HA! I cannot keep you straight! I cannot keep anybody straight other than myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

These type "explanations" are intriguing to me - not being a follower of any organized religion. As such, I'm an equal opportunity critic and questioner. Any true believer should have no qualms about questions someone like me raises. There's plenty I won't raise, e.g., the whole Adam and Eve thingy, because it's no use. Suffice to say I don't buy any of it. But I will challenge you on your logic even if your "fact" has gone unchallenged.

Regarding staying "straight", a question for you to ponder: how is it a "heathen" like myself can pretty much have all the comparable virtues without being a believer or a follower? How is that possible?

I'll have a followup question.

WAT

LM, MM - "rocket surgery" Ain't that great??

Literally, it's a quote from my brother, a man possessing a contagious sense of humor.

It's his intentionally mangled metaphor mixing "rocket science" and "brain surgery." You know, "this ain't brain surgery."

His first attempt didn't get the laughs - "this ain't brain science." So he went with the only remaining combination.

WAT

Thanks WAT...and you do keep me straight by keeping me intellectually honest. So many people believe (even some fellow Christians) that you have to leave your intellect at the door to have faith. Not true.

As everyone has heard from me before, I also do not follow an organized religion. Nor a set of principles, or a book of rules. I follow a living person, with whom I have a relationship. Thus, in my daily walk with Him, I learn more about Him. Either thru prayer, or reading about Him (Bible, historical documents and writings, etc) or even from fellow believers as they tell me about their interactions with Him.

On your last question here, I assume you are asking why it is that you can do good things, you can follow many/most/all of these principles, and do so without being a believer. If I am wrong please clarify.

But if that is what you ask, I can tell you this. Look, there is truth in this world. 2+2=4. That is truth. Anyone intellectually can recognize that. But not everyone can. Someone who is handicapped, or an infant, or someone that never went to school...they may not see that.

On many of these matters I discuss here, they are "no-duh" statements. Why? Because, as Just Learning always says...the truth has a way of making it to the top (okay JL...I paraphrased a little there...editorial license!!).

So, how can you get these things and still not be a believer. Because your mind is at least partly open to the truth. Which is another reason I love our discussions. And which is a reason that I still have hope (and I pray) that you will find the Truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

I like it, I may steal that term for my vocabulary and future postings.

LM

Mortarman ... have you read Wild At Heart by John Eldredge?

Pep

Stormy,

Didnt mean to ignore you. I hope this series will help. I have only posted the first of the six parts. On your financial situation, I would continue to pray. Up until three years ago, my wife and I lived off just my income and she stayed home for the first 9 years of our marriage. She now has a great nursing career...and the extra money is gravy (actually, she makes as much as I do now!!).

In order to live on the one income, it is hard. Sacrifices have to be made. But, if you sit down and add in all of the costs (babysitting, extra gas for commuting, meals away from home, taxes, etc), you'll findthat many times, you arent bringing in what you think you are. And once you realize what you are ACTUALLY making...is it worth the time away from your kids...where someone else will be reaising them. That is why my wife and I lived pretty humbly over those 9 years. Because we wanted to raise our kids...not the gals down at the daycare. And make no mistake, the people that spend the most time with your children have the greatest influence over what they learn. They want their Mom and Dad to teach them. But if they arent there, then they will accept what the person present tells them and teaches them.

So, look at that. Pray!! God will lead you.

And in your marriage, you can make this work if the two of you are willing to follow God's guidance in your roles in this marriage.

I found a note my wife had made for herself for when we went to the custody hearing when we were going thru our divorce proceedings (we didnt divorce...those hearings ended up waking my wife up!!). She wrote to herself "Is marriage a commitment, or is it love?"

Well, God says it is first and foremost a commitment. Shoot, God doesnt even command the wife to love her husband...just to respect and reverence him. Love isnt even required. Commitment is! Sure, we would all want that relationship where the butterflys never stop. But that isnt realistic. They come and go. What cannot come and go is commitment.

Commitment to God, and to your role in your marriage...no matter what your spouse does with their role.

Hope that helped.

In His arms.

Pep...yes I have. I referenced it above. That is a Biblical perspective on what I was talking about here...what a man needs. A man needs his father...the man who is his father.

I am my oldest son's Dad. I am the BIGGEST influence in his life in how to grow up to be a man. But, he just recently found out (he is almost 13) that he has a bio dad. Up until now, he had no idea that I wasnt his bio dad. He was treated the same way as his two siblings that my wife and I conceived together.

But as Wild at Heart says, there will be some small part that even I cannot provide him. That is why one day, when my oldest seeks out his bio dad, I will not feel slighted or offended. First off, because I will always be Dad!! I am The Man!! I raised him, I taught him, I fed him. I was there for him...and always will be. But still, there are things about him I cant provide answers for. From some of his features that are like his bio dad, to a whole family tree he knows nothing about. He has at least one half-sister that I know of. Biologically, that sister is as close as the two he considers his brother and sister in our house.

Some day, he will want answers. Answers only his father can provide. Answers of "Who am I?" Where did I come from? What am I made of? Are there others like me? And so on.

A great book, Pep.

In His arms.

Partly?

Now, that's truly insulting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'll counter than my mind is TOTALLY open to the "truth" in that I do not profess to understand it all - thus willing to consider more - and further, I am quite content NOT needing an explanation for everything > the role religion plays for many - as an explanation for things they don't understand but need an answer to. In short, I'm willing to consider and accept new explanations for things and do without full explanations for many things.

Genesis of the universe? I don't know. I'm comfortable not knowing. I'm open to more "truth" about this because I don't fully accept the so far available "truths." I'm more open than someone who believes the Biblical account because some better explanation may come along that I will not necessarily discount right off the bat because I have no bias about it. But I'm pretty sure the earth wasn't created in six days. It just doesn't make sense that it was.

How long did it take Christianity to be open to the "truth" that the earth is not the center of the universe? Galileo was open to the truth when he peered through his telescope and observed that Jupiter had moons (among other things). From that he eventually deduced that - get this! - the sun does NOT orbit the earth, it's the other way 'round. The church was so NOT open to this "truth" that, well, you know what happened......

The truth does seem to have a way of making it to the top. Patience, my son.

WAT

Mortarman ... ignore WAT <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> and continue where you were going.... I want to hear what you have to say ... keep going with the steps ...

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As you know, the PARTLY was a joke!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I too look to find the truth. You made a statement above that Christians will discount things because science says so because of the Bible. Well, I guess some do. But not Christians that are seeking the truth. Just like there are close-minded atheists, there are closed minded Christians.

Sure, there were closed minded Christians that wouldnt believe the Earth was round. And?? The Bible never said the Earth was round. There were many Christians that embraced what Galileo found. As you said above, there is so much we dont know or understand. And we must keep our minds open to those things that come up to discern the truth.

My whole point to what I was saying there is that first off, science has never refuted one part of the Bible. not one account, not one reference. As a matter of fact, most of the historical evidence i nthe Bible has been corroborated back to just before the Great Flood. So far, the Bible is batting 1000!

On your inability to believe in a six day account of Creation, I think that stems in your disbelief that there is a God. You see, by definition, in order to have Creation, there must be God. And God has been defined as omnipotent. So, for arguments sake...if there was an omnipotent being in the Universe...why would it be impossible for that Being to create a Universe in 6 days? Shoot, if He is omnipotent, He could create it in 6 seconds!! So, I think your disbelief isnt so much in the 6 day Creation, as it is in the existence of the Creator.

Yes, the truth does rise to the top. Which is why scientists are now moving away from a strictly random creation of the universe, to an "Intelligent Design" theory. It is because the more truth we find, the more we understand our world, the more we see the fingerprints of God all over it.

In His arms.

Pep,

I cant believe you said to ignore WAT. Who could EVER do that?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But I am getting back to this. What I will do is finish putting all of it in a Word file and then cut and paste it all at once, probably tomorrow, so it is all in one place. That way, it is all together and people dont have to search all over the place for the 6 parts.

WAT knows I adore him ... and he knows I am capable of ignoring him ... I have teenagers, which gives me practice ! (WAT's gonna email me sompin after that ~LOL~

Mortar, I loved Wild At Heart ... I bought it as a gift for my husband, and then we both ended up reading and enjoying it.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey, can I jump in here and also say I wasn't going 2 get involved in one of these kinds of discussions?

"So, how can you get these things and still not be a believer. Because your mind is at least partly open to the truth. Which is another reason I love our discussions. And which is a reason that I still have hope (and I pray) that you will find the Truth."

I know what you mean here, but I think of it this way. It isn't that my mind (speaking of mine, not WAT's, that is) is partially open 2 some truth that is sourced in this biblical God or Jesus guy. It's that all our minds, believers and "non-believers" are partially open 2 the truth that's bigger than all of us collectively, and all of the many, many authors of the Bible - including those books selectively included and/or omitted by various religious leaders and Roman emperors over the past many thousands of years, and all of the leaders of all the other organized (and disorganized) religions around this small speck of mostly silicate rock and iron in this insignificant arm of this insignificant (though large, perhaps) barred spiral galaxy (one of billions of galaxies in the known universe - which is only about 13 billion years old) in the Local Group.

I believe in moderation in all things - including that Jesusy stuff. But I succeed (so far) at being a H because of the truths that I know and believe in. You can see some of them, 2, Mortarman. For that, I send out gratefulness in four directions.

-ol' 2long <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

2Long...as always, I do agree with you on many levels. And I do respect your point-of-view. It is always very thought out.

It is why I also hold out hope for you one day meeting Jesus. Many of your posts, I can see you so close to seeing Him, it is scary. I pray always for that break thru. And as you know of me and us being friends for these few years, it is because I truly do want only but the greatest good for you!!

In His arms.

MM:

I appreciate the thought. I, 2, look forward 2 the day when you can see the Even Bigger Pic2re! Bring your friend along! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Yep, I did read it Mortarman. I really like it as well.

And I know that you are too kind and too gentlemanly to try and force your beliefs on another, and that you are trying to help others have a great marriage.

It's just that my ears close when I read that certain groups are excluded, and that this is the ONLY truth. It's just way too narrow for me to grab a hold of.

Who knows maybe I am not truly a Christian, although my love of God is big. And my love of Jesus.

I just wish that when trying to teach such an important concept as agape love, the points which keep me from following are omitted, such as the one that "homesexual parents won't work".

LOL, how's that for subjective Christianity.

Anyway, I'll stop posting on the points which bother me, since it really isn't helping you get your point across to those who would greatly benefit from them.

Heck, I'm not even married. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Where'd you get that notion? I just don't believe in YOUR God - assuming I understand what your God is. My God - if it exists, I haven't consistently decided - is not omnipotent. Otherwise, my son would still be alive and the Dec. 26 tsunami would not have occured, or on and on.


No real scientist in his right mind buys that "creationism in a cheap tuxedo." Pure politics and extreme right wing maneuvering. Another example of "belief" over truth. What's the explanation for the vast amount of evolutionary evidence - a world wide divine ruse to test your faith?


What? Are you serious? Where do you want to start? The creation? The great flood? The immaculate conception?

Where'd all the water go? There are FAR too many creatures on this rock to get two of each on one boat - not to mention the impossibility of procreating whole new herds from such a depressed gene pool.

OK, this need not degenerate into a biblical debate and I will not participate in such a debate on this forum that's supposed to be about marriage building. Your premise to discuss male and female roles in marriage according to the "Biblical perspective" is fair game - to a point.

WAT

I missed the "intelligent design" construct (not even a hypothesis, and certainly not a theory).

And since I'm a scientist - a geologist - I must comment. I don't buy the idea. It really is nothing more than a subversive attempt 2 get creationism in textbooks by the "tuxedo" route, as WAT suggested, after the overt subversiveness failed. It's not scientific at all.

The universe may be a product of intelligent design, it may not be. Speculations by scientists who are also religious (or not) that God may be behind evolution (a reasonable notion on the face of it - after all, it's a lot more "creative" and beautiful than creationism) are just that - speculation. The next step would be 2 propose a hypothesis 2 explain, in detail, how that works, that can then be tested, and verified or falsified. Of course, one would have 2 produce concrete evidence of the designer, or better yet, let her or him speak for themselves in a peer-reviewed journal publication. I doubt such a hypothesis could be formulated. But even if one could, it must be rigorously tested before it can become a theory 2 explain the fact of evolution. Only then could it join the ranks of the likes of Darwin and Gould and their Origin of Species and Punctuated Equillibrium theories.

I guess I still just don't understand all the fuss. I've never had a problem with reconciling religious thought and the scientific method, anymore than the major world religions do. Apples and oranges (both yummy, perhaps).

Still, I'd be willing 2 put "intelligent design" in the textbooks if we could put the Origin of Species in the Bible (right before the first chapter of Genesis, perhaps?). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Deal? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good thing I don't get 2 decide, huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Mortarman,

This is a very thought-provoking thread. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it, particularly the portion that addresses the wife's role in a marriage.

Froz

This is what happened in my M. MM, I became a believer 6 years ago. As I have grown in my faith, trust and knowledge of the Lord this imbalance in my M has become clearer and clearer. I do wish my H was a stronger man and desired to be a leader in our home.

I look forward to reading more.