Okay, so I'm here on the advice of my friend. Here's the backstory:
Me - 37
W - 36
2 children - Age 7 and 5
Married 13 years
Bomb dropped on January 19, 2005.

My W and I were went to our first counseling session. I thought we were there to get help to repair our marriage. She explained that there was no chemistry in our M and that she wanted a divorce. That was it. No talk allowed about re-building...just ways to negotiate the waters to a positive outcome for our kids.

That was 14 weeks ago. In that time, I've come to realize many things about my W and the actions to this point. First, her network of family and friends are coaching her toward this D. She made her decision and whatever story she is telling them has convinced them that she should be gone. She is also getting advice from OM (plural). She is seeking the company of men...at this point I'm pretty sure it's only EA...but I know they are there. I've seen the cell bills and done the research. She's admitted that she is talking to male friends...but only friends.

Her main goal is to get out of this marriage with me to find that gratifying love life with another man. She admitted that it's her right to test the waters. My C, priest and others have told me to make it clear that sh is still married and that she doesn't have the right to seek OM yet. I discussed with her. She accuses me of attempting to create an issue. They are ONLY FRIENDS. I explained that may be the case but they started out as interests of another type--there was an attraction on her part. There is ONE person that she talks with who she has known since college...and has talked with since then as well. It never seemed like much BUT looking at the cell phone bills...she called him the day she dropped the bomb and she has been talking with him at least every 3 days for the last couple of years. So, I'm wondering if he is the true OM waiting for her to leave. He also has a wife and family.

I know that I have not been a perfect husband. I have not always been as attentive to her needs as she would like. There are other things too...but, I'm new around here and don't want to frighten you people!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I just want to be on the record in saying that I take responsibility for half of the problems in our marriage. BUT, in all, I'm a good guy...and a GREAT dad...and I thought a pretty good husband.

Anyway, there is probably more to cover but those are the basics. I'm just seeking advice and support in how to proceed.

Technically, "our" goal if we D, is to maintain as much of a sense of calm for our kids as possible. I know that it isn't truly possible...D hurts kids. PERIOD. My W won't listen when I attempt to explain or doesn't care. Anyway, we are going to first attempt to write our own separation agreement...to reflect "our" wants/needs before going to lawyers or mediators.

Okay...sorry for the long post. Feel free to rip in. As possible, I will add more information. Thanks for your advice and help in advance. (Forged, help me if I left anything out.)

Thanks.
Space

Space - Welcome to MarriageBuilders. It is a great place to be under the circumstances.

It seems to me that your wife already has picked out an affair partner - mainly because most WS's are all alike. Your wife is spouting out the same nonsense that they all quote. It is almost like they have a handbook they go by.

I would guess that she is heavily in a fantasy with the married man that she talks to. Maybe you can find a way to verify this.

Start in Plan A. You can read all about it here. Then if you are able to find out more, you will need to expose the affair.

The "Just Friends" story is an old one around here. We have all heard it a million times before. Also the fact that she will go to counseling, but only to ease the divorce points to an affair.

So hang in there, and stick with us. We are all way ahead of her. Now that you have a plan, you will be too.

Howdy space,

Why are you working with W on the sep agreement? Is your want or need to Sep? If the sep is not what you want, then you shouldn't work on the agreement... Right? Thre are many wise people on this board, and I am not one of them, but I would be dragging my feel like I was wearing lead shoes if I were you.

Hey Forged!
I am dragging my feet on the sep agreement. I'm just starting to get antsy about what will happen with my kids if I don't cooperate to some degree? It's like playing tennis from two sides of the net. My side, to stay together, involves not assisting in any of the "leaving" scenarios. But, I also have to watch and play from the other side as well...to make sure that IF this happens (which with my wife, it's going to)...I don't get screwed...my kids are any more negatively affected than necessary.

SO, for the last 3 months, I have been dragging my feet. Not facilitating the discussions about the future, etc. BUT, on Friday at the C, she let it be known that she has already leased an apt.--with TWO bedrooms if it comes to that...so that the kids will have a place. So, she is starting with the kids as pawns game. I don't want that...so, I have to consider working on the sep agreement to appease.

My kids are my world. I am their primary care giver. I spend the most time with them and am responsible for them...activities, school work, baths, dinner, etc. BUT, we live in Texas, so, there is a chance that my W could leave and take them with her...this is still a "mother" friendly state as far as custody goes. Right now, she is agreeing to a full 50/50 deal...but, I get the feeling if I don't start cooperating...she might change her mind.

H#LL! I'm so confused right now...I don't know where to turn or what to think!

Space

I agree with FORGED....

First do YOU want to stay married to this woman?

If so do not engage in D talk or write up seperation agreements.

You can listen to HER do it and add your 2 cents like "I'm hear you" "I prefer to keep our family together" "I'm not feeling up to this discussion right this minute, maybe later OK?" "I never knew that...hmmm, interesting" and other harmless platitudes while you are working PlanA like a champ.

If the counsaling comes up again you can politely tell her "I'm not comfortable discussing this with (insert MC's name here) let's find another I am comfortable with" (and then make an appointment with the Harleys quickly or at least it will buy you some time to Plan A some more). Counsaling won't do any good while she is in the thick of her foggy WS behavior anyway.

Anyway, their are better people here that will come and point you in the right direction, in the meantime devour this site (not just the forums, read the site, all of it...speed order the books) and get cracking, you have a family to save SuperDad.

Your Friend
RebornMan

The best upfront advice I can offer at the moment is,

DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOME!!!!!!!!!!!

Let her make all the preps for a separation - just be steadfast in your belief that a separation is not needed and that you believe your marriage can be healed to be a loving one for the benefit of all concerned.

DO NOT SIGN ANY SEPARATION DOCUMENT!!! Not now, at least. If she eventually moves out, THEN seek a separation document for your and your kids protection. DO NOT REVERSE THE ORDER!!! > separation document, then she moves. This eliminates from her the label of having "abandoned" the family.


I'm not new around here and I bet I've heard it all, so fess up. We cannot fully help you without knowing the full story.

Bud, do you have proof that she has leased an apartment?

If she did then she is legally bound by it, that doesn't mean it is her perogative to change it. But that isn't the issue here.

I too was the primary caregiver of our 4 kids and I don't know if this will help but here is what I did.

When she made grumblings about taking the kids, this is what I told her (it would also help if you would EXPOSE her EA at least if not PA already, your friends and family need to know, don't let her dictate the terms my friend...expose, expose, expose)

I said "I have raised these children 13 years, I changed almost all their diapers, I was there for there first steps, I fed them their first solid food, I took them to their first day of school, I belong to all the parent groups, I alone attend all the Conferences, I am the first person they see in the morning and generally the one that tucks them in at night, I bathe them, I cook all their meals and they haven't done ONE THING to deserve being ripped away from the ONE constant in their lives and that is me, did you ask them if it was OK to sleep with another man and break up our family? Did you ask me? No you didn't but you think you have the right to tell us what we are going to do now? It is your decision to go, I won't stop you but the kids and I have done nothing to deserve being seperated from each other...you seperated yourself from us"

And that was the end of that. She left and I kept the kids, it's been ohhh 14 months or so and believe me...your W will back down too...you know why? Because once she gets a chance to think about it kids will just interfere with her fantasy world. Stand firm on this one bud, don't let her bully you into 50/50 or joint custody, the kids need a home base, secure and solid. Remember, she is the one leaving, nobody is forcing her too and you can nicely remind her of that.

In the meantime you need to figure out whether you want to stay married to her or not.

Personally your sitch sounds a lot like mine and you need to do some snooping to find out the truth no matter how painful it may be. Your fumbling in the dark without it and honestly you'll need it to use as a friggin' cattle prod on her and to be able to expose the truth. If she is involved in an affair you are helping it along by not knowing the truth and not exposing it to the light of day. You'll be surprised how quickly she will back down once the truth is out.

In the meantime do not sign one piece of paper!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let her leave and then file a seperation agreement basically saying she abandoned the family home and now you financial and custody protection for your children. That is what I did and believe me, the courts don't look fondly on Mommies that abandon their children. Once you have custody you'll be in a better position to keep them through divorce if it comes to that.

Stay Strong
Find the truth
RebornMan

WAT said: "DO NOT SIGN ANY SEPARATION DOCUMENT!!! Not now, at least. If she eventually moves out, THEN seek a separation document for your and your kids protection. DO NOT REVERSE THE ORDER!!! > separation document, then she moves. This eliminates from her the label of having "abandoned" the family."

Listen carefully to these words!!!!!! (and read the quickstart for BS!)

Okay...
As for moving out w/o an agreement, she knows that it will look bad for her. She's made the comment in our C session that it will be abandonment on her part if she goes without an agreement in place. So, she knows the game. She has spoken to a free lawyer and is getting advice from "some of the best" in the field of leaving. Not her words, just mine. One of her main advice givers is her boss, who is married to an attorney (her third, progressively richer husband). I'm not sure who else is advising...maybe the attorney's son (also an attorney) who is possibly one of the men on her list of "friends."

That's why I'm concerned about what will happen if I don't cooperate to some degree. Hopefully, she won't use the kids as pawns...but I don't put it past her...again, the advice she's getting is less than stellar. I'm trying to stand on principle...I'm also trying to be honest and upfront with her.

Okay...I'm gone for the day. Meetings...and real work have to take precedent (for a few hours).
Space

OK, this is good. This means neither one of you is leaving and you're guaranteed of having the opportunity to do a full on Plan A.

So get hot on learning all you can about Plan A.

Of course, this means you need to be a model citizen. You HAVE to keep your nose clean and be on pristine behavior. In other words, DO NOT do ANYTHING that she can reasonably criticize you about. Oh, she'll still criticize you about plenty, just don't give her any extra ammunition. Be ready for all sorts of trivial complaints or rehashing old complaints. Take advantage of this by changing or fixing EVERYTHING she criticizes no matter how trivial, unless she starts contradicting herself.

Also, be a model Dad.

Yes, it's unfair that you have to do all the heavy lifting, but in the end, no matter how it all turns out, you'll be WAY better off for sacrificing for your family. Trust me on this.

She's talking to a lawyer. You need to too. Just so you can find out what the rules are in your state and how best to go about things.

Its probably going to be a battle of the wits. But you have the advantage in that you do want to save the marriage. If she wants out, she can leave. Don't give that up!

But be prepared, it could get pretty darn uncomfortable and she could try all sorts of things to make you be the one to bail.

Hang in there, be strong, and write here if you need some support.

Cheers,

Miker

Hi, space.

I am glad you made it here.

Please listen to these folks, you are getting excellent advice. WAT has been here a long time, pay particular heed to his suggestions.

You can do this.

God bless,
Gimble

So what about those skeletons in the closet?

WAT

wow, I see so many opportunities here that are being missed. First off, I suspect she is having an affair, which is why she wants to leave you. She is probably making classic statements like "I love you but am not in love with you," blah, blah, blah. In order to save this train wreck from happening, you must UNCOVER her affair, though. And do it NOW!

Uncovering her affair will give you back control of your life and possibly help you save your marriage. If she is having an affair, which I believe she is, you can bust up the happy party and take all the fun out of it by exposing to her family, your family, the judge and the OM's wife and family. That will all but ruin her little plans. If this is true, this information would hurt her in any divorce proceedings and prevent her from taking the kids from their home.

Uncovering this affair MUST BE your first order of business. You cannot move forward until you have all the facts; otherwise you are flying in the dark at a distinct disadvantage.

There are a few things you can do. Hire a P.I., tap the phone, bug her car, put spyware on her computer. Do what you have to do to find out what is going on here. In the meantime, don't sign a damn thing and don't let her take your kids.

Have you spoken to the OM's wife? What does she think about all this?

WAT,
I'm not sure there is enough time in the day to list all my faults in our marriage. Where to start? I am passive aggressive...I don't do the confronting so well. Which when it came to discussing problems in our marriage, I just avoided and she avoided...and well, you get the picture.

Also, I was dealing with a number depression issues. Very sick mother with cancer. Lousy career change. The addition of a child during all of this. Moving into an apartment. Loss of a cousin. Stressful job situation. My wife quitting a solid job to become create her own business--sales work with questionable pay. My best friend of 25 years moving away. Loss of a sister. MANY MANY issues that contributed to the despression-state. As a result of all these things, I begin to sleep on our couch. I thought I was doing her a favor by not distracting her from her sleep...I snored, I tossed and turned, I needed the tv to go to sleep.

What I was doing was forcing her to sleep alone. Our sex-life dwindled...and in her head, she decided that she wasn't desirable, etc. All this has lead her to her current frame-of-reference, we have no chemistry...and never did. NOW, after months of therapy, I am coming to understand why I am the way I am. And, I'm making the changes for the better...for ME. BUT, it doesn't negate the fact that she slept alone for almost 5 years.

See WAT, I warned you!! So, those are the other things...a rough patch in my emotional life is what finally derailed my marriage.

I hope I didn't scare you people away! But, remember WAT asked! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Space

Is that it?

Sheese, I was sorta hoping for some chain saw issues or something involving a german shepard or something like that - just to change the story sufficiently enough to make you a custom case.

But nnnnoooooOOOOOOOOOoooooo! You're no different than anybody else here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So get hot on Plan A, order Surviving An Affair, and follow up on Mel's advice, above, on positively ID'ing the scum bag. Start by contacting the husbands of any prevalent females on his cell phone records.

WAT

Scrutinize the cell records and other info you have, and don't hesitate to dig for the facts. Be prepared for the most pain you imagined possible when the facts come in. I was not quite as prepared as I thought, and I spiralled into a bit of a funk when the facts became clear. I don't regret for a second gaining that knowledge, but the pain was real. Knowledge is power, power gives confidence, and confidence is needed to do the difficult things neccessary for the good of your children.

Keep notes/records about everything that might be useful when custody becomes an issue. And keep these records AWAY from your wife.

When you discuss anything with your foggy spouse, insert the word "family" as often as necessary. She is on a selfish journey and needs reminding that there is a family here .... and THAT, my man, is what you are standing up for .... family.

Do some nice things for her without being asked.... and make them special .... for instance .... foot rubs .... or buy her a special iced coffee and surprise her wirh it .... or fill her car with gas and get it cleaned .... and cook a meal just for the 2 of you and don't include the kids sometimes .... let them have PBJ sandwiches .... you and she enjoy grown-up food....

this is Plan A .... and it puts holes into her trying to build a case that you are not the right man for the job ... meeting her needs. MAKE A LIAR OUT OF HER BY BEING SO DAYUM WONDERFUL SHE WILL HAVE TO MAKE THINGS UP TO COMPLAIN ABOUT !

... and there ain't nuttin "fair" about this .... but do this for your family.... and you get the reward of knowing YOU are making an effort and that YOU are willing to put "fair" aside at least for a time ... in order to do what is necessary.

Best wishes

Pep

Hey Folks--
I am amazed at the amount of information available here. I appreciate all of your input.

WAT sorry to disappoint you with my skeletons. If it's german shepherds you want, that was a different lifetime! KIDDING!!! Something I thought might be interesting to add...it doesn't really have anything to do with me BUT, it's something that my W is using as rationale. This one is tough to say because she wields it like a knife...she is using the excuse that she believes I'm gay (and not being honest with myself) and that is another of her reasons for leaving. "I just want us BOTH to be happy...and you may not want to admit it now...but you WILL be happy with your life some day." NICE, isn't it?

Now, I'll be the first to admit...I am in touch with my feminine side. I grew up with FIVE (count 'em), FIVE older sisters...so, whaddaya expect? In the beginning, the W loved me because I enjoyed the arts, was sensitive to her needs, was/am an extremely attentive father, cook, clean, fold clothes, shop for clothes, etc. But, to be honest, most of the men on my dad's side of the family are cooks, attentive fathers, housekeepers, etc. It's just the way I grew up...my dad did most of those things...except shopping, that I got from my mother who loved to spend all day shopping and none of my sisters would go...I didn't like for her to be alone, so I learned the patience and the art of a good "sale." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any advice on how to address the whole "gay" issue. The W pretends that it isn't an issue after our first MC told her that she should NOT make it an issue in her decision. BUT, any time I confront her with something that is uncomfortable, she will allude to (or sometimes say it out-right) the issue. I asked her why she thinks it...she said intuition...AND that ALL of her friends have known it forever and were wondering when SHE would wake up. Hmmm...could these be the same friends who were jealous of the fact that I could take care of my kids, cook them dinner, give them baths, put them to bed and wash/dry/fold a load of laundry while my wife was out earning a living?

Sorry I was just venting!! Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks.
Space.

I suggest you ignore all accusations, except for ones that may have some value for things that truthfully need to be fixed. Attend to those.

If you can outright discount any accusation, do it outloud just once, then ignore any repeats. Don't try to defend yourself. Just ignore it and use it as an example to yourself of how desperate the WS is to find something to help them justify their behavior. A WS looking to criticize their spouse seems to actually believe what they're saying - they HAVE to.

I was abusive. I also hid money that could have been used for my son's medical treatments. At first I tried to defend this crap, then realized how it empowered my WS to keep it up. She interpreted my defense as guilty denials - she HAD to. When I stopped defending myself and just rolled my eyes, she took her accusations to others - who laughed in her face.

Try to see through her statements and actions as being designed to justify her behavior. When you can do this, you may start to recognize the necessary role she is playing. Your role is to be cool and confident. Do not fall into her traps.

WAT