MB'ers,
I've posted very few times and mostly just lurk and read. You are always so helpful to others and I know have a question I need help with. I need help setting a boundary, or maybe better said, helping my wife to establish her own boundaries.

Brief background...wife had an EA/PA for roughly 10 months which ended last year. It ended after exposure which was much delayed on my part. (Note to new Builders - please DO NOT delay exposing. It is scary but it DOES work.). WW doesn't want to go to counseling because our last experience, when she was still in the A, was a waste of time and money. As with many wayward spouses, she has gotten over it and can't really see why it is still such a big deal for me. We moved to get away from OM and she has a new job.

I monitor her email occasionally to make sure there is no renewed contact with OM. There hasn't been but recently her email communication with a colleague has been making me nervous. Her colleague works in another office in a different state. They do have to communicate for work and 99% of their exchanges are all business. But occasionally they discuss things that are more personal. It started with discussions of what they did over the weekend, what they had for dinner the night before, etc. Pretty bland stuff. But recently, she sent him a picture of herself on the beach and he sent her a few pictures of himself. There have been no overtly sexual exchanges, but there has been flirting. What makes me most nervous is that she forwarded one of his emails to a friend who was an accomplice in her A. And back during her A she sent the same picture of herself to her OM. Patterns of the past repeating themselves…

So, my question...I know that this is not appropriate behavior for a married person. How do I express this to her without sounding to her like the crazy jealous husband (which is how she thinks of me most of the time when I express a concern about something A related)? More to the point, how do I make her recognize that this is inappropriate behavior. I don't want to live the rest of my life checking up on her.

And how do I go about this without revealing that I am still reading her emails? If I were to just casually mention, out of the blue, that I wouldn’t approve of her emailing pictures to strange men then she would know.

Sorry this was so long and thanks in advance for any assistance.

-Befuddled

Does she know that you can monitor her email? Did she give you her email password after her last affair?

How are things otherwise in your relationship with her? Do I sense defensiveness in her? How has the recovery been?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi,

Sorry, I can't help you with your problem, but it sounds like you can help me.

I just recently became very suspicious that my wife is seeing someone else. Suspicious signs are everywhere...she can't look me in the eye anymore, they avoid each other when we're all together, he is awkward in my presence.

After I expressed my jealousy over the attention she was getting from this person (before they started avoiding each other), she now every once in a while goes into a *bashing* of this person's character in my presence and asks me my opinion. Then she suggested that I distance myself from this person.

Anyway, you said that exposing the relationship was the best. How do you go about doing this when you don't have positive proof? Do you need to get proof? How? Then if you have proof how do you approach the task itself?

It may be too late though, I see signs that she will be getting rid of me for this other person. She is shutting me out emotionally, physically and as caretaker; whenever we start to make a connection she turns away; but continues to say nothing is wrong when I try to talk about our relationship. Both families have kids aged 7 and 10, so I'm afraid for our kids as well.

I know I've made a lot of mistakes in my marriage, but I am willing to change myself and do anything to keep her.

--Dan

Thanks for responding Susan.

No, she doesn’t know I can read her email. She knows that I was able to at some point, because exposure came due to renewed email contact with OM after two months of NC. Out of everything from the A, including exposure, she is probably most upset about the “invasion of privacy.” I am fully aware of the rationalization involved on her part, but that is her feeling. It still upsets her and she asks me occasionally if I’m reading her mail - maybe a clue that at least on some level she knows that her emails with this new man are inappropriate?

Recovery has been…well let’s just say not according to the MB principles. As with many WS it seems, she has had her mourning period and is now “over it.” I have to walk a very fine line when bringing up a concern. Sometimes she will accept it and talk about my concern. Other times I get the eye-roll and the look of “are you going to talk about that again?” So I’m making small steps. But the good news is that I am getting better at expressing my concerns. I used to just let them build up inside me until I was a wreck. So at least I’m growing.

We are very affectionate to each other. I make a point of not getting complacent in our relationship. I still do the Plan A things, although on a less intense basis, to let her know that I love her. Our sex life could be a lot better, but I guess it is recovering at about the same rate as the rest of our relationship. We spend lots of time together and I try to make it quality time, not just TV/couch time.

I hope that answers your questions.

danj - I set you up with your own thread. Your situation deserves its own thread to make sure you receive the help you need. Step one is to make 100% sure you are dealing with an affair, either emotional (EA) or physical (PA). I would say that in your case it sure seems to sound and walk like a duck.

Good luck to you.

Thanks for the help, I really appreciate it!

Sorry, but I'm new here and need more help in finding the new thread you created. Thanks again!

danj

It is on this board, General Questions II, and is titled "Please help danj w/Exposure ".

This concerns me because I was upset over the invasion of privacy too but only when I still had something to hide. Now I leave my computer up and running with my email up all the time. My husband can read anything he wants at all times.

How did you process the affair after discovery? Did you have any type of counseling?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yeah it has concerned me too. I thought that eventually she would get over it. She never had a problem with me knowing her password before the affair.

I have asked her before if she thinks that she would recognize the signs of an affair “creeping” up on her at some point in the future. She said she would and that she didn’t want any part of it again because of the pain it caused. That was encouraging, but on my bad days, like today, I wonder if that was just another thing said for my benefit. And now, with these latest developments, it seems more likely. And, on my bad days, I think that the only thing she actually regrets is getting caught. I wonder if she misses the excitement of the affair, the rush. If so, then it isn’t a big leap to envision her looking for the source of the next rush.

I’m really babbling now. Not sure if I answered any of your questions.

How did I process discovery of the affair?

Before I found MB I had already started a Plan A. MB helped me refine it and gave me a plan to follow. That helped my sanity more than anything else. If I was critiquing myself I would have to say that like a lot of other BS I was too much of a doormat and spent too much time trying to change my wife and not enough time changing myself. I corrected that later after exposure.

I did Plan A for about 7 months. I would move out or threaten to move out each time I found out contact had continued. She would cry and make promises and I would move back in. I managed to stop the affair for a couple of months by threatening the OM. She found out somehow; the emails started again and intensified to the point where they scheduled a “meeting.” At that point I was done with the marriage. I called the OM’s wife . She didn’t handle the news nearly as calmly as I had. She told her immediately told her children and then went down and made a scene at her husband’s office. I do regret that she told her son. He is in 6th grade and probably didn’t need to hear about his parents marital problems the way he did. But that was out of my control. My wife, however, still sees what I did as being at least a little vindictive.

An important dynamic that I think I should mention is that I was so distraught by the affair that I kept finding reasons that it wasn’t my wife’s fault. I villanized the OM, my wife’s health problems, my job, myself...almost anything to keep it from being her fault. My WW was all too happy to let me do this as it kept her from having to deal with her guilt. I realize now that it was her decision and hers alone.

Unfortunately, I think that in the end she didn’t have to feel much guilt or regret because I shouldered so much of it for her. If possible, I think she somehow ended up with the upper hand after the whole mess: She had something special. I ruined it; I invaded her privacy; I hung around for her to come out of it; I was the vindictive jerk; and as a bonus, I treated her extremely well the whole time she was being so terrible to me.

That was kind of cathartic. I think I’m starting to understand why people post so much!

I'm an ex-WS. I can answer your question most positively;

YES she misses the rush of the affair.

This is why YOU must be part of her plan to protect your marriage.

I think you should tell her that you are aware of the inappropriate communication and ask her what she plans to do about it.

Explain to her the difference between privacy and secrecy. Spouses can extend privacy to one another out of trust and respect. There is NOTHING done in private that the spouse could not know about if necessary. Secrecy is when things are intentionally kept from the spouse so the WS can engage in bad behavior.

So ask your wife if she wants "privacy" or "secrecy". You'll have your answer.

Low

It seems that there were no consequences for her affair. I'm assuming that you did not have any type of counseling or any processing of the affair. The affair ended and it was swept under the rug.

She is ripe for another one, and believe me, from personal experience I know.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dear Befuddled you said:


1."without sounding to her like the crazy jealous husband"

How she interprets your motive is NOT in your control, therefore not your problem.

Your goal is to express yourself clearly so there is no misunderstanding.

She is going to attribute some sort of junk to your motive no matter what because anytime you enforce a boundary with this woman it is going to cause her to react in the way that most WS react ---> defensively.

So, don't worry about her thinking this or that about you ... say what you need to say in order to support the good healthy marital principle you embrace. If she doesn't like it (she won't) then it is up to her to make an adjustment. Not you.

What you own here is yourself expressing your needs in a clear kind way.

What you do not own is her reaction.

2. "how do I make her recognize that it is inappropriate behavior?"

trust me .... she recognizes this already.... hence the need for secrecy.

She knows this is not Ok ... and she chooses to do it anyway.

So you tell her how it makes you feel ... and be sure to use the word "violated" ...

BUT FIRST ---> you start this discussion with some serious complimenting of her and what she means to you and something you love about her and what was the last most recent wonderful thing she did for you ---> then say to her "I don't want this marriage to deteriorate, it means so much to me" .... then say "I have copies of emails between you and Mr. X and it is very hurtful and distressing for me to know that the woman I love so deeply is sharing beach photos of herself with a man I do not know. Please do not do this anymore.
i feel violated by this activity."

Then give her a loving look, kiss her on the lips, and refuse to argue about it. If she tries to argue, repeat "This makes me feel violated." as often as necessary.

Good luck ... she's a slippery one your wife.

Pep

BS,

What you are being told to do is use "radical honesty". You can do it without love busting. You can tell her what you know, how you know it, and that you will continue to check for a simple reason: You love her and you want this marriage to succeed. LO, pointed out that you should know the difference between secrecy and privacy. She should understand it as well.

Further, if she gets in a huff, you need to explain your need for protection from further A's on her part. You need her to work WITH you, and clearly sending another male a picture of her on a beach is NOT doing that.

Be honest...radically honest but also avoid LB's and accusations. Explain to her what you know, what worries you, and ask her to help YOU.

The rest is up to her. As you can see I am echoing the advice you have already received.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks everyone for your advice. I haven’t responded because 1) I can’t always log and 2) I wanted to give your posts the thought they deserve.

I’m a pretty right-brained person (hey, I’m a guy, what do you expect&#61514;) So thinking this through I have a question. If I were to confront her about the emails I think that not only would my wife not “get it” – think about and consider my concerns – but that she would completely ignore them because she is fixating on another “invasion of her privacy.” Past experience tells me that just expressing my feelings doesn’t always do the trick. IOW, telling her, kissing her and walking away probably aren’t going to do the trick. Is it repetition that will finally get the point across? Is it all in the delivery?

My wife isn’t a horrible person. If she was then I wouldn’t love her with all my heart. Conversations here tend to dwell on the negative and it worries me that others, even though this is all anonymous, will get that impression. I’m not sure what my point is, I just felt like saying that.

I guess what I’m grappling with is whether her behavior, that which I consider inappropriate, is her consciously acting inappropriate or her just being herself. I wonder because I feel that knowing would change how I approach her on the issue. Maybe it is a moot point. Either way it is inappropriate. Maybe I’m just not willing to believe, still, that she is intentionally doing things to hurt me.

“Death by over-optimism” It will be on my tomb stone someday.

I’m not arguing with the logic or correctness of your advice. I know all of you are right. Maybe I just don’t have the energy to confront what needs to be confronted. I was so drained, emotionally and physically, for so long and I’ve just recently felt some semblance of normalcy again. Or maybe I’m just a conflict avoider looking for some validation for my inaction.

Time for bed. Thanks again all. I DO appreciate it.

-Befuddled

BS,

Whether her intentions were conscious or not would not change how you address them. Nor would they change the outcome - an affair.

You would address both the same way, in the MB fashion. The advice given above by the others, stands the same in my opinion.

Don't CA this or you just might find yourself back to square one. And from what I hear around here the second affair is more painful and devastating then the first, if that is possible.

Put what you know now and what you are being advised to use.

NO conflict avoiding!!!!!

Take care BS!

BS,

Your W is on a slippery slope and on the edge of getting involved in another EA again if you don’t act and stop it NOW. She is already on the edge of an EA… You need to confront her as soon a possible. If you read my signature and my Bio link, you will see I was also involved in an inappropriate e-mail friendship… Your post send up red flags in my head after I’ve read it because, like your W, there was also some flirting going on between me and XOM and I also send him some beach photo’s of myself. I believe if my H didn’t discover the inappropriateness of the friendship in time, it would probably escalate to a full-blown EA very soon... By the time the involvement crossed boundaries into flirting etc, I was already involved in an EA in my head and feelings…and I believe it was just a matter of time before things would get totally out of hand... I tell you this because the same might be true for you W right now and that’s why you need to take action before it’s too late. Also, I don’t believe your W’s intentions can be unconscious because this is not her first inappropriate involvement and she is suppose to know better by now. My inappropriate involvement with the XOM and the consequences thereof was enough to scare me away from such behavior and too close opposite sex friendships FOR LIFE! I don’t even want to become friends with an opposite sex person now except if the person is a friend of both me and my H… It’s possible that the first involvement might happen unconsciously and unintentionally on some level, but definitely not the second involvement… IMO it's not possible to unconsciously making the SAME mistake again and I think your W knows EXACTLY what she is doing and you need to take a stand…

Suzet

We don't doubt that she is a good person, but that does not mean that you should accept disrespectful behavior just because overall she is basically good. Sending pictures to another man is not in the best interest of the marriage and is disrespectful to you.

You have two choices, you either confront her with the information or not. Don't base your plan of action (or what you will say) on her response. Do what is in the best interest of your marriage.

If her behavior is causing you concern and you don't approach her, it will eat away at your relationship. Resentments will build in you. She already has resentments, so it is not a good road the two of you are on.

If you choose not to talk to her about your concerns, it is much the same as she did when she had an affair. Instead of talking to you and dealing with whatever the issues in the marriage were, she sought outside comfort.

So, you confront her or not. And if you confront her, the only way to do it is with honesty.

If you can't approach her and talk to her, I would insist that some marriage counseling is in order!

Good luck,
Susan

Well, you were all right...of course. Shouldn't have doubted it. Didn't really doubt it. Just didn't want to believe it.

Emails today included an invitation to visit her (he lives in a city about 5 hours away) and a postscript "to make the picture perfectly clear, I am separated from my husband. He lives in XX, I live here."

This isn't true. I do work in another city 2 nights / 3 days a week, but I just permanently moved back to wife's city two weeks ago and am commuting. Good news, if there is any to be found, is that the guy doesn't seem interested.

So what now? I don't know that I have the energy to go through this all again. Just not sure I want to. Do I implement Plan B to give me time to think? I can't be around her right now. I just couldn't fake it like I did before. I'm staying in the other city tonight so I don't have to see her. But I need to do something tonight as we are supposed to attend a wedding together this weekend.


Help.

Please.

Print the emails out, show them to her and tell her that they make you feel violated.

You are going to have to go through it, whether you want to or not. Don't be in denial. Believe it. You have the facts, now take action.

Good luck,
Susan