[quote

LM, have you ever come across this sort of PTSD in your practice? Maybe among would-be suicides rushed to the ER? Did anyone recognize what was going on?

And what is the treatment for emotionally caused PTSD?

A lot of us are listening.

Thanks
Mulan [/quote]

Mulan:

I think that I have defintely seen this many times in practice. Emotional PTSD is a very real phenemenon. Yes, I agree that WOMEN will get often stereotyped as "crazy" when they go through this kind of stuff. I think you characterize it very good when you say that someone goes crazy because of a WS cheating NOT vice versa. I am afraid that I don't have answers for you. I am just beginning to understand the complexities of this phenemenon, and didn't really give it any credence UNTILL it happened to me. Like many doctors, I am 100% guilty of stereotyping people and I had a much different perspective on "emotional trauma" before this happened. I am not happy to report what my thoughts and actions were regarding to patients with "emotional baggage" in the past.

Did you ever see the movie "The Doctor", with William Hurt? That movie is so real with regards to my life it is scary. I can't watch that movie without shedding a tear ever. It splits me and other doctors wide open.

I deal with acute life threatning injuries in my job daily, and do NOT have any real experience in treating patients who have suffered emotional trauma.........which sadly can be life threatning in the long run.

I suspect a good IC counselor (probably NOT an MD) who can work with the "real issues" of this and not just drug you up with 3 AD's and tranquilizers may be the key.

I can crack a chest, and repair an aortic aneursym in 90 minutes skin to skin, but I can't help you in dealing with the PTSD youe WH has caused you. Go figure that.

Good luck with your recovery from this.

I would have to ask you why you are still with you WH after the many repeated betryals of you. YOu cannot heal if the source of your trauma is still actively inflicting pain.

LM

LM, thank you so much for your response. As I said to Mimi, sometimes it just helps to know that it has a name and that you are not the only one. I try to deal with it by keeping busy (I have two jobs) and by using Kava to take the edge off of the panic/anxiety attacks.

***I would have to ask you why you are still with you WH after the many repeated betryals of you.***

I don't think he is still going out with the girls from work now, as he used to. The situation there is different at this time. The pain now is caused by his refusal to apologize for his actions -- he is just not sorry -- and by his refusal to POJA *anything* to do with his work life. Both of these things are a source of intense pain for me, especially the lack of apology, but there is nothing I can do to change it.

My theory is that he was, and still is, a real addict for attention with a bottomless appetite for strokes and attention -- especially from females. I think he had no idea how is actions would affect me and our marriage -- he acts like he has no idea what a marriage is --and is so deeply in denial, and so shocked at the contrast between the man he thinks he is and the things that he has done, that he would rather get a divorce than have to face it.

But hey, he doesn't like it if I try to "psychoanalyze" him.

I stay because I have a teenage son who still needs me. I sure as hell do not want some other woman in the house while my son is still there and I will not take that risk.

***YOu cannot heal if the source of your trauma is still actively inflicting pain.***

You are so right about that. At this point, the pain inflicted comes from the lack of remorse, the lack of empathy, and the bullheaded insistence that I sweep everything under the rug and act like nothing ever happened.

Thanks again for the response -- and I think the new boards suck too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

CSUE, LEMONMAN, MULAN AND OTHERS:

Thanks for responding. I'm struck by how we are such a support group for each other.

I've been thinking a lot today about PERSONAL RECOVERY.

LM:
My PERSONAL RECOVERY began during my PLAN A. I started counseling almost immediately with Steve H. after D-Day and he told me to begin working on MY PLAN. He didn't call it PLAN A. He called it MY PLAN. He encouraged me to focus on personal change and to stop focusing on my WH. So for me, I couldn't have easily separated out the two issues until NOW.

CSUE:
You are so right. Now I'm again thinking more about PERSONAL RECOVERY. I can get back to my own MLC and try to figure out, like Jane Fonda, how I want to live this last part of my life. It's like my FWH went off and had his fun. Now he's back and wants to be very traditional, the dutiful husband, the loving father, a family man. I want to have fun now and he wants to play house after being off having his fun.

LM and MULAN:
A big difference between my point of view and yours if you really read between the lines is my strong connection to my FWH. Some would call it overdependence or codependence. I never learned, even during PLAN B, to live a life without him. Even now, when I am feeling at my worse, he is the antidepressant, the antidote for my bad feelings. He is dependent on me as well. I did not have the opportunity to learn how to live without him.

Do you know the Trisha Yearwood song? "How Do I Live Without You". That's my theme song.

Just some late night thoughts.

MORE LATER....

Mimi:

Well Mimi, I think you can call it a "connection" if that makes you feel better, but I think it is strong co-dependance, and hence why you are "stuck" here in limbo with things. I think no matter how "connected" you are to your FWH, it is still dysfunctional, and untill you learn to stop the co-dependance and learn to be happy without him (this is not meant to mean divorce him), you will always take your cues for happiness from him. That to me would never be a way to live. In the end, you have to be happy within yourself. You CANNOT find personal recovery being co-dependant on your husband.

This is my opinion. I think you are a good woman and your FWH should be happy that you stood by him and took a $hit load of abuse while he betrayed you over and over....but you are paying the price for that abuse now.

What does the good Doctor Harley think of your "overdependance" on your FWH, or his being the antidote for your depression? That is an awful lot of power you have given someone else over your life. I know that for me, I would never want the sole responsibility to make and keep someone happy.

I hope you get help. I really do.

Goodluck

LM

Okay Mimi...I've tried not to respond, but I have to.

I will, however, take a different tact that those here who have given you wonderful counsel.

You recently said that I know you better than most people who see you everyday. That is a supreme compliment. To that end, let me offer this observation.

You seem very cyclical in your emotions. Almost like well....well....you know, the 28 day thing. The reason I say that this is important is that you seem to want to sway WAY out in one direction to the extreme, and then the next week that whole thing is almost a moot point.

Please don't go overboard on the PTSD thing. Come back here in 2 weeks and decide if you still agree with all this. I see that you throw an issue out here on a separate thread, and all your many legions of fan want to (rightfully so) jump in to help you. I think this may have the unfortunate effect of "over magnifying" the issue.

However, I will concur with one constant theme as I've had to learn the same lesson. You must learn to be happy with Mimi....and with Mimi only. Then, and only then, can you have the type of R that is fulfilling and long lasting with H (and even S's). H can't make you happy, and he can't be a crutch. Perhaps that's something that contributed to my downfall. Too much reliance on WW to make me happy. Now I have to learn to be happy without her. Should we ever get back together, I will need to continue to know that I CAN be happy without her, therefore I can establish a healthy (i.e. - non codependent) relationship.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh. You know me (too) always worried about offending....

Georgia

This the MB position on this. Particularly,LM,what do you think? I'll be back later.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

This is Dr. Harley's quote from this article. He is talking about his own marriage.



I'm going to do some more thinking about this. He does go on to say that he doesn't recommend codependency in a relationship with an alcoholic. He thinks it is healthy,as codependency is defined, in a healthy relationship. The problem is that I might need to consider my FWH a "dry drunk", showing some leftover addictive behaviors from his A- thus, creating anxiety in me. I'm going to think on this some more and get back with you folks.

I want to say this out loud. I don't know if there is a solution for this or not.

For those of us with PTSD, having been recently wounded by an A, it is difficult to handle triggers that can be received on this forum.

Sarcasm is a real major trigger for me. It was a mechanism used by my FWH to be aggressive towards me during his A. So another member here who has that same style does anger me and hurt me. It has seemed to me that person directs attacks at me personally. It may not be the case. I end up feeling that way though.

Anyways when such a thing happens to a person with PTSD, when there are triggers, it makes them want to run. I am wanting to run from this forum. It saddens me as I type this because I don't want to go away.

What should I do? Help me if you wish.

There's so much more happiness and good in my personal life now. However, I did want to stick around here to try to help others, to try to give back some of what I received here.

I was hoping that some of you could help me with this.

Someone made a joke about this being a "tiff". Someone also said that "I'm blowing this out of proportion".

This is not being understanding of the realness and pain of PTSD....

I'm listening to PEP's suggestion to try to DUKE this out

Thanks for saying that. It is refreshing to hear that from a medical professional like yourself. I know AD are a popular suggestion on these forums for people undergoing the trauma of infidelity but to truly get "feeling better" you need to deal with your issues not medicate yourself with AD's.

AD's are just a quick fix, not a solution!

Cheers,

Miker

Hello Mimi,

I don't think I've ever posted to you before. But you sound just like me right now, so I can't resist.

I, too, have had problems all my life "taking things personally."

It helps to see your feelings as just feelings -- they are data receptors. They are one way we have -- along with sight and sound -- to read what's going on in a situation. But you don't have to be glued to them.

If you get a trigger, I'd say take a shower, run around the block, stand on your head. Almost any other activity will give you more perspective. (It's amazing when I wake up in the morning, to look back and see what I was blowing out of proportion the night before!) An astonishing discovery I've made in the last five years: when I get a "trigger," no law forces me to immediately press the "reply" button. I can wait a few hours, usually a day.

I too have a lot of leftover stuff from my sitch, and I don't expect it to go away in a hurry. However, it's not other people's problem. I rely on close friends to tell me when I'm taking things to personally. Sometimes they are wrong -- most of the time they are right. It's teaching me to be more neutral.

I find it's a trigger even to hear WH's name, which I do often. I've taken to refering to him as "HW" among my friends. (Short for He Who Shall Not be Named) That way I don't have to take a nosedive into many conflicting emotions every time his name is mentioned. It's much more neutral. Neat trick.

Also, here's something I find enormous consolation, and I think you will, too: There's something much worse than taking things to personally. It's not taking things personally enough.

Part of HW's denial and fog is treating everything in his life as if it is happening to someone else, on a planet far, far away. His emotional dissociation is enormous, and he feels it protects him from harm. In fact, it causes enormous damage to those around him. And enormous spiritual damage to himself.

because you don't want to retreat into a victim mode ... it is counter-productive to your goal Mimi ... so stay and defend yourself and learn how to stand up when required ...

and ... "duke it out" is a term I use ... for getting your communication skills to the level where you do communicate in spite of your discomfort ... coz if you give in to your discomfort ... you weaken your communication skills.

You can pick and choose when to get wounded Mimi, did you know that?

Pep

Mimi Hi!

You're already on the right track for what I'm thinking.

You're talking about your triggers, and personal recovery.

Also remember the limitations of communicating on a forum such as this...it's very difficult to communicate effectively - same with emails. Emoticons help some, but it is still to easy to be misunderstood, jokes, sarcasm - etc play better when tone of voice, facial expressions, body language etc can be communicated.

For some time you've been communicating that you're in a difficult place; PTSD, co-dependency issues, CAing - to be honest, these are all perfectly normal for what we've all been through. We're just at different stages of recovery if we're lucky or coping with ongoing affair issues if we're not in recovery.

I can't think of a better place for you to be to work through what you're strggling with.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I think part of the reason you're in the place you're in - is because personal recovery has risen to the top of your needs. Even as recently as this week, your husband and son are getting along better than ever.

Their relationship has been such a concern to you that now it's finally getting on track - you can relax some more; and the postponed issues of personal recovery can now finally rise to the surface of your consciousness. That's the good news and the bad news!

You're finally in a place where you can relax and deal with them, but YIKES!!! It's not fun. Many people continue to create great drama in their lives in the unconscious effort to avoid feeling and dealing with their legitimate pain. To me that's what addiction is all about.

Don't run from here. Not for this reason. There are valid reasons to leave, but not to avoid the strong emotions that triggers create. I have learned that the only way to deal with triggers is to work right through them, going around them simply invites them back another day.

I'm suggesting you don't run. Even if for awhile - you stand still and breathe; then when you're at a more peaceful place - take baby steps forward. It's the only way to take the power/energy away from triggers. There are a host of gifts to be found when you excavate these mine fields. Think about it!

I'm listening to YOU ALL and I thank you for your responses.

YES! PERSONAL RECOVERY IS RISING TO THE SURFACE!

What to do about ANGER? I haven't learned the middle ground. Either run away or go for the jugular.

Mimi - I have to laugh.........

"What to do about ANGER? I haven't learned the middle ground. Either run away or go for the jugular."

I shake my head, because I am a natural extremeist too! It's all about balance and perspective, simple terms - yet very complex.

It's in accepting this about yourself and recognizing it earlier and earlier before it takes hold. My favorite term I use is "peeling myself off the ceiling"! Which I seem to do often!

Especially about gut-level issues!

Yep, that's it!

"STILL WATERS RUN DEEP" could be considered my trademark.

This is an event I'll probably never forget. It was so eerie:

There was a bully that kept on picking on me in about the 5th or 6th grade. I was always the "quiet, good" girl among a group of us that went from grade to grade together throughout elementary school. One day I must have not been able to take it anymore. He started picking and all I can remember is him begging me to stop and me hitting him. I stopped and sat back in my seat. He went back to his seat. You could hear a pin drop in the room. Nobody told the teacher. It was like it didn't even happen.

You see why I get nervous at the thought of wanting to ram my car into the OW's?

Mimi,

I often feel the same way. I am an extremely emotional person and can have quite a thin skin at times. It sucks, frankly. I've always thought that I feel things harder than most, or lacked some sort of protective outer shell that most people seem to have. It's just the way I am, and that part I accept because I don't believe I can change my personality. Others, on occasion, seem to believe it is a character defect. I disagree, because that sensitivity is the very thing that enables me to be extremely compassionate, empathetic, and to love those around me with all of my being. I don't want to change it. I just don't want it to hurt me. How can I accomplish that?

I don't make assumptions. Something someone said may have been intended to hurt me, and it also may not have. I make no judgement on this because the truth is that I am not them and I cannot logically know of their intent. Admitting that I don't know their intent sometimes makes it less painful right off the bat. If it hurts, I simply let it hurt. I don't try to descredit it by telling myself that my perception is wrong. I just feel it - but don't dwell on it. I accept that they are also an invidual with different personalities, and if I do respond to them, I only do so after I'm done "feeling". When I'm emotional, I'll react with emotion rather than logic. I wait for the sting to pass so I can obtain a clearer perspective. I can then ascertain whether their remark or action is worthy of a response from me. I ask myself what I may be hoping to accomplish by responding - and then try to attach no expectations on their response.

I may come back after a time and tell someone. "You know, what you said the other day really hurt my feelings". What they choose to do with that information is up to them. I certainly can't EXPECT that they will apologize. They may stand firm in the fact that they did nothing wrong - and it was simply my perception of their words that hurt me and not the actual words. They may be open-minded enough to consider in the future that the delivery of their words, no matter what the intent was, was harmful to another person. They may not. They may simply be a jerk and not care. If I believe them to be that type of very insensitive person (the kind who doesn't care whether they hurt someone or not, simply because they have the right to say whatever they choose to), then I reserve my right to respond. I do not have to respond or give that person ANY more power over my emotions in the future.

Someone else may choose to sugar-coat things directed at me in the future, perhaps because they DO care if they hurt another person and aren't exactly sure what they said that might have been construed that way. So they may simply avoid any touchy subjects out of a desire to prevent me from feeling hurt in the future. I like this scenario the least of all, because I don't want to cause someone else discomfort in communicating with me, in attempting to make ME comfortable - that doesn't seem like a friendship. These are the people who actually DO care how I feel. It is in these situations where I try to communicate. I may repeat back to them what they said that hurt me in the way that I heard it - so they can correct any misunderstandings or assumptions on my part. Again, it has NEVER been productive for me to do this when I'm emotional.

I don't know if any of these skills would be useful to you, as well. If it's not, I hope you can at least take comfort in the fact that I, for one, do not see this quality in you as a character flaw. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Froz

{{{{Mimi}}}} Let me add another "label" to you.

[color:"pink"]HUMAN [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Can you see that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We're all different here. We've all handled our triggers, our reactions, our plans -- all differently. What works for some doesn't work for others. That's what's so good about this forum. We have so many different opinions and ideas of what works for us that we want to share with others.

I remember when I first posted my story here, someone, (I forget the ID but it had a lot of consonants! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) responded and suggested (I paraphrase)that I had browbeat my H for so long that he had finally got tired of it and had an A! -- And also asked a lot of questions that I didn't address. Well, after I cooled down a little <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I could see where they could have gotten that idea, by the way I posted. On an anger scale of 1-10, I was at least a 15 when I posted! But I did ponder the questions...to myself.

The moral being - take what you can use and leave the rest.

You are valuable to this forum, Mimi, for your experiences you share and I think even at this point, you and I will always be able to find something new to make a lightbulb come on in our heads. Just call it continuing education. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, just for the record, I was not making fun of you. Actually I was poking a little fun at Lemonman. The last thing I would ever want to do is hurt anyone and if it offends you so much I will delete my post. And my opinion of this episode may be unwanted but Ill chime in anyway. I found the original post from LM to be kinda tongue in cheek not hostile or sarcastic. Anyways I apologize if I've offended you.

What t/d 'bout the anger......

My answer: Give 'some' of it away. You never want to give all your anger away. Sometimes, it has it's benefits.

1st you find some type of symbolic closure. For you and then for you and your H. It is important you do this in 2 parts. Your inner healing has begun and slowly the adrenaline you kept in reserve to keep you alive is dwindling down.

You are coming back to a normal pace but you inerts m/b scared silly to try and trust again. Kinda like not being able to relax but now you must in order to do the right thing.

Here's a thought...... knowing you are having this hard time, imagine that as long as you stay in this state, your H can't relax either. He is constantly on pins and needles wondering if or when you will go balistic on him. Maybe you won't but he may still wonder. In fact he maybe doing a lot of wondering about you now.

Learn how to turn his wondering into his meeting an EN of yours. Know which one that w/b?

L.

Mimi, Sorry to jump into this so late, but it took awhile to get me into the new web site.

I know how you feel. Just earlier this week, my MIL (who is living with us) started working for the first time since the death of her husband last summer. But, with her going to work left my house wide open during the day, with the kids at school. My wife, an RN, had some of these days off. I started getting this panic like I should check and see if she is home alone, or is she taking advantage of the house being empty? See? I know how you feel.

The only things I can say is that those that have been thru this say it takes time...but it will go away.

Also, the way I got past that incident (and many others) is by my continual relying on the Lord to watch my back. I no longer feel the need to check up on my wife. Why? Because I know Jesus has my back. And if my wife is doing wrong, she cannot hide from Him. And I know He will make sure that the truth will come out, and that consequences are meted out.

I have tested this several times.I sat back, and let the Lord handle things over the last few months. You know what? All of a sudden, my wife comes up to me, telling me about something she bought with money she asked from me (and she asked for it for a different reason). She said that she had felt bad, and that it had been weighing on her mind for weeks...and she had to tell me. Guess WHO was weighing on her mind??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Jesus has my back!!

So, I guess what I am saying is that this is baggage. But Christ says you dont have to carry it. Everytime Satan (and that is who is putting these thoughts in yoru head) gets you to pick those bags up, you just say No. And decide that Jesus has said that you dont have to carry those, that He has taken care of all of that.

Lean on Him. When you have God watching your back, who else can be against you and win?

In His arms.