Here's an interesting (I think so anyway) tid-bit from our early recovery...

"Sharing feelings" ... I thought this would be an automatic positive thing for us during my H's sobriety ... and guess what I discovered about MYSELF >>>>> I only wanted to hear my H's POSITIVE feelings toward me !!! I was shutting myself off from the sharper feeling he had because I did not want to learn he was as wounded by our dysfunction as I was... and this was a major impediment to our recovery >>> ME!

His negative feelings, once shared, sent me into a tailspin of doubts and confusion.... not to mention biting defensiveness.

Women often proclaim they want their husbands to share their innermost feelings ... and it is not uncommon for the woman to react with ferocious negativity when the shared feeling from her man is not particularly complimentary about HER !!! (snicker) A trap for the newly sober spouse that's for dayum sure. Damned if you don't share your ~real~ feelings, and WAY WAY worse damned if you DO. (unless of course you conflict avoid and only share the good stuff >>> DON'T do this as tempting as it may be)

This is gonna be a huge test of your integrity, and you will need lots of meetings and AA support to make sure you DO IT ANYWAY despite any volcanic reaction on your wife's part. (kudos to Mr. Pep ... that's for sure ... I am one hellofa volcano ... red head and all that Irish stuff too)

So ... this takes a lot of swallowing and calming walks to get through.

Keep going to meetings ... this ain't over yet!

with admiration....

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh!... and about AA and Al-Anon meetings ... for awhile my H and I went to "double-winners" meeting which combined both groups ... it was very helpful for us and we learned appreciation for each other's hurdles.

Try not to get involved in a pissing match of who disrespected who more and all that making comparisons junk ... Just appreciate/acknowledge that both of you are wounded, and both of you participated in bringing the other to a place of wounding.

This is an important distinction ... a place of wounding rather than "YOU wounded me more than I wounded you" ... been there, done that, pointless crap all around. Try to avoid if possible.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My wife is Irish/German with the red hair and rivals Mt St Helen in fierceness.

I think we are in the 'I hurt more than you' pissing contest right now. My bladder is now drained and I encourage her to keep venting.

Went home for lunch today (big mistake). Wife was mad about something and trying to acuse me of an affair many years ago (long story). That lunch hour turned into a 3 hour lunch. At least we're talking and she's opening the conversation. Heard lots of incidents about my giving her no respect over the years. I didn't get defensive, but rather offered up what I was thinking during those events. Not to tell her she was wrong, but just let her know how I perceived things. Must of done it right beacuse her angry eventually defused.

This now day 4 of conversation. I hate to say this but I think this is giving me the wrong idea. It started with me calling her to task on the no affection thing and starting an argument Saturday night. Last time I started an argument things changed for the better too. So I found something that works. We had virtually zero arguments in our marriage. Maybe this is a kinda 180. Well let the discussions flow! Maybe now she'll get it all out and run out of fuel.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> my condolences... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Know how to break out of this? Just stop talking and touch her face lightly with both hands. Say:"I'm so sorry."

repeat as necessary

pretty sure she will be worn down and out of gas too

This is a process .... steps every day ... that's all just steps one after the other...
Get enough rest ... and don't forget to play games with your W too

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Play games? How - she still totally dispises me. She says she can't stand to be in the same room, even listening to me breath makes her mad - I asked her what it is that I do that makes her so mad - her response - exist.

No laughing at any joke I tell - no touching.

I have many steps to go from here.

Any pointers on playing games would be much appreciated.

Can you be funny and silly and make fun of yourself ?

Pep

Pep,

My ablity to be humorous seems to crash to the ground whenever she's around. I'm getting better, but still have a ways to go until I get to a comfort level. Your advice is good and I'm going to try.

****************************

Yesterday I came home to a very depressed wife. SHe later said she was having a hard time coping yesterday. Again saying no one understands her. I again said I want to.

I received a letter from Retrouvaille (a couples retreat) and she was mad about it. She told me the last person she wanted to spend a weekend with was me. She started crying a bit saying 'who can help me (her). She also said she just wants to go away and be by herself. I told her go, maybe to her friend's house in PA. I'd take care of things for a while. She ran upstairs and locked herself in the bedroom. I think she wanted me to follow her so she could [censored] about me not giving her space. I just didn't feel like chasing her anymore. About 5 minutes later she was back downstairs still on the 'no one understands' mantra. I asked her 'what would make you happy?'. All I got was an 'I don't know'. I reiterated my offer of taking care of evryone while she went away somewhere. I then went outside for a smoke and she came out minutes later telling me about her coping problem. I aksed her if anything in particular upset her today - she said no.

She wnet off finishing some planting and I started painting some door trim. Rest of the night went normal. Normal now is tolerating each other.

Over the weekend I asked what is it that I do that upsets her so. She was stumped for an answer. I offered up 'exsist?' abd she said that discripes it. Not much I can do about that.

Hi Mark,

I haven't posted in a very long time, but your story has several parallels to what I am currently going thru with my H and I felt I might be able to shed some light on your wife's side of things. I also hope that you might be able to enlighten me from the "other side" of this issue.

We've been married for 17yrs (June 3d), have one child DS12.

We are currently in round 3 of MC since 2002. I am filing for D at the end of this month, although I really hope that we do not follow it thru to finality. I love my H very much and want us to remain married, and I do not have a "secret friend" as your W appears to have.

Why the D then?
Because alcohol is the key ingredient that has been connected to almost every single bad experience I have had in my marriage.

Early on, I partied too (socially) - and I still enjoy a drink now & then. Then when our child came along, H wanted to continue, I was left at home alone. We used to fight because he would go out every night after work & drink with his buddies, coming home after dinner was cold and in no real shape to help me with our son.

Then I did what I thought at the time was reasonable - I negotiated with him. We agreed that he would go out ONLY on Friday nights, and he had until midnight. He always went to the same sports bar - one that I felt comfortable in myself - and this arrangement worked for us (him more than me) for over 10 years.

Very rarely did he chose to come home before midnight, and even more rarely skipped it altogether. (Only if there was some family committment - and even then he resented us for it)

Then, in spring of 2002, my H managed to fit an A into his Friday nights out. OW was "scheduled" into his routine for a month before our d-day occurred. After that, I insisted he stop the Fridays out, but he refused - only agreeing to come home by 9pm.

At that time, I felt that if I put the choice of "alcohol or ME" in front of him, I would lose.

Since 2002, I have routinely been bringing up the alcohol issue and what effect is has had on me and our DS. Fridays have changed a bit as H has cut back to where he now has a couple of beers with a buddy at his house nearby and is home when I arrive home from work.

But - Fridays are not the only time he drinks.
Drive by our house any day of the week when he is
not at work, and you will most likely find him (as he is now) in the garage with the door open, the stereo blaring, and a beer in his hand.

When you posted about how your wife said to you recently -
"So you feel lonely? How does it feel?"
I knew exactly what she meant by that and how she feels.

You may already know this, but as an alcoholic, you most likely have not really been PRESENT in your marriage. And for your W and I, 17 years of feeling lonely in our marriages is an eternity.

And that is just the times you are "checked out".
My H has a flip-side, another effect of the alcohol is that it feeds his already quick temper. I have suffered verbal & emotional abuse brought on by the effects of alcohol on my H.

Your original post mentioned that you heard that -
"spouses get so caught up in the disease that they have to recover themselves". There is truth to that - we spouses of alcholics do lose ourselves along the way in this.
We are so involved in dealing with the aftermath of the alcoholic's behavior and trying to manage daily life around the alcoholic, that we lose all sense of OUR wants, OUR needs.

I feel very deeply for your wife and her exressions of her hurt - "No one understands ME" and "Who can help ME?"
The attention has always been on the alcoholic, not the spouse.

A very important point to remember when she is talking about past hurts - is that she is talking now because she believes that you truly can finally HEAR her now.
She may believe that she is finally talking to the REAL you, not the alcoholic you. (You may not want to acknowledge this, but you have presented TWO people to your family over the years - the real you & the alcoholic you. Spouses & family members learn to adapt
themselves to which one that you are at that particular time. It's like living in a parallel universe)

I can completely relate to how you describe your wife's feelings & behavior towards you.

My unresolved anger is just below the surface at all times and is very hard to control.
So much resentment built up.
So much distancing a spouse has had to do to protect themselves from the alcoholic.
Protected by the numbness of the alcohol, the alcoholic is seeming oblivious to what havoc he causes around him.

I am pursing IC as well as MC.
I need to explore my own issues - why I stayed, why I didn't take a stand sooner, etc...
Whether my H & I stay together or not, I seem to have co-dependent tendancies that I do not want to continue in the future.

Well, this is getting longer than I intended, but I wanted you to know that what your wife is feeling and acting like is unpleasant yes, but normal.

I know this doesn't make it any easier on YOU, but like a WS, you took yourself willingly OUT of your M, and it will take much time, patience and love to work your way back in.

I hope your W can find the strength to open up to you
again, and I truly hope that you continue on your path
of sobriety whether your M survives or not.


Take Care,
Shelle

OK...

I see an error you made here. You "offered up" answer for your wife when she was "stumped" for an answer to your question. And, what you "offered up" was somewhat underhanded to boot. I'll explain:

2X4 on it's way ---> *thwack*

You put your wife into a "no-win" trap in the disguise of a question.

On the surface, your question might appear to be YOU showing interest in learning something about your wife's current feelings.

But that is only on the surface. You did not wait for her to formulate her own answer. She may have given you some insight into how she is currently functioning emotionally ... if she had been give enough space to turn it over and dig deep .... which takes some time for a defensive wounded person to do.

"What is it that I do that upsets you so?"

.... this is a pretty significant matter ... and now you are left knowing nothing about what her own answer may have provided you in the way of a roadmap back into her heart.

Answering for her was dumb. Don't do that anymore.

Answering for her made it all about you, again. How is that?

You took over. You did not listen. She may have spoken more with her body language than you could ever know. Did you watch her body language before you took over and answered for her? I highly doubt you did.

"... exist?..."

This answer you provided for her is something I doubt she would have said on her own. I really really doubt she would have said this.

If you had given her enough time and she felt safe enough, she may have opened up to you. But you cut her off at the pass... and here's my guess why ....

Intimacy scares the crap out of nearly every alcoholic ... because every alcoholic has anxiety issues up the ying-yang.

I mean, how could you even think about being intimate with a wife who cannot stand your very existance? You made sure to distance yourself from any intimacy with your wife ... by answering the question for her in the way you did.

NOW you get to say to yourself ... "Hey... I tried to make this woman happy. But she can't stand me. Not much I can do about that!"[/i]

Nice try Buckwheat .... I can see through your veil ... and you're still under there ....

under your veil
nursing your alcoholic insecurities wanting to be close
pushing closeness away
and making excuses

"SEE the woman can't stand me. I give up."

This will give you a grand excuse to go drink.

How close am I?

Can you stand this level of honesty?

Here's the deal.... YOU want this M to fail nearly as much as you want it to succeed.

If it fails, YOU have an excuse to blame, feel sorry for yourself, and maybe drown your sorrows in liquid oblivion.

I think you are much more hurt by this than you are letting on.

Do you actually want to be a man ... and step up to the plate and become intimate with your wife?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Shelly,
Thanks for decided to post. I'm seeing more of what I've done to those around me.

I'm a litt;e perplexed about the definition of intamacy. How is one considored 'intimate'. I try to talk about things in my past, to be truthfull about my feelings at the time and how I can now see how my judgment was skewed. But I can't vocalize everything that pops into my head out of fear of reprisal.

So of my thoughts aren't too nice either, so it may be best to keep them to myself until I really understand them.

My IC sometimes says he thinks I'm sabatoging my relationship. If it eneded right now I'd blame it all on her 'boyfreind' not my alcoholism.

I have to look behind that part of her and work on me and my opening up to people, even myself.

Pep,

I get your point too. I did offer up the answer more in anger than anything else. I should have waited for an answer. I should of just left the statement alone and I;m sure she would have thought about it.

I keep looking for magic to happen. I want something tangable to do now. A task that has a defined beginning and end.

Hi Mark,

You don't have to keep ALL your thoughts to yourself, just don't have expectations on your W's responses being positive.

If you REALLY want to get this resolved, you will continue to talk - continue to say out loud how you realize NOW how things you did affected her and the family in the past.

She may very well react in anger and give you h&ll for it,
but the point is that you have SPOKEN it. She will have heard directly from you that you HAVE learned, that you ARE trying to make amends, and that you DO want to save your marriage.

It's not pleasant when you are finally feeling good about yourself and the progress that you have made, and then someone comes along and bursts your happy bubble. But - if you were anything ike my H, you were damaging your W's feelings for a very long time and you can't just expect her to now jump on your recovery bandwagon.

I am probably in the place your wife was a year or so ago,
(without the male friend) when you were still drinking and
she could not see there being any change in sight.

You say that you have been sober since last July?
You also say that you continued to have alcohol in your home but were not tempted by it?

From the other side of this issue, that could have appeared
like you had the power to change all along and just didn't.
Could be a source of part of her anger.

So what was IT that prompted YOU to change?
Was July when you found out about her "friend"?
(Sorry for not researching your story)

I am curious to know what the catalyst was for you to
finally take this seriously and make the needed changes.



Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

Everyone has the power to change anytime they want to. My catalyst for change was my wife telling me she had thought about leaving, that she had made some bad choices in her life (and I was one of them).

I found out about her 'friend' about 2 weeks out of detox.

Yes it took almost losing her to change.

But...

The year leading up to that my problem was getting so out of hand I started to realize it. I could no longer wake up in time to get the kids off to school. My wife took on the whole burden. Some mornings I slept in so late people from work would call home and ask me where I was. Every other day was a bad hangover. Basically non functioning days. Those days I tended no to drink but was so ill feeling I was worse than being drunk. I just wanted to crawl into bed.

In early 2004 things were starting to really wear on my wife (meanwhile she had started her secret relationship). She became increasingly angry with me. I felt like checking out of the marriage myself. I also knew the alcohol was playing havoc in my life. I felt I needed to change and started 'looking into it'. At that time I could never picture my life without alcohol. I tried to cut back to some success, but still binged out way to much. I talked to my doctor (but wasn't really honest with how bad it was) researched AA and other methods of addiction resolution. My mindset at time was to turn myself back into a social drinker. Didn't work.

With our July conversation I knew what had to be done and took it upon my self to go cold turkey. Withdrawl kicked in and I ended up hospitalized (detox). Until then I didn't share what I was trying to do, possibly because of my fear of failure (don't want to make my failures known). Well almost stroking out forced me to go public with my issues.

Thats how I stopped.

My wife does harbor a lot of resentment and I have to accept that. I do admit I had a lot of short comings. But I feel like I blame alcohol too much. I feel I need to take the blame, that I am (was) the bad person.

Looks like my wife is finally thinking about alanon.

We'll see what happens.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification on the how & why's.

I asked because this 3rd round of MC for us is largely focused on my H's drinking and the resulting unsafe environment it has created in our home.

I am very close to filing for DV - mostly because of the alcohol & who it allows H to become. I don't believe that he is a BAD person, but he behaves like one when drinking.

Sounds like you were aware that your drinking was getting out of control - it was causing you some very obvious problems.

In our case, H sees himself as just a "social" drinker already, a "just a beer or two after work" kind of guy.
Problem is - that "one or two" has turned into a six-pack a day and it changes who I and our DS come home to.

H thinks he does not have a drinking "problem", that he has a "wife" problem. Sure, it's easier to blame those close to you for it than to look in the mirror, I understand that.

But he's right in some ways - to my knowledge, the alcohol has never interfered with his work, he's never gotten a DUI (has deserved it though - and I've thought about calling him in myself), and it does not appear to affect his relationships with his friends (probably inhances them).

So I am giving MC one more chance before I walk out.
Last week, our MC asked H to submit to an alcohol & drug
screening and to go to IC with a specialist in his office.
H was shocked - like "what, why ME?"

Other MC's have asked him before if he thought he had a
drinking problem and he answered that is was not a problem for HIM, but he knew it was for ME. Turned his anger onto me, blaming me, like a kid having candy taken away by his "mean mommy".

God I hate that attitude. It's way past time for him to grow up and see that his "harmless" hobby is a sickness, no matter whether it has caused him legal problems or not.

I am glad for you that you saw this in yourself and took
measures to correct it. I admire you for that and you should be proud of finally owning up to it and making the changes - no matter what the final outcome is.

If the opportunity presented itself, I could see myself
doing what your W has done in getting involved in a "safe"
relationship outside of the M. I hate to say it, but it is true.

I love my H very much - I believe more than he loves himself at this point, but I cannot sit and wait any longer for him to address the alcohol being a problem in our relationship.

I feel for him, because I know he has used the alcohol to numb feelings from his childhood and that he may not feel that he can cope without it. I just know that I cannot continue to keep myself & DS exposed to his emotional abuse and neglect just to "keep the peace".

MC is asking him to stop "medicating" himself and to work
through his issues with IC. He said he'd think about it.

I'm glad your W is considering Alanon.
I went for awhile, but the stories I heard were so much more intense and sad than ours that I did not really relate to the people there as much as I would have liked to. I may go again, but for now I am working on myself in MC and IC and that's about all I can handle right now.

So what are you thinking your next step will be?
Are you just going to wait her out?

Sounds like she may be more in the M than out if she is considering Alanon.



Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

I would say she is a very confused person right now. We are talking more and more lately and while painfull I see it as a good sign. If she really didn't care why would she even be discussing things.

I'd like to get some kind of MC going, but she is still steadfast against it, but I sense a lightening of her stance.

SOme of our discussions involve little key phrases like 'this has to change'. So I see hope.

This morning got a little out of hand. School fundraisers came up again. A dinner party is coming up and she's sent in her money already for her alone. Of course OM will be there. She has given me permission to go but I have to find my people to sit with as she will not sit with me (a table for the ladies). Well I let her know I don't feel welcome their as with the last fundraiser when she stayed out until 3 AM with no explanation.

Well during this dispute alanon was mentioned again by her. So thats something. She also brought up the weekend retreat - moreso that she won't go, but its on her mind.

As for other things my daughter is starting family counseling next week and my wife and I must attend. I'm hopefull we'll see how this is affecting the kids and come to our senses.

I dont plan on sitting quietly by and let my marriage go without as much as a whimper.

I guess next step will be go home and see what she's been stewing about all day now. She wanted to say something more but had a time constraint. She also was verbally debating whether or not to let me know what was on her mind. The other thing that got discussed this morning is her feeling I'm trying to isoltae her from her friends. The topic of her 3 AM night out came up. Someone else was there and said it ended at 11:30 PM. I was a bit mad about this and let it go. Well that got back to my wife. So now she says I'm being vengefull.

I've done some thinking about that today. She is very appearance concious. She wants to portrait the ideal wife and mother. She has put me through torture. It sickens me the way she presents herself to the world. I know that isn't good thinking but thats what it is. Do I have to work on this - yes. I just now understand it.

Again thanks for writing

I love this attitude !!!

YES!

Pep

Well I have to be respectful about it. Right now I feel we're in a "I'm more hurt than you" and a 'I'm right' cycle. Now to get out of it and allow my wife to exit it as well. We have to put the past behind us somehow.

Hi Mark,

I'd be suprised if your W was NOT confused.
I agree with you - she would not be discussing things if she was all the way DONE with your M. She still has doubts.

Sounds like she had written you off in her heart to a certain extent as the "bad guy". Then when the OM came
along, she saw that she had other choices than to just
wait for you to address the drinking problem.

I can only speak for myself, but for me it took a tremendous amount of time and hurt for me to come to the place where I could/can see my future WITHOUT my H. This has only ocurred after much soul-searching and admitting that I was in denial about the state of our relationship.

After going thru that process, I now have alot of reservations about going thru MC again and the process of putting our M back together. I suspect that your W is in this same predicament.

The doubt I have about our M is not in regards to the love I feel for my H, but instead the doubt is not being sure if I can open my heart up again and survive another disappointment. That's life.... I know.... everyone has
disappointments to face.

And there is no guarantee that my H would fail in his attempt to control the drinking, he may do very well at it.

The weakness I sense is in ME, not in HIM.

I feel that I have grown through this process and I want to continue that - I don't know that I can do that if I stay with my H.

So as much as I love him, I also have strong feelings that
we may be approaching the natural end of our relationship. And I am ok with that. I have accepted it and there is no drama.

Your W has seen that she has other choices after many years of feeling that she was "stuck" due to your behavior. She
has begun to think of a life outside your M. Part of your W's detaching from you was letting others know that not all was well at home and that she wanted out.

Then you stepped up to the plate and threw her a curveball.
Just when she was thoroughly convinced that you would not change, COULD not change, you did.

She had been convinced that your continuation of the drinking meant that you did NOT love her or your family as much as you loved yourself and the drink.

Now here you are in front of her... sober....
And she doesn't know how to relate to you.

I would not push the MC, I'd give her more time in IC.
But I would keep talking.

Keep reaffirming the lessons you've learned...

If she is saying things "have to change", it sounds like
she is considering staying - trying to picture what this
"changed" M might be like for her. It's a good sign.

If you haven't been too harsh about the fundraiser thing,
I would encourage you to go - especially if you did not in
the past. If my H did this, I would like it - especially if he smiled & waved from his table - or came over to the ladies table ocassionally and said hi, maybe a squeeze of my shoulder, etc...

I know there have been many times along the way that I have felt like a single parent - I wonder if your W has too?

The best thing you can do for your W and family is BE THERE. Be awake, be involved, and show them they are number one to you again.

Be careful in the counseling next week though.
Be prepared for the worst - answering for your drinking.
Concentrate on your daughter - don't let you or your W get caught up in blaming each other. Those sessions go fast, and your daughter sounds like she needs help - try not to let the session get taken over by your M issues. Try to keep the focus on what's best for HER.

I understand your W's hesitancy to bring up issues - she desperately wants you to know how she felt while you were "checked out" of the M, but she also is probably trying not to overwhelm you - afraid that it will cause you to start drinking again. It's a fine line the spouse walks.

As for her wanting to appear "perfect" to the outside world, I understand this need as well.

We spouses live in such an unpredictable emotional world that we compensate by trying to appear as if we have the perfect family.

Just don't look in that closet over there...
it's full to the ceiling of skeletons.

Our home, our cars, our activities...
They all belie the dysfunction ocurring inside our home.

I admire you for your attempts to clean out YOUR closet.



Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

Is your name really Karen?

I've heard simular things come out of her mouth. One was "how many more dissapointments can I take". She looks at my exposing alledged affair to OMW as a disspointment or the 'last straw".

Reading between the lines on some of her connversations hints at her staying. Thats the 'this has to change' type of stuff.

As far as single parent goes I've often felt that way too. She would work 12 hour shifts at least every other weekend and one weekday. She taught lamaze one eveing a week and goes to school another evening. I'm not saying she disn't do a lot with our kids and she does acknownedge my parenting skills, even now. Our parenting was more of 'tag team' approach. Our schedules totally revolved around 'coverage' of the children. I'd come home she'd have to run out or vica versa.

I'm aware that the counseling will undoubtedly focus on my drinking at some point. I've been talking to my daughter a bit about it too. I've told her my drinking was 'a problem'. I haven't come out and used the word alcoholic yet. I have asked her if they've covered anything on substance abuse in school yet. It seems they haven't other than saying drugs and alcohol are bad things.

I hear ya with the curve ball. Seems she had her mind all made up and then here comes Mark out of the alcoholic fog. I think the 180 I pulled was more than she could comprehend. My exposure to OMW was looked at by her as 'see that nasty Mark is still here'. In a way I think she was looking for him.

Yesterday she told me I was vengefull. I'm still thinking about that one. Her basis was me talking to others about our sitch. She cited an incident on my daughters soccer field when I found out about what went on on her 3 AM night. When asked why I wasn't there (by another parent) I angrily said 'I wasn't invited' and proceded to inquire as to who was there, in specific OM. That got back to her and she is accusing me of trying to isolate her. Thats the symptom of an abusive spouse, and I feel she's trying to convince herself I am one. She says she's seeing a side of me she never saw before. Well I endured many months of sever emotional abuse. But she doesn't understand how much of a toll that took on me. I saw a side of her I never saw before.

I feel the longer we stay out of any MC stuff the greater the divide we will build. Her talking about alanon is a good thing. I hope she doesn't feel her issues are minor compared to others. They're important to her. I felt the same starting AA. Wow these guys were really bad, I'm in the minor leagues compared to these guys. A problem is a problem, and if it's yours it's big to you.

Sje has been venting more of the things that bothered her in the past. I've been honest with her in regards to taking blame where balme is due and explaining my view point or thinking on others where the area is more grey. But I don't stop there, I go further and discuss ways things could have been handled differently. Typing this right now I think the next time I get in this mode I'll turn the discussion into a brain storming session.

Hi Mark,

Nope - I'm not a Karen, but I play one on TV... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We may sound alot alike, but it's circumstancial.
Where she & seem to really diverge is her having OM
and I have a really hard time seeing how she could,
as you put it, say that exposure of that relationship
was the "last straw".

She seems to have partially coped with her problems by
going outside your M - never a good idea, whether you
are M'd to an alcoholic or not.

I've been on the other side of the A thing - H had a brief
A in April of 2002. Alcohol was a big part of that too,
and he used it like a crutch to recover from the fallout,
further damaging our M in the process.

Although I can see myself being vulernable to an A, I can't see myself ever going thru with it - especially having been on the other side.

Nope, when I am done with the M, I am done.
That's the edge that I have been teetering on for awhile.

When to call it quits.
When is it too far gone?
When do I stop giving him time to change?
How long do I put my needs second to his need for alcohol?

Sounds like you guys may not have protected your M very well. Working different shifts, not much time together, your alcohol taking you out of things, her activities removing her from the house when you were there....

Seems like she was dealing with your drinking my just not
being around... I have done the same thing. You get to a point where you realize that he just isn't going to stop drinking - at least anytime soon, so you just live your life as best you can AROUND him rather than WITH him.

It's really painful.

To love your spouse, to want to be with them, but to have
almost every interaction tainted with alcohol, changing them into someone that we no longer know... someone that we cannot count on to love us back.

One of your earlier posts said that you did not think that your children realized that you drank. But then you went on to say that the youngest wanted to know why you hadn't drank in awhile and if you wanted a beer, even offered to get one for you. And your 10yr old was going to just put some in the cart at the grocery store?

Don't kid yourself.... they noticed.
How could they not?

Our DS knows to look at the recycled can stack that H has in the garage to see how many beers dad has consumed.

He knows how to start a conversation with his dad cautiously, gauging dad's level of "buzz" so that he does
not upset him. (which doesn't take much)

What kind of life is that for a kid?
And after awhile, it just becomes second-nature, "normal".

Has your daughter told you why she made the suicide threat?
With all that has been going on between your W and you, I bet your home has been a pretty painful place for her.
I really hope that she gets the help that she needs.

Yes - I agree that your W may be still looking for "bad Mark". She may even try to draw him out - so that she can say "See, he's still here." I am guilty of that as well.

It's hard to explain, but we become so used to dealing with the drunken man... the man who anyone would not blame us for hating... that it is very dificult to get past that and to learn to deal with the sober man.

We've developed a "dance" of sorts after this many years...
He drinks... I freeze up.
He argues... I try to ignore.
He isolates... I plan activites without him.

You have changed the steps in the dance that your W has been doing for many years now Mark. She is having trouble finding steps in this new dance that feel comfortable for her.

I don't agree with her about the "vengeful" part.
Even if you were totally nasty in your exposure, she had no right to be creating that relationship outside of your M.

She's wrong and she knows it - that's what's really p*ssing
her off right now. She can't blame YOU for it, SHE did it.

All that anger is about her disappointment in herself.
Her weakness.

The "isolating" comment is crap.
Just another weak defense because she knows SHE is wrong.

You said that you are seeing another side of her that you did not know existed, that you suffered emotional abuse too. I am worried that where I am at now, with my level of anger & hostility towards my H, that I am also doing more damage than good.

I am so angry at the time that was wasted by his drinking.
I don't know how to get myself out of this pit of anger.
That is why I am pursuing IC - we have no chance if I don't.

I still would not push the MC, although I agree with you that you need to be talking things over with a 3rd party.

Go to the family counseling, let her soften up a bit.
After a few sessions there, she may suggest MC herself.

I just hope that revisiting your drinking history does not
cause her to become even more angry and then you lose what
ground you have gained since stopping.



Take Care,
Shelle

It appears rumors are starting about my wife and OM around the school yard - yikes. Last thing I wanted to happen. But then I didn't stay out until 3AM, let alone staying out to 3 AM without a mention of were I was. My bad - not calling her on it, trying to be the 'nice' guy.

She now tells her friends she is afraid of me getting physical. Read the pamphlets, first sign is isolating the spouse - get it? She's trying another self-fulfilling prophecy. Accuse Mark of something and push all the right buttons until it actually happens. For the later half of last year she had me made out to be a jealous lunatic. That’s her excuse for using phone cards, making odd hour phone calls, and sneaking out of his vehicle when I pulled into a parking lot. Yep she set me up and got what she expected, all so she can say ‘see he is a jealous lunatic’. She is talking so much to her friends lately and ignoring what she did. I think she is just trying to convince herself she has no blame in this.

My daughter’s issues are the fear of divorce, the fear of losing a parent, the welfare of her younger siblings, depressed mom and dad. In short she feels its up to her to protect everyone. Amazing girl, but a 12 year old should not think this way. I can understand why she though about acting out.

My wife also accuses me of pumping the kids full of propaganda. Also something she voices to her friends. She says she fears leaving me alone with the kids implying I would harm them or turn them against her.

As far as my drinking coming up in family therapy I don’t fear it. In fact when I talk about that with my wife it seems to have a soothing effect.