Mark -

As I've been reading your thread, I've been thinking that the problem with your daughter is that she is the oldest, and has taken on the responsibility to protect the family. That is what happened to my oldest son, whose dad was an alcoholic.

Even though you think the children didn't notice anything, I'm quite sure they did. It is the old elephant in the living room thing, that no one talks about.

While you say you have put up with months of emotional abuse, your wife has probably put up with years of it. You would have to be married to an alcoholic to understand. I can remember thousands of days and events ruined by my WH's drinking.

Your family didn't get in this situation in a few months, and it won't get healthy again in a few months.

Oh, and I say my husband WAS an alcoholic because it finally killed him.

Good luck to you and your family. Hang in there, and congratulations on your success and efforts.

Yeah I realize I wasn't there as much as I should have for her. I'm sure some things would fall in the emotional abuse catagory. But I'm talking about 3 months where any sentance she said was a total attack at me, so loaded with swear words. Her leaving for work: Me "good night" her "f-u". Other time she would talk in double meanings in front of the kids. That irritated the crap out of me.

Oh and the ever popular I hate you.

These were daily assualts and I stood there are took it poker faced. It wasn't until I reached my breaking point and I erupted did she back off.

I know the family is hurting. You hit the nail on the head with my oldest. Thats what the therapist said.

Now her big thing calling me vengefull. She also has started telling people she's afraid I'll become violent. I can't and won't take this slander. Well the rumors are starting about her. My bad, I leaked it indirectly when talking about her 3AM night.

Mark -

I don't think you are understanding me. It may be a male/female thing. I don't know how long you were drinking in your marriage, or how you behaved.

I think sometimes alcoholics tend to minimize how their drinking affected their family. When I finally left my husband, he told everyone that we had a great marriage, but I wanted to ruin it.

He didn't mention the 10 years of holidays that were spoiled because he got drunk, the endless days and nights I spent alone while he was out with his buddies, the run-ins with neighbors, the police. He didn't seem to remember when I came home from work to find him passed out, and my 2 year old and 5 year old running wild in the house.

I hope that you will realize that her anger probably comes from fear. It is a fact that usually the alcoholic's spouse is as sick as the alcoholic. Now you have become sober (good for you!), but she is still somewhat sick. Please be the leader and come along beside her. Let her know that you love her, and are very sorry about your failures in the past.

Believer,

Maybe I'm one of those that thinks my damage was minimal. I'm sure some damage occured. I thought thinks were ok until last summer. Obviously they weren't. I feel I caught my problem before I really did hit rock bottom. Yes I feel my wifes actions caused a lot of ruin in the marriage.

I probably am under estimating the damage caused mt family.

My big worry now is this latest rumor. I did ask a lot of questions and it ended up getting back to OM who was very quick to inform my wife. Of course it's been colored by someone.

So my wife thinks I'm trying to hurt her and isolate her.
She's really mad under it all.

I don't want to say - well you started this with OM friendship. Then you messed with my sanity for months. Lucky nothing worse happened.

Hi Mark,

Boy - you two really have your horns locked, don't you.

A real battle of "who hurt who more"...
Except in this battle, there is no winner.
And the kids are losing big time.

If your wife is mad, it is with herself.
She's just taking it out on you.

She created the situation with the OM, giving reason for there to be questions.

And - why the H&LL did you not question the 3AM night?!
You guys were more "disconnected" from each other than you let on if that behavior was not questioned. My H would not have been sitting up waiting for me to come home, but I sure would expect a serious questioning the next morning!


Why would she being going thru so much trouble to "set you up" as you claim?


Are you saying that you have been violent in the past?
Is that why she has told her friends she fears you?
Don't lie to yourself - if you've raised a hand to her in the past, she has a very valid fear.

Sure, she could be slandering you and making you out to be the bad guy, but why then stay? Most people make a case against the spouse to justify an A, then many leave the M.

Why would she want to stay - and just keep "poking" at you?
Living with an alcoholic myself, I know that would NOT be
a smart thing for me to do - even on his sober days.

I guess my point is - what is SHE getting out of this?

You say she is talking to her friends a lot.
If she laid out her living conditions since being married to you, what do you think someone would tell her to do?

Are you just upset that you "woke up" too late in your M?
Are you ready to accept that it may just be a case of...
"too little, too late" and move on?


What did you mean by this?
Again - were you violent in the past?
I'm seeing red flags here.


Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

Never raised a finger to her. Never even came close.

She managed to get my jealous side out big time, one that even surprised me.

Maybe it is too little too late. And yes I am very mad at myself.

I fell into one of her traps with D12's softball game during communion party. It was a test, I guess to see if I could read her mind.

Now with the rumors starting things will get worse before they get any better, if they get better.

How could things have been worse? I could have come out and told people my wife has a boyfriend. Oh the things I thought about, letting loose a whole school email, telling the principal about the affair of 2 school board members, telling the pastor, etc. Thats what I mean by worse. I controled myself knowing that would just leave scorched earth.

Wht didn't I say anything about the 3AM BS? I expected a defensive response from her. Somthing along the lines of 'I don't have to tell you anything'. WHat I did say the next morning (I wasn't waiting up) was what time did you get in? She said about 3 and gave an account of the event running to about 1AM and it taking a while to clean up. No mention of going to the bar. I knew better the event was scheduled to run until 11 PM which it did, but they were out of there by 11:30 according to this guy (who stayed to help cleanup). Yeah I should of said something more, but it just would have been argumentive. At that point all I could say was 'I don't believe you'.

Wife is also mad at me for S7 not being invite to OM's D7's communion party. OM didn't invite him, not me, not OMW (OMW has told me my S7 is welcome anytime.

I son't know if I should try to explian the 3AM soccer field leak or just let it pass. I feel bad rumors might be starting. I just got real upset and acted real impulsively asking questions, casually, but I did ask a lot.

I don't want to move on without my wife of 17 years. I don't want to convert my children into children of single parents. I am mad at myself because it seems I just make things worse every day.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for clearing that up... had me worried. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

My H has been physically "intimidating", but stops short of actual contact because he laughingly says he's "too smart" to do that. Well, I went ahead & filed a police report a few weeks ago - since *I* am also "smart" enough to know that assault does not have to involve actual contact.


Not following this.... explain?
Relates to OM's D7 communion party mentioned?

I agree that the "scorched earth" approach would not help.
Only if you wanted to DV and this would even the "score".

I'm going to go back to one of the earlier posts on this topic and quote Gibby2 -

What are you doing to go in the direction Gibby2 mentions?

You said OM's marriage was "in trouble" per OMW.
Have you checked back in with her to see how THEY are doing?

I would let the 3AM thing drop like a hot potato.
If you - the one that apparently started the rumor, let it
go and do NOT feed it, it will die off sooner.

W is embarassed.
If it was totally "innocent", she would not be making such a fuss.

I can see where maybe she started to lean on an understanding guy, talking to him about the kids, maybe your M. She may have trusted him and even talked about you and your drinking and how it hurt her and your family.

She needs to replace that OM with a really good counselor.

I'm glad that you are still fighting for your M.
Keep loving her through her anger.
See how the counseling goes, then try for MC.


Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle, the trap had to do with D12 wanting to go to her softball game during my sons communion party. She asked early in the week and I said I'd think about it. Then Friday she comes outside and asks if she can go, said mommy said to talk to me. Well I assumed mommy said ok. Wrong, mommy said no. Now I'm supposed to read her mind. Obviously D12 played us, but wife just blames me for telling her ok.

Talked to OMW today, she says things are getting better, almost restored. An amazing 2 weeks for them. Makes me wonder if rumor (which I know he heard) has shocked some sense into him and some distance from my wife.

Wife has been in therapy for over a year. Don't know what she gets out of it, don't know what she tells IC either.

As far as Gibbs goes I guess I have let go in some sense. I feel less emotional about her outbursts. I do have more and more happy moments, but all are away from my wife.

Well tommorow I leave for a 2 day business trip. Welcome break for us both I'm sure. Wonder if I'll get a kiss goodbye.

I can see my wife trying at times to be nicer. I really have to admit that. But she still carries a big grudge.

Hi Mark,

Got played by the 12yr old, hmmm?

I know how that feels - our DS just turned 13 last week.
I now am the mother of a "teenager"... still getting used to that word.

Sometimes I have felt like DS has played us so easily because of the tension between us - he doesn't have to try all that hard, we are so distracted with our M stuff.

Glad you got the OMW's current perspective on the state of their M. Hopefully she is not in denial or being lied to.From some other comments you have made, it seems that OM has pulled away, and that it is your W that is pursuing
contact. Not ideal, but at least you know that OM is not initiating as well.

It's good that you are having more happy moments - but like you said, they are away from your W. Any way that you guys can change that? Still working opposite shifts? How about that weekend retreat - still considering it?

My H & I did a "Marriage Encounter" weekend last fall.
At the time, my resentment level was sky-high and I almost canceled, but we needed to TRY something. The thought of being captive for 3 days in a hotel with H was not a pleasant thought, and I wondered if we'd both survive it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Even DS thougt it was not such a good idea - when I told him that his Grammy was coming to stay with him for the weekend, he asked where we were going. When I told him, he looked at me and said, "Mom, I'll pray for you..." then busted out in giggles.

The weekend was good - it lived up to my expectations.
We became closer, learned an alternate way of communicating that felt safe for both of us.

The only thing I would caution you on, since your W seems to be of a similar mood as I was at the time, is that they
did kind of "wink-wink, nod-nod" the exercises as if you were going to go back to your room for a love-fest. When you can barely stand to be within arms reach of your spouse, this can be a bit annoying.

While there were no "fireworks" for us that weekend, we
did have 2 1/2 uninterrupted days together, which was focused on US and our M only. It didn't solve our problems, but we did come back feeling closer to each other than when we left.

Well, have a good trip.
And hey - you'll get a kiss goodbye if you GIVE her a kiss!

Don't wait for HER to approach you - begin acting as if you already have the M you want - and maybe she will soften... or not... but could it really hurt that much to try?


Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

I want to do the retreat weekend. It's not 'Marriage Encounter' its called retrovaille. Its for poeple who are really having issues. I don't think they'll be doing the wink wink stuff.

Wife says she doesn't want to spend a weekend with me, and honestly it kind of scares me too. I just hope she keeps the weekend open.

I was a bit suprised in the difference of OWM in 2 weeks. Things better already. Maybe 2 weeks ago I got her on a bad day and yesterday was a good day? Well I know he heard the rumor. I'm sure he is worried about it. Maybe he'll finally realize there are consiquences for his actions. Why did he become so 'understanding' of realtive strangers problems? Sounds to me like he is some kind of preditor. He hinks it's more his tail between the legs and running home.

I do kiss here everyday if I can. At night its a kiss on the back of her head. She refuses to roll over. While I wish she did I'm OK with that.

SHe has to drive me to work today. I do plan on kissing her and going for a hug too!

Just an overnighter be back Thursday night.

I found this place a month or so after finding out my W had had A. After reading hundreds of threads here since, I've realized I basically did EVERYTHING a BS is not supposed to do X 10!!!!

I "fell of the wagon" and drank heavily(big No No for alky) and that fueled the anger into words spewed like venom for months into what I would have thought would be the Point Of No Return for our M. I said stuff(some of which I didn't remember until reminded of later...wince) to my wife that no woman should have to endure. I easily "forgot" all about the years of neglect and pointed a finger drunkenly at the affair and raged on and on and on about it as if...

I'm reminded here of lyrics from an old Zep song: "The price you pay to nowhere has increased a dollar more"

So after sobering back up(It took a weekend trip to ICU and then even later, a day tour of Miami's jail system to bring me back to my reality) I've realized now I was in fact cursing my own alcoholic self at some point during the past few months and was using my W as some kind of twisted soundboard to bounce the pain off of. My alcoholism is partially what led to my wife having affair in first place. She spent years trying to peel away at my cocoon of dry drunkeness to get me back and then endured four months of active drinking and my mouth this year alone. Yet, after all of that, there she was by my bed when I woke up in the hospital and there she was again spending eight hours waiting outside a jail for me to be released on charges of disorderly conduct.

If there is a Hell on earth, it very well could be located somewhere deep inside the walls of Dade county jail below the surface of its toothpaste graffiti. There I stood in a crowded, smelly jail wondering if the woman I screamed at the night before would be there for me. I had only one phone call...

She now attends family night every Wednesday with me at my Out Patient Program and Today I consider myself to be a very lucky man to have a woman like mine.

Considor yourself lucky. Your wife came and bailed you out and is participating ing your recovery. If my outpatient program involved my wife, but it didn't.

I didn't end up in the Nassau County Jail and I have not fallen 'of the wagon' (slip). I think they call that the 'not yets' I like to say 'not ever'. My biggest temptations come when I'm happy. At my sons communion we had lots of guests at our house and I was in a very ggod mood. Thats when I thought about having a 'cold one'. I didn't but the toughts were there.

I'd like to think if I ended up in jail my wife would bail me out. I think she probably would, at least out of human decency.

I still have a hard time grasping my drinking had such an effect on her.

Hi Mark,

Glad to hear that you didn't give in to the temptation to have a "cold one". You should be proud of yourself for that. It may seem like a small thing, but those small things add up to big things with time.


It never ceases to amaze me that other people can see it, the spouse obviously sees it, but the alcoholic cannot see it.

On yesterday's Dr. Phil show, he had an alcoholic husband who's wife beats him in an angry rage when he is drunk. She doesn't feel that way about him when he is sober, but seeing him drunk, stumbling and slurring his way around their house, or passing out, she goes ballistic. So bad that he has ended up the emergency room.

They both denied their behavior was "that bad" until they were shown the tapes from cameras installed in their home.
It was pretty bad, and the kids would go running.

My H & I were watching the replay of the show during primetime last night and after watching awhile, I turned and said to him that I could understand her anger. He was shocked - he thought that SHE was the messed up one.

Although I don't condone her behavior, I could see that it was a gut response to her husband's abuse of alcohol and that she felt trapped by his choice to drink instead of be actively involved with the family.

ANY activity that takes you out of your normal personality or that removes you from being available to your family is a problem. It could be a hobby, work, etc...

It is especially hard to take because the CHOICE is made to drink rather than be involved with your family & spouse. How can they NOT take that choice as a personal rejection?

Hope things are going well for you.

We went to MC last night and were basically "cut loose" by
counselor #3. He said he did not feel that it was in our best interests to keep counseling us as a couple when there was the abuse/alcohol issues to deal with first. Need to create a safe environment before we can proceed with couples counseling.

I am upset because I am struggling. I am hurting.
And now, because of H not being able to control his drinking, *I* have lost a counselor who I really connected with. (Anger & resentment level is rising...)

His last advice to H was to again refer him for an Alcohol
Assessment. He gave him a phone number of his supervisor, who specializes in that area. H said he would call, but I have heard that before. Last fall he was given a referral to an Anger Management counselor and never picked up the phone.

I am waiting until the end of the month.
If no appointment has been set by then, no interest has been shown in proceeding with addressing these issues, then I will be filing for DV. Sad, but necessary, I feel.


Take Care,
Shelle

Hi Shelly,

Sorry to hear another couselor down. Well you can always go back if he gives up his drinking. I never dreamed of a life without alcohol, but I'm living it and it ain't all that bad - well I don't miss the alcohol at least.

Don't know what anyone can say to get someone to stop. I had the advantage of detox for about 10 days, and I wanted to stop. Once out of detox I was scared out of my mind. Rehab centers had appointments that had me waiting about 2 weeks out. With detox it's like they get you have way across the ruver then stop the boat and have you swim the rest of the way.

I went to an AA meeting the first night out. It helped. I listened to others with simular problems. Amazing the common threads others had.

The theory every program in the US works under is stop drinking - period. If you don't have the first one you can't have the 12th one.

I got back from my business trip last night to no fanfare just a 'hi'. This morning a brief discussion started about my talking to OMW lately. OMW approached my wife the other day and invited her into her car to chat. My wife now says leave that family alone, I told her OMW has left me an open invite to call and my wife should also leave them alone.

Other than that there hasn't been much talk about things. I know my wife is dodging the rumors around school. She still thinks the worst about me. I think I see some thawing, but no where's near the turn around I hope to see.

Yes alcohol took time away from my family, but now I'm back. The resentment is intense, but she has to deal with that. I'm here to help.

Today's the big day my D12 starts family therapy. My wife, D12, and myself are to appear. Time to face ourselves in front of an educated neutral party. I got a mild case of the butterflies already.

Hi Mark,

Good luck with the family counseling today.

Don't let yourself get too nervous, this is a good thing.
Just go into it with the intent to help your daughter.
Anything that you and your W may get out of it for yourselves is just secondary.

If the attention turns to you, just have an open mind about what is said, consider their feelings before speaking - especially if you start feeling defensive.

Those hour-long sessions go by fast.
I hope your counselor is a good one!

Speaking of counselors, ours called me on Friday to say that something I had said in Thursday's session had stayed with him all night and he wanted to talk to me about it.

When he had told us that he did not feel he should continue to couples counsel us due to the alcohol problem, I said that I felt "like I was back where I started" when I made the initial call for help for me and DS.

He agreed with me - and has now asked that DS and I continue to come see him. He will help us with dealing with H and whatever I decide to do regarding staying or leaving.

I feel better now - this guy had us pretty much figured out in two sessions, and I was not looking forward to having to find someone else and start the process all over again.

So I have an appointment on Thursday evening - we are going to come up with a safety plan and exit strategy for if it comes to that.

On the good side, H made the call to the referral counselor for the Alcohol Screening and IC. WOW - that is big for him. Definitely a step in the right direction. Admitting that he may actually have a problem.

I am cautiously optimistic, but still preparing for the worst-case scenario.


Good Luck!
Shelle

Family couseling was an awkward afternoon. The 3 of us spend 45 minutes not accomplishing much. I opened my mouth about my wifes new freindship with our D12. Reasin being is D12 called her mother a moron in fun last week. I was trying to get at wife had it coming. She was trying to be a teenage friend and as the old saying goes 'familuarity breeds contempt'. Well that caused a fight in the lobby. While D12 was alone with therapist for last 15 minutes. Somehow we even managed to get on the topic of our house's architechure, my wifes choice of schools for the kids, etc.

Well next week therapist wants to see wife and me without our kids. Wife now threatening to pull totally out of counceling and take daughter with her. This is the lenghts my wife goes to to avoid putting out there whats really wrong. My feelings are she can't her faults. Funny thing, when I sat there today and in front of my daughter admitted I should be more firm with her, that I let a 12 year old walk all over me thats ok. Say she started acting more like a friend than a mother and I get the mother load of a lifetime of gribes dropped on me.

Wife wants to get D10 involved as well, since D10 is upset about telling me about a time wife and OM were together. My fault again. Also mentioned D10 said something about wife and D12 being best pals lately, and wife went crazy over that, but not in front of the theraist.

Well Tuesday should be an interesting meeting, just me and the wife - now I have butterflies big time.

Had counseling session with wife today. I was my D12's counselor. The purpose of the session was to figure out where we stand as a couple. The couseling for my daughter just began and the couslor wanted to get more background on us. I fell on my sword about my drinking and how I felt it impacted the family. I also brough up wifes friend and all the insecurity it caused. I was then told by my wife she has no love for me.

All in all not productuve about getting us together. Later we talked for an hour in the parking lot and my wife wants to split up but is held back out of fear she is making the mistake of her life. We bantered back and forth till my wife called it beating a dead horse.

Now I hear rumors are running through my kids school (amounst the parents) about my wife and other man. She stayed out to 3am one night at a school event. I ran into a friend the next day and he asked why I wasn't there, I told him I wasn't invited. I asked when the event ended and if wife and OM went out with them afterwards - his wife was in earshot and she grew suspicious. She told OM's sister in law (her close friend). OM sister in law talked to OM about it, so thats a rumor on one front. Also D10 brought something up about it during a playground skirmish. What ever the source the rumors are out there.

So now my wife has something more to be mad at me about.

I spoke about couples counseling again - she refused. After speaking about it came down to she is just against it because I'm for it.

So much resentment - I hope it can be healed.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Would you say that the session with just you & W went as you expected? Doesn't sound like there were any real surprises.


How this is worded makes me think that you are still defensive and denying the severity of the impact that your drinking had on your W and family. Are you?


Good to bring it up - counselor should be aware it happened, for historical sake.
But - what are you trying to accomplish here?

It sounds as if you are clinging this as your one negative example of W's behavior that is strong enough to stand up to your drinking problem. Is that it?

If it WAS/IS an A, is there anything new to prove it?
You seem to be going back to the same info, stuck on pointing out - "look what SHE did". (I am in no way condoning her behavior, but again - it looks alot like deflection on your part.)

If it was NOT an A, you are just pushing your W further away by fixating on it. (Her choice to turn outside her marriage for comfort was totally inappropriate - but your choice to be an alcoholic was just as inappropriate.)

The paragraph reiterating the "rumor" is an example of how it seems that you are trying to deflect the attention to your W. Has anything NEW happened that would constitute you to still be concerned? Rumors will die eventually if there is nothing happening to substantiate or fuel them.

Oh come on... you know what the source was. See below...

Had you heard any "rumors" before this incident?

She's detaching.
She sees a stale-mate.
Your drinking vs. her inappropriate friendship.

You are stuck on which is "worse".
Does it really matter?

You both weakly turned to something (or someONE) else when you were experiencing stress in the marriage.

Very self-defeating thought, wouldn't you say? Sounds like you still have some alcoholic/victim thoughts sticking around.

How are you dealing with those without using alcohol?


Take Care,
Shelle

Shelle,

I see her inappriate relationship as a signifacant event. Without I would not have had anything to tell OM's wife. That is the incident my wife refers to as the time she lost any love she had for me. That started all the divorce talk.

Yes I fell on my sword. I also talked about my failure to fully comprehend it's impact on my family. I reiterated I did it (sobered up) for her and the family. I do enjoy it's benefits, I feel much better about myself and life in general. I'm a better person for it and I know it. Yes at first I had a minimalist statement when I got started talking. Interesting thing in the parking lot after. I drank a lot of beer and but on significant weight. I'm 5-10 and weighted about 215 when I stopped drinking. Today I am about 170 lbs and holding. People all over town see this and make compliments, even to her. She outright hates the comments. I've also improved as a person, her family has noticed and commneted on that (previously I had in-law issues), again this disturbs her. Then spirituality, one night I went to a spritual awaking type thing at our church instead of my planned AA meeting. Well it got back to her I was there. Again bad feelings eminated from my wife, she was livid, not that I skipped an AA meeting, but the fact I was investigating deeper spirituality.

Resentment - I'll say.

Other parts of our discussion in the parking lot waffled back and forth between her inappropriate relationship. I told her it was a significant issue for me and therefor it was a significant issue. I also went back to talking about not fully understanding her resentment but getting there slowly.

I also let it loose in therapy and in the parking lot what I labeled delusional thinking. She said she snuck out of OM's truck in school parking lot because she was affraid I'd make a scene, a drag him out by the neck and beat him with a bat scene. Candidly the idea appeals to me, but I am not a violent person and haven't been in a fight since 9th grade.

I could have the source of rumors and thats a fact, but also my D10 was in a school yard altercation and the subject came up as part of the name calling round. This preceded, by days, the soccer field incident. I told my wife I didn't mean any harm when I got inquisitive and she belives that. I told her the best way to fight rumors was not to respond to them and let them die. Thats why I'm greatful there are only a few weeks of school left. My wife has also 'confided' in some of her school friends about things. That I did not know until a few hours ago. I did get defensive about it by saying if she didn't stay out until 3AM with OM there wouldn't have been a problem. I did say to my wife 'gee your home late' - she said the auction ran late, no mention of going out afterwards. One of the most troubling things was the soccer field guy didn't recall seeing either of them at the bar, but could recall about a dozen others in my wifes clique. He's know us for years.

So yes I still find it in me to be right or to get some acknowlegement of wrong doing. She perfers to look at the whole thing as being caused by my alcoholism. I agree that its a contributed factor, but the choice was hers to get mixed up with this guy.

I want so bad to let this go, but she keeps telling poeple thngs went extremly bad around christmas as doesn't tell them what exactly happened. SHe makes it sound more like she had an awakening.

I also told her today to feel free and unload on me about things in the past and lets talk them through. While I expect her to be emotional, I don't want her screaming beacuse I tune out and just want to escape when people do that to me. All I remember was a screaming person, not any detail of what they said.