Well, as you all know I am the FWW and the past 4 weeks have been tough.

H has been very distant and has asked me not to touch him, or ask for hugs, or tell him I love him, as he needs his space.

It's hard, but I am trying to show him love in other ways.

Over the weekend I found out that the girl that he said he had a chance for an affair with, and up unitl 3 weeks ago, was still telling me he would never hire her, is working with him and was there alone with him on Sunday.

I also found out that he had phoned her from church - and when I asked him who he had called when he left the sermon - he told me just a client who had called 3 times during the sermon (vibrate) - this is true did call the client back. When I confronted him about working with her, he told me he didn't think I needed to be told as he knew it would be a drama.

But he is the very one who has always told me and still does, that if you have to hide it from your spouse, then something isn't right. He then told me it was a different girl, and then when I told him the same way he wouldn't forget a name associated in things like that with me, I don't forget. Then he said he was imagining it, then 2 minutes later he said he had made it all up to feel not so alone.

The thing is that a month ago, when him and my dad had a heart to heart he told my dad about this girl. When I was talking to my dad yesterday about this, he said - yes he told me about her.

When I told him on Monday that I wasn't comfortable with her being there, he told me that he wasn't going to stand in the way of her career because of something he made up. He said he would leave me before he had an affair.

I believe him, I know he would leave me, but this is what I am now fearing. Well all our close friends who are male, I won't allow near the house when he is not home, and make up excuses for, and I gave up a circle of good online Mom's who once or twice confessed some of their secrets in the club and he felt uncomfortable with me being there - so I left them months ago, and wont accept their phone calls, etc. but yet this girl's career is now more important than me.

Also - I discovered that he has me blocked on his MSN - he told me he is never online anymore, but last night I saw on his laptop he was on when I wasn't around. And that I am blocked.

He also all of a sudden was worried about money last night when he hasn't been in awhile - and right now we are fine.

I think maybe I am just being paranoid - but in the same way I wasn't here in the marriage anymore when I had the affair, I don't think he is here in the marriage anymore at all, and I don't think he will have an affair, but I think he may be getting ready to leave.

So my question is to you BS's - in the first 6 months, when your WS was there and willing, and talked about everything - did you ever leave the marriage? Did you ever block off all communication with your WS, except the normal his - good mornings? Did you start hiding things from your WS?

I have so much faith that we will come through this, but I know it takes him too to get through this, and I fear he has given up and believes he can never have something with me again.

Sorry if this sounds paranoid or if it offends BS's as I may sound very memememe - but I am terrified right now and I just needed to talk.

-ds

DS,

As a BS, I hate to admit it, but yes, since d-day(about 5 months), I have hidden some things from my H...and to be even more honest...they were usually at times that I shouldn't be..when I was feeling like I wanted to leave(I came up with a whole plan and everything)...or when I started chatting online...I even admit to wanting revenge. I know, I know...very wrong...but I think most BS think about that at one point...even if they never admit it.

I still have trouble sharing my feelings during my bad times, b/c I can be pretty ugly in those moments..but I have never cut off physical touch for more than a day...not even right at d-day. I NEEDED my H's touch...but I know many who don't.

It seems like you are truly remorseful, and so is my H...but sometimes it ISN'T enough. I look at him and say I know you love me now, I know you are being a model H NOW...but you weren't and I will always have to remember that.

Also, IMHO, it is a very bad idea for your H to be that close to temptation. I often thank God that He moved my H and me out into the country right after d-day so that I would not be tempted to act on my revenge desires. I think they are as strong, or even sometimes stronger, than the ones going into the WS's affair. So, you should remind him gently, that yes, you do not have the right to ask him anything right now(even though I know others here will say you do), but that you are trying so hard to work on the problems and you are very afraid about this woman right now. Or ask him point blank if he is planning on leaving?

I know that when I finally did tell my H about my hiding things..he was very upset...but for the first time he realized what he had done to me. He said that if he felt hurt just for me keeping an email account he did not know about, and chatting online...then he could understand the truth depth of saddness I must feel. It was a major turning point in my healing.

Have you asked your H to post here? Or anywhere? It might help.

Anyway, I have completely rambled...sorry my thoughts are not more organized. I wish you the best.

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hi DS

That behaviour doesn't sound like the Sprint I talked to all night a few months ago.

Maybe my situation isn't relevent to you because in my sit it wa sME who worked hard to end Squids affair and recover our marriage, while in your case you are at least an equal willing contributor. So the dynamics may be very different.

But I can say that from my own experience I felt 'entitled' to a revenge affair as a punishment and a salve.

I didn't have one of course but I even drew up a mental shortlist of who it would be with.

But why would I inflict THAT pain on a person I love KNOWINGLY ? Squid almost killed me, but she did so without a thought for me, not KNOWING I'd be devastated. I couldn't to that knowingly.

Also I DID enjoy the attentions of women. I did not flirt but its a self-validating thing to know that another woman might feel I am attractive even if my wife didn't for a while.

Again I didn't persue any of this, but I can understand if someone does.

DS, it sounds like a discussion concerning transparency is needed,without any DJs.

Strange to giv my usual BS advice to a FWS but tell Spirnt that you would not SHACKLE him to you and that he is freeto leave you if she wishes BUT that you loive him and want to work on your marriage with him, if only he will play his part, which includes transparency and giving YOU the chance to meet his ENs.

Recovery is a tough Gig DS, I'm 9 months in a having a rough patch myself, so I know how hard it can be.

You guys had a GREAT start to recovery, and I'm sure you have sand and love enough to sty on track.

if sprint would liek to mail me I'll post my address up.

Bless you both DS, stay with it

{{{DS & Sprint}}}

DS - Not sure if I have the right advice but your thread worries me. It sounds like your H is setting up a scenario to have an affair. Everything he seems to be doing right now points to that IMO. I hope I'm wrong, but you need to set YOUR boundaries. Just because you had the affair doesn't mean he has a right to treat you with no respect. You are still a human being with feelings and you are his wife. Maybe you should flat out ask him if he is leaving and tell him that you believe what he is doing now is setting your marriage on the road to divorce if it continues. That isn't meant to scare you, but I don't see how things can improve if another person is in the picture. If he doesn't want it to improve then he has the responsibility of owning up to that and telling you that he does not wish to reconcile. I hope that you both find the courage to have an honest conversation about this. Good luck.

He's not the same as he was then - not at all. He is struggling with alot and wont let anyone help him.

I don't think he is setting up for him to an affair, but I think he is setting it up so he will leave. I just don't know what to do. He does ask me to be patient and keep prayer, but all his actions point otherwise. Esp over the past few weeks.

I know that loosing him may end up being one of my concequences, and that I should have been in my marriage and not had the affair, but I know what is important to me now, and I am in a healthy spot, and I want my husband, my marriage - the love of my life and I may lose that all now - because of me. And I cant ask him to fight for us, because I didnt fight when it mattered - I had an affair.

Anyways - thanks for listening to me guys - I guess all I can do is hang in here and keep trying to meet his needs a different way.

BTW - his #1 EN was honesty. He said it was the most important thing to him, that without it - the marriage couldn't function. For the first time ever, he is not being honest with me, and it scares me.

-ds

DS,

The break up of your marriage may well be a consequence of your affair, but if Sprint has an affair it is 100 percent his choice. I strongly believe this not just when it is convenient wearing my 'righteously indignant BS' hat. If I owe money I can get a second job or rob a bank. Only one choice is decent. I have to do SOMETHING but I do NOT have to rob the bank.

{{{{{DS}}}}}



He can choose several decent options right now, and for him to actively CHOOSE an affair, is despicable IMO KNOWING the pain they cause.

At the very least he is playing with fire.

I don't think he would have an affair bob, I truely believe he is like you - set himself up for it, etc, but not go through with it - I do believe he will leave me before he does that.

BUT, I do believe he has already "left" the marriage. He no longer feels the need to share things with me, no longer talks to me about more than a breifing of the day and spends most of his time with the kids or on his computer doing more work.

I don't believe he would do anything until he has officially "left" the marriage, but I feel mentally he has already left - I say this because I can look back at myself and see when I mentally "left" the marriage, and me not being the same person as him, justified my affair in that state of mind.

Up until 4 weeks ago, we ate lunch together almost everyday - we cuddled and watched movies, when he had a hard moment we let him work through it.

All of a sudden it stopped. And oddly enough ( I think I am just being paranoid again - but it is an odd coincidence) this girl had e-mailed my company looking for him as he heard his company was hiring. I forwarded the email to him (this was April 11th or so) and he told me then - dont' worry -I wouldn't hire her (in a tone that went with the promises he made before hand about NC with her). Also because adding a female to the male mix at work wouldn't be productive.

So at about the same time she came around, this mood started - I wonder if he is at a point where he has realized there are other people out there and he doesn't need me. I don't want him to need me, I want him to want me.

I think I am overthinking things. Everytime I try and talk to him, he then refers back to the A. He even told me that his lying is not lying - what I did was lying. He isn't out having an affair. But to me, lying is lying is lying. He is still hiding things from me - what happened to our agreement for brutal honesty - even at the risk of a drama!

When I mention anything - it always ends up back to the affair. I tried to tell him - that was then and I am sorry you are right - i didn't do those things then - but I am here NOW - like I said in my letter - I am talking about now, not then. And he says I should have thought about that then.

So I am afraid to bring things up to him now. I don't want o push him out the door. i want to work on my marriage, I want to repair all the damage I have done.

Look at me - I am blabbing away again - anyhow - just helps to talk about it - I feel better after

Thanks for listening

He also told me that him an affair would be useless, as it would never cause the pain on me it caused on him, as I would rationalize and relate to it.

I told him, actually - it could be worse, cause he has seen the devestation to us both this has caused, and to actively seek it knowing the path of wreckage it leaves would hurt me more than he would know. As it meant he never knew how sorry I am and how much pain I was going through as well.

You're not overthinking things.

One of the things I've learned here is that of a sane spouse THINKS something sup on the fidelity front, it usually IS.

Regarding 'leaving the marriage' he could be playing head games or all kinds of stuff.
Talk to him, do not avoid conflict.

Recovery is as much about talking , crying and holding as it is hugging and lunches. Maybe MORESO.

Do you think writing it in a letter is acceptable? As I am terrified I will LB as I do when I am hurt sometimes.

Or do you think that it would be better if I sat him down and talked to him. How do I handle if he throws the A in my face. Normally I say you are right, but this is now, not then, and he reminds me this is the effect of then. How do I get past that when talking to him?

If I do write a letter - should I wait to write it - give it some more time?

If I wrote it in here would guys help me out? I tend to write too much sometimes (in case you haven't noticed) and I dont' want to ramble. I just want to express my concerns without DJ and LB and be able to get them out without having the A thrown at me.

This is not a good day lol - I wish he had someone to talk to. Bob - I don't think he would e-mail you - he is just kinda not interested in much - he thinks everything is bulls**t right now..

-ds

okay - I don't want to DJ and LB, so I want you as BS's to judge before I send any of this to him. I don't want to push him away - but after thinking, I think Bob is right - that I shouldn't avoid conflict...I may not send this to him, I may just talk about it - but it's nice to write out...

Tried to narrow it down. But it might still be too long - any input would be valued. As I still don't think I have a right to be writing this to him....
______

Dear H,

I have been avoiding talking about this, as I am afraid I may push you away, but I need to talk about where we are in our recovery.

I know you want your space and distance, and I am happy to give you that, but there are some things in your behavior that are concerning me. Behaviors that are all too familiar to me, as I acted the same way when I mentally "left" the marriage.

You have begun hiding things from me. Besides the story you made up about B - the fact that you didn't feel the need to tell me about her as it would bring up a drama bothers me. On April 14 or so, I forwarded you the e-mail from her about her wanting a job, and you assured me you wouldn't hire her - still playing the charade at this point. I am not going to get into all the details, as you already know what you haven't told me, or told me only upon confrontation including phone calls, and work related time periods.

I have expressed how uncomfortable it made me - her working there. You told me that Sunday may have been inapporpriate but you weren't going to stand in the way of her career because of something you made up. Right there I felt that my boundries didn't matter. That even though I respect your boundaries, and do not have our mutual long term male friends over when you are not home, don't talk to many old friends due to discomfort from you, that mine didn't matter.

I also know that you have blocked me on your MSN list, one of the last few ways we ever communicated.

The past 4 weeks you have been very distant and cold. You have pushed me away and gotten angry when I show you any love at all. You don't have any conversations with me, no longer call during the day, and you even surf the internet while we are watching movies together.

This behavior reminds me so much of myself during the time of my affair - the way I treated you.

Meanwhile, even though B is work related, you still are talking to her, going out to the book store (albeit for work) and laughing with her - things that you are not doing with me - you are giving that part of you to her. I know that the most sexual it got was you guys joking about a blue bikini that wouldn't look good on you. (doesn't sound too work related), but that is laughter and enjoyment of company that you aren't trying, or are unable to have with me.

OM and I didn't start out sexually - for over a month it was me laughing with him online and enjoying his company. You are enjoying her company when you should be trying to enjoy mine.

I do not believe you are having an affair - but i do believe you have "left" the marriage as I had. The frame of mind you are in, is like the frame of mind I was in pre-affair. It only leads to justification of how you are feeling, and for me I justified an affair, and for you - you may justify leaving.

I guess what I am asking is are you leaving me.

I feel as if as if our recovery isn't important to you anymore, that as angry as you are with me, in that anger, you don't care for me anymore.

If you want this marriage to work, then we need to work on this TOGETHER.

YES I F**CKED UP - BIG TIME, and you have every right to leave if you want.

But if you are going to stay and work on this WITH me, which is what I want more than anything, then I need complete HONESTY - you told me how if you feel you have to hide something from your spouse, something isn't right - you feel you need to hide B. YEs your relationship with her may be strictly work, but you feel the need to hide her from me. This is wrong. Since I finally became honest with you in January - I have not told you a single lie, I have not hid anything, as Honesty was your #1 emotional need. I need you to be just as honest with me.

I love you - and I am SO sorry that you are even in this place. But I am here now, and I want to work on this more than I can even say. I want to give you the love you deserve, if you will accept it from me.

Love DS

DS, I think that is an excellent letter. Try to have a calm talk with him first and if that doesn't happen then give him the letter.

{{DS}}

DS,

I have to humbly disagree with Faithful...it is very well written, yes..but as a BS, I got upset while I was reading it..and I can imagine your H's response.

I do not think that WSes realize this, but a lot of time, we, the BS, do not feel like your feelings matter. That may not be right, but it does happen. That whole letter was about your feelings...if you want him to respond...get rid of the 'me's in that letter and focus on him.

Also, I would not compare what HE is doing to YOUR affair...it will only trigger him and remind him that he DOES have justification for revenge(even though we know revenge does not solve anything). You remind him of your affair throughout that whole letter...PLEASE do not do that! If my H did that I would tell him to shove it!

In short..you are way to confrontational for a FWS, IMO. If you were a "normal" spouse that letter might fly...but you are not..YOU cheated on him...in his mind... YOU deserve everything you get. That is sad, I know..but I know in my bad moods, or down times, I couldn't care less what my H thought or if he was upset. He doesn't deserve that consideration when I am down( In my good moods I realize that this statement is stupid...but I am just guessing on your H's mood).

In addition, you may want to shorten it WAY down. You have gotten into way to much detail..and you start to focus on things that are not as important. For example..you say you know that he knows what he was dishonest about...why bring that all up again. Say you were dishonest, and it hurt me. I know that I was dishonest too, but I now feel a fraction of the hurt you feel. Bring it all back to how you regret your mistake..BUT MAKE IT VERY SIMPLE!!!!

Anyway, I am sorry for being so tough..but I implore you...Rewrite that letter. DO NOT attack him like you have in that letter. You DO need to bring up your points of concern(especially the OW and dishonesty), but you need to be straightforward, less acusatory(sp?), and remind him that you know that what you did hurt him, and that you are brokenly asking for forgiveness..but you are still human and still feel. If you give him the letter as it was written above, you will get nowhere, and you may trigger him deeper than you can possibly imagine.

Take care,

True

I very much appreicate your honesty True. I agree with you too - that's why I put it on here - I want to try to get my feelings across without hurting him - I am trying to learn alot about DJ and LB.

Thats why I put it out here for other Bs's to read, I am a talker, and I overtalk alot ,and it gets me in trouble sometimes, so it's one of the major things I am trying to learn.

Later tonight I will try again. I had a WONDERFUL evening. I went to a Family Sports night at the church and did a 3K power walk with a bunch of wonderful Christian ladies and I am feeling so good right now. So after a shower, and tea, I think I will try this again, while I am in a different mood.

Thanks for bringing me down to earth. It's hard as I don't know what I should say, shouldn't say, what I have a right to, what I don't. I know that as the WS I don't have many rights, but at the same time, I need to continue to get healthy and there are some things that I need too to get through it. So balancing is hard.

Once again - you can't imagine how much I appreciate your honesty True.

-ds

Hi DS,

I haven't read or posted much on here lately, but I felt compelled to respond to this. I was in a very similar situation to you when I first came on here. I will try to find the links to my early posts.

I am also a FWW. My H was absolutely devastated when I confessed to a ONS. For 3 months or so he was completely in a daze. I was ready to do anything to make it up to him, I felt terribly ashamed and guilty. As unbelievable as it sounds, although I felt that it was the biggest mistake of my life, I still had no idea how devastated he would be.

AFter about 3-4 months, H also found a new way to cope with his pain by contemplating an 'open R', ie we would both sleep with others just for SF. This way, he reasoned, he wouldn't be affected by what I did. It didn't mattter that I told him time and time again that it was not what I wanted, I was never going to do it again, it was a terrible mistake. At the time, he was very calm about his decision, and proceeded to go away for weekends and other long holidays with single female friends. He was distant from me. Eventually, I was in such pain that I was having problems just to function normally. My Nana died, I was living OS far from friends and family, and I was starting to think desparate thoughts.

That was when I started to detach from him. It was very difficult, because I felt so guilty, I would have done almost anything for him... but I had to recognise that I couldn't stand it much longer.
I started preparing myself mentally for the eventuality that I might have to leave him... without blame, and with love, but simply because we needed two contradictory things. I guess, I was doing a Plan A and starting to think along Plan B lines.

After about 2 months of this, H got back from a week long trip away, partly by himself and partly with another woman, and told me that he didn't want an open R anymore. He told me that he hadn't been able to do anything with any other woman when it came to the crunch. He didn't want to.

That was the start of our real recovery, as I see it, which was about 5 months post Dday, and 6 months ago now. We started MC 2 months ago and it has helped us hugely. We are now (11 months post dday) really on our way to a better M.

So I guess my point from all of this is that for me the most important thing was learning to focus on my growth as a person and not on H. I knew I could work towards respecting myself again, and atoning and learning, through patience and really understanding my reasons for the A, even if H didn't forgive me and blamed me for his behaviour. I found a lot of strength that I have drawn on in recovery. It is hard to listen to someone's legitimate anger at you and not react. Especially if you have anger and fears of your own. But in the end its valuable to learn that you can still act out of your own integrity, no matter what he does.

PS- yes, I think expressing yourself is a good idea, but keeping it short is better. ALso acknowledging his feelings and apologising for what you have done, irrespective of anything he has or has not done.

good luck (((((DS)))))

Well - I thought about what you said True and really understood that you are absolutely right.

So instead I sat down with him a few minutes ago, we didn't get very far, this is about how it went. I think maybe I came across wrong <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He went out to a friends and then he's going back to the office. I got flustered when he didn't want to talk though, and I it really did become all about me. I didn't want it to, I just wanted to know. I guess I just need to give him his space. His space entails no I love yous, no touching, no hugs - and very limited conversation. It's hard. But I guess I need to do it. Just the dishonesty bothers me so much while this is going on, but at the same time, why would he trust me to be honest with me right?

Anyways - if I offended any of you BS's with these threads, letters, comments, I am so sorry. I am just trying to make it through the damage as best as everyone else - the damage I caused.

Anyhew - the conversation went like this

Me: When do you think you might get home from work
H: I don't know why?
Me: Cause I never see you, so I was just wondering.
H: Dont know - sorry
Me: I guess I want to ask you a question
H: (keeps browsing his laptop)
Me: I need to know if you are thinking about leaving me - I mean seriously thinking.
H: I have been thinking that for a long time.
Me: You know what I mean- the last 3-4 weeks you have been very different, with the dishonesty, and distance.
H: I am not in the mood for a serious conversation.
Me: quiet for a few minutes - then I say, "we haven't had a serious conversation in weeks"
H: Huffs, closes laptop and says - that's it - I am out of here.
Me: I am just concerned
H: I ask you for one thing - space, if you want to get what you want then you have to leave me alone. The affair was all about you and it is STILL all about you.
Me: I am just worried - I want to work on this marriage together, but you are never here, nor want to talk about it.
H: I need to be comfortable too, and you keep pushing - if you want a decision then yes - I am leaving.
Me: I am not asking for a decision, I am asking if we are going to work on this.
H: No answer
Me: Is that why I am blocked on your MSN
H: That's why almost everyone is blocked
Me: We promised when we started out we would be honest
H: I am being honest - stop pushing and just give me my space. Look I am not in the mood for an argument - I gave up that a long time ago.

H walks out of the room, calls his friend and off he goes for a drink with him at his house.

Me: Are you going to work after (observing he has taken his laptop and cellphone)

H: probably

Then he leaves.

So - as of today - I am going to put on a happy face everyday - no more relationship talking, no more serious talking, I wont even bother him with my day to day talking as he just surfs his laptop and ignores me - or walks away, I will say hi to him, make sure his laundry and meals are done like usual, and leave it at that - I will also say I love you before bed, as I mean it and want to still be able to express it.

His family never expressed feelings through touch much, but I have a very touchy family, and so talking about love, and hugging is HUGE for me - that's why this is so tough <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I wont plan movies around him anymore, but I will ask him when I plan on watching the one I rent for me, if he would like to join me, I won't worry about calling him to ask him when he is coming home so supper will be ready,as he says I call too much, I will tell him what time supper will be ready for, so he can plan, or reheat if he can't make it, and many other things. Is this a good balance? So I don't push him away, but I still respect his space?

I wish my appointment with the Christian Councellor I found today was this Friday and not next Friday.

i am TERRIFIED though that giving him his space is going to push him away. But I need to trust that it is what he needs.

-ds

SMUR

Thank you so much for this post - it made me cry

I just feels good to have someone understand and relate to you - you don't feel so all alone.

What you recommended, is kinda what I am planning on doing as per the post I posted while you were posting.

I don't think I have any other choice. I hope that H comes around like yours did. We are just about 5 months post DDay now...long way to go

-ds

Just some things about your letter..



This is not a feeling, its a thought - and you also don't know this. Its a DJ, IMO. What you observe is his lack of affection, etc, but it may be for several reasons, one of which is that he is very angry and hurt.


Again, I think this is a DJ - you are telling him what he should do. I think its more productive and theres less risk of DJs if you stick to your main feelings and your boundaries.

ie, you are hurt because you are not receiving time and attention, you are afraid and hurt because he is spending time alone with X, that you are hurt that he did not tell you the whole truth about X,
- and that you ask that he not have lunch with her alone/that he not spend more than x amount of time with her (or whatever you feel comfortable with).

Then stress how sorry you are for your A, how you realise how hurt he is, that you love him and that you want to rebuild, with no buts and without linking it to his behaviour.

That is what I would suggest.

thanks smur

I actually decided that I wouldn't even write him the letter - True's words were so accurate -- I needed to snap out of my mememe moment - supress the taker. Learning, baby steps.

I did try to talk to him, as you see above... last attempt until he is ready. I just hope he will be ready one day

Lots of prayer to be done tonight.

-ds

DS -

I am glad to hear that it helped. AW and I posted to each other a lot initially and we were in similar sitchs. It helped a lot to talk about it together.

About your conversation - this is where the detachment and self control comes in. I understand how hard it is!!! I think your decision about future behaviour is good!

This isn't literally true . I think what you meant is that you feel he is distant from you and you desire closeness, but this is not what you said.

I found I had to learn a lot of self-control about expressing feelings, being very careful to state things exactly and not exaggerate, and being very careful to avoid DJs and over interpretation of his behaviour. I read some very good books about communication - I would strongly recommend you do this.

Also, I know how hard it is, but I think you cannot expect any nurturing from him for a while at least. Try and find (non-addictive, non-destructive) ways to nurture yourself, is what I would recommend. ((((DS)))))