ok---have nothing to add at the moment to what pep and am martin have already said.....but i have decided i am not getting all the farm animals my son and i are envisioning when we move!!!! LOL wanted 2 horses and some other animals....way more work than i have time for at the moment...lol we will keep going to the local horse farm/ranch instead...lol

Hi Pepper!

nikko,

LOL, It's really not that bad. I really do enjoy it, but it takes away from the family (like a "real" job and weird hours). When we do the things together: Mardi Gras Pet Parade with goat, horseshows, play outside or brush dogs (not nearly enuf brushing), THAT is worth it!! i ask everyone in the family, H, DD, DS at random intervals: "Do you sometimes wish that we hadn't done this, that we just lived in town in a subdivision (EWW) and life was simpler. Each and everyone has said that they love this. But H has qualified and said that he hadn't known how much work it would be and he wasn't sure that he would do it ALL again. I agreed that it is alot of work, but i didn't know it either, i had just boarded horses and had dogs/cats. I still would do it the same and maybe then some, esp. with older kids. D14 is a BIG help now, altho she gripes. S7 doesn't help much (a little gardening, animal-brushing, feeding... -and I mean LITTLE) and he said, just today, that he wishes we had 45 animals!!! I just laughed and said that we were doing fine. --By the way, H brought home chickens (1 is a rooster and MEAN) on my B-day last year and promised to take care of them and hmm, well it's usually just part of my chores.

He is also resentful of the work that the kids are. There was a thread on EN forum about that recently- Would you do it again and have kids, if you knew now. AMAZINGLY so many had said no - I have this D14 who is such a SNOT sometimes, but wouldn't trade her for a million bucks (maybe two?) - I do a HUGE part of the kidstuff. At times, he had to give S (when he was younger) a bath and make them do homework or drive them somewhere. OMIGOD, How awful -sarcasm detectors going off-.

A.M. and all, I have been doing alot of that. He whines (there's that word) when he's not invited, so I invite him and he is often sullen. Not to mention, must admit here, I am MAD at him. I get tired of doing what I see as "it all" ( I do know that it's not), and then him being resentful for doing his part. Here is one of the worst things, he NEVER does anything for himself, funwise. I have pushed and pushed him too. And then he turns around and blames me at times, "why can't I ever do anything that I want?" ARGH... Once I told him that I was not here to make his playdates for him. This has been going on for years (yes, when S was infant/toddler it was harder for EITHER of us. I would have friends bring kids over or vice-versa ). This was also one of the things that he said on that recording - He was always having to do this or that..He had lost all his freedom. WTF, that's what happens for awhile when you have kids and then you go when you can, and he doesn't and then blames me/us.

Sorry, whew, that felt GOOD. Esp. that WTF part...Sigh,
Well, whiny kooky j is gonna go to the store and get more potsting soil for S to plant flower seeds. And H is coming over, we both need some SF (blush).

Will continue trying very HARD to do Plan A. Ark 2 upcarrots recommended two weeks of stellar Plan A and then Plan B on last thread. Still very confused.

Did not mean to put off the recording story- will try again later. Just got a little carried away (again).

gee---we are in the process of leaving the sub-division neighborhood and i cant wait. its only 5 acres but the views are mountains on 2/3 of it. waiting for the final approval from the town to build.......we wanted the horses....son(9) and i are into them...we go to the horse farm regularly and trade off work for riding time. he started comming with me since he was 4. he loves it. even when he fell out of the hay loft and got attacked by one of them nasty roosters you mentioned....he wanted chickens until he found out we needed a rooster too...lol. no more chickens. so he knows how to clean the stalls and feed them and water them. he knows how to walk them out after a ride...i do all the saddling and un-saddling....and we both help new commers learn how to ride. he is really great in the ring with scared nervous kids and moms..its funny and cute. leads em around and has no fear....

well anyway, so how much property do you have to care for?

Hi jls,

I am sorry that you've been feeling depressed these past few days. I hope things get better for you.

Have you ever considered calling the Harleys for MC (as SS suggested on your other thread?)? I think might be a good idea.

svb

He doesn't help much? Keep in mind, jls, that in Plan B, you'll be doing all this by yourself. Plenty of food for resentment -- so be prepared.

My beloved, too, encouraged us to take on more animals -- and now we are taking care of the menagerie without him. But our zoo isn't nearly the size of yours.

Well, take joy in it, and the kids. He won't. Sounds like he's got you going and coming -- either way he'll complain. Have fun without him, so you can come from a place of joy -- whatever you decide to do. Stop dragging him -- it's a drag for you. Sounds like he's getting his jollies elsewhere, anyway.

One thought I like from an MBer somewhere: You don't have to prove what you already know. Don't let him talk you out of what you know. He sounds like he's on a losing streak -- and it's just beginning.

jls: Just an innocent bystander here, but wanted to chime in with my $.02.

There is a tendency to set boundaries for what we will or will not accept in a very legalistic and naive way. We determine what we consider to be "really" cheating, and what's just "innocent" based on a lot of preconceived ideas about how marriages are supposed to work.

Any given action can be hidden, lied about, etc. It's nearly impossible to "prove" anything--ask OJ Simpson. So when you set your standards for marital satisfaction and boundaries based on actions which are automatically going to be done secretly and covered up, you set yourself up for your responses to be dependent, not on their attitude or your satisfaction with the relationship, but on what you can or cannot prove.

Do you need proof that he is not an honest person in general, and in particular in regards to his dealings with other women? Do you need proof that he has shown a lack of respect for the integrity of your marriage? Do you need proof that he is unwilling to make an adequate effort to ensure your marital satisfaction needs are met? I would guess you have ample "proof" of those things.

In my own marriage, I was one of those "if he ever really cheated, then I would definitely leave" people. I've had to learn to be honest with myself, I know now that being naive and legalistic was my way of not having to deal with his painfully obvious lack of commitment to fidelity and the marriage in general. He did things right in front of my face that I now recognize were cruelly disrespectful of me. There was never any question that his "friends," many of them women and single, were much higher on his list of priorities than I was. They got the "first choice" of his time and attention. I got "what he could spare." He more or less openly dated other women around me, but because he cloaked it in the "we're just friends" excuse, I felt like I had no grounds to complain. After all, I couldn't prove he had romantic feelings for them, or vice versa.

The truth is, I didn't need any more proof than the fact that he was taking other women to the movies and leaving me behind. I kept saying that if I ever found "proof" that he'd "really" cheated, then it would be "okay" for me to leave. The fact that he was openly giving himself and plenty of women ample opportunity to cheat meant that he wasn't really committed to making SURE he kept his vows.

I don't feel like I'm expressing myself well here. But the main point is, I was scared of losing him. I was scared of being alone and scared that he was treating me that way because I really wasn't worth cherishing. I was scared that the reason he kept the door so wide open and his foot permanently wedged in it was because it was so obvious that nearly anyone would be "better" than me.

So I set the bar as low as I could and still pretend that I had standards. I made the criteria for leaving him so unlikely it was nearly impossible, because it would have meant that I would have had to literally walked in on him with someone else, or he'd have had to voluntarily admitted having sex with someone else without me directly asking. That was never going to happen--and that was the point. I didn't want to lose him, but I also didn't want to admit I had no self-worth whatsoever.

I'm not saying that is what is happening with you. But I am saying that you should follow pepperband and am martin's advice, and really think about what your standards of behavior and boundaries are. Think about what "evidence" you want to see to show those standards were being met which would be practical. Trust what you see and hear. Trust yourself. Be honest with yourself.

Jseagull:

This very insightful post above was the most intelligent advice you have recieved to date. You are in a way, stopping yourself from "moving ahead" with your almost denial of who and what your WH is. I think this is the crux of your problem.

I hope that you can find the strength to do what is right for you and your children..........whatever that may be. Hopefully it means your WH.......statistically though, being that this is his 3rd marriage (history usually repeats itslef unfortunately) , you may need some higher forces helping out here. I will say a prayer for you.

Goodluck.

LM

Hey everyone,

many thanks for all replies.

Java, that was VERY insightful, you shouldn't just be a bystander. I have been thinking about this all weekend. You are right, but i still worry about my kids more than anything. If nothing else (and there is something, I love this man. Yes, I KNOW, love is a 4-letter word and does NOT make the world go 'round) Will continue to process all of this and my options. Plan B may be for me.

Now here is part of the rest of the story! I know you all have been just dying to read this. (drip drip - sarcasm}

I put the digital tape recorder in my H’s car on a Wed and Thurs in June ‘03. I remember that it was Wed and Thurs, because on the 1st one he complains about putting the trash out. I actually have a fairly good memory of that day, he got up late (I got up later, thekids were out of school) and was grouchy. I offered to help him when I got up, he just grumped and said that he had promised to do it and he would DO it - shock the pool and turn off lights by pool (lights which he had put up, for fun). I leaned out the back door and thought he was leaving, he was walking back in the yard towards the pool. I also told him that he should have woken me up, I could easily have fed horses also, or done it later. He said no big deal, but I could tel that he was extremely grumpy.

On the 1st recording, much of it is hard to hear. I was paranoid and threw it under the backseat, wrapped in a towel. Not the best scenario for good audio. I really thought that he was talking to himself until I heard the recording the next day, then I took them both to be cleaned up and put on CD. That place did a horrible job, but got ‘em on CD, so I downloaded Echofilter and played with it for awhile. Then I sent it away last year to another guy, who cleaned up a small part of it (it was expensive and H is resentful of the money spent and the distrust). The 2nd day, I put the recorder pu front and got better audio, yet not perfect (his window was down part of the time). I can hear the radio very clearly, then he turns it down and starts to have a conversation and then rolls up the window as he starts to talk. Can’t hear the 1st two sentences very well.

2nd one first: “__________(sounds like a name, could be cathy or kevin??), She’s getting rather suspicious. _____ ______ ______, heavy responsibility being involved with this horsegirl.” [Pause] then(sounds like “you’d think so”) “Yeah, but that’s not the case. As a matter of fact, it’s opposite. I come home and she’s out hte door. She’s gone, she’s out to the barn, she’s gotta go do her horsestuff.” [pause] “My job is cook dinner, do the dishes,do the laundry and give Son(says his name) a bath while she’s out doing her horsething.” “I realize that cleaning stalls is not a fun job, but still, you’ve got to see it from my perspective.” [Pause] then (it sounds like “I didn’t choose..” ) to do laundry, dishes, cook dinner.” [pause and then loud, as he was getting out of car] “She chose to have horses!” All of this was in a very conversational tone.

Now, some of this is true. H did a lot of laundry back then (I would rather do 5 stalls then laundry but I still did more than he realized). Not since then though, I so MOST of it, by a long shot. And I was only out at the barn in the eves for ~30 min at that time. Now my D14 gets horses in 95% of the time. Also he Never cooked ALL the dinners, washed dishes all the time, or gave DS a bath all the time, What a Hoot! I knew that it was hectic right then and he had come home a few times WHILE I was cooking or barbequing (sp?) And He offered to help while I went and got horses in! And I was NOT cooking dinner enuf (still don’t), but had even apologized within 1-2 weeks before this recording. His reply was that he knew that about me when we got M and he was GLAD and PROUD that I was more than just a housewife and had other interests. WTF?! Then to hear that!!

And what I did not put in parenthesis, I am SURE of the words, just listened to it last nite and wrote some of it down.

Any thoughts??

Will post other rec.(parts that I can hear) soon, maybe tonite and maybe Plan B letter on new post!

Thanks all,
jls

^^ (Bump and also an upcarroty call to ark^^)

lets look at this from another perspective....lets take the possibility of an affair out of the mix(i know----ive been called crazy before, but follow me on this....)

ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR MARRIAGE AND LEVEL OF RESPECT FROM YOUR HUSBAND?

at a certain point i had to sit down and say to myself ---affair or not, nc or not, recovery or not.....i am not happy and our marriage sucks. either we get help or we move on.....i then went to plan b.

are you happy?
is he?

what are you gonna do?

First, how can I NOT adore you with a Bach-ish screen name like yours? And once an idjit, always an idjit imo. Heck, I don't come over near as much as I used to...but they don't hold that against me.




Between you, me, and the fencepost (and the rest of MB) you cannot be made to eat that pile of bullshyt no matter how much he tells you it's chocolate and presents it on that silver platter. No wonder you doubt yourself...anyone would feel crazy after being force fed that.

So what are you going to do about it? Have you tried the reverse babble on him? If you want to stay sane, it's a Godsend. My favorite when the rewritten history comes up is:

I know you belive that, hon. But what you've talked yourself into believing and the facts are two different things.

Smile sweetly and walk away. He wants to argue, he can argue with himself......he, he. Don't let him get away with it, but don't argue about it.

As for your strength...dear, only YOU know what you can handle. Both plans are about regaining your sense of self and protecting yourself from the fallout of his horrible decisions. Until you put either plan into full action, neither will work.

Beleive me, your strenght and sense of YOU will grow stronger with each positive step you take in controlling YOUR life!

- Kimmy

jlseagull I was reading your post and wanted to talk to you. I have horses to and goats and ducks and cats and chickens. I feel sometimes the reason my husband doesn't tell me the truth about his affair is that i would leave, who would take care of the animals. He drives truck and works different hours. I am the only one to do it. I feel sometimes that i'm just here for the chores, thats all i needed for. Do you feel the same way?


I am not the person who wanted these animals. It was his dream to have a small farm some day so we moved 11 years ago and he got his dream. I do love the animals and all but a lot of cleaning .

All i can say is it sure is hard road. chores, cleaning,cooking ,paying bills,taking are of grandkids after school. I wish you all the best.
I was thinking maybe your farm is to much for your husband to handle and he doesn't really no how to talk to you about it. you sound like you love the life. maybe you need to get away for a day with him and stay over night some where just to stop the everyday work and chores. I been trying to do this so far can't find the time or someone to take care of animals, but still trying. think of you to day and hope for some other ideas. i sure would like to help you always pansy

Hi Dealan,

I know that he is not happy, but he always just says that he would be happy if I were happy. I AM happy with everything else besides the level of intimacy and trust in my M. Sounds like reverse babble on me.

I have tried RB but I am not good at it. I keep trying tho.

I like your reference to bul!$hit. I know $h!t, I clean it up everyday, and it is not even CLOSE to being chocolate!!

Thanks D, I am getting alot stronger, that is why I think that I should do Plan B. H hasn't been over since the weekend and he is calling all the time and kinda' freaking out.

Do you think that Plan B is applicable here? Anyone? And how, since no exposure or even admittance of A.

Pansy, Have to take S7 to school, will write more later!

jls

Pansy,

I still don't have much time, have to clean stalls, go get my hair done, then pick up S and take D14 (hook up and pull trailer with her horse too) to riding lesson this afternoon.

Although I wanted the farm, he said that he was all for it. And 1 horse is his (the one that is the worst to clean up after, it's a draft), and it is his old cat (who hardly ever goes outside, throws up all the time and I clean up)and 1 dog is his (the pup that gets in trash) altho I kinda got it for him, he picked the dog out. And he brought home the rooster and hen (Yuck!) which i hate but feed and water 99% of the time.

He also wanted our S, he had no kids. Then HE felt trapped, WTF?! He often doesn't do his share with the kids and when he does, he complains!!

I do love the life. I have asked him soo many times if it bothered him and he denied it. And told him that I understood if it did, it's bound to bother us all at times. Even in MC years ago, he denied the very things that he complained about on the rec. And made me look oversensitive for saying that I thought that he was resentful, then sidetracked with references to my PAST depression (this was in MC in '02- I think that it was 02).

Sorry, I am just very resentful myself these days. Tired of trying so hard, by myself. On the M that is. And I know that Plan B will be hard, but we are separated right now, anyway. He does help a little still on the weekends when he comes over. But it makes my rollercoaster go high and LOW!

More later, Thanks,
jls

By the way, all, I do more for me these days. I get my hair cut and colored. My stylist even commented tha I was there so often (~4x) last year. I used to go 1-2x a year and jsut get a cut. I also go to a "gym" in the am alot. That is socially fun also, it is like a curves and the ladies are funny. I really do need to start riding again tho. Will work on that!

Thanks for all the input everyone,
jls

Hallooo!! *jumping up and down, waving frantically!!!*

Why is he not living at home? Do you have proof of an A? If there is no A then why are we talking about PLAN B?

I know I coming in here late so please forgive me.

I'll have some more comments, but can't get them typed for a day or two.

Mimi has a good question about plan B.

Plan B is used to let the OP try and fill all the needs in an A, and also to protect the love you have left until the A is over.

In your case, the A has never been admitted, but it is over.
I would guess you want plan B so that he will have to look at what he wants. In other words, to force a decision.

It will probably do that - make him choose. If you are at the end of your rope, you may want it to protect you from his thoughtlessness, and lack of care. I worry that he has no idea of what is going on, and may end things himself at that point out of frustration.

Must go, will be back later.

SS

Mimi and SS,

I have started different threads on whether I should/could do Plan B without confirmation of an A. The general consensus is yes. I am sure that there was something going on. What, I don't know.

Did you read the paragraph about the recording? Does it make sense to you, that is if he was talking to himself? Maybe I am crazy. There is another rec. that I haven't posted yet. It is not that long and not as audible. But there are parts that i can hear, and it has been cleaned up some. It is also the one that I can hear a woman's voice on (faintly, but there).

Maybe I will post that next. I have posted most of this info before, but it was sporadic and some of it a long time ago.

Now I feel more confused. I am getting conflicting info and while i want to hear more than 1 option, it is still making me doubt myself more.

Thanks Mimi and SS, I will think about it all some more. Would you read, carefully, the post on this thread with the recording and let me know what you really think? Please, and thank you again.

jls