Those were wonderful pictures Th.
I lived vicariously through all your slides. What a nice looking group of people. Somebody is a photographer in your family. I absolutely adore the picture of the little girl with flowers in her hair.
Your vacation does Not resemeble any of my vacations spent with w/h.
In order for us to start a vacation, we have to have world war III blow up, then we work our way to finally getting to the point of packing our stuff, then xwh has to grumble about the way I put things in the car, he then repacks the car, mutters under his breath, and then we all finally jump in the car and it takes a mile or so before he can relax and start to enjoy himself.
No wonder we have had only a few vacations in our 26 years together.

Hi t&l


been busy with Mikey for a little while, then been doing my Family history for a bit of fun - I thought <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> - and for the kids one day.

Been doing A2's side tonight ...... pretty short .... KIA or died of injuries... I think we can skip THAT particular family tradition thankyou very much.

I went back to end of Boer War so far .... crikey what do the men do on his side??? stand up and hold signs ?????
Also found out they usually married later in life than most others as well. 30's to 40's which was not the norm back then.

I've exhausted my knowledge so its back to A2's Aunt to try & get family history which is all in her head & family papers. They also were not good at keeping records or writing to their wives ..... mmmmm inherited behaviour perhaps?

On a side note..A2 got his family crest sent to him this week ... official motto is " Y Cyfiawn hy Megis llew"
which means .... sorta 'righteous & bold as the Lion' ..
I suspect that means his family was bigger and better thieves than the clan next door way back when.. lol
I think he'll be very amused. He'll probably boast he came from the biggest bunch of thieves in Ireland... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
MAybe we shouldn't encourage him ..he usually doesn't need any encouragement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Anyway I liked the photos of the house..what about the new garden??? Mmmm???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Are you back at work yet? I'm holding out for tomorrows lotto draw...$19m ..now thats a retirement plan I could handle <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There are four photographers in the immediate family.

Dad dabbles, but dabbles very well. I would call him a skilled hobbyist.

I worked my way through college with photography, working in a very specialized studio doing all sorts of custom work. Someday I will have a nice camera again, but kids are so expensive! In the meantime I borrow from time to time.

Brother #2, Flard, has taken quite a few classes, but not as many as me. I can't get too puffed up, because he has had photos published, even if it was in boring old textbooks and a reptile magazine. (Did that sound too jealous? Oops.)

Neaksis is really into portraiture, and takes gorgeous B&W photos of little kids dressed up in old-fashioned stuff. She has been too busy to do much of that recently, but hasn't lost her touch. She is the creator of the darling fairy pictures of the most byootiful little girl in the world. (In case you couldn't tell, I made the little girl.)

The Dervish is unusually docile today. His temp must have spiked, because he has spent the last hour quietly lying on the couch, drifting in and out of consciousness. He's going to be a real riot at the school program.

Grandpa was probably up most of the night. Somebody must have messed with his TV shutter-offer, because it was still blaring at midnight, but I was too tired to get up and make him go to bed.

Aww! She is just precious. You come from a great pool of photographers.
Me, I take pictures mostly of my fingers, floor, half a person, etc........ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hey everyone!

Been busy, sorry I haven't had a chance to look at the pics.

SS, I'm interested in your perspective on my situation, when you have time. I have plenty of patience!!!

t&l,

I love how your family operates! One big family team! A great culture! I'm going to remember that when I get together with mine in a few weeks.

We can't all be nurses can we??? Every family needs one, however!!

I'll take a look at the pics when I have a minute!

Hi AW,
You made me laugh.

Mikey is well today, and making sure you get plenty of exercise?

CC, I think it must mean he wants to go back. You are good to notice that. Why else would he say he didn't want to, unless he was considering it. You don't threaten to not do something that you are never going to do anyway.

Hi T&L.
I'm still thinking - and I don't have much time to type today. But I acknowledge I owe you.

CSue,
I still have yours on my mind too. Spent last few days (mostly) out of the office. How are you doing at this point?

SS

You thought that, too, huh?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Boy, I sleep for 1 hr. and 15 minutes, and it's like a convention assembled here. I'd stay and frolic but grandmotherly duty (read, "admiration") beckons. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Hi Neak,
You sound happy today. In fact, you mostly sound happier.

I hope most days are good ones.

SS

Hi Neak sis !

Good Gawd

just woke up again..what time is it? 4.00am

SS missed you AGAIN... time waits for no woman..wheres my botox


Neak, brothers need to be kept in their place - but they never listen to GOOD advice which is what they get from sisters... well me anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Changed Mikey..pheeeeeeeew ,,,might try for a few hours sleep before DS gets home from night clubbing.

Can't remember who he went out with , karen, or Carol or Kelly or something .. never can keep up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

All I know is she had rings in her nose and tongue and ,, well places I'm not going to speculate on I expect. His sister will pump him tomorrow for info... she says he looks so unhappy without one steady girl ... and all he does is complains that the women in this family want to run his life..... his Aunt Mandy says well someone has to don't they?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Men ..no sense of humour I tell you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

night night all..again

Hi SS,

I am happier overall, and I haven't forgotten that I have more comments to make about that - quite a few, actually. It has been a long, busy week or two.

Last night I had a little bit of spotting after a day of hard work, so I will be taking it easier for a bit. Hopefully that will give me more time. I am going to limit myself to light housework for a couple of days. ***tinkling, insincere laugh*** Around here there is no truly light housework, but it's all relative. Perhaps lighter would be more accurate.

Yesterday at work AJ had a bit of a scare when a familiar type of vehicle pulled into the parking lot of the store, driven by a long-haired brunette with big sunglasses. He hid till he could make sure it wasn't...anyone.

I was very happy he told me, and very happy he felt that way. During the first abortive recovery, it didn't remotely occur to him to avoid even the smell of her, i.e. driving past her house on the way someplace. It is good to see even the little evidences that his thinking has changed.

Brothers....the same the world over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


The Dervish is still asleep and toasty. He will not be happy to wake up and find he missed the hot lunch.

The Dervish is still asleep and toasty. He will not be happy to wake up and find he missed the hot lunch.

If he wants it hot, put salsa on it. That'l teach him to complain. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
SS

Oh, and about housework.

All you gals work too hard. I wish it were different, but I am glad you are willing. We men would do well to be more thankful, and express it more often.

My W is one of my greatest blessings (right there with "help from God.") and I tell her daily. I wouldn't want her to think I was taking her for granted. I don't think God would like it if I took her for granted.

May all of you know how valueable you are, may you know your worth - which is priceless. May it show in the smiles on your faces .........more often than it has been.

SS

I am going to have to get that nice tribute printed on a T-shirt to wear when I have to do housework and don't want to. Ok, let's be honest. That would be most of the time.

If the truth were known, I would rather not go out to work lots of days either.

I think playing with the grand kids, and reading books would be nice.
Ha, like there was any chance of that in the next 15 years.

Neak, that's why they call it "work."

SS

CSue,
I'm going to do this from my POV. Remember, I am NOT an expert, so you are getting my opinion. At least, it may give you some things to think about.

SS, so much to say.....but I'm trying to practice "self-control"! One of the gifts I received from all I learned during the process of recovery, is how to cope without harming others. Through journaling, (2 l's or 1 l? in journaling), practicing journalling...can't decide which looks right!

Through WRITING in a journal - I can dump garbage heaps of emotional baggage, and not harm another soul! In addition, I walk 3 miles everyday, and on certain days I can really move with great energy. My coping skills are greatly improved. God has blessed me in this way!!!

Trying to practice
If you read Pep's thread on "if your spouse says they will try" you would have an idea of my next question. Are you succeeding? Does your H think you are succeeding? Do your boys think so?

These are not inflammatory questions, I want to know where you are. Angry outbursts were one of my problems. My W didn't want to be around me when I was like that. She wanted peace.

What I wanted, was to be understood - and considered in her decisions. If I felt I was ignored, of that my feelings were not considered, I was angry.

As you already know, no one wants to listen to an AO, so she would tune me out. I could tell I was being ignored, I would get even more angry.

The other thing I learned, was that you don't just hold it in. You find ways to discuss it that are respectful. If you just hold it in, you are delaying the reaction, but the bad feelings are still there, growing. That's why I asked you if you found a way to talk to him about it.

Unless he is crazy, he cares about your feelings. He may have bad habits, and he may get a thrill from women noticing him, but he wants to give the habit up, and he wants you to know you are his first and only priority. You help him cope when you discuss your feelings to him, and you give him strength to improve.

The simple example is teaching your child to walk. You hold out your hands, and you call to them. When they take those few steps, you tell them over and over what a good job they did.

We can call this admiration, and I saw your comment about it not being a desirable need, but think how long it would take that same child to learn if you sat and read the paper while they looked up to you for help, and comfort. All of have the need to know if our actions are pleasing to our spouse. (and others) T&L has (with God's aid) mostly recovered from being married to the clam, but it hurt her badly, and the damage was deep. It will be years before she understands how it is intertwined into her life, and affected her relationships with those around her. Some of that understanding may only come in the next life.

So, anyway, your H can function with out it, but the learning, and habit changes will come so much more quickly if you give that admiration to him - and if you continue to communicate your feelings when you are hurt. He needs both, but the people in education tell us that positive reinforcement works better than "the floggings will continue until morale improves."

Do you feel there is balance there - between praise when he does well, and sadness when he does not?


What I found out a few days ago, when I could bring myself to ask peacefully was whether or not he noticed Miss America, before she appeared before us with her breathy "Hi".

And his answer was "Yes". That answer brought on a whole NEW need to exercise my coping skills. Talk about triggers!! This is a good one. You see I know exactly what happened now.

She was responding to him. He started it when he noticed her. What is so irritating to me is that this is old bad habit stuff that he was supposed to stop, and had stopped. In perspective, let's call it "slippage", back into old habits.

Now, I am not saying it is OK for him to do this. But, you need to know what your boundaries are, AND WHAT YOU WILL DO WHEN THEY ARE BROKEN. Many set the boundaries, but don't have a clue what to do when the line is crossed. I hope Steve worked with you on this part of it.

Much like you, I had good reason for getting angry. It's just that AO's don't work, so we need to figure out what WILL work and do that instead.

I find that my W really does love me, and cares about my feelings (nearly always.) When we can communicate our feelings, when I meet her needs, so her taker can recede (so she doesn't feel like SHE is getting taken) , and when I don't drain the Love Bank with LB's then she feels like helping me out with my needs, and even my wants.


His habits were such that they extended by several months our coaching with SH as SH taught my husband what bad ideas they were. Mostly due to immature junior schoolish locker room junk. SH basically told my H to GROW UP!

Can I add the above to this other post below? They weren't close together when you posted them.

My husband developed this habit that is maddening to other drivers. It's very uncomfortable to be in the car with him driving. What he does is that as he is approaching a traffic light that is yellow or red, he puts his car into neutral and coasts forward on existing momentum. Which can be crawlingly slow................................

If he were the only driver on the road, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion. But he is not. What kind of person ignores others to do their own thing like this when it has such a big affect on the other drivers? Why would a husband continue to do this when it caused these kinds of feelings (see below) for his wife?

So I always take reading material and sing songs to myself to deal with the stress.

What does he get out of coasting to the light, that is worth giving his wife this kind of stress to deal with? Why would a man do that?

In my mind, this is a serious indicator of how he sees your feelings. That, or he is just really dense. Either way, it begs for a discussion.

So, my first point is that communication is really important, and yes, if you think SH would approve, perhaps you can talk about Love Busters now.

Early in our marriage there were things about my driving bothered my W. I didn't get it when she would yell, or when she would be sarcastic. I did get it when one day she said "It hurts me that you would continue to drive like that when you know it makes me uncomfortable." I was dense, but that was plain enough for even me to get. If he is the person I hope he is, and if his needs are being met well so that his taker isn't in charge, he will respond by helping you with these things.

If for some reason his taker is in charge, wait for a better time.


It was my anger at suspecting this is what happened that set me on my 1 day rampage! What he does is, oh this is hard to describe because the words will sound like I'm exaggerating....but I'm not - it's almost like out of a movie how my husband "checks-out" women he finds attractive.

I've been with him plenty of times when he's done this. And it feels REALLY disrespectful of me! The object of his intensity NEVER fails to notice him, noticing her.

I would like to spend more time on THIS part, but I am running out of time. Haven't even really gotten to YOUR FEELINGS.

It was good to get the background, because I didn't know what his habits were, so I might have lectured you on AO's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As I said, I can see why you would get angry, but AO's don't work. I would guess Steve helped you learn the things that do work, and I won't spend a whole lot of time discussing that part of it.

I am sure you were thinking something along the lines of "He knows better than this, he knows. How can he be doing this again after all we have been through?" These kinds of things are not fun at all, and that is a very big understatement.

So Miss America's response is what I've seen in the past. Added to the situation is that "How could I be so clueless, this was going on, you ask?"

Big surprise to me too.....here's my insight to that. I was relaxed enough not to notice....because a couple of things. I am not so hyper-vigilent like I was for the 1st year after d-day. 2ndly...following church services, I am usually in a peaceful meditative state that is probably introspective - I'm simply living in my own head reflecting about the service, basically I'm checked out of reality for the time being. If I'm really lucky I can stay this way all day - it's a great feeling.

The short version is that you are trusting him again. I see that as very, very good.


So it was in that state of mind I felt so rudely jolted out, when she purred by with her "Hi". I guess you could say, in a sense I was at an especially vulnerable state.

He was not protecting you, and he should have been. If it had been a knife wielding assailant, bent on doing you physical harm, he would have protected you with everything he had. He had the same charge to protect your FEELINGS, and he failed to even perceive the threat, then he welcomed the emotional harm TO YOU to feed his own ego. Does he realize this?

If you haven't yet, I suggest having this discussion with him using this or similar examples. He being a guy, (you can substitute the word "dense" for the phrase "he being a guy" to get the full flavor of the comment) he may not realize the harm he has done, or that he does. It's built into us to respond to women. Oh shoot, let me give more background.

There are two parts of us. The natural, and the spiritual. The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the beginning. We are here to subdue the natural, and give ascendency to the spiritual. The natural notices women, and wants to respond as he responded. Wants to be noticed, wants to get admiration from all sources, even at the expense of his W.

He needs to tame this for himself, even more than for you. If he can't, or won't, he limits him self
severely. And also, how much closer would you feel if you KNEW he would always protect you. Is there anything you wouldn't do for him? He needs to know, and understand.


One of the most important things I learned from SH during coaching, was how NOT to blow my husband out of the saddle when mistakes are made. SH is very clear to hold people responsible for their behavior regardless of the circumstances. Bad behavior by one party, does not give the other party a free pass to act badly in response.

Probably already covered this one. You know what to do, at least I think so.

And....I was a slow learner on this one. So, although slow - I learned well. To answer your question, we haven't discussed it, because it hasn't been safe for me to trust myself not to blow him out of the saddle...

So, that was then. Have you spoken to him about it yet?
You need this for YOU. From where I sit, this is more for you now. I can't talk to him, or help him, but I can talk to you, and help you. You need to talk to him for your own peace of mind, and you need to do it because your M won't be what it should be, or could be if it isn't worked out.

But I have learned patience - so I will know when the time is right, and we'll have a civilized discussion about it. What I plan to do is suggest we pull out his recovery plan that he wrote under SH's guidance and review it. Believe me...this type issue is in the recovery plan...and I'll take it from there.

If you wait too long, the details will be fuzzy in his mind. I mean, it's your call, but I would say sooner than later.


From another post:
SS,

Interesting in your case that the LB's were the source of the main problem. Did you and your wife do the LB questionnaire, and review them with each other?

We did the EN one, the LB one, and the RC one. All of them helped.

See, we knew the object was marital improvement. We didn't feel like it was a personal attack. We looked at it like "if we do this, we can have a better relationship, and be more in love." Both of us wanted that.


My husband had a boatload of bad habits when it came to dealing with other women. His recovery plan covered them all. It's interesting, because I became aware of his bad habits while we were dating, and they continued though out our marriage. It's just that prior to d-day, because I trusted him so blindly/completely I didn't let them bother me.

You were used to it, and nothing bad had ever happened, so you just lived with it.
It's really lucky for us men that you gals marry us anyway. If you looked at it from a logical standpoint, we would probably never be able to talk you into it. LOL. Or in other words, we need help, so glad you are willing to help us.


Whew that changed after d-day. I have ZERO tolerance for any of that stuff now. And he had to agree to stop immediately, once and for all, forever - before I would agree to continue our relationship. To give the man credit, he met ALL my expectations regarding what he needed to do.

He met them all UNTIL NOW?
Are you worried now, or just trying to figure out how to get past this one? Think on this one.


It wasn't easy because they were lifelong habits, well since middle school I would say. But he agreed after talking with SH that they were bad ideas.

SH also said we should review the recovery plan every so often as a reminder. It's probably been at least 6-9 months since we've done that. Wake up call for me to pull it out every 6 months regardless.

Talk to him about protecting you. I think he needs to see it like that. He failed big time. He let the assailant get to you. What kind of a man lets his wife be attacked like that? He needs to hear it from you - about your feelings.

On meeting needs:

You have to learn how to meet them the way HE wants them to be met. You'll be amazed to learn how different that might be compared to what you think.

And AJ needs to learn the same about you. It sort of follows what I've heard people say about "Love" Languages.

If your mate's love language is "French" for instance...and you're speaking "Spanish" - well then it's not working very effectively is it?

I have read that book, and you are exactly right. I think you get this part really well.

It also makes sense that something you think is perfectly acceptable, is a LB to your spouse. LB's are the same as needs. We should think about how different we are, and get our spouse to be honest about the things that we do that drive them nuts. IF you really love someone, you won't drive them nuts on purpose.


So as you all can see, this incident has scraped up all kinds of garbage....and being the opportunist I am...I plan to turn it into a positive. And learn what God's lesson for me is, in all of this. Because that's why it's happened...there's a lesson for me here. And one for my husband if he chooses to see it that way. And he should, if I can refrain from blowing him out of the saddle.

I had no intention of going into all this detail - sorry about that, I must have needed to!

I am glad you went into detail. It helped me understand much.
Don't wait too long. Both of you need to discuss this. But for different reasons.

Marital improvement is ongoing. It's a process, not an event.

Rejoice in how far you have come, rejoice that you can yet make things even better. Try not to think about how much work it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SS

Interesting that you should say that, and I don't have any time right now because I've got to get across the lake, write 2 checks, and get them to the post office in 40 minutes. Yee-hahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But I had some thoughts along those lines when I read the EN questionnaire a few days ago, and completely rejected the idea of seriously "taking" the test. Two main reasons: (1) Way too much introspection for me. Anybody who thought I was kidding when I said I was afraid of deep water and sharks, should rethink their assessment; and, (2) why would I want to analyze all the things I "need" when I'm so completely unlikely to ever have any chance of getting them met, and am doing just fine ignoring them? "Why stir the pot?" I asked myself. And myself replied, "Why, indeed?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

The answer to "Why" is that it's the right thing to do. Progression is expensive sometimes, but I just can't see you not wanting to continue.

Fear? Sure, I believe you.

Once I asked you something to the effect that "if God is going to perform a miracle in your marriage, how will he do it?"

There has to be a starting place, and he often uses simple things to bring his work about.

Please, I don't mean to cause harm. I'll stop if you wish.

Pray, and proceed with caution depending on your answer.

SS

Well, I had to give up on the yee-hah dash across the lake when I got partway home and realized I was still driving the van, which I was to have left behind for the girls to haul kids in to church tomorrow. So I'll pay 2 bills late. What are they going to do? Repossess me? Hah! I should be so lucky! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Let me try to explain a little more slowly here. Going over that questionnaire, for me, was like trying to read Swahili, or hearing about a completely different species and trying to apply their special characteristics to MY species. It was just completely, totally, absolutely foreign. I thought to myself, "Wow! You mean people really expect to get this stuff from another person?" I wouldn't even know how to answer it honestly, since I could say, yes, this is extremely important to me as an emotional need, but it would all be theoretical and I wouldn't know if I was answering what I really wanted now or what I would've wanted once, or thought I ought to want. Life has made me ferociously-independent, because I have to be. Which doesn't detract from my appreciation for the lawn work, or the house work, or the meals and treats the girls fix for me. I love being babied, but when nobody's around to do it, I can fend very well for myself, thank you, and will. Gotta go. HP's here to pick me up and take me home. Why don't I just ask him to wait while I finish this? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

t&l