested in. You asked about my reasons for posting to particular subjects. I don't believe that I owe you that answer. I have yet to see a place on this board that states that a person can not participate if they don't elaborate on their personal circumstances. I believe that since I have not, that it is disrespectful to insinuate anything for lack of doing so. This is NOT the only board that I participate in. I and many others from this site visit other sites. And are free to post what we wish at each.

Hey, no worries. We are discussing what is and what isn't a DJ, no-one is slinging mud. This is at least partly why I opened this thread. Discussion is good.

Questioning, testing, explaining, supporting our paradigms and perceptions is a natural part of our maturing process and we can grow so much through it. And I think the toughest discussions are the best ones to have. To run from those is to deliberately stunt your own growth, to deliberately prevent your perception from being widened. To settle for a loss when you could have had a gain.

dewt

And that's ok, Norexp, because a variety of opinions is the spice of life, no? WE probably don't see eye to eye on many things, but then........ we don't need to. Hope you feel better in the morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />