I decided my PTSD and CODEPENDENCY(?) are two SEPARATE yet interrelated issues. I decided to move this over here in case someone wants to discuss this with me.

LM asked what Steve H.'s view of this was? This articles spells out the MB viewpoint that was relayed to me. I'm moving my previous post over here.

This the MB position on this. Particularly,LM,what do you think? I'll be back later.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html

This is Dr. Harley's quote from this article. He is talking about his own marriage.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to know the truth, co-dependent beliefs and behavior do not lead to anxiety. They lead to healthy, happy marriages. Joyce and I am living proof


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'm going to do some more thinking about this. He does go on to say that he doesn't recommend codependency in a relationship with an alcoholic. He thinks it is healthy,as codependency is defined, in a healthy relationship. The problem is that I might need to consider if my FWH is a "dry drunk", showing some leftover addictive behaviors from his A- thus, creating anxiety in me. I'm going to think on this some more and get back with you folks.

Mimi,

My FWH and I discussed this very topic recently. We do not have chemical dependency issues in our R, but I have a lot of experience with them in past relationships.



While you are thinking, consider whether your "co-dependent" behavior is loving behavior or enabling behavior.

OOPS! I might need to clear something up.

When I referred to my FWH as a "dry drunk", I was making reference to him as a person previously in an ADDICTIVE AFFAIR. He is not a substance abuser although both of us are adult children of alcoholics.....

STILL THINKING....... I'll be back......

Well Mimi, truthfully I could not disagree more with the good doctor. I don't care what his credentials are, co-dependent behavior is NOT healthy and although he claims his marriage is "healthy" because of it, I think giving this advice out to the masses is kind of.....well...I guess I will keep that opinion to myslef as to not offend the masses here who live and die by what he says.

Would other "builders" please weigh in on this statement by the good doctor. What do other's think? I am very very curious to hear what others think. It doesn't take a genuis to figure out what I would say, but what about people like ARk, or WAT, or Pepperband...come on guys, what do you think?

I thank you for pointing this out to me. I was a little suprised at first that he said this, but this is the same DOCTOR who encourages BS to continue having sex with an ACTIVE WS to meet their EN's, at the very REAL risk of STD spread, etc.., and encourages a WS to do N****edited by LM******. I know that I should just zip my mouth here because I am just gonna get people upset with me, but I can't really hold back now.

I may delete this later when I have thought better of it. I will keep it for now.

Mimi, I hope you find the clarity and help you need to get past this "wall" you are behind. It is MY admittedly ignorant amateur opinion that you will "never" get past this stage if you don't change the premise by how you define happiness. You are a good woman and deserve a life of happiness and fulfillment......WITHOUT the need for someone else to have to give it to you.

I am rooting for you, despite our many many different views.

LM

I'm not sure that codependency is really a great idea. Please bear with me, I'm no college graduate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. In my own experience, I freely admit to being co dependent and with a ws it is pure hell. When you are dependent on your S for your happiness and they are not on the same page you are absolutely miserable. I think we need to find ourselves and try to be independent, to quote another poster (cant remember who it was) we need to be responsible for our own happiness and own your situation, only you can make it better. This is just my take on this and I might have read it wrong.

Lemonman -
I agree with you that real co-dependency is not healthy. Howver, I think that what Harley is saying is that the *opposite* extreme is just as bad -- that when the partners in a marriage become so independent that they are used to looking to others for their happiness (also known as "emotional needs") -- *that* is just as damaging to the marriage and to the individual as co-dependency.

Good bonding is necessary for a good marriage. And yes, at least some part of your happiness is going to rely on the primary relationship in your life. If it didn't, then what's the point of getting married? Everyone could just live alone and go from place to place to get their needs met cafeteria-style, with some conversation here and some admiration there and some sex anywhere they can find it.

(And from reading here, I think a lot of WS would be perfectly happy to live this way.)

I took Harley to mean that "me-me-me" is just as bad as "you-you-you." Some married people are so terrified of being labeled "co-dependent" that they are afraid to get emotionally close to their spouses, thinking it is somehow unhealthy -- or else they use it as an excuse not to.

As it usually does, the truth lies somewhere in between.

Your turn! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Edited to add: I do completely agree with you that no BS in their right mind should agree to have sex with a WS who is still sleeping with someone else. I do not know why the Harleys council people to do this. The physical and emotional risks are horrifying to me. If SF is a big emotional need for the WS, and one of their excuses for cheating is that that was being neglected -- well, maybe they shoulda talked to their spouse *before* going out and cheating. No way would I ever advise someone to do this. Saving your marriage should not mean risking either your life or your last shred of self-respect.
JMHO
Mulan

In my opinion, a loving relationship is a sort of co-dependency. Not just a co-habitation, but like Frozen said, a loving, growing relationship, no a co-dependent destructive relationship.

I think we need to grow enough in ourselves that we can "decide" to be happy with another person, or alone.

And that decision also comes with knowing what our personal boundaries are.

Because other people do hurt us and cause us pain - like a WS. It happens all the time. We have to realize what is important to us, and let the rest go. Otherwise, we would call every relationship we have with anyone during our lives a "co-dependent" relationship....good or bad.

We have to grow enough in ourselves to realize that we can depend on ourselves.....to live, be happy, and be productive. Even if there is no one beside us, helping us.

I've grown enough to know that if WH is here or not, I will live, I will be happy, and I will be productive.

Took me a while to see that.

Co-dependency is just two people depending on each other. In a good way, or in a bad way. We have to make that choice.

K

Slight topic thread jack Mimi, but this is all on or about your thread.

Mimi, you asked my opinion about what I thought, so I gave it to you. I usually have a very tough time actively questioning Harley on here, being that this is his house and his MB, and people are here likely to get pissed off if I question the man or any of his principles. For the record, I do believe in a lot of the things he says such as his explanation of a WS and "needs" and the need for strict NC when attempting reconciliation, and his ideas of "exposure" and Plan B. I also feel that sometimes their is almost a "cult like" following to him, and even the most intelligent of BS here could rationalize ****SOME**** of his advice as being "good" and "healthy" when "questionable" at best is what it is.

I truly believe that in your heart of hearts you feel your co-dependance on your FWH is a good thing and what "saved" your marriage. I have also read many of your posts when you let things slip of the man he is, and how you just have "accepted" the way he is. That kind of frightens me, but I know that I am probably going to upset you because I questioned Harley. Sorry, but I can't sugar coat my thoughts on this any better than I already did (I edited my above post out of respect to him and others on the board and also honesty b/c I do not have the patience or temperment to argue with people anymore about "other" (pun intended) points of difference).

LM

Mulan:

Good points. I am not so pig headed to not change my views on this. I think you bring up some good ways of interpreting what he says. Obviously there is some "co-dependence" in any relationship, but I was talking more about the type that Shelly above describes. I feel Mimi may be perhaps bordering on the "dysfuncational" type of co-dependence. That is the danger I belive in being co-dependant on another for the bulk of happiness in your life. The answer lies somewhere in the middle, I agree. Nice post.

LM

Ahhhhhhh.........such a nice way to put it K. I hope that you really really really learn this and live this. YOu deserve to be a happy, vibrant, and fulfiled woman. I hope it is with your WH, but if it isn't, so be it...you will be happy either way.

LM

I think co-dependency is not good - but neither is independence. A book I am working through right now teaches "interdependence" whether you are married, single, etc. It is written for women and talks about the harm that both codependency and indepence can do.

It has alot to do with what many people here have said - a relationship with boundaries that flourishes and grow together - and not just with your spouse but in all friendships as well.

-ds

Another nice post, and one that I wholeheartedly agree with. There is no doubt that complete indepedance fosters infidelity and divorce. I hope noone thinks that because I questioned the compete co-dependance premise that I am on the opposite end.

Mimi, I think you are getting a nice thread going here to help you sort of some of the issue you are having. You may see it differently, but this is the kind of thread that I think will help you. I hope you are ok, that I have made the number of posts that I have had on your thread.

LM

What a nice way to put it K. Kind of made me sigh to read it. I've been struggling with my own codependency issues for some time and never thought of finding some kind of happy medium. You gave me something to think about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here are a couple of quotes from what some consider to be an authoritative source -

Gen. 2: 18
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

1 Cor. 11: 11
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.


Do they have any thing to do with the discussion on this thread?

And BTW, Mimi, HOW ARE YOU DOING?

SS

why is this society to so heck bent on labeling each and every thing...with terms themselves are barely logical...

couldn't one argue that even the term codependant is reduntant to say the least...

at the end of the day when we all lay our heads down on a pillow...what have we gained or even lost from all this...

label me pop-psyche-babble disfunctional....
and please buy my book I write on the topic...

ARK^^
enough with the labels...
actions matter...

Whenever I see an elderly couple walking together, holding hands, helping each other, being the *soft place to fall* for each other ... I don't ask myself if they are "co-dependant" or "independant" or "interdependant" ... I just ask myself how can I successfully get myself and my marriage to that point when we are that age. The label does not matter very much to me.

There are times when being co-dependant on your partner is probably a good idea, and times when it is not.

I think successful relationships are not stagnent, but are dynamic, and adjustments must be made along the way to fit the circumstances of the day.

Please God, allow me to be a co-dependant wife if my husband is ever so frail and sick that he cannot do things for himself... and visa versa. Allow me the grace to feel his needs supercede my own when it is appropriate to do so. I think this is the sort of thing Harley had in mind when writing about how married people need to need each other in order to be successful.

I loved Mulan's description of "cafeteria-style" needs getting met .... when there in not a deep attachment to one person.

The beauty of this discussion, is that there is no right answer. Only more questions.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As is typical, PEP says it all for ME:



I don't feel uncomfortable at all calling myself CO-DEPENDENT.

The Harley Viewpoint really fits with MY BELIEF SYSTEM and MY VALUE SYSTEM. I have had numerous therapists, using various approaches. Steve Harley has helped me personally and my marriage better than any other therapist with his approach. This is what works for ME.

I am CO-DEPENDENT AND I HAVE PTSD!!

SO THERE......

OH WELL! On to the my next issue....

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />