****** deleted by Sally ******

Y’know? Before I bore everybody with my usual rambling, I’ll just stop and say Plan A does not seem to be effective with Phil. He hates it. He hates everything. He hates me. He misses me. He hates me. He hates it when I don’t give him attention and then he hates me when I do. Everything I do and say is wrong with him. Everything I don’t do and don’t say is wrong with him. I don’t know what to do anymore.

I’m sick from this. Heartsick. Stomach sick. Head sick. Lately, I haven’t wanted to live through this. What would be the point? Instead of feeling better about myself, I’ve only been feeling worse and worse. Instead of making change in myself for the better, I only seem to be failing myself and everyone else even more.

Today has me thinking that it's impossible to stick to Plan A, no LBing, and continued self-improvement with Phil and his totally inconsistent present behavior let alone his ever-changing revisionist history that he will not let alone. He still wants to do counseling. I want to do Plan B and sleep for the next fifty years, not necessarily in that order…

Sally

Your feelings and thoughts about all of this are common and you need to know that we ALL go through them. Validate them, accept them and then decide what to do with them. I can't tell you what to do regarding the Plan A stuff, but I hope that you have an "outlet" for your frustrations and you have familial and friends to support you.

Remember, your WH is who he is. You can't expect your "Plan" to change anything about him. While I don't necessarily agree with the "Plan A" as is practiced by most of the people on this board, the gist of the message is correct.

Make the changes that YOU NEED to make to be happy.....NOT what you think your WH will want to be happy. This is my opinion and may confuse you, please understand that. You are frustrated because you are not getting the "results" that you want. The changes that you make today ARE FOR YOU, NOT your WH. You do these things to feel better about yourself, not make him feel better. If you feel like you do now doing this, then maybe you need to "reevaluate" your plan.

I think one point you must realize and accept is the pain that you are experiencing. Bear with me here while I tell you a stupid story. When I was a surgery resident I hated to be on call for 36 hours at a time. I hated holding a retractor for 8 hours at a time, starving, and sweating my ball$ off while some arrogant 65 year old gray haired surgeon was yelling at me to "HOLD THE F-ING RETRACTOR better, son". I hated the late night admits, and the constant fatigue, and A$$ whippings from senior residents and faculty....But after a while I realized that it was all a NECESSARY evil to make me a better surgeon. I had to start at the bottom and take each step at a time. You can probably never know success untill you know failure. Trust me, I know failure... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I had to go through all of that to make it where I am today.

The same is true for you. You have to feel and experience all this pain to make it to the next level of recovery....with or without your WH. This isn't to say you have to be a doormat and take an A$$ kicking from your WH, but that you need to go through these early stages of pain to make it to the goal of recovery. This pain and devestation you are feeling is a "necessary evil". This too shall pass.

Goodluck,

LM

p.s. This is JMHO, so take it for what you want. You will not be offending me if you leave it.

lemonman sad it well. Lots of hugs to you.

Dobie

Thanks LM,

My grasping the most basic of things isn't always good when my head and heart function!

Family = nil. One elderly granny. Phil was my family along with the dogbeasts. I am thankful for the dogbeasts and thankfully enough, earlier, they showed Phil exactly WHOM they side with but they don't talk a lot!

Still got my closest, small nucleus of friends. They're supportive but very worried about me. Rapidly saying so long to many "so-called" friends, male and female alike, as recently they seem to take pleasure expressing either how much they want/wanted to sleep with me or how much they want/wanted to sleep with Phil... Usually this is accompanied by a healthy dose of "Sally this is your entire fault for not ___________ sooner."

Dunno. The changes I need to make me happier are not inconsistent with Plan A, but not exactly in the spirit of Plan A either. What will make me happier is getting back into an exec. position where I'm earning lots of dollars again. That will enable me to get another place to live. That'll be happier for me but still I'll still be living this crummy existence and it's not depression that makes me say, I don't see it changing. I've been through a lot. I don't believe "every dog has his day." I don't believe everyone gets a happy ending. I'm not a cynic -- I still hope and dream, but I know things don't always turn out for the best for everyone... Life just is...

I never really minded the person I was before. Sure I can stand some improvement but the changes I'm doing now DO have a particular Phil bent... because why not try? I don't like feeling this bad so if there is a chance at a happy ending I want to at least try. I just don't want to keep feeling like this that's all. Repetitive, but true.

It turns out, yes; "My Phil" is still there. When he comes out from hiding, the emotions run very high on both sides. We both were teary over soup earlier. There's something so wrong with all of this. I know I'm a mess but something is not right with Phil either. He's right in the middle of this A, justifying now with his revisionist history and yet, he's hurting so terribly over our relationship and everything that brought us to this point in time. I got to see it, not guess, for the first time today - I still don't know what it's all about for him. He couldn't speak the emotion was so thick in him. Just from this:

We were at his little table eating my soup.

Phil: I miss you.

Sally: Yeah? What do you miss about me?

He choked up. Tears, the works. Not angry tears. When he could speak, it was barely a whisper, head downcast:

Phil: You can't ask me that. It's too much of a question.

Sally: OK.

His pain was apparent, raw and he showed no frustration or anger about this missing me thing. And then I got a little teary because he let me see that the pain was -- there.

Your story about starting at the bottom isn't stupid at all. And I thought your delivery was very considerate btw, are you smarting from another post? We're cool. :-) I'd rather read honest criticism than placid bullsh*t any day anyway

I've started from the bottom many times. I think I'm finally beat this time is all.
:-(

Sally

Sally -

I love the way you write. I was just like you after D-day - even thought about ending my life. AND I am much, much, much older than you.

As much as we don't want it to, life goes on. Right now you are at the hardest part. But I promise it does get much better. Sally will move on with or without Phil. Take this time to better your life. Forget about him for now.

believer, thank you for that chin up.

There seems to be so little that will better my life... Still, ya better believe I'm adding this to one of the book projects in progress.

I'm not actively suicidal. Not yet. But that option is looking attractive. I'm tired. I know I am. I've had what seems like more than my fair share of loss (whatever that means!) and at 37 I am finally "Why Me-ing".

Is this the hardest part? Do you promise? 'Cause I think I've had about a hundred thousand hardest parts and I hoped there was some happy reward, but no, so far, there really isn't one.

Sal

Miss Sally -

You need to really look at your life, and your losses. I see that you have no parents or family still alive. What happened to them?

You are still young, and whole world is available to you. If you decide you want a child, you can go to a sperm bank. Everything is open to you.

You and I believe in the same God. He doesn't want you to be miserable.

Sally, it will get better. I had about the same many hardest parts as you, and it got better. Right when I was beginning to think that I was destined to always be "the tragic figure", I found happiness. And you know what? It was in me, and life...no one else.

I have no family aside from my siblings who all live in different corners of the world but one. And though I do have a daughter I didn't have her until I was 35.

You have your whole life ahead of you, I'm with Believer on this.

You still have hope and faith, I can read it in your words.

You hang on and hang in there. People care about you, and even if we are just a bunch of monikers and words on a forum, we will see you through this!

{{{{{Sal}}}}}

Ms. believer!

Yoo hoo! Um, I've examined. Why would you think I have not? (I'll skip any possible implication that somehow. I am responsible for the no-family situation.) Quite simply put and forgive the blunt response: They all died. Cancer, accidents and miscarriage, all of which were not blameable things but acts of Nature/God?the universe whatever...

I need no excuses to question God and up until this latest loss, I can honestly say I have not questioned. Faith was strong and my family life wasn't perfect but for some time, it was - GOOD. And then there were some problems, then some deaths and then some more.

So now, yes, it's just me, my elderly gran and some other elderly and rather distantly related relations. And let's not make the mistake of accusing Sally of relying too much on Mr. Phil. She didn't. But she did have one requirement and one stated preference when she accepted Phil's proposal all those years ago.

The requirement: Full agreement by both of us, that from the time I accepted Phil's proposal, we would remain together and be faithful to each other until one of us dies.

The stated preference: I'd prefer to be the one who dies first.

I had to give up a tremendous amount of independence to be with Phil. In my esteem, everybody gives up a lot of that, but I had a very good understanding even eight years ago, that I was alone in the world. So did Phil. So did ANYBODY that knew me.

My friends are bullsh*t about this situation. More even than I am. I'm still too glum to be very angry and I'm just not an angry kind of gal to begin with...

Dang believer, as I write this response, probably this IS the most irate I've been in a long time. You'd be surprised at how people judge me for having had all this death, and say the stupidest things... like, you're probably set financially or, you probably don't want kids if you're going to get cancer then...

I know you didn't, and wouldn't ever intend to poke like that but I have a bit of a sensitive place there!

Pudding-face

Awww, believer and weaver, many days the two of you have lifted me, informed me, let me know I wasn't alone. I value your gifts so much.

Please don't think I am so greedy and unfeeling that I don't appreciate when people offer care, advice and love. I listen. I listen to it all. It's partly because I had so little of my parents, and at least with my mum we knew time was finite, that I learned to listen and, whenever possible, to grow from the experiences of others.

Mi chiamano Mimi. ||cough|| ||cough|| NO! :-)

I never felt like I was a tragic figure - which only pissed people off or made them sort of shake/scratch their heads. And this is what is so sad to me. Most people could not understand that I felt LUCKY to have what I did have. I was given more love in a very short time than most people are granted even in long lifetimes...

My faith was strong. I relied on it. It didn't let me down. For the longest time, adversity didn't change that. 'til now - it's another log for my mental character flaw bonfire... because aside from questioning why is this happening to me, I'm questioning why I stopped having faith.

You know? I don't think it's tragic to be AWARE of reality. I had to be careful with my physical-personal well-being. I didn't have to be careful about loving so long as I kept myself fed, clothed, sheltered and safe. I knew marriage meant I would have less control over those things than I was accustomed to having and I took that risk. No one made me.

Phil walking out rocked me so hard. All of the subsequent fall-out in the months since are taking their toll. It is against my nature to be this much of a whiny suck and here I am.

Sal

believer?

I heard you about the sperm bank. :-) Thank you! It's sooo OT, but it's awfully good to have safe people to discuss sperm n' eggs with!

Fathering and sperm depositing aside, My eggs are about cooked. Peri-menopausal diagnosed at 35, but I know it started earlier - those hot flashes! Damn!

I'm having a difficult time getting my doc to freeze the any viable eggs I have left for future use. She doesn't see much point. :-(

Also, these last few months have me convinced that choosing to be a single parent is not optimal for me and incipient child... at least that's how I'm feeling now. It could change. I want to be a mom, but I don't want to be a mom so badly that I would knowingly and willingly put a child at risk - because I'm a wreck these days!

If this time next year or the year after, the dogs are still with me, alive and well, if I'm earning a decent enough living and can provide a physical home, and if I still want to be a mom so much, maybe I'll look into adopting an older child... Phil and I had looked into adopting older children as well as babies. Older kids need parents too.

Wouldn't it be a wonderful cap on this story if I turned into the old woman who lived in a shoe? Minus the whipping and starvation of course!

weaver n' believer - Love you guys! Thanks really. I'm trying not to give up all of my hopes.

Sally

Oh Sally - you are so funny! You won't always be sad. I promise. One day you could adopt children - there are tons that need families. Or you could be a foster parent. I always wanted to do that, but felt like giving the kids up would be too hard.

As far as your faith, I have lost mine too, from time to time, especially after D-day. I thought I was a good woman, doing my best, but it just wasn't enough. But our God will see us through this. I promise you that too.

Sally, I think you came to the board when I was on a trip. Your WBF sounds a lot like my WH. Immune to Plan A, wants to be my friend and completely clueless. I'm going to read some more of your original posts.

Chin up. More support from me later.

gg

This part jumped out at me. Were you in this kind of position when you and Phil got together? Is there something about being in this kind of position that makes you more attractive to Phil?

Not just the money (though that may be significant, too), but the confidence, maybe? The status? Something else? (I'm having trouble coming up with things that wouldn't make Phil sound petty and self-serving, but maybe you can think of how things were different then vs now)

I say, go for it. Best case, it makes you more attractive to Phil. Worst case, if you have to move on without him, at least you'll do it in style.

Grapegirl, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.

smidgen - well, yes, I've always earned well for myself. I'm not rich but my income (when working) is enough for both of us live decently on, as is Phil's. And yeah, when Phil and I met, I did well for myself in terms of compensation and self-confidence. I was bringing in about twice his income then and life was pretty good. I liked my work and had a life. Phil, btw, thought I was a college student when we met and started spending time together, so my earning potential wasn't the main attraction for him.

Over the years, responsibilities at work changed for both of us. We grew into roles that had more responsibility. I went to work on a new project that was exciting and lucrative. By last year when I retired, my compensation was still high, and Phil is now bringing in roughly three times more than I did. Yeah, I think me being a powerhouse was attractive for Phil and Phil likes his money, but the stress was a killer for me -- I was stressed out ALL the time. I had NO life. I had no time for friends any more. I didn't like the person I was becoming. So it was tough for me and tough for Phil to see me unhappy about work.

The owner and CEO of my company were extremely demanding, my hours were always long, but the days were turning into 20 hour days every day and I'd be tapped for weekends too. I know it isn't so unusual, but I was ready to work a little less and be a LOT less stressed out. Phil had been pressuring me to retire for a while - a couple of years actually. I'd resisted because we weren't married yet. I wanted to be married before I quit and until that time, I wanted to keep my career moving forward. Another decision I regret now but I didn't know how to decide differently then.

We purchased our little condo - the one Phil is in now, when I retired, I kept working with my old company for another month after I left... I guess I felt responsible. Money started to be a major problem for Phil. We had PLENTY of it but it was like he did this about-face and didn't want to let any of his go. I'd always thought he was such a generous guy. This is when I first started to really take inventory of whether or not he really was generous... and I'm still confused on that.

A couple of weeks into retirement we found out I was pregnant. My emotions were out of whack. I was freaking out about our finances - not how much we had but that Phil suddenly wasn't sharing. I was freaking out about not being married. I was scared about being single (technically) and pregnant in our social setting. I felt like we were fighting often and over stupid, stupid things. Looking back, I think the pregnancy scared Phil and when we lost it and he realized we weren't going to have a baby, that was when he decided he wanted out.

I really think that was the tipping point - it seemed like problems snowballed and we never recovered. Me being depressed and not getting good treatment hurt us even more. My therapist really f*sked me up - Phil and I have discussed it since he left. We both think the therapist was deliberately trying to break up our relationship - Phil had been thinking that the WHOLE time I was in therapy but never said anything - not good.

Sorry for such a long response there... hope this will help you with your insight to what's going on with me. I guess the short answer would have been, yes, it would have been better if I stayed at my job...

:0)

Sally

smidgen? MelodyLane? WAT? NCW? believer? weaver? Everybody?

You know I do re-think all of my time shared with Phil and all of these mistakes, lost opportunities and the eventual breakdown. I think there is something more that is wrong with Phil than just his cheating and abandoning me. We're all flawed as humans, but I think there is a basic character problem in him that is deeper and has absolutely nothing to do with me. It's subtle. I'm not a mental health professional and I'm just working on what I know about people and myself and Phil. It's coming out in Phil with regard to me now, but essentially, whatever the character problem is, it's his own problem and it's added to the other real problems we faced as a couple. I hope I'm wrong. I'd like to be wrong.

Sally

Sally - Phil's not wanting to share his money is a big red flag for me. Before we got married, my WH shared everything, and was very generous. After we got married, his money was his. Believe me, it causes lots of problems in a marriage.

Give a little get a little? Early this morning I decided to trust myself a little more and then if all fails, well, I can live with that. Below is the note I sent Phil and the response I got back -- 100% Phil and no hint of the Alien...

Hey babe,

Glad I got to see you are OK and doing better. I was worried about you being by all by yourself when you sounded so sick. Hope the "Jewish Penicillin" helped! :-) Thanks for the understanding you showed after being kind of surprised. Now that I know you need more "lead time" before a visit, I will do that. Were you able to finish up your printing at the office? The drive home was rainy and windy. The puppy was carsick. Oh! Your macaroons were a big win yesterday during the drive home. I hit traffic and needed that pick-me-up and there it was! Yummy! You said it was important that I have those good cookies... you must have known there was magic in them! :-)

Had a fun afternoon and night - wished my grandma an early Happy Mom's day - wish your mom a happy Mother's Day from me? Later on I did a little shopping and went to see Fever Pitch with some friends. It was cute. You know how I like a Farrelly bros. flick! Hey, you know what else actually? I had a fun time walking the dogs with you yesterday. It was such a simple thing that didn't cost anything and didn't require any special planning or preparation and yet, it was an especially warm feeling to be out in the light, light rain, walking around the block with you. I hadn't planned on staying at all - originally, I'd just thought I would drop off the soup and flowers and scoot back home. I was happy I took you up on your suggestion and stayed to have that walk together. It was good.

You can send me e-mail back. I like it...

With love, me

*** Phil responded ***

Hi there,

Thanks for the soup. I am heating up some more right now. Sorry about being so difficult to start out with, but I am glad you stayed for a bit. It was a nice visit :-)

I did get my forms printed out and then came back home and pretty much have been laying around alternately sleeping, reading, watching tv, and surfing the news. feeling a bit better too but just a little weak still and a little scratchy. i was supposed to go home for a visit but i cancelled and Mom understood. I will pass along your wishes.

I have been thinking of you today too. I know it can be a hard day for you so my thoughts and heart are with you. I still say your Mom would be proud of the daughter she raised :-)

Next week is [his big sis's] graduation ceremony from her Master's program. They asked her to be the standard bearer for her class which I thought was pretty neat.

That's about all for now - my soup is ready so off I go. Glad you enjoyed the mararoons :-)

With love, Phil