I have a bad habit of posting, reading replies, posting a bit more then disappearing for a while, so please forgive me for that.

I've been talking to my exH a couple times a week for WEEKS now, since renewed contact when his grandfather passed away about 2 months ago. Through the first month or so of the contact, I was open and honest about it with my close girlfriends, and even my parents (I told them I was talking to him on the phone).

Then 2 weekends ago, I met him for lunch on a Saturday afternoon. He came over to my place and we hung out for hours talking. There was some physical intimacy even. He went home and didn't stay the night. We've continued talking on the phone, but I haven't seen him again since.

He and I both have trouble imagining ourselves with other people....we did have it so good at one time before, as he puts it, he became a dirty dog. We both have thoughts of what if we could make this work. Hence the continued conversations.

I just got off the phone with him, and made the mistake of being vulnerable enough to mention how a small part of me, the lonely part of me even had a desire to cuddle up to him and hold him through the night. The call ended in me having to tell him no less than 6 or 7 times that it was just a thought and that there was no chance of it actually happening tonight. He got very annoying and began insisting that he was going to come over. I had to tell him that I didn't want him to and wasn't comfortable with it at least 6 times! Not very respectful of my boundaries still is he?

I haven't told ANYONE, friends or family about the continued contact with him, or that I saw him. I feel really guilty about not telling them, however the reason I am not telling them is that they all believe I should never have anything to do with him again, and that I can do better (as I believe many of you folks on MB feel as well). But the lonely part of me, the part of me that remembers the wonderful feeling of being married and having that amazing companionship and all that goes with it, that part wonders how or if I could ever feel that kind of bond with someone other than my exH ever again. He says the same thing, he can't imagine having the kind of quality relationship we once had with anyone else. He said the relationships he had with OW1 and OW2 over the past couple years weren't even a millionth of the quality ours once was.

I feel at a loss for what to do. My head says steer clear. My heart is tempted to see him again. My gut feels sick because I'm not talking about it to my close girlfriends. I go days without talking to him, then loneliness sets in and we start talking again, and the guilt and anxiety are on one side, and the comfort and fun of talking to him is on the other.

One concern is he still is drinking quite a bit on regular occasions with his brothers. I've even gotten some DWI's from him (dialing while intoxicated) since our renewed conversations. Some of the old patterns are still there and scare me. I don't know how I could safely try to reinitiate a relationship with him.

There's a part of me that is repeating an old quote, people who break up break up for a reason, and those who have to "get back together" invariably break up again and again.....something someone said to me once, that won't leave my mind.

I am so afraid of being hurt by him again, I am also afraid of ending up alone, I am also afraid to tell my friends the truth....this is the first time I've been dishonest (by omission) with anyone since I cheated on my then H way back in 2002, and it eats away at me. I DON'T want to hear their lectures however. I don't want to see them look at me like I am crazy or stupid.

Anyone been in a similar place? Divorced from someone that your family and friends now only see as an evil, hurtful person that you should stay far away from, but that you find yourself tempted to be with? Did you try being with them?

Any general thoughts or advice about my probably stupid decision to continue contact? Right now my heart is pulling me very strongly, and I need some rational thoughts from somewhere to help me figure out what I should do from here on out.

Jen

Jen,

Wouldn't you like your future H to be a man who follows the MB principles? If the answer is yes, do you beleive that your exH is that kind of man?

TMCM

Jen,

There are red flags all over your post. I don't really know your story but from this one post, I would say the answer is no.

You say that your head is saying no, but your heart is saying saying yes. You also say that you are lonely. You also say he drinks too much.

Because your head and your heart are not in sync, he is either not the right one for you or this is not the right time.

Him drinking too much is the biggest red flag of all and probably the number one reason your head and your heart are not in sync.

He hasn't grown Jen, or changed. He is still at the same place he was when he was cheating on you.

You can not choose a mate out of lonliness, you will not make a very good choice.

You should start dating again Jen, and fill your life with things that fill up those lonely places.

Being alone and being lonely are not one and the same. I have been alone more than I have ever been with someone and yet I have rarely felt lonely.

Of course you can't make yourself do something you are not ready to do either. But you can find things in this life which will put you in a better place emotionally, and I really don't think this guy is going to do it.

And like TMCM asked, is your ex MB material? If not after knowing what you know now, how can you ever go back? I mean once you got back with him, would it be enough?

That drinking part though Jen, that is not good.

Hello Jen

I haven't posted you before I don't think.

Just wanted to say that your situation has raised an 'MB philosphical' point in my head I had not previously considered.

We know how to behave in Plan A - 'lighthouse' etc.
We know how to behave in plan B - 'dark'
We know how to behave in recovery 'thoughtful, no LBs, meet ENs etc'.
But when you have divorced....well...I think there is no 'rule' to be followed after a divorce.

Right now I think if Squid and I were to divorce I'd try to never see her again , but I learned that what we THINK we will do in a given situation is not necessarily what we WILL do !

So after a divorce you and WXH are just two people who know a lot about each other ; enough to know you couldn;t remain married. Is it not possible that the process of divorce can change people for the better ? Is it possible a divorce is like the ultimate plan B that makes a WS realise what they have thrown away ?

I dunno Jen.

I really don't.

I believe that past behaviour is a good guide to future behaviour, and the reasons you believed you were irreconcilable and led to divorce are unlikely to be gone.

I would mainly be concerned like Weaver that rather than renewed attraction to your WXH, you are missing familiar arms around you. Your loneliness is making you willing to discount the price of admission into your life low enough for your WXH to pay.

Is that sustainable?

I doubt it.

Is it wrong ? Well if you get pleasure from sharing intimacy with your WXH and are braced for the disappointment that is likely to come, no one can tell you that you shouldn't do as you please.

I would only say that you should behave in a way that will retain your self respect and that you should take any action DELIBERATELY not out of instinct or by default.

All blessings Jen.

Then 2 weekends ago, I met him for lunch on a Saturday afternoon. He came over to my place and we hung out for hours talking. There was some physical intimacy even.


I just got off the phone with him, and made the mistake of being vulnerable enough to mention how a small part of me, the lonely part of me even had a desire to cuddle up to him and hold him through the night. The call ended in me having to tell him no less than 6 or 7 times that it was just a thought and that there was no chance of it actually happening tonight. He got very annoying and began insisting that he was going to come over. I had to tell him that I didn't want him to and wasn't comfortable with it at least 6 times! Not very respectful of my boundaries still is he?

Jen,

I think he is getting some mixed messages from you. He is probably trying to figure out what changed in those 2 weeks...afterall he was there and you were intimate with him.

Your actions are not in sync with your words. All he knows is that you were together 2 weekends ago, with some intimacy involved...and now you are not "comfortable" with him coming over. Did you happen to give him a reason for it being uncomfortable? Or did you just leave it out there for interpretation?

He might think that YOU are picking and choosing what times there can be some intimacy and I don't think that it sitting well with him. I don't think it would sit well with a couple in a on/off dating relationship either.

The reason that you haven't told ANYONE about the contact is because you KNOW that it is wrong. A "secret" relationship is really no relationship. If I remember correctly, he kept YOU a secret...didn't he? You had to meet him when there was no chance of being seen together...when it was late at night...and when he wanted sex?

Sounds like the tables are a little bit turned now. Is there a chance that you are doing this on purpose?

committed

Jen - Hello?? Anybody home in there? HelloooOOOOOOooo?

Three ways to look at his reaction to your bait and switch.

He hasn't changed, or

Your bait and switch was to the point of being cruel, or

my choice - both of the above.

Jen, you need to either go for the Full Monty with him and give it another try or ween yourself cold turkey.

This in-between crap is torture to both of you.

To give it another try is foolhardy, in my opinion.

WAT

I thought the same thing as Committed. I also remember how it hurt you when he kept his seeing you a secret from family and friends.

But the biggest obstacle to this renewed contact with you that I see is his alcoholism. You need to steer clear of him until such time that is dealt with by him. The Harley's do not believe in any marital recovery until the substance abuse issues are no longer there. Would you really want an alcoholic parent to your future kids?

It would be better for both of you if you are clear about just what your bounderies are if there is any possibility of reconciliation between you two. I understand your draw to him. Keep it healthy. Just the fact that you are ashamed to be honest should tell you that the red flags are still too huge. If all the ducks were in a row you would probably be proud to say that the two of you made mistakes and now have forgiven each other etc.

Well, it sounds like most of you agree with my gut and my head, that this likely won't work out. I've taken a couple days of no contact with him to roll it all around in my head again. It may seem easier on the surface to just get back together with him in order to find companionship, but all the same issues are still there beneath the surface, and it wouldn't last. I'm not the same easily manipulated girl I once was, I finally have better boundaries.

TMCM - Good point...I sincerely doubt he could really follow the MB principles. POJA is one thing I doubt he'd be capable of - I still get the feeling he isn't open to others' perspectives on much of anything. If anything, his time away from me has made him more narrow-minded and less compromising. It would seem that the GF of the past couple years let him walk all over her, and just kept taking it.

Also, as many of you remarked on, drinking is still a significant part of his life, and the lives of his brothers too for that matter. Getting back together with him would mean adopting the role of babysitter for his adult drunken brothers as well. In that last phone conversation I had with him I accused him of slurring his words and being drunk. His response was that he'd only had 5 light beer all night and that there was no way he was drunk because of his high tolerance. When I went for lunch with him, he ordered a pitcher of beer, I had not even 2 glasses, he had the rest and ordered one more glass after even.....so yeah, alcohol is playing too much of a role in his life. Even if he grabs a brain and tries to cut back on or cut out his drinking, his brothers (who he spends all his social time with) drink like fish, so the alcohol issue isn't ever going to go away unless their controlling mother demands they all dry out and get treatment, or perhaps they come to realize themselves that they need help (which will happen when pigs fly I'm sure).

Bob Pure - Good point about how the relationship between divorced people has no MB rules per se. I do think that to an extent it's possible a divorce is like the ultimate plan B that makes a WS realise what they have thrown away. However, it would seem that realizing what they've thrown away, and realizing how they need to behave differently if they were to resume the relationship are two different things. I also paused and considered these words of yours for quite some time, "Your loneliness is making you willing to discount the price of admission into your life low enough for your WXH to pay." You're right, I'm lonely enough I am continuing contact with a man who, if I had just met him, once the red flags became apparent, I would probably not go on a second or third date with him.

committed - you sure are an astute observer. I never even thought about how the tables have been turned, and now I am the one keeping the secret instead of him. I wasn't consciously doing it on purpose. Although, he only told one brother that he's even in touch with me, and still has kept our contact secret from the rest of his family. So really, we're both still keeping our contact a secret - evidence of both of our lack of confidence this will work out.

Trix - When you said, "Would you really want an alcoholic parent to your future kids?" my immediate reaction was NO! And, I wouldn't want my kids around alcoholic uncles either - with his brothers being such big drinkers too.

One last GIANT red flag that nags at me is this one: When I was emailing back and forth with my exH's then GF in December, it was because he was phoning me and telling me he still loved me and wanted to have babies with me, when I understood he was still seeing her. Turns out he was, and was leading her to believe he'd been out ring shopping. When I called him on his two timing ways, he claims he doesn't know what she was talking about, and doesn't remember what he said to me. She and I emailed a bit to figure out his 2 timing ways. Then I was FORCED to stop communication by my H and his one brother. The brother threatened to phone the wives of the 2 men that I had PAs with during our marriage if I had any further contact with my H's now exGF. The story was that he wanted my exH to have control over his destiny with this woman and not me. Well, all I was doing was sharing the truth with her, comparing timelines, and coming to grips about how he was seeing and sleeping with both of us for close to 2 years during our separation, not to mention letting her know that he had started communication with me again when he was supposed to be committed to her. My ex's brother saw it all as me trying to break them up. I am still reminded by my ex that if I ever try to contact her (the now exGF) at all, his brother will go forward with his blackmail plan and tell all to the wives. He doesn't care at all that his "ratting" me out to their wives will possibly destroy two marriages that include children. He just wants to manipulate me into not talking to my exH's GF again. In and of itself, this means I'd never be comfortable around my ex's brother ever again.

Yes, I cheated. Yes, it was wrong. Sure, many people at MB are of the opinion that I should've contacted the wives ages ago and come clean. However, they have managed to continue their marriages happily for this long, to go confessing now only seems to have the intent to harm and break up their marriages.

But my point is that manipulation (even if it's through the excuse of it being his angry brother) is still my exH's MO. It also means that I still see my exH as someone who uses manipulation, not respect and kindness, to get what he wants. And it would seem that what he wants is the outside chance that the exGF might take him back someday.

I know I need to continue trying to get out there and find new people to date if I'm ever going to have a healthy relationship again it seems. It's just really hard to meet anyone. Online dating seems to be my only option since I am not the kind of woman who likes to go to the bar.

However, having said all of this, there's still that evil, niggling sense in the back of my mind that that there's still a 1% chance that it could work with my ex. But that is if a) he'd quit drinking, b) he could treat me with respect (eg. adhere to MB principles), and c) his family wasn't such a mess too.

All in all, he's not a good prospect. I can see that.

Here goes Jen, trying to let him go again.....now for how to tell him that? I'm not so comfortable with just stopping talking to him and ignoring his calls. I think I'd prefer to tell him that I don't think I can be with him. It's that whole part of me that doesn't want to leave us as enemies. BUT me trying to tell him I don't want to try could get into a debate and him persuading me otherwise....it's so sad, I so fear his ability to manipulate me.

There's part of me that would like to try full-on dating him, going out and doing stuff AWAY from either of our houses, to see if we're compatible WITHOUT intimacy. Then I could be sure that I'd tried everything, and then move on. But I feel like everyone would tell me I'm an idiot for even considering it.

Yeah, I'm still torn. It's a bit pathetic I suppose. I guess maybe my self-esteem is a bit low, and that's why I am even considering him?

Jen

Edited to add this: When we talk on the phone, several times a phonecall sometimes, he asks if I am recording the phonecall, so I can send our conversations to his exGF. I take this as he is intent on keeping her on the back burner and doesn't ever want her to find out that he is openly telling me that he cares about me. I find it very offensive, and only just finally found the brains in our last phonecall to tell him if he keeps asking that stupid question that I am going to hang up. If it's such a concern, he shouldn't even talk to me. So, in short, this is another red flag of his inability to behave like an adult worthy of my companionship I suppose.

Jen,

It seems like one big sordid drama to me...and it has been going on for a long time now.

The question is...do you honestly want to be a player in this cast of drunken adulterous fools?

I don't know how some people can stand all the drama in their lives. I detest it and REFUSE to be part of it.

He said...she said...she did this...he did that...that's his H...that's his W...blah blah blah blah blah <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

What a waste of energy...and life force. I wouldn't want to waste another minute dealing with those people.

committed

Jen, if I'm not mistaken, you've already tried this, am I right? If this is the case, then why repeat that which has already been tried and yielded miserable results?

Finding a quality man will definitely take time and effort on your part but I beleive that if you start expanding your network of like minded friends, the chances will increase significantly of one day finding the right man to share the rest of your life with. You're still carrying a torch for your ex-H and until you end all contact with him, you'll only end up sabotaging all your hard efforts to find a man who will truly love you.

TMCM

committed....I appreciate your objective perspective. It is all a bunch of drama I could do without. I just heard a funny quote on that new Grey's Anatomy tv show that I think relates here:

"Why do I keep hitting myself with a hammer? Because if feels so good when I stop."

Maybe interacting with him is my sick way of reassuring myself I did the right thing when I divorced him and moved on with my life.

TMCM - I have never really "dated" him in the proper sense (since before we were married) - going out in public on dates, doing fun things together, and being open and honest about spending time together. However, at this moment I am not interested in attempting to date him. I am more interested in the possibilities of meeting other men, ones who would treat me with real care and respect, and would fit into the healthy life that I lead now. You're right, if I keep my heart in the past, it can't go on into the future with anyone new. The frustrating thing about finding the like minded friends you mentioned is that I have them, it's just that they don't actually know anyone who is single! But I won't give up hope.

Thanks for your input guys. I appreciate it, even if it's sometimes hard to take.

Now, any suggestions for how to let him down easy?

Yeah, I'm too nice, I know. I keep insisting on treating others the way I would want to be treated, even if those "others" don't bother to treat me very well.

The sad thing here is he IS trying, but he still isn't able to be a better person. He will go on about how he is and has really been trying. He'll want me to quantify what's not good enough about him, in part so he can convince me that I am wrong. Then it will potentially wash away all of my resolve to end what odd connection we've had over the past few months. I need help with how to approach this conversation, please.

Jen

Jen:

Why any of this?

Honestly, I don't think you're good for one another. I mean that. You're stunting each other's growth by spending time stagnating 2gether.

You've learned a lot, but you're still attached - and 2 an unhealthy individual who has refused wisdom at every oppor2nity.

-ol' 2long

Hi Jen.

Sneaking out of retirement just for a brief moment because an "old friend" still seems to be in need.


Excuse me? You are divorced. The "hard part" has been done already. Now go your separate way. You are getting caught up in YOUR feelings again and not wanting to hurt him. You've "paid that fare" already and don't need to take that voyage again. HIS problems are HIS problems, not yours.

Jen, you are back to putting what you "want" and your "feelings" ahead of obedience to God.

Keep walking THAT path at your own peril.

I know you still "want the best for your ex," but until such time as he truly surrenders his life to Christ, you are whistling in the wind if you think ANYTHING you do will do anything other than give him a temporary "fix" for one of his many lustful cravings.

But as for "you and your house," you should follow the Lord.

"Do NOT be unevenly yoked." It begins with choices in whom to date or be "intimate" with.

God bless.

(((((Jen))))) All this emotional involvement and pain really sucks! But it, too, will end as we pass through this valley with Christ leading the way.

Signing yourself up to be kicked in the gut Jen?

Just wondering ....

Why does this feel like something you should do?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jen, I used to post as Walking On Eggs and yes I know your story very well. I really have to side with all the other posters here; you have to move on. This post demonstrates how nothing has changed with the collective you. But YOU have changed. There is a prince out there that you deserve. Give yourself that opportunity.

WOE

It's good to hear from old friends 2long and FH! Thanks for your perspectives, and encouragement to move on. Pep - I don't know why I seem to sign up to be kicked in the gut, maybe I just have such low self-esteem that I think it's as good as I can get. WOE, thanks for pointing out your old screen name, now I remember you! I do dream that there is a prince out there for me, but he just seems to be a frog hiding somewhere in a swamp I've never been to and can't seem to find! Meeting new single people is so hard!

Well, I have been getting phone calls from him again the past couple of days, and I just haven't answered the phone. He hasn't bothered to leave messages either. One option may just be for me to not answer any more calls. However, I think when I am feeling clearheaded and strong, I will answer sometime soon to tell him that I don't think we should continue to stay in touch, and that I don't think it will work out. I will encourage him to put all his efforts into his exGF and leave me alone. (Heck he won't email me at all for fear I forward his emails to her, and let her know he's been telling me he loves me again, and talking of getting back together again. He's always afraid I'm recording our phonecalls so I can send them to her - he is keeping her on the backburner....I'm still only one of 2 choices....I digress, I think I typed all that to convince myself I am doing the right thing.)

I have been mentally making a pros and cons list for him in my mind lately, and just finally sat down and wrote it all down. I've got 13 pros, and 24 cons. If I were to dig around in my journal from during our separation, I think I had a similar list, about double the number of cons. So not much has changed other than he confessed to cheating during our marriage and has accepted responsibility for his part in the downfall of our marriage. He's also apologized. His temper has cooled down. He treats me with more respect and kindness than he did during our separation. However, almost all the old red flags are still there, including his drinking, his poor listening skills, his manipulative nature, etc.

Sigh.....I so wish he and I COULD make things work and we could make each other happy and we could be together. It sort of breaks my heart to end contact with him again. I feel attached again....but if everyone I know says it's a bad idea and my cons list is sooo long, I rationally know I should walk away. Why get deeper into something that likely won't work out?

I'm just so lonely. I would really like to have a man in my life. However, my self-esteem is too low for me to come off as confident enough to win a man's attention, so I doubt I'll find anyone anytime soon. That and it really feels like all the men I cross paths with are already in relationships.

Enough of my woe-is-me song and dance I know. Really my life is pretty good, I should count my blessings if the only thing I'm lacking is male companionship. But it really frustrates me. I actually feel like a less worthwhile person because I am single and can't find a prince to call my own.

Sigh, I guess life isn't supposed to be easy.

Jen

Jen,

When you feel better about yourself, you will be thinking clear headed and you will have no need to answer his calls. You'll be out on dates with a man who would not foist his mental illness problems on you.

Do you really think you're clear-headed when you talk to him?

I do think I'm quite clear headed most of the times that I talk to him (except for that last time).

I just looked at that old photo of me and my exH on the MB photo thread. That was before all the infidelity. I see genuine happiness in both of our eyes. I still feel that happy sometimes, without my exH. I haven't seen joy like that in his eyes in years.

I guess he phoned 3x last night before I got home. I never noticed until just now due to the lack of messages. I am torn between just not answering the phone when he calls from now on(rude in my opinion), and answering one last time and telling him that I've decided I can't be in a relationship with him, that I just don't think it would ever work out (I'll likely do this the next time he calls). I will miss talking to him, that is for sure, even if I know being in a romantic relationship is a bad idea. I know, I need to drop him like a hot potato in order to move on emotionally. I intend to try.

Jen