something is going on gone wrong in my marriage of 19 years and I'm not sure if I'm being overly paranoid, jelous or if we are 2 screwed up people hanging on to some make believe dream we once had.

My wife has always been "less than truthfull" about a wide range of things...from little strange things she tells me go on at work, to BIG things (like me finding her at a bar with another man)
they're "just friends", I'm told
She seems to be an "avoid trouble" liar, with a pinch of born liar thrown into the mix
Sometimes it seems she actually believes she's not lying about these things, even when confronted by concrete evidence to the contrary.
She is VERY fast at covering her tracks, leaving me flustered and baffeled - it's hard to continue the discussion when what she's just told (lied?) to me actually COULD be a reasonable explanation.

She is also on A/D (lexapro, I believe)

She also had a E/A ,ybe a P/A approx 12 yrs ago
it's never been resolved, we basically just swept it under the rug and moved on, possibly because in my mind, she would never tell me the truth anyhow

now for the most recent troubling events....

heard "rumours" of her being with other men at bars(I have always allowed her to "go with the girls" from work at the end of the day to have a few drinks and unwind)

she got a cell phone about 6 months ago, but until recently has NEVER used it to call me...

as the rumours starting coming more frequently, and from people I trust, I started doing a little checking and from what I've found out for far a E/A is a given....a P/A is still unproven - but I have a VERY sick feeling

Before I found this site, I (without realizing it) started a "Plan A"
I want her to know (and have told her so)that anything that goes wrong between us we can fix, that it hurts me deeply when she isn't truthfull with me, that I'm sorry I wasn't always there for her emotionally, that I want and intend on doing everything I can to live with her the rest of our lives happily.

I got access to her cell phone bills and cofronted her as to who these calls (at hours of the night when she was supposed to be home) were to
Was given bull about most - some, (the ones she was truthfull about)... I already knew were harmless

was told she let "someone" at the bar borrow her phone, and that they must have made the calls.
again....she's quick and at the time it seemed plausable.

I expressed my unhappiness of her hanging at the bars so much and especially the fact the "the girls" were now including single men
i was told the men were there for her single female friends and all was innocent
the bar scene continued...

now it starts getting ugly:
As my suspicions grew, I started making a habit of having to run errands to that part of town - sure enough, there's her truck
One day (with shaking body) I decided to stop in, say Hi and maybe buy the girls some drinks
In I go.... her girlfriend sees me and kinda looks like she's just seen a ghost
A man, turns and goes to the bar (he turned around in mid stride, was obviously heading their way)...he's got "the look" of not so innocent
She introduces me to him as a coworker, I shake his hand, he doesn't look me in the eye, he makes a very short inaudible remark and goes back to the bar

It seems rather odd to me that someone who is supposed to be a "good friend" "just a drinking buddy" wouldn't want to hang around and get to know the spouse of someone they're "innocently" interested in
Not to mention this guy is alone now with noone to talk to

paranoid?

A couple weeks ago, she was supposed to be at an appointment - I was there - she never showed.
I confronted her
"you must not have seen me parked in the back"
she was never there,period
I reconfront her a couple days later and get a quick, semi-believable story

I continue my detective work and discover that her apparent main job at work (in what I percieve to be her mind), is to flirt and fondle as many good looking men as she can.
That's been told to me by 3 people that have no interest in anything except letting me know that my wife needs to "tone it down" a notch

Since confronting her about the (still unresolved) cell phone numbers, she has only used her phone to call me and the "innocent" people
She also now knows that I can see who she calls, so what's to stop them from calling, which I can't see on the bills

I'm shaking like a leaf, almost always
I'm obsessed with finding out what I DON'T want to know
my work is suffering, my (young adult) children know something is up
I keep it all bottled up inside, trying to put up a good front, trying to make believe it's just a dream and when I wake up all will be good

holehearted, welcome to MB. So sorry for the circumstances that find you here. Have you suggested MC to your W? Have you read Surviving An Affair? If not please run to the bookstore or library and pick up a copy. Have you thought about hiring a PI to follow your W to get proof of the PA? I unfortunately understand what it is like to deal with someone that lies all the time. My H became like that the past few years but I tend to trust my instincts more than his words. Keep reading and posting.

Welcome to Marriage Builders. I'm not at all an expert but I didn't want your post to go unanswered. We often come here in a state of crisis. Shaking like a leaf is a state I know quite well.

You are quite normal. You want to know everything but can't find it out. You know something is going on but can't pin it down. You ask your spouse questions and all you get are, at best, the shaded truth.

Read through this site. Learn about Plan A and the policy of absolute openess. Think about where you set your boundaries...what's important to you. Maybe you need to show up at the bars more often. Maybe you need one of those GPS trackers. Definitely look at Orchid's guide to reverse babble. Her techniques will help you deal with the stories your wife gives you.

Keep comiing back. MB is a great place to be.

thanks for the replies.

I've suggested MC and was basically told that we were ok and didn't need it.
I'll go grab the book.

At this point in time a PI is financially out of the question.
She has been staying out of the bars of late , possibly because I've been spending as much time as I can with her.
Possibly because she has tired of the whole scene, and has come to relize my dissatisfaction with it.
I've been trying to be her best friend and confident again, something I've been neglecting and take full responsibilty for.

Again, it all could have been totally innocent and misconstrued by me because of her lack of honesty about the whole situation.

The auto plant she works at employs mostly men - recently she was moved to a different department....hmmmm....

Where's the truth serum when you need it?

I don't suppose you have a link to "Orchid's guide to reverse babble"?

And I could use some more information about setting boundaries.
I think maybe I've been letting her run too freely, which may have been percieved by her as an excuse to ummm...DUH..
run freely?

thanks

Holehearted, I'm sorry you're here, but this place will help keep you as sane as possible while living with an insane person. Trust your gut. Steve Harley, who H and I counseled with, told my FWH that As and lies go hand in hand. Another book I would recommend highly is "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. It really talks about how work relationships turn into EAs and PAs. Unfortunately that is what happened with my H who never did lie to me before. In my opinion it is important to know what you are dealing with. My H stonewalled me for months until I think he knew in his gut I was ready to leave our M because I was so unhappy. He had refused to talk to me about our M. That is when he began to come clean.

Also, when I first came here several MBers recommended that I consider getting on an AD. I am not telling you to do that, just know it's an option. When H began the truth-telling I could feel myself slipping into a major depression. I'm in the mental health field and knew the signs. I called my doc and asked her to put me on an AD just to help me get rid of the anxiety so I could deal more clearly with the crisis. If nothing else remember that you are the sane one here. You are the one operating with integrity. You will be OK. CV

Here is the link to Orchid's reverse babble

thanks for the insight...
I think she's coming to her senses (or scamming me)
she's been where she's supposed to be for a week now

Do you think it inappropriate to , at the end of the week, ask her if she has anything she'd like to tell me?
Kind of like confession?

I mentioned to her,(in a supportive kind of way), that if she "accidentally" lied, to simply say something like :
"just kidding, here's what REALLY happened"
does that sound like something I should be doing?
She's always been a liar, so I suppose letting her get away with it all these years, certainly wasn't the right thing to do.

Do I call her out on EVERYTHING?
And what do I do when SHE is the one doing the reverse babble?(she's trying to save face, I suppose)

Thinking back, maybe it was a mistake to let her know what I knew?
Only time will tell on that one , I guess

"In my opinion it is important to know what you are dealing with."
I wish I knew.............

Thanks for the link
I'm getting the hang of searh criteria now

I just found out she blew the day off work wednsday, she didn't come home (she leaves before me)

she hasn't said a word to me about missing a day

Are you going to tell her you know? It is important that you ask for the truth in a non LB way.

Oh , I'm defineatly going to ask her.
It's not the LB's I'm worried about, I can handle that part

I'm preparing myself for the line of bull....
and how best to deal with that.

Here's what I think she'll say:
"I didn't feel good so I went to the ...(pick a place I can't confirm)...and took a nap, I didn't want to bother you..."

holehearted -

It definately sounds like she is having an affair to me. My WH fooled me for 6 months. He was always at home in the evening, but took off from work to go to motels with the OW. I found out when I came home early from work one day and got the mail, including the motel bills (all during times when he was supposed to be at work).

He lied and said he just went to the motel to think.

In your case, it is suspicious that your wife has been where she is supposed to be all week - but took a day off from work without telling you. I think she realizes that you are suspicious. She is just getting more careful.

If it were me, I would not ask her about it. I would do a little investigating on my own. Can you get someone to go to the bar and check what is going on? Put a recorder on your home phone? Get the cell phone activity on-line? Put a recorder in her vehicle?

holehearted, I feel for you. If you read my thread, you will see that we are going through basically the same thing. I am dealing with overwhelming suspicion. I too feel that I would be an idiot not to think anything is going on but in the back of your mind you hope you are the exception to the rule. I deal with the constant BS and doubletalk. I deal with the single and married girlfriends and her position that I have absolutely no right to dictate her friends and her female relationships. My wife has one married friend that she alternates visits with back and forth. She comes to our town with out her husband and my wife goes to visit her without me. They are first cousins. When my wife's married friend comes to visit, I go out with them sometimes. Every time that I am with them, she hits on every guy in the bar from the time that she gets there until we leave. We have even left her there before and she showed up sometime early the next day. I am under no delusions that my wife does not do the same thing when she goes to visit. I deal with the unknown cellphone calls. Someone is always borrowing my wife's cellphone when she is out and making calls. However, when I am with her, no one has EVER asked to borrow her cellphone to make a call. You have also given me something very important to think about. You state that this happened also sveral years ago and you swept it under the rug because she refused to discuss and never confessed. As you can see I am in the same situation that you were in several years ago. I know that everyone on this board and my counselor said to not let this happen under any circumstances or I will be right back where I am now. I see that you are proof of what everyone else is saying and this has made me realize what I need to do now. We might be able to bounce thoughts off each other to get something done in our situations. Keep strong.

The "truth"....will probably never be known.
I pretty much hit the nail on the head..."got sick on the way to work,pulled over,threw up - so drove (15 miles !!!, and past our house) to take a nap at the park."
What do I say to that? It's impossible to prove/disprove.

I told her I was sorry she wasn't feeling good and to lay down and take it easy for the night.

Funny, finding in the garbage, wrappers from a bunch of spicy food.

I brought up again about the appointment she never went to.
I heard 3 different stories in less than 30 seconds.
I never thought my head could be spun around so fast.
I explained that whatever/where ever she was, to just NOT baffle me with bull.

I got a voice activated recorder and hid it in her truck.

I hope(?) that she's just going through some mid-life crisis, I think.

I'll get the recorder back Saturday and see what it says.
I AM prepared for the worse (hoping for the best)
Shaking like a leaf (again)

She still hasn't been back to the bar(that I know of)
She was hanging with a group of friends from work that were half her age - just bairly old enough to drink.
Maybe she just got caught up in the younger generation's fun...

Are you ready to find out ? It is gut wrenchingly painful. I am so sorry for you. Stay with this group the support is wonderful. Wk/ends can be slow so just keep posting.

Yes, I'm very ready - it would be a relief to know that "I" am not the one who is off the deep end.

She tells me she's been talking to a counselor over the phone(about her depression and hearing voices).
Another unprovable thing.
She never mentioned anything about hearing voices, before I first confronted her.

I guess I need to keep my mouth shut and gather evidence.
It's so hard sometimes to not say anything when somebody does the "telling you it's raining" thing

counselors---whether over the phone or in person still want to be paid---where are the bills or insurance paperwork???

holehearted, we are in the same boat. I do not know if my wife had an EA, a PA or what. As far as she is concerned, the matter is closed and I can just get over it. As I stated earlier, deep down I can tell that she feels justified in whatever she did. I look at her like you look at your wife. I do not know who this person is anymore. Due to this, I have no desire to have any contact with her. How do you repair a relationship with someone who purposely remains a mystery. I want to know the extent of the relationship. I want to know who ended the relationship and why she is still in my house. Who knows because she is not going to say. Is she a serial adulterer? I do not know. I have listened to everyone on this board and have have devised my plan. Firstly, everyone says that there can be no reconciliation until the wandering party confesses. Without this, there is no hope under any scenario. Therefore, I am going to have one last good summer with my children. When they start back to school in August, I am going to confront my spouse as I never have before. I am going to be brutal in my frankness and my position. I am going to demand a confession or demand that she provide me with absolute proof that there was not a PA. I have made suggestions which she rejected. I am leaving this up to her. I will give her one month and if she does not comply then I am starting a divorce fight for the children and everything that we own. I will not give her a divorce that contains our two children and half our property as a reward for her behavior. I suggest you consider something also along these lines as I do not think your wife is going to confess or ever give you the peace of mind that you are struggling for.