Well the past few days have left me hopeful and scared all at the same time.

WH has shown great progress in his desire to keep NC, air out the lies, open up his life, and become a family again.

He had his friend go for the pickup of his belongings because he knew seeing the OW would be too hard for him, and he didn't want to do it. (The OW didn't have everything of WHs together, so the friend has to go back again in a few days. I am sure this is a way for her to keep some 'power')

WH has come clean on his lies over the past month or so, and been very honest to any question I ask, even though he is embarrassed to answer sometimes.

WH gave me the passwords to his e-mail and asked that I delete any OW messages.

He knows my family is not really all that happy that I am 'back together' with WH. They are upset at how much hurt he has caused, and can't see how I could forgive him for that. WH knows this, and he said he wished he could change that, and never have hurt me, but he can only better himself and love me from here on out.

I have made it clear to him that I can’t and won’t get hurt again…and he promises that he understands.

This sounds great, (isn't there always a but?) BUT....
The OW sent him a letter that he received on Saturday. He was honest about it, and asked if I wanted to read it. She had sprayed perfume on it, very heavily. I read it and then he discreetly hid the letter in his bathroom. He put it in a zip lock bag, to keep the smell I am sure.
When I say I love you, he sometimes says 'I love you too, and I never stopped loving you' and he sometimes says 'I know'.
He has said that he still cares about the OW...and waves of emotions come over them. He said 'people tell me they will go away in time, I just have to keep busy'.
He and the OW shared a house before the whole blow out. He changed the telephone password to check the voicemails and checks the house voicemail to see if the OWsH or friends leave messages a few times a day.
When I talk to him about NC for life, and that sort of thing, he sometimes says 'I am done with that B____, and our children and you deserve so much more then I have been giving, and I am sorry'. Then sometimes he says 'even if I want to contact her I can't, I got a RO.' Which makes me wonder....

He is rather distant still….sometimes he is very touchy lovey and other times if I reached over to hold his hand he would move his hand…

Suggestions? Ideas? Thoughts? Thank you J
Danielle

Danigirl,

It definitely sounds if your H is in withdrawal from the OW…that’s why he sometimes acts so distant. He probably feels confused and conflicted within himself during those times. And during his “distant” times, he probably also resents you for his “withdrawal pain” and from not being able to have contact with the OW… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yes, I know this is so very much unfair towards you as the BS... You are the one who have real reason to feel resentful and terribly hurt & devastated, but I’m just trying to give you some insight into what's probably going on in your H’s foggy head. The “fog” sometimes goes hand in hand with withdrawal and it’s possible for the “fog” to return from time to time during the withdrawal process. Please read this thread on withdrawal. It will give you more understanding and insight into this and there is also some guidelines you can follow to help your H through this difficult time.

Blessings,
Suzet

(((Danielle)))

I’ve followed your story a little, though I don’t know if I’ve posted to you before. Yes, likely your husband is going through withdrawal and IMHO you must aid him by no longer enabling bad behavior. Your words and your actions must be in-line. People going through withdrawal often sneak a taste of the forbidden fruit until they either go back to their addiction or kick it to the curb.

“””I have made it clear to him that I can’t and won’t get hurt again…and he promises that he understands.”””

OK, so let’s ensure that YOU follow through on that.

“””WH gave me the passwords to his e-mail and asked that I delete any OW messages.”””

Are you sure that’s the only e-mail account he has? Are you able to monitor his internet activities?

“””The OW sent him a letter that he received on Saturday.”””

Did he open it before telling you about it? If so, he did this knowing it would hurt you. No contact works both ways, why did he even read it? That is a bad behavior did you express this to him.

“””He was honest about it, and asked if I wanted to read it.”””

IMHO he should not have had to ask you, he should of given it to you to dispose of as you wish. Because he was honest about it, does not make it good behavior.

“””I read it and then he discreetly hid the letter in his bathroom. He put it in a zip lock bag, to keep the smell I am sure.”””

OK, so he’s tested a boundary already. Does it not hurt you that he sealed her aroma and hid it in the bathroom? I’m sure it does, so what are you going to do about it? You’ve told him that you won’t get hurt again, now follow through with some action. HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE. Don’t let him manipulate, lie, or hide things…PERIOD

Earlier you said “””WH knows this, and he said he wished he could change that, and never have hurt me, but he can only better himself and love me from here on out.””” And he can, but this letter thing is not changing or bettering himself. It’s simply bad addictive behavior that must have consequences.

”””He changed the telephone password to check the voicemails and checks the house voicemail to see if the OWsH or friends leave messages a few times a day.”””

Another bad behavior. He’s keeping involvement in her life and it must end. If you tolerate these things you are enabling him to continue his path of destruction.

”””When I talk to him about NC for life, and that sort of thing, he sometimes says 'I am done with that B____”””

That’s fine but thus far his actions do not match his words.

Sorry ... my senses are all shouting [color:"red"] DANGER[/color]

Keep your heart and your wallet guarded .... this ain't over.

Pep

PS ... I ditto everything Lost Husband Bill said.

Suzet, thank you for the link...I will read up.

I am having a hard time with the whole withdrawl process. I feel like I am walking on egg shells. I want to be around him 24/7 so I know what he is doing, but I know that he has to figure this out for himself and make the right choices on his own. I want to call him 30 times I day and say 'where are you' but he does call me and let me know a couple of times what he has been doing.

Okay so here is the hard part, for me anyway.

The letter issue. He told me he got it before he opened it. Because he is pending the criminal case, and on a no contact order, the letter is proof that he will need in court. I should have taken it when he showed me and not let him open it, but he would have seen it in court, so I didn't know how to handle it. I am NOT happy about the hiding it in the bathroom and keeping it in a zip lock baggie. What do I say/do about this though? The OW was very controlling, and I know that was bad... I don't want to allow these things, but I also don't want to have him see me as a pushy controlling person so early in the withdrawal. How do I approach this?

Also, the phone thing does bother me. I actually just changed the password on the answering machine so he doesn't know it. Will this upset him? Probably. Am I conflict avoiding? Yes. I will have to tell him that I changed it and why. I need to do something about it. The telephone is in his name, as is the power. When he talked to the landlord he told her that he was disconnecting them and the OW could turn them on in her name if she wanted. The landlord asked him to please leave them on until she was able to talk to the OW about her desire to stay and her ability to pay the rent. Well that was Friday. WH called the landlord again Sunday and she hadn't heard from OW, but didn't want him to 'take any drastic steps yet'.
I actually asked WH this morning what his plan for the telephone was. He said 'I guess I have to wait for the landlord'. I understand waiting for the power, but why the telephone? I could shut it off myself, but I feel like HE needs to do that.

This morning when I called his house the phone was busy. I called back about 20 minutes later. I asked him who he was talking to. He said he had just woken up and he wasn't talking to anyone. He said his little brother may have used the phone, he isn't sure, since he was sleeping. I am on the alert and I question him about everything. I think this upsets him, but I can't trust him right now.....

Danielle

"Give me the letter OW wrote. I will store it in a safe place."

Then give it to someone you trust for safe-keeping ... and your H does not know where.

Pep

“””but I know that he has to figure this out for himself and make the right choices on his own.”””

Keep in mind, that his “right choices” led to this mess. Obviously, he has a problem making good decision. Therefore, he needs your help in continually doing the next right thing. And the biggest way you can help is not to enable him to continue to make bad choices. When he does make a bad choice, you have to show through words and actions what affect his choice has.


“””The letter issue. He told me he got it before he opened it. Because he is pending the criminal case, and on a no contact order, the letter is proof that he will need in court. I should have taken it when he showed me and not let him open it”””

To have any validity in court the letter should have remained sealed in the envelope; otherwise she can say anything she wants about the letter. Now all you have for court purposes is an envelope.

“””but he would have seen it in court, so I didn't know how to handle it.”””

I can understand that. Next time you’re faced with something like that, the bast way to handle it may be to seek advice before acting.

“””I am NOT happy about the hiding it in the bathroom and keeping it in a zip lock baggie.”””

DUH!!!!

“””What do I say/do about this though?”””

In my opinion you can handle it a couple different ways:

1. Shred it and place it back in the baggie with a dead fish. But since it may be used as evidence that probably isn’t the best scenario.

2. Talk with your husband. Let him know that that is unacceptable behavior that has once again hurt you. Have him retrieve it for you and you turn it along with the envelope over to his atty.

“””I don't want to allow these things, but I also don't want to have him see me as a pushy controlling person so early in the withdrawal.”””

BOUNDARIES. BOUNDARIES. BOUNDARIES. I’m going to say it point blank, your husband is going to try to manipulate you and make you feel like you are pushy and controlling. Everybody in their right mind knows that keeping a love letter from OW is wrong, further more hiding it in a baggie is pretty sick. That is not right don’t stand for it…PERIOD.

“””Also, the phone thing does bother me. I actually just changed the password on the answering machine so he doesn't know it. Will this upset him? Probably.”””

GOOD.

“””The telephone is in his name, as is the power. When he talked to the landlord he told her that he was disconnecting them and the OW could turn them on in her name if she wanted. The landlord asked him to please leave them on until she was able to talk to the OW about her desire to stay and her ability to pay the rent. Well that was Friday. WH called the landlord again Sunday and she hadn't heard from OW, but didn't want him to 'take any drastic steps yet'.”””

OK, so what you are saying is that the OW can skip out and leave your husband paying the bills, not only that she can continue to rack up more bills for him to pay. Are you OK with that? If not, express to him that it not a good idea to have that liability out there and give him a deadline of Wednesday at 5:00pm to “Get ‘Er Done”. By not having already done this, he is choosing to risk money that could be used to feed your children, for the OW’s phone and power.

Danielle, you have a lot of great words and thoughts, but they have to be turned into actions.

Okay, I feel like screaming. This is hard. (but then who said it was going to be easy?)

He just called. He is working on his car, and we had PLANNED to take a road trip to VA on Thursday and tow back his Camaro on Friday (which he left in VA, broken).

I confronted him about the telephone. He wasn't upset about the password, like I thought he would be.

I told him that I didn't feel OK with him having the telephone still on, and asked him why he felt the need to leave it hooked up. I told him that the bill is racking up in his name, and it is another way to contact the OW, which he agreed to shut off. He said 'Danielle, I told you that I needed to wait for the landlord. You don't seem to care about what I think right now though. I am not going to discuss this with you' I told him that I did care what he thought, but that he had been trying to shut it off on Saturday which was a weekend so he couldn't, and now he didn't want to, so I was a bit confused. He said 'listen I don't want to be mean'. I said well in 'not being mean' to the OW you are disrespecting me. He said that the bill is 39.99 and month, and the new month had started, so what did it matter, he wasn't going to call the OW anyhow, and I could check the record if I wanted to. He said 'I will do it, but I am not going to do it RIGHT NOW like you want, I am going to wait for the landlord. You keep going on and on about it, and I am sick of hearing about it.’

Then we started talking about our 'trip'. Well now he wants to go alone. He said he needs time alone, on the open road. I told him that 1/2 the reason we had planned to go now and get his car was so we could be together away from all of this and talk. He said he thought about it last night and wants to 'be alone'. He said we were arguing and he didn't want to argue in the car so he wanted to go without me. He could tell I was upset and he said 'I am just stressed out right now'

Then he said he was going to work on his car. I said ok, and he said 'thank you for respecting that'

I said 'I love you' His response 'I know'

Bye...

How do I make boundaries without pissing him off?
Danielle

Go ahead... try and make sense of this ... Here's a hint ... if healthy boundaries piss him off ... what message does this send to YOU???

Pep.

Dani ... if he gets unreasonably pissed off ... what bad thing happends to you?

Pep

“””He said that the bill is 39.99 and month, and the new month had started, so what did it matter, he wasn't going to call the OW anyhow, and I could check the record if I wanted to.”””

Of course, you can check the record. Does the record show all incoming calls? Does the record show in-coming calls from a calling card? I don’t think so. The only thing I can say is that you need to express to him how important it is to take these steps in order for you to begin to regain trust in his actions.

“””Then we started talking about our 'trip'. Well now he wants to go alone.”””

Is this where the OW lives? After getting a scented letter, which he meticulously saved, he wants to go alone so he can have some “time alone on the open road”. May I be the first to stand up and say BULLSH*&.

Danigirl:

Your choice, YOUR LIFE. Remember the concept of 100% responsibility.............not much else needs to be said, it has already been said a million times over.

With best wishes,

LM

The OW lives here in Maine. We all used to live in VA. He left his camaro down there when he moved up here with the OW. He wouldn't see her in VA.....

I am composing a letter to him that I would like some advice on...
Danielle

Dear WH,

I have enjoyed spending time with you over the past few days, and I look forward to spending a lot more time with you in the future. I care deeply about you and am happy to start working on our marriage, family and future together.
At the same time I still have to protect myself and our children. I know what you are going through is hard, and I respect that. I am proud of the steps that you have already taken to better yourself, and end the cycle of dishonesty and hurt. In order to keep us on the path to recovery and happiness, and to protect myself and help you, I need to stick to my word. This includes my promises to you, as well as boundaries. I promised to be there for you, and to listen when your ready to talk, I promised to care for you, and love you. I promised to also love and care for myself and our children. I promised to myself to protect my heart, and uphold my boundaries for recovery.
We have talked about openness…and honestly. We have talked about no contact. We have talked about trust, and we have talked about rebuilding our marriage.

I have boundaries, that I have to uphold. They are not meant to hurt you, but to ensure the protection of our family.

1. No contact, period. This is not only to ensure your safety, the possibility of our marital recovery but to also keep your bail terms.
2. Shut off the telephone and power and make sure the landlord has a written statement that you are off of the lease. You wanting to leave on the telephone so that Marcia can run up the bill, and make calls to plan a criminal case against you is disturbing. Also, the liability financially is not something that our family can endure.
3. Openness and Honestly…at all times. Open communication, etc. We both have a right to have our feelings heard without being disrespected about them.
4. Fight your court cases with your family and your future in mind. Fight tough, and air out the truth. ‘Helping’ Marcia is not an option or the priority.
5. Counseling and antidepressants if necessary.

This is a small thing to ask for a big outcome.


Opinions?

OK Dani, I will bite here.

In all honesty you have been down this road a hundred and one times already. So let me ASK YOU, besides yet another letter (that in the past you have not been able to back up with actions), what do you expect will be different this time?

More importantly, WHAT WILL YOU DO TO ENFORCE YOUR BOUNDARIES OF "NC PERIOD"?

When you find out that he has talked to her on the cell phone (there is no doubt that this is about to happen again, if it has not already happeend), WHAT WILL BE YOUR PLAN THEN? Another letter? What? Your letters lose any semblance of credibility each time you move the boundaries to "give him another chance".

This is just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Just trying to keep it real, so that and your children don't end up back in the fog also. This is smelling like a rerun of the great Bill Murray and Andie Mcdowell movie.

Goodluck,

LM

Well honestly Lemonman....WH has never been seriously interested in recovery. The two times he did 'come home' it was for less then 48 hours, and it was really fake feeling. He is honestly (I know it doesn't seem like it) showing signs that he wants to end the affair and begin recovery, but is in withdrawal.

Basically, to put it bluntly, if he goes back to the OW, after all this, I will serve divorce papers the following day. I am not sure of the consequences for the other boundaries, but if he resumes a relationship with the OW, I am done, period.

Danielle

Dani,

Are you going to give him space to work out his issues on his own? You can't do it for him. He's made some rather minor moves towards recovery, most of which could just mean that he's getting sick of OW. They do not mean that he's ready to really do the things you need to rebuild the marriage. You're already giving him advice on shutting off utilities, planning a trip with him to pick up his car, spending time with him, and just generally letting yourself be sucked into his problems and trying to fix them. Your level of involvement in his chaos is out of proportion to his efforts in regards to you and the children. Step back. If he really has ANY intention of becoming a good husband and father again, he's going to have to take these steps on his own, not because you push and pull him. He needs to be accountable for his own responsiblities.

If you're already taking care of him now, what reason does he have to make any improvements? And if he doesn't have to pick up after his own mess by himself, he won't be very committed to make sure he doesn't make more in the future.

Tough love, Dani!

Dobie

Dobie:

You are stone cold correct in your post. This has been the crux of Dani's issues. She has never been able to let go of the co-dependance on her WH and let him "fix this". Even now, 5 days into recovery she goes back to "familiar enabling" behaviors and guess what so does he....First he wanted to be the man he should be, and now he is keeping cell phone accounts alive, and wanting to be "alone on the road" to find himself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It is all very sad, because anyone not involved in this dysfunctional chaos watches in horror as this recurring car crash happens in slow motion over and over and over again.

LM

Okay, so maybe I am wrong. I am not trying to be stupid, or ask for more pain.

Since it is so obvious to everyone not involved...
What would you suggest I do?

Danielle

Dani, no one is saying you are stupid. Just step back a little and let your WH do what he needs to do to be a man and begin the recovery process. I understand, I have to same tendancy to take over and "fix" things myself. Probably a good reason I am getting a D.