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So, using WAT’s idea of quoting “out of context” as invalidating anything or proving that Creationists “evilily distorting” the “truth,” let’s quote the above offering by Mayr: Wait just one dern minute, FH. First of all, quoting out of context is not my idea of invalidating anything other than the integrity of the "quoter." I did NOT cite the quote mining tactic as invalidating the creationists' view point. That's absurd. Second, I did not say anywhere that creationists were “evilily distorting” the “truth.” (I would not have misspelled "evilly.") You putting that in quotes seems intentionally deceptive. What I did say was that the cited quotations ".....have been grossly and deceptively misrepresented. And that’s an understatement. These quotes have been taken WAY out of context and in most cases have been artfully “re-contexted” to portray an opposite view point in an attempt to disprove or cast doubt on issues involving evolution." Sure, I could have said, "evilly distorting", but I didn't. Please be careful with your quotes. I tried to be gracious to you and give you the benefit of the doubt that you were an unwitting participant in spreading the deception. I even offered an example that creationists were not the only ones out there using this low life tactic. Maybe I was wrong. Some humility on your part would go a long way to boost claims of your objectivity. Please try making this statement, "I agree, it is wrong, deceptive, and even hypocritical for creationists - all the while espousing Christian morals - to intentionally misrepresent the words of others in efforts to further their point of view. Not only is it worng, but using "untruths" to further "truth" should not be necessary." WAT
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Please try making this statement, "I agree, it is wrong, deceptive, and even hypocritical for creationists - all the while espousing Christian morals - to intentionally misrepresent the words of others in efforts to further their point of view. Not only is it worng, but using "untruths" to further "truth" should not be necessary." I agree. Now you try this one on for size for yourself: "Please try making this statement, "I agree, it is wrong, deceptive, and even hypocritical for evolutionists - all the while espousing ever changing human morals - to intentionally misrepresent the words of others in efforts to further their point of view. Not only is it wrong, but using "untruths" to further "truth" should not be necessary. Passing off evolutionary hypothesis and theory as "fact" is both deceptive and scientifically immoral." [color:"green"]"(I would not have misspelled "evilly.") You putting that in quotes seems intentionally deceptive. What I did say was that the cited quotations ".....have been grossly and deceptively misrepresented. And that’s an understatement. These quotes have been taken WAY out of context and in most cases have been artfully “re-contexted” to portray an opposite view point in an attempt to disprove or cast doubt on issues involving evolution." " [/color] Okay, so I missspelled a word, sue me. btw, "wrong" is spelled w-r-o-n-g if we're going to start nitpicking spelling more than the idea being presented. Now, care to comment on the "punctuated evolution" garbage that Gould and Eldredge want to support as "fact?" Can we call it a "hypothesis?" Of course. We can "hypothesize" just about anything we want to, but that does NOT make our fantasy into reality. Care to comment on WHY you think Jesus Christ is NOT who He said He was? Care to comment on WHY you think Creation is NOT how things got here and why that only leaves evolution from inorganic to organic, in defiance of the 1st and 2nd (established scientifically) Laws of Theromdynamics? The physical universe and all life that we know of EXISTS. It is a fact. What is NOT known is "how it all got here." That is where the "Models of Origins" comes in. IF you want to "Eliminate" the creative act of God, by design and by will of a living and intelligent Creator, they you MUST play by your own rules. So starting with the Laws of Thermodynamics, please give us proof that evolution has the "right" to violate those laws and how it does so according to acceptable scientific proof that fits the "scientific method" requirement or reproducability and verifiability. I tried to be gracious to you and give you the benefit of the doubt that you were an unwitting participant in spreading the deception. I even offered an example that creationists were not the only ones out there using this low life tactic.
Maybe I was wrong. Some humility on your part would go a long way to boost claims of your objectivity. Ditto back at 'cha. In all humbleness and humility I await your statements and proofs that "boost claims of your objectivity."
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FH:
"Devoid of faith in a Creator and assigning belief in God and Jesus Christ to the realm of "junk science," there is a "necessity" to attempt to explain things in naturalistic "evolutionary" terms simply because the "scientist" making the assertion has NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE."
Malarkey.n. Slang Exaggerated or foolish talk, usually intended to deceive: “snookered by a lot of malarkey” (New Republic).
"This is why I have said from the start that the issue is not really whether evolution or creation is the "real answer" to how we got here. The real issue is "who is Jesus Christ?" Once again, IF Christ is who He said He was, then you can TRUST and BELIEVE what He has said is TRUTH. If He is not, then it's irrelevant what He said."
The "real issue" may indeed be who JC is and/or who/what he said he is. What is "real issue" or what makes one answer (2 any particular question) any more "real" than any other?
Stated for the umpteenth time, science is a tool. It's a tool that is useful for understanding our world and the universe around us. It isn't FOR asking who/what Jesus is/was.
"I agree. Now you try this one on for size for yourself:"
I won't speak for elspeth, but...
"Please try making this statement, "I agree, it is wrong, deceptive, and even hypocritical for evolutionists - all the while espousing ever changing human morals -"
morals have nothing 2 do with the scientific method.
"to intentionally misrepresent the words of others in efforts to further their point of view."
I don't believe they do. What tweaks the creationists gain knobs, IMHO, is that scientists like Gould didn't play by their sensationalist rules. "Not only is it wrong, but using "untruths" to further "truth" should not be necessary."
This is true. "Passing off evolutionary hypothesis and theory as "fact" is both deceptive and scientifically immoral."
I don't know what "scientific morality" is. Never heard of it. Evolution is a fact, not a theory. Am I scientifically immoral?
I'm not even humanistically immoral. In TRUTH, I'm a very moral human.
-ol' 2long
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I agree. Now you try this one on for size for yourself:
"Please try making this statement, "I agree, it is wrong, deceptive, and even hypocritical for evolutionists - all the while espousing ever changing human morals - to intentionally misrepresent the words of others in efforts to further their point of view. Not only is it wrong, but using "untruths" to further "truth" should not be necessary. Passing off evolutionary hypothesis and theory as "fact" is both deceptive and scientifically immoral." I can't quite sign up for all of that. I'm not aware of the "ever changing human morals" thing and I don't see what morals has to do with science - other than misrepresentation of information. I don't know of any examples of "evolutionists'" intentional misrepresentation of others' words, although I can believe this has occurred. As for "Passing off evolutionary hypothesis and theory as "fact"....", well, a hypothesis as used in the scientific context is never a fact - other than a factual question or statement of a potential answer that is yet to be confirmed. And the whole semantical argument over "theory" and "fact" with reference to evolution is, I believe, part of the problem here: these terms are thrown around with different meanings to different people. We've hashed it over ad nauseum and seeking agreement on their meanings seems futile. When you use "theory" you use it with a common usage meaning that relates to more or less a guess - a real "hypothesis." "Theory" as used in scientific process jargon is more of a system of assumptions, accepted principles, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of a specified set of phenomena, especially when that phenomena cannot be re-created. In the scientific community, evolution easily passes the test of being a "theory." It explains the observed phenomena. But it's much more than hypothesis. Natural selection and survival of the fittest are the hypotheses involved that explain the outcome. "Fact"? Depends on what your standard for "fact" is? 100% certainty? Nope. Nothing is. But you seem to be requiring this standard. Absolutely, there does not yet exist a perfect fossil lineage showing all the "missing links" and until there is, your standard will not be met. And no one has declared that all the pieces of the puzzle have been identified - this is precisely why the scientists are still digging. A real world example: The World Trade Center buildings hit by the planes on 9/11 collapsed. Why? Was it due to structual weakening from the energy of impact? - or was it the ensuing fire that weakened the structure? Hypothesis - "Since the buildings did not immediately collapse, the energy of the impact alone was insufficient to cause collapse and other mechanism(s) were needed to further weaken the structure. Weakening of the internal steel support structures due to fire is suspected." During the investigation that followed, the effects of fire were confirmed by observation of the steel recovered from the wreckage and by lab testing of the material. All fingers point to fire. Is this 100% certain? No. We don't want to try to re-create this is some huge experiment - equivalent to we can't re-create it. Is it "fact"? As close as we'll ever get. So, I do not agree that describing evolution as "deceptive and scientifically immoral" is correct. It's clear to me that deception lies squarely in the lap of young earth creationists. Again, science is not about morals - that's the exclusive domain of faith and personal belief systems. Now, care to comment on the "punctuated evolution" garbage that Gould and Eldredge want to support as "fact?" Can we call it a "hypothesis?" Of course. We can "hypothesize" just about anything we want to, but that does NOT make our fantasy into reality. I don't know enough about "punctuated evolution" to comment on it. I do not know whether Gould and Eldredge call that "fact" or not, but if they do, I doubt they use your 100% certainty standard. Calling it hypothesis is probably closer to the truth. Yes, we CAN hypothesize just about anything we want and that DOES NOT make any such hypothesis reality. Hypothesis is speculation. Good scientific hypotheses are founded on reasoned speculation, not random musings. Although I haven't seen one written, somebody may be able to develop a scientific hypothesis for creation. I cannot. Care to comment on WHY you think Jesus Christ is NOT who He said He was? What's the point of this? I still fail to understand what this has to do with any debate regarding evolution other than to represent the questions you would face on the meaning of your faith if evolution is the answer. My beliefs or speculation are irrelevant to this discussion. Care to comment on WHY you think Creation is NOT how things got here and why that only leaves evolution from inorganic to organic, in defiance of the 1st and 2nd (established scientifically) Laws of Theromdynamics? Sure I'll take a stab at this one. I believe the "creation" account that requires an earth only a few thousand years old and other literal biblical interpretations including kangaroos hopping from and to Australia from the Mediterranean region is ludicrous on it's face. There is no evidence of this other than a book. I'll go with the overwhelming scientific evidence that refutes this story. If that story is true, then what is your God's purpose of the fossil record? An elaborate ruse to test your faith? That said, I can wonder about a creator providing an initial push that got the universe going. But I believe that any belief system that puts humans at some universal pinnacle based on divine design or guidance is the height of human conceit. I don't know of any scientist who supports the inorganic to organic explanation. As I said before, if anybody thinks they can successfully refute the laws of thermodynamics, then a perpetual motion machine is next and we can all drive SUVs without guilt. It stands to reason that anyone who can do this will re-write all the science books and likely sweep the Nobel prizes. IF you want to "Eliminate" the creative act of God, by design and by will of a living and intelligent Creator, they you MUST play by your own rules. So starting with the Laws of Thermodynamics, please give us proof that evolution has the "right" to violate those laws and how it does so according to acceptable scientific proof that fits the "scientific method" requirement or reproducability and verifiability. I can't do that because I do not think the thermodynamic laws are violated by evolution. WAT
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I can't do that because I do not think the thermodynamic laws are violated by evolution. Okay that is what you believe. Care to take stab at HOW and WHY the Laws do not apply to evolution? What's the point of this? I still fail to understand what this (Jesus Christ) has to do with any debate regarding evolution other than to represent the questions you would face on the meaning of your faith if evolution is the answer. My beliefs or speculation are irrelevant to this discussion. WAT, you are a very smart man and hiding behind a feigned lack of understanding is an interesting ploy. Creation, as an "answer" to Origins, is predictated upon the Scripture as God inspired the authors to reveal the truth. Hence, it is decidedly a theory that has it's origins in the Judeo/Christian faiths and is based upon accepting God as a being of Truth, incapable of lying to us. Without a Creator, there is nothing left but natural processes and the attempts of scientists to explain what is seen. That is precisely why evolutionists won't even consider Creation by a Creator. Without faith (sight, if you will), it is like a blind man trying to feel his way around an elephant and describe it. "Scientists" (or at least evolutionists) are quick to point out that they reject Creation BECAUSE it requires a faith in God. They reject the "notion" that there CAN be a Supreme Being who did create the universe and all that is in it according to His will, purpose, and design. They prefer the "option" that we are all just one big cosmic accident. There is nothing after death. "Live for today, because tomorrow you die and then...nothing. So, they are left with trying to make the observable fit into an unplanned, random, chaotic sort of evolution that DOES in fact, according to them, give rise to life, to "organic from inorganic," all by itself. It "makes sense" to them because the alternative is anathema to them. Then they try to hide behind the claim that they are "Scientists," like that somehow makes them "god" and bestows "truth" upon their musings. I don't know of any scientist who supports the inorganic to organic explanation Now you take the fundamental laws of Science, the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics, and try to fashion some way to "get around them" in order to keep the theory of evolution on "life support." The most prevalent "claim" along that line, and possibly the one you were referring to, is that earth is an "open system." It's a nice try, but it is insufficient. The same holds true for the "Punctuated Evolution" theory of Gould. The fossil record shows NO transitional forms, just the presence of distinct species. So Gould takes the "wild guess" approach that there is a rapid explosion of mutations that "jumps over" the required intervening steps and arrives all at once at a completely new "kind, and then the mutations take a millenia long hiatus and stop making new species." It makes for good fiction and is why Mayr and other evolutionists take it to task. So where DID all of this organic life come from originally? Even Gould is NOT saying that "Punctuated Evolution" works on inorganic materials. Even Gould begins with living organisms and then has them "evolve," like arriving at the final portrait of Mona Lisa without having to take the necessary intervening steps to "build the picture." No, you just take all the paints and let them "burst" into a final picture all at once....ala "why not have a complete jaw bone just 'appear' all at once?" Where did the original life come from? How did the original life survive and how did it arrive at "self-replication? Even Gould "begs the question" of where did life originate from and limits his theory to life already in existance. A fundamental tenet of Biology is that "Life begets life." Without a living Creator to "beget life in His image," the "scientists" are left with the exceedingly improbable, random chance, that life arose from non-life and then proceeded to self-replicate itself into a myriad of "kinds", all completely distinct from each other. But wait! The "trump card" for the evolutionists is still there in the fossil record! It's called "dinosaurs!" Yep, dinosaurs did exist...and were wiped out with every other land animal during the Flood. And yes, WAT, all the animals "spread out" from the final resting place of the Ark. They had plenty of time to meander whereever. Surely you've heard of the theory that the land masses were once connected? Even that is something that evolutionists theorize. But I'm still going to wait anxiously to see how you "undo" the 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics because they are a "death knell" to evolution and wishful thinking. Just as scientists see "insurmountable problems" with the Creation model because of the need for God, there is the insurmountable problem of the fundamental physical LAWS of Therodymanics for evolution.
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If you sincerely wish to discus scientific findings, I’d be happy to discus thermo with you, as I do have some background in it. (For some reason I doubt I’ll be taken up on my offer...)
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Okay dimps, if you want to discuss the Laws of Thermodynamics as they relate to evolution, have at it.
(I'm taking up your "offer" in case you were wondering)
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I'm not sure why I'm even trying to answer your challenges, but I'll try nonetheless. Okay that is what you believe. Care to take stab at HOW and WHY the Laws do not apply to evolution? I do believe the laws apply to all natural process. I did not say that they do not apply to evolutionary process. WAT, you are a very smart man and hiding behind a feigned lack of understanding is an interesting ploy. Creation, as an "answer" to Origins, is predictated upon the Scripture as God inspired the authors to reveal the truth. Hence, it is decidedly a theory that has it's origins in the Judeo/Christian faiths and is based upon accepting God as a being of Truth, incapable of lying to us. I'm not hiding behind anything nor making a "ploy." That said, your statement regarding creation seems to be an accurate account of creationists' views. I can have no argument with that. Without a Creator, there is nothing left but natural processes and the attempts of scientists to explain what is seen. That is precisely why evolutionists won't even consider Creation by a Creator. In that "evolutionists" in this context are implied to be evolutionary scientists, etc., I agree that creation is not considered by them because it is not science. "Scientists" (or at least evolutionists) are quick to point out that they reject Creation BECAUSE it requires a faith in God. They reject the "notion" that there CAN be a Supreme Being who did create the universe and all that is in it according to His will, purpose, and design. This one is a little tougher. I can't speak for all scientists nor evolutionists, but I believe creation is prominently rejected as a scientific explanation not because it requires a faith in God, but because it is not science. That said (again), many scientists do have a faith in God and do consider that creation may have a place in the "creation" of the universe - but very, very few - the "creation scientists" - sign up for your particular interpretation of creation as it applies to living things on Earth. I happen to believe that there COULD HAVE BEEN be a supreme being responsible for the initial starting of the universe. I'm not convinced either way because I doubt we small minded humans can yet conceive of the "beginning". They prefer the "option" that we are all just one big cosmic accident. There is nothing after death. "Live for today, because tomorrow you die and then...nothing. I personally am content being one big cosmic accident along with the rest of the universe. I don't expect anything after death, along with the cockroaches. Why should humans get special treatment? So, they are left with trying to make the observable fit into an unplanned, random, chaotic sort of evolution that DOES in fact, according to them, give rise to life, to "organic from inorganic," all by itself. It "makes sense" to them because the alternative is anathema to them. You keep throwing around "random" and "inorganic to organic". We've plowed this ground already. I also sense you believe there is some sort of evil plot by the scientific community to destroy your faith and evolution is the weapon. This is absurd. Then they try to hide behind the claim that they are "Scientists," like that somehow makes them "god" and bestows "truth" upon their musings. Scientific "truth" is an outcome of the scientific process - until a better explanation comes along. It should not be construed as moral truth or absolute truth or "truth" derived from faith. Apples and oranges. But wait! The "trump card" for the evolutionists is still there in the fossil record! It's called "dinosaurs!" Yep, dinosaurs did exist...and were wiped out with every other land animal during the Flood. And yes, WAT, all the animals "spread out" from the final resting place of the Ark. They had plenty of time to meander whereever. Surely you've heard of the theory that the land masses were once connected? Even that is something that evolutionists theorize. Yes, I believe the fossil record is the motherlode of evidence for evolution - along with information from currently living things. And yes, I am aware of the vast amount of evidence suggesting that the land masses were at one time joined and plate tectonics and all the geological evidence supports that conclusion. School kids gazing at a world map can see the "puzzle piece" characteristics of South America and Africa and how they likely fit together long ago. This is another good example of scientific hypothesis and theory. But to believe this all happened a few thousand years ago and included a flood that totally covered the earth and wiped out all the land creatures, in my view, is ludicrous. FWIW, I believe the Biblical "flood" was the catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea when the narrow strip of land separating the former "Black Lake" from the Med broke through. This is now the Strait of Bosporus. There's a lot of fresh water at the bottom of that "sea." I watched a really good program on Nova last evening about Galileo, his daughter, and his trials with the Catholic church in the early 1600s. You probably know the story - he was ex-communicated and jailed for daring to publish his "Dialogue" that soundly rebuked the geocentric view of the Church in favor of Copernicus' heliocentric explanation which requires that the earth and other planets orbit the sun. The Church was adamant that based on scripture, the Earth could not move, thus could not orbit anything - rather everything else orbited the earth. Finally, John Paul II "pardoned" Galileo in 1992 (I think that was the year although I don't know if "pardoned" is the right word). The Church alluded that science is not a threat to scripture. God's word is inerrant - it's man's interpretation of scripture that can be mistaken. WAT
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FH:
Do you do standup? You should.
"But wait! The "trump card" for the evolutionists is still there in the fossil record! It's called "dinosaurs!" Yep, dinosaurs did exist...and were wiped out with every other land animal during the Flood."
Even the liar Duane Gish had multiple floods, so the one the killed off the dinosaurs happened before Adam and Eve, so there were no people.
But *land animals?* What about mososaurs, plesiosaurs and ichthyosaurs? What about foraminifera?
"And yes, WAT, all the animals "spread out" from the final resting place of the Ark. They had plenty of time to meander whereever. Surely you've heard of the theory that the land masses were once connected? Even that is something that evolutionists theorize."
A whole BUTTLOAD of years before Gilgamesh's time! The last time the continents were connected (besides the connections that exist 2day) was at the beginning of the Mesozoic, when the Atlantic began opening up again (it had done this before). There weren't even dinosaurs on Earth then.
-ol' 2long
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FH:
" The fossil record shows NO transitional forms, just the presence of distinct species. "
Bull feathers. or maybe I should say "dinosaur feathers".
Define "distinct species", not that it matters. What matters is that you are wrong about there not being transitional forms.
Archaeopteryx is a transitional form. A bird with teeth and jaws instead of a beak, a bony long tail, and claws. Sinornithosaurus is a dinosaur with flight feathers on its front AND hind limbs. A transitional adaptation that didn't last or wasn't necessary for flight (or we could call birds "biplanes").
Australopithecus (both robustus an afarensis)
Homo erectus
And yes, the coelocanth, which was so successful on its own that it still survives today, even though descendants of Paleozoic coelocanth's transitioned into amphibians.
Horses hooves.
Lots more.
Definitely not "none."
-ol' 2long
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FH--Okay dimps, if you want to discuss the Laws of Thermodynamics as they relate to evolution, have at it. (I'm taking up your "offer" in case you were wondering)
Sounds good. Ok, here we go:
As evolution itself doesn’t maintain to contradict or be an exception to the laws of thermo (LoT), a good place to start this discussion may be to examine the creationist claim that evolution is incompatible with LoT. As you haven’t yet explicitly proposed a problem, I can only start with what I have read in creationist literature. If I am missing or misstating something, please let me know. I have broken the general claim that I am familiar with into three ‘subclaims’, as stated below:
Creationist claim: (a) “The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics prohibits evolution because evolution requires a decrease in entropy to occur, which is in violation of the 2nd Law.” (b) “Entropy is measure of the order in matter.” (c) “But, as life evolves, it becomes more ordered, and thus requires a decrease in entropy. Therefore, evolution is impossible according to LoT.”
I see that you have also mentioned a claim regarding the 1st LoT, but I’m not familiar with that claim, so tell me what it is and we can discus it later. Again, if I have misstated the claim above, or missed something important, tell me and we’ll modify the discussion appropriately.
Best to first discuss what 2nd LoT actually says (here I am not introducing 0th and 1st Laws, but I will touch on the 3rd Law later, as it is relevant to the claim above).
The 2LoT is defined by two statements referred to as the Kelvin-Plank and Clausius Statements. We can state these explicitly if you like, but conceptually, both statements essentially mean that one can never build a machine or process that is 100% (thermally) efficient. That is, the transference of one form of energy to another will always result in a loss of ‘useable’ energy; or, to drive even a theoretically ‘reversible’ cycle, some energy input is needed.
An obvious question might be: so what is entropy and how does it enter into 2LoT?
Entropy can be thought of as the amount of energy in something that is ‘not useable’. It is typically defined as the ‘loss’ of energy that occurs when a cycle of work is performed. Of course, energy is not really lost (as this would violate the 1st LoT, conservation of energy), but simply in a form that we cannot recover to do work for us.
Thus, entropy (I'll call it ".h.") is one measure of the thermal inefficiency of a process; the inefficiency required by the 2nd LoT. .h. in an object is a function of three primary things: mass, temperature, and arrangement of atoms in the object. Any substance if brought to absolute zero has zero .h. (according to 3rd LoT), while heating up objects as well as increasing their mass increases their .h.
The entropy of any object can be determined (as according to its mathematical definition: change in .h. is equal to the change in heat in an object divided by its average temperature) by placing the object in a calorimeter (a heavily insulated oven), and measuring how much heat is required to raise the object to some new temperature. If we then divide the heat absorbed by the average temperature, we have an exact measure of .h. for a given (average) temperature.
So how does this relate to ‘order’?
The arrangement of molecules in an object affects its ability to absorb heat; i.e. this affects our ability to extract ‘usable’ energy from the object. In general, as objects are heated up, their atoms become displaced and thus less ‘orderly’.
But note that the word ‘order’ in very specific here. What you and I perceive as order may have nothing whatsoever to do with what is ‘orderly’ in a thermodynamic sense. For example, imagine I have a stack of paper with a list of numbers from 0 to 1 million, all in consecutive order. I have another stack of paper with the same list of numbers, but in random order. We place both stacks into a calorimeter, heat them up, and measure their .h. What do you think we would find? Of course, both stacks would absorb exactly the same amount of heat over a given temperature range. In other words, they have exactly the same amount of .h., even though one stack is completely randomized and the other is precisely ‘ordered’.
After all of this intro, we can now investigate the creationist claim above.
The first problem with the creationist claim should be apparent by reading the last paragraph that I wrote. In particular, claims (b) & (c): “Entropy is measure of the order in matter” is true *only* in a thermodynamic sense; in other words, does the new arrangement alter the amount of heat needed to raise an objects temperature?
Thus, this is potentially a problem for evolution only if it can be demonstrated that (on a per-mass basis), that ‘earlier’ forms of life absorbed more heat to raise their temperature the same amount than later forms (and thus these earlier forms would have higher entropy than later forms of life). Sound strange? Sure. But this is in fact exactly how .h. is measured. Personally, I doubt we have found any meaningful differences in .h. in living things, but I haven’t seen any research on this rather odd topic so I can’t say for certain. This is unnecessary to investigate however, as there is a more important fundamental problem with the creationist claim.
[Note: one unfortunate occurrence that may have confused some creationists is that the information tech. (IT) field adopted the word ‘entropy’ to mean the measure of randomness if data (i.e. a unitless quantity). If you are familiar with statistics, this is similar in concept to coefficient of variation. The IT definition of entropy is completely different mathematically from .h. as defined by the LoT. But this should be obvious with the example that I gave above.]
Next is claim (a): "The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics prohibits evolution because... a decrease in entropy... is in violation of the 2nd Law.”
Think about this for a minute. When you cool down your freezer, the .h. of your frozen dinners decrease. Is the 2LoT violated? Of course not. But why, as doesn’t 2LoT indirectly say that entropy must increase? Well, in the big scheme of things, entropy does in fact increase. It requires electricity to run the compressor, electricity which was transformed from another form of energy. This transformation generated .h. which offset the decrease in .h. in your freezer, and thus the net .h. was actually increased.
So, if indeed evolution amounts to a decrease in .h. (which has not been established, as noted above), any decrease in entropy could certainly, and in fact must be, offset by at least an equal amount of entropy increase elsewhere. For example, as organisms eat food (or, for earlier forms of life, obtain radiant energy from the sun) and convert that food to usable energy, a large amount of entropy is generated. Thus, the total amount of entropy generated by living things, whether evolving or unchanging, is increasing.
In summary, the creationist claim(s) is based on fundamental misunderstandings of LoT. Which, of course, is why you never see these kinds of objections in legitimate scientific publications.
D.
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FH:
Do you do standup? You should.
"But wait! The "trump card" for the evolutionists is still there in the fossil record! It's called "dinosaurs!" Yep, dinosaurs did exist...and were wiped out with every other land animal during the Flood."
Even the liar Duane Gish had multiple floods, so the one the killed off the dinosaurs happened before Adam and Eve, so there were no people.
But *land animals?* What about mososaurs, plesiosaurs and ichthyosaurs? What about foraminifera?
"And yes, WAT, all the animals "spread out" from the final resting place of the Ark. They had plenty of time to meander whereever. Surely you've heard of the theory that the land masses were once connected? Even that is something that evolutionists theorize."
A whole BUTTLOAD of years before Gilgamesh's time! The last time the continents were connected (besides the connections that exist 2day) was at the beginning of the Mesozoic, when the Atlantic began opening up again (it had done this before). There weren't even dinosaurs on Earth then.
-ol' 2long Here's another example that can be found at http://www.vuletic.com/hume/science/evodef.html If we look to some of the less prominent transitions in life, we find equally astounding transitional forms. For instance, evolutionists have hypothesized that whales evolved from the cow-like mesonychids. This is a hypothesis which many creationists have ridiculed, and virtually all seem to have thought implausible. A prominent creationist once complained about the lack of transitional forms demonstrating this transition, thinking it a problem for evolution: if random evolution is true, there must have been a large number of transitional forms between the Mesonychid and the ancient whale. Where are they? It seems like quite a coincidence that of all the intermediate species that must have existed between the Mesonychid and whale, only species that are very similar to the end species have been found. (Behe 1994:61) However, no sooner had this creationist spoken than his smoking gun evaporated: By 1994, [Phillip] Gingerich and fellow paleontologists, including Hans Thweissen, had found not one, but three intermediate species [Pakicetus inachus, Ambulocetus natans, and Rodhocetus kasrani] linking land mammals to the archeocetes, the oldest swimming mammals. The midpoint of the series, a marvelous animal called ambulocetus natans (the "swimming whale who walks"), displayed exactly the combination of terrestrial and acquatic adaptations that critics of evolution had called impossible, even in principle. (Miller 1999:264)
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elspeth - a little chuckle now and then does a body good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Now...let's turn to the latest chuckle offered by the "evolutionists".... Fossil remains of the extinct mammal Pakicetus inachus, to give it its proper name, first came onto the agenda in 1983. P. D. Gingerich and his assistants, who found the fossil, had no hesitation in immediately claiming that it was a "primitive whale," even though they actually only found a skull.
Yet the fossil has absolutely no connection with the whale. Its skeleton turned out to be a four-footed structure, similar to that of common wolves. It was found in a region full of iron ore, and containing fossils of such terrestrial creatures as snails, tortoises, and crocodiles. In other words, it was part of a land stratum, not an aquatic one.
So, why was a quadrupedal land dweller announced to be a "primitive whale" and why is it still presented as such by evolutionist sources like National Geographic? The magazine gives the following reply:
What causes scientists to declare the creature a whale? Subtle clues in combination-the arrangement of cusps on the molar teeth, a folding in a bone of the middle ear, and the positioning of the ear bones within the skull-are absent in other land mammals but a signature of later Eocene whales.160
In other words, based on some details in its teeth and ear bones, National Geographic felt able to describe this quadrupedal, wolf-like land dweller as a "walking whale." These features, however, are not compelling evidence on which to base a link between Pakicetus and the whale:
- As National Geographic also indirectly stated while writing "subtle clues in combination," some of these features are actually found in terrestrial animals as well.
Distortions in the Reconstructions of National Geographic Paleontologists believe that Pakicetus was a quadrupedal mammal. The skeletal structure on the left, published in the Nature magazine clearly demonstrates this. Thus the reconstruction of Pakicetus (below left) by Carl Buell, which was based on that structure, is realistic. National Geographic, however, opted to use a picture of a "swimming" Pakicetus (below) in order to portray the animal as a "walking whale" and to impose that image on its readers. The inconsistencies in the picture, intended to make Pakicetus seem more "whale-like," are immediately obvious: The animal has been portrayed in a "swimming" position. Its hind legs are shown stretching out backwards, and an impression of "fins" has been given. Pakicetus reconstruction by National Geographic. National Geographic's Ambulocetus: The animal's rear legs are shown not with feet that would help it to walk, but as fins that would assist it to swim. However, Carroll, who examines the animal's leg bones, says that it possessed the ability to move powerfully on land. The real Ambulocetus : The legs are real legs, not "fins," and there are no imaginary webs between its toes such as National Geographic had added. (Picture from Carroll, Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution, p. 335)
- None of the features in question are any evidence of an evolutionary relationship. Even evolutionists admit that most of the theoretical relationships built on the basis of anatomical similarities between animals are completely untrustworthy. If the marsupial Tasmanian wolf and the common placental wolf had both been extinct for a long time, then there is no doubt that evolutionists would picture them in the same taxon and define them as very close relatives. However, we know that these two different animals, although strikingly similar in their anatomy, are very far from each other in the supposed evolutionary tree of life. (In fact their similarity indicates common design-not common descent.) Pakicetus, which evolutionists declare to be a "walking whale," was a unique species harboring different features in its body. In fact, Carroll, an authority on vertebrate paleontology, describes the Mesonychid family, of which Pakicetus should be a member, as "exhibiting an odd combination of characters."161
In his article "The Overselling of Whale Evolution," the creationist writer Ashby L. Camp reveals the total invalidity of the claim that the Mesonychid class, which should include land mammals such as Pakicetus, could have been the ancestors of Archaeocetea, or extinct whales, in these words:
The reason evolutionists are confident that mesonychids gave rise to archaeocetes, despite the inability to identify any species in the actual lineage, is that known mesonychids and archaeocetes have some similarities. These similarities, however, are not sufficient to make the case for ancestry, especially in light of the vast differences. The subjective nature of such comparisons is evident from the fact so many groups of mammals and even reptiles have been suggested as ancestral to whales.162
The second fossil creature after Pakicetus in the scenario on whale origins is Ambulocetus natans. It is actually a land creature that evolutionists have insisted on turning into a whale.
The name Ambulocetus natans comes from the Latin words "ambulare" (to walk), "cetus" (whale) and "natans" (swimming), and means "a walking and swimming whale." It is obvious the animal used to walk because it had four legs, like all other mammals, and even wide claws on its feet and paws on its hind legs. Apart from evolutionists' prejudice, however, there is absolutely no basis for the claim that it swam in water, or that it lived on land and in water (like an amphibian).
After Pakicetus and Ambulocetus, the evolutionist plan moves on to so-called sea mammals and sets out (extinct whale) species such as Procetus, Rodhocetus, and Archaeocetea. The animals in question were mammals that lived in the sea and which are now extinct. (We shall be touching on this matter later.) However, there are considerable anatomical differences between these and Pakicetus and Ambulocetus. When we look at the fossils, it is clear they are not "transitional forms" linking each other:
- The backbone of the quadrupedal mammal Ambulocetus ends at the pelvis, and powerful rear legs then extend from it. This is typical land-mammal anatomy. In whales, however, the backbone goes right down to the tail, and there is no pelvic bone at all. In fact, Basilosaurus, believed to have lived some 10 million years after Ambulocetus, possesses the latter anatomy. In other words, it is a typical whale. There is no transitional form between Ambulocetus, a typical land mammal, and Basilosaurus, a typical whale.
- Under the backbone of Basilosaurus and the sperm whale, there are small bones independent of it. National Geographic claims these to be vestigial legs. Yet that same magazine mentions that these bones actually had another function. In Basilosaurus, these bones functioned as copulary guides and in sperm whales "[act] as an anchor for the muscles of the genitalia."163 To describe these bones, which actually carry out important functions, as "vestigial organs" is nothing but Darwinistic prejudice.
In conclusion, despite evolutionist propaganda, the fact that there were no transitional forms between land and sea mammals and that they both emerged with their own particular features has not changed. There is no evolutionary link. Robert Carroll accepts this, albeit unwillingly and in evolutionist language: "It is not possible to identify a sequence of mesonychids leading directly to whales."164
Although he is an evolutionist, the famous Russian whale expert G. A. Mchedlidze, too, does not support the description of Pakicetus, Ambulocetus natans, and similar four-legged creatures as "possible ancestors of the whale," and describes them instead as a completely isolated group.165
160 Douglas H. Chadwick, "Evolution of Whales," National Geographic, November 2001, p. 68. 161 Robert L. Carroll, Patterns and Process of Vertebrate Evolution, Cambridge University Press, 1998, p.329. 162 Ashby L. Camp, "The Overselling of Whale Evolution," Creation Matters, a newsletter published by the Creation Research Society, May/June 1998. 163 Douglas H. Chadwick, "Evolution of Whales," National Geographic, November 2001, p. 73. 164 Robert L. Carroll, Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution, Cambridge University Press, 1998, p. 329. 165 G. A. Mchedlidze, General Features of the Paleobiological Evolution of Cetacea, trans. from Russian (Rotterdam: A. A. Balkema, 1986), p. 91. It's really too bad that the pictures (artists conceptualizaions) can't show up here. They do help to visualize the article and the "proposed" interpretations of evolutionists.
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(from DarwinismRefuted.com)
The Invalidity of Punctuated Equilibrium
In an earlier chapter, we examined how the fossil record clearly invalidates the hypotheses of the Darwinist theory. We saw that the different living groups in the fossil record emerged suddenly, and stayed fixed for millions of years without undergoing any changes. This great discovery of paleontology shows that living species exist with no evolutionary processes behind them. This fact was ignored for many years by paleontologists, who kept hoping that imaginary "intermediate forms" would one day be found. In the 1970s, some paleontologists accepted that this was an unfounded hope and that the "gaps" in the fossil record had to be accepted as a reality. However, because these paleontologists were unable to relinquish the theory of evolution, they tried to explain this reality by modifying the theory. And so was born the "punctuated equilibrium" model of evolution, which differs from neo-Darwinism in a number of respects.
This model began to be vigorously promoted at the start of the 1970s by the paleontologists Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University and Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History. They summarized the evidence presented by the fossil record as revealing two basic characteristics:
1. Stasis
2. Sudden appearance [color:"gold"]172[/color]
In order to explain these two facts within the theory of evolution, Gould and Eldredge proposed that living species came about not through a series of small changes, as Darwin had maintained, but by sudden, large ones.
This theory was actually a modified form of the "Hopeful Monster" theory put forward by the German paleontologist Otto Schindewolf in the 1930s. Schindewolf suggested that living things evolved not, as neo-Darwinism had proposed, gradually over time through small mutations, but suddenly through giant ones. When giving examples of his theory, Schindewolf claimed that the first bird in history had emerged from a reptile egg by a huge mutation-in other words, through a giant, coincidental change in genetic structure.[color:"gold"]173[/color] According to this theory, some land animals might have suddenly turned into giant whales through a comprehensive change that they underwent. This fantastic theory of Schindewolf's was taken up and defended by the Berkeley University geneticist Richard Goldschmidt. But the theory was so inconsistent that it was quickly abandoned.
The factor that obliged Gould and Eldredge to embrace this theory again was, as we have already established, that the fossil record is at odds with the Darwinistic notion of step by step evolution through minor changes. The fact of stasis and sudden emergence in the record was so empirically well supported that they had to resort to a more refined version of the "hopeful monster" theory again to explain the situation. Gould's famous article "Return of the Hopeful Monster" was a statement of this obligatory step back.[color:"gold"]174[/color]
Gould and Eldredge did not just repeat Schindewolf's fantastic theory, of course. In order to give the theory a "scientific" appearance, they tried to develop some kind of mechanism for these sudden evolutionary leaps. (The interesting term, "punctuated equilibrium," they chose for this theory is a sign of this struggle to give it a scientific veneer.) In the years that followed, Gould and Eldredge's theory was taken up and expanded by some other paleontologists. However, the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution was based on even more contradictions and inconsistencies than the neo-Darwinist theory of evolution. The punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution, in its present state, holds that living populations show no changes over long periods of time, but stay in a kind of equilibrium. According to this viewpoint, evolutionary changes take place in short time frames and in very restricted populations-that is, the equilibrium is divided into separate periods or, in other words, "punctuated." Because the population is very small, large mutations are chosen by natural selection and thus enable a new species to emerge.
For instance, according to this theory, a species of reptile survives for millions of years, undergoing no changes. But one small group of reptiles somehow leaves this species and undergoes a series of major mutations, the reason for which is not made clear. Those mutations which are advantageous quickly take root in this restricted group. The group evolves rapidly, and in a short time turns into another species of reptile, or even a mammal. Because this process happens very quickly, and in a small population, there are very few fossils of intermediate forms left behind, or maybe none.
On close examination, this theory was actually proposed to develop an answer to the question, "How can one imagine an evolutionary period so rapid as not to leave any fossils behind it?" Two basic hypotheses are accepted while developing this answer:
1. that macromutations-wide-ranging mutations leading to large changes in living creatures' genetic make-up-bring advantages and produce new genetic information; and
2. that small animal populations have greater potential for genetic change.
However, both of these hypotheses are clearly at odds with scientific knowledge.
The first hypothesis-that macromutations occur in large numbers, making the emergence of new species possible-conflicts with known facts of genetics.
One rule, put forward by R. A. Fisher, one of the last century's best known geneticists, and based on observations, clearly invalidates this hypothesis. Fisher states in his book The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection that the likelihood that a particular mutation will become fixed in a population is inversely proportional to its effect on the phenotype.[color:"gold"]175[/color] Or, to put it another way, the bigger the mutation, the less chance it has of becoming a permanent trait within the group.
It is not hard to see the reason for this. Mutations, as we have seen in earlier chapters, consist of chance changes in genetic codes, and never have a beneficial influence on organisms' genetic data. Quite the contrary: individuals affected by mutation undergo serious illnesses and deformities. For this reason, the more an individual is affected by mutation, the less chance it has of surviving. Ernst Mayr, the doyen of Darwinism, makes this comment on the subject:
The occurrence of genetic monstrosities by mutation … is well substantiated, but they are such evident freaks that these monsters can be designated only as 'hopeless'. They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through stabilizing selection … the more drastically a mutation affects the phenotype, the more likely it is to reduce fitness. To believe that such a drastic mutation would produce a viable new type, capable of occupying a new adaptive zone, is equivalent to believing in miracles … The finding of a suitable mate for the 'hopeless monster' and the establishment of reproductive isolation from the normal members of the parental population seem to me insurmountable difficulties.[color:"gold"]176[/color]
It is obvious that mutations cannot bring about evolutionary development, and this fact places both neo-Darwinism and the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution in a terrible difficulty. Since mutation is a destructive mechanism, the macromutations that proponents of the punctuated equilibrium theory talk about must have "macro" destructive effects. Some evolutionists place their hopes in mutations in the regulatory genes in DNA. But the feature of destructiveness which applies to other mutations, applies to these, as well. The problem is that mutation is a random change: any kind of random change in a structure as complex as genetic data will lead to harmful results.
In their book The Natural Limits to Biological Change, the geneticist Lane Lester and the population biologist Raymond Bohlin describe the blind alley represented by the notion of macromutation:
The overall factor that has come up again and again is that mutation remains the ultimate source of all genetic variation in any evolutionary model. Being unsatisfied with the prospects of accumulating small point mutations, many are turning to macromutations to explain the origin of evolutionary novelties. Goldschmidt's hopeful monsters have indeed returned. However, though macromutations of many varieties produce drastic changes, the vast majority will be incapable of survival, let alone show the marks of increasing complexity. If structural gene mutations are inadequate because of their inability to produce significant enough changes, then regulatory and developmental mutations appear even less useful because of the greater likelihood of nonadaptive or even destructive consequences… But one thing seems certain: at present, the thesis that mutations, whether great or small, are capable of producing limitless biological change is more an article of faith than fact.[color:"gold"]177[/color]
Observation and experiment both show that mutations do not enhance genetic data, but rather damage living things. Therefore, it is clearly irrational for proponents of the punctuated equilibrium theory to expect greater success from "mutations" than the mainstream neo-Darwinists have found.
The second concept stressed by the proponents of punctuated equilibrium theory is that of "restricted populations." By this, they mean that the emergence of new species comes about in communities containing very small numbers of plants or animals. According to this claim, large populations of animals show no evolutionary development and maintain their "stasis." But small groups sometimes become separated from these communities, and these "isolated" groups mate only amongst themselves. (It is hypothesized that this usually stems from geographical conditions.) Macromutations are supposed to be most effective within such small, inbreeding groups, and that is how rapid "speciation" can take place. But why do proponents of the punctuated equilibrium theory insist so much on the concept of restricted populations? The reason is clear: Their aim is provide an explanation for the absence of intermediate forms in the fossil record. However, scientific experiments and observations carried out in recent years have revealed that being in a restricted population is not an advantage from the genetic point of view, but rather a disadvantage. Far from developing in such a way as to give rise to new species, small populations give rise to serious genetic defects. The reason for this is that in restricted populations individuals must continually mate within a narrow genetic pool. For this reason, normally heterozygous individuals become increasingly homozygous. This means that defective genes which are normally recessive become dominant, with the result that genetic defects and sickness increase within the population.[color:"gold"]178[/color]
In order to examine this matter, a 35-year study of a small, inbred population of chickens was carried out. It was found that the individual chickens became progressively weaker from the genetic point of view over time. Their egg production fell from 100 to 80 percent of individuals, and their fertility declined from 93 to 74 percent. But when chickens from other regions were added to the population, this trend toward genetic weakening was halted and even reversed. With the infusion of new genes from outside the restricted group, eventually the indicators of the health of the population returned to normal.[color:"gold"]179[/color] This and similar discoveries have clearly revealed that the claim by the proponents of punctuated equilibrium theory that small populations are the source of evolution has no scientific validity.
Scientific discoveries do not support the claims of the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution. The claim that organisms in small populations can swiftly evolve with macromutations is actually even less valid than the model of evolution proposed by the mainstream neo-Darwinists. So, why has this theory become so popular in recent years? This question can be answered by looking at the debates within the Darwinist community. Almost all the proponents of the punctuated equilibrium theory of evolution are paleontologists. This group, led by such famous paleontologists as Steven Jay Gould, Niles Eldredge, and Steven M. Stanley, clearly see that the fossil record disproves the Darwinist theory. However, they have conditioned themselves to believe in evolution, no matter what. So for this reason they have resorted to the punctuated equilibrium theory as the only way of accounting even in part for the facts of the fossil record.
On the other hand, geneticists, zoologists, and anatomists see that there is no mechanism in nature which can give rise to any "punctuations," and for this reason they insist on defending the gradualistic Darwinist model of evolution. The Oxford University zoologist Richard Dawkins fiercely criticizes the proponents of the punctuated equilibrium model of evolution, and accuses them of "destroying the theory of evolution's credibility."
The result of this dialogue of the deaf is the scientific crisis the theory of evolution now faces. We are dealing with an evolution myth which agrees with no experiments or observations, and no paleontological discoveries. Every evolutionist theoretician tries to find support for the theory from his own field of expertise, but then enters into conflict with discoveries from other branches of science. Some people try to gloss over this confusion with superficial comments such as "science progresses by means of academic disputes of this kind." However, the problem is not that the mental gymnastics in these debates are being carried out in order to discover a correct scientific theory; rather, the problem is that speculations are being advanced dogmatically and irrationally in order to stubbornly defend a theory that is demonstrably false.
However, the theoreticians of punctuated equilibrium have made one important, albeit unwitting, contribution to science: They have clearly shown that the fossil record conflicts with the concept of evolution. Phillip Johnson, one of the world's foremost critics of the theory of evolution, has described Stephen Jay Gould, one of the most important punctuated equilibrium theoreticians, as "the Gorbachev of Darwinism."[color:"gold"]180[/color] Gorbachev thought that there were defects in the Communist state system of the Soviet Union and tried to "reform" that system. However, the problems which he thought were defects were in fact fundamental to the nature of the system itself. That is why Communism melted away in his hands. The same fate will soon await Darwinism and the other models of evolution.
172 Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution's Erratic Pace," Natural History, vol. 86, May 1977, p. 14. 173 Stephen M. Stanley, Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, W. H. Freeman and Co., San Francisco, 1979, pp. 35, 159. 174 S. J. Gould, "Return of the Hopeful Monster," The Panda's Thumb, W. W. Norton Co., New York, 1980, pp. 186-193. 175 R. A. Fisher, The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1930. 176 Ernst Mayr, Populations, Species, and Evolution, Belknap Press, Cambridge, 1970, p. 235. 177 Lane P. Lester, Raymond G. Bohlin, The Natural Limits to Biological Change, Probe Books, Dallas, 1989, pp. 141-142. (emphasis added) 178 M. E. Soulé and L. S. Mills, "Enhanced: No need to isolate genetics," Science, 1998, vol. 282, p. 1658. 179 R. L. Westemeier, J. D. Brawn, J. D. Brawn, S. A. Simpson, T. L. Esker, R. W. Jansen, J. W. Walk, E. L. Kershner, J. L. Bouzat, and K. N. Paige, "Tracking the long-term decline and recovery of an isolated population", Science, 1998, vol. 282, p. 1695. 180 Phillip Johnson, Objections Sustained, Intervarsity Press, Illinois, 1998, pp. 77-85
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I would like to say that all of this discussion about creation vs. evolution has truly assisted me in rebuilding my marriage. Thank you.
(or... I am just in a pissy mood.....kthx)
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Not a problem, Patriot92. This thread is NOT intended to have much of anything to do with rebuilding marriages. It's called an "off topic" thread. There have been many Off Topic threads over the years and will be more in the future.
Be comforted that are MANY more thread on all the Forums that are "On Topic" of trying to help rebuild marriages or rebuilding lives following a divorce.
Believe it or not, it's also somewhat helpful to the healing process to be able to talk about things that are NOT directly related to infidelity and emotional recovery from time to time.
God bless.
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Okay. Before venturing into specific "examples" that you cited, let's put for some Science and some scientists looking at the idea that "life" evolved way before the "transitional types" you are postulating. I believe this is the sort of thing you were looking for, "peers" talking about the "chance" that evolution IS the answer as to how living things origiated. Molecular Biology and the Origin of Life
In previous sections, we have shown how the fossil record invalidates the theory of evolution. In point of fact, there was no need for us to relate any of that, because the theory of evolution collapses long before one gets to any claims about the evidence of fossils. The subject that renders the theory meaningless from the very outset is the question of how life first appeared on earth.
When it addresses this question, evolutionary theory claims that life started with a cell that formed by chance. According to this scenario, four billion years ago various chemical compounds underwent a reaction in the primordial atmosphere on the earth in which the effects of thunderbolts and atmospheric pressure led to the formation of the first living cell. The first thing that must be said is that the claim that nonliving materials can come together to form life is an unscientific one that has not been verified by any experiment or observation. Life is only generated from life. Each living cell is formed by the replication of another cell. No one in the world has ever succeeded in forming a living cell by bringing inanimate materials together, not even in the most advanced laboratories.
The theory of evolution claims that a living cell-which cannot be produced even when all the power of the human intellect, knowledge and technology are brought to bear-nevertheless managed to form by chance under primordial conditions on the earth. In the following pages, we will examine why this claim is contrary to the most basic principles of science and reason.
An example of the Logic of Chance
If one believes that a living cell can come into existence by chance, then there is nothing to prevent one from believing a similar story that we will relate below. It is the story of a town.
One day, a lump of clay, pressed between the rocks in a barren land, becomes wet after it rains. The wet clay dries and hardens when the sun rises, and takes on a stiff, resistant form. Afterwards, these rocks, which also served as a mould, are somehow smashed into pieces, and then a neat, well shaped, and strong brick appears. This brick waits under the same natural conditions for years for a similar brick to be formed. This goes on until hundreds and thousands of the same bricks have been formed in the same place. However, by chance, none of the bricks that were previously formed are damaged. Although exposed to storms, rain, wind, scorching sun, and freezing cold for thousands of years, the bricks do not crack, break up, or get dragged away, but wait there in the same place with the same determination for other bricks to form.
When the number of bricks is adequate, they erect a building by being arranged sideways and on top of each other, having been randomly dragged along by the effects of natural conditions such as winds, storms, or tornadoes. Meanwhile, materials such as cement or soil mixtures form under "natural conditions," with perfect timing, and creep between the bricks to clamp them to each other. While all this is happening, iron ore under the ground is shaped under "natural conditions" and lays the foundations of a building that is to be formed with these bricks. At the end of this process, a complete building rises with all its materials, carpentry, and installations intact.
Of course, a building does not only consist of foundations, bricks, and cement. How, then, are the other missing materials to be obtained? The answer is simple: all kinds of materials that are needed for the construction of the building exist in the earth on which it is erected. Silicon for the glass, copper for the electric cables, iron for the columns, beams, water pipes, etc. all exist under the ground in abundant quantities. It takes only the skill of "natural conditions" to shape and place these materials inside the building. All the installations, carpentry, and accessories are placed among the bricks with the help of the blowing wind, rain, and earthquakes. Everything has gone so well that the bricks are arranged so as to leave the necessary window spaces as if they knew that something called glass would be formed later on by natural conditions. Moreover, they have not forgotten to leave some space to allow the installation of water, electricity and heating systems, which are also later to be formed by chance. Everything has gone so well that "coincidences" and "natural conditions" produce a perfect design. If you have managed to sustain your belief in this story so far, then you should have no trouble surmising how the town's other buildings, plants, highways, sidewalks, substructures, communications, and transportation systems came about. If you possess technical knowledge and are fairly conversant with the subject, you can even write an extremely "scientific" book of a few volumes stating your theories about "the evolutionary process of a sewage system and its uniformity with the present structures." You may well be honored with academic awards for your clever studies, and may consider yourself a genius, shedding light on the nature of humanity.
The theory of evolution, which claims that life came into existence by chance, is no less absurd than our story, for, with all its operational systems, and systems of communication, transportation and management, a cell is no less complex than a city. In his book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, the molecular biologist Michael Denton discusses the complex structure of the cell:
To grasp the reality of life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnify a cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter and resembles a giant airship large enough to cover a great city like London or New York. What we would then see would be an object of unparalleled complexity and adaptive design. On the surface of the cell we would see millions of openings, like the port holes of a vast space ship, opening and closing to allow a continual stream of materials to flow in and out. If we were to enter one of these openings we would find ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity... Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which-a functional protein or gene-is complex beyond our own creative capacities, a reality which is the very antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by the intelligence of man?[color:"gold"]237[/color]
The Complex Structure and System in the Cell
The complex structure of the living cell was unknown in Darwin's day and at the time, ascribing life to "coincidences and natural conditions" was thought by evolutionists to be convincing enough. Darwin had proposed that the first cell could easily have formed "in some warm little pond."[color:"gold"]238[/color]
One of Darwin's supporters, the German biologist Ernst Haeckel, examined under the microscope a mixture of mud removed from the sea bed by a research ship and claimed that this was a nonliving substance that turned into a living one. This so-called "mud that comes to life," known as Bathybius haeckelii ("Haeckel's mud from the depths"), is an indication of just how simple a thing life was thought to be by the founders of the theory of evolution.
The technology of the twentieth century has delved into the tiniest particles of life, and has revealed that the cell is the most complex system mankind has ever confronted. Today we know that the cell contains power stations producing the energy to be used by the cell, factories manufacturing the enzymes and hormones essential for life, a databank where all the necessary information about all products to be produced is recorded, complex transportation systems and pipelines for carrying raw materials and products from one place to another, advanced laboratories and refineries for breaking down external raw materials into their useable parts, and specialized cell membrane proteins to control the incoming and outgoing materials. And these constitute only a small part of this incredibly complex system.
In Darwin's time, it was thought that the cell had a very simple structure. Darwin's ardent supporter Ernst Haeckel suggested that the above mud pulled up from the bottom of the sea could produce life by itself.
W. H. Thorpe, an evolutionist scientist, acknowledges that "The most elementary type of cell constitutes a 'mechanism' unimaginably more complex than any machine yet thought up, let alone constructed, by man."[color:"gold"]239[/color]
A cell is so complex that even the high level of technology attained today cannot produce one. No effort to create an artificial cell has ever met with success. Indeed, all attempts to do so have been abandoned.
The theory of evolution claims that this system-which mankind, with all the intelligence, knowledge and technology at its disposal, cannot succeed in reproducing-came into existence "by chance" under the conditions of the primordial earth. Actually, the probability of forming a cell by chance is about the same as that of producing a perfect copy of a book following an explosion in a printing house.
The English mathematician and astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle made a similar comparison in an interview published in Nature magazine on November 12, 1981. Although an evolutionist himself, Hoyle stated that the chance that higher life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable to the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.[color:"gold"]240[/color]
This means that it is not possible for the cell to have come into being by chance, and therefore it must definitely have been "created." One of the basic reasons why the theory of evolution cannot explain how the cell came into existence is the "irreducible complexity" in it. A living cell maintains itself with the harmonious co-operation of many organelles. If only one of these organelles fails to function, the cell cannot remain alive. The cell does not have the chance to wait for unconscious mechanisms like natural selection or mutation to permit it to develop. Thus, the first cell on earth was necessarily a complete cell possessing all the required organelles and functions, and this definitely means that this cell had to have been created.
The Problem of the Origin of Proteins
So much for the cell, but evolution fails even to account for the building-blocks of a cell. The formation, under natural conditions, of just one single protein out of the thousands of complex protein molecules making up the cell is impossible.
Proteins are giant molecules consisting of smaller units called amino acids that are arranged in a particular sequence in certain quantities and structures. These units constitute the building blocks of a living protein. The simplest protein is composed of 50 amino acids, but there are some that contain thousands.
The crucial point is this. The absence, addition, or replacement of a single amino acid in the structure of a protein causes the protein to become a useless molecular heap. Every amino acid has to be in the right place and in the right order. The theory of evolution, which claims that life emerged as a result of chance, is quite helpless in the face of this order, since it is too wondrous to be explained by coincidence. (Furthermore, the theory cannot even substantiate the claim of the accidental formation of amino acids, as will be discussed later.)
The fact that it is quite impossible for the functional structure of proteins to come about by chance can easily be observed even by simple probability calculations that anybody can understand.
For instance, an average-sized protein molecule composed of 288 amino acids, and contains twelve different types of amino acids can be arranged in 10300 different ways. (This is an astronomically huge number, consisting of 1 followed by 300 zeros.) Of all of these possible sequences, only one forms the desired protein molecule. The rest of them are amino-acid chains that are either totally useless, or else potentially harmful to living things.
In other words, the probability of the formation of only one protein molecule is "1 in 10to the300th power." The probability of this "1" actually occurring is practically nil. (In practice, probabilities smaller than 1 over 10 to the 50th power are thought of as "zero probability"). The complex 3-D structure of the protein cytochrome-C. The slightest difference in the order of the amino acids, represented by little balls, will render the protein nonfunctional. Furthermore, a protein molecule of 288 amino acids is a rather modest one compared with some giant protein molecules consisting of thousands of amino acids. When we apply similar probability calculations to these giant protein molecules, we see that even the word "impossible" is insufficient to describe the true situation.
When we proceed one step further in the evolutionary scheme of life, we observe that one single protein means nothing by itself. One of the smallest bacteria ever discovered, Mycoplasma hominis H39, contains 600 types of proteins. In this case, we would have to repeat the probability calculations we have made above for one protein for each of these 600 different types of proteins. The result beggars even the concept of impossibility.
Some people reading these lines who have so far accepted the theory of evolution as a scientific explanation may suspect that these numbers are exaggerated and do not reflect the true facts. That is not the case: these are definite and concrete facts. No evolutionist can object to these numbers.
This situation is in fact acknowledged by many evolutionists. For example, Harold F. Blum, a prominent evolutionist scientist, states that "The spontaneous formation of a polypeptide of the size of the smallest known proteins seems beyond all probability."[color:"gold"]241[/color]
Evolutionists claim that molecular evolution took place over a very long period of time and that this made the impossible possible. Nevertheless, no matter how long the given period may be, it is not possible for amino acids to form proteins by chance. William Stokes, an American geologist, admits this fact in his book Essentials of Earth History, writing that the probability is so small "that it would not occur during billions of years on billions of planets, each covered by a blanket of concentrated watery solution of the necessary amino acids."[color:"gold"]242[/color] So what does all this mean? Perry Reeves, a professor of chemistry, answers the question:
When one examines the vast number of possible structures that could result from a simple random combination of amino acids in an evaporating primordial pond, it is mind-boggling to believe that life could have originated in this way. It is more plausible that a Great Builder with a master plan would be required for such a task.[color:"gold"]243[/color]
If the coincidental formation of even one of these proteins is impossible, it is billions of times "more impossible" for some one million of those proteins to come together by chance and make up a complete human cell. What is more, by no means does a cell consist of a mere heap of proteins. In addition to the proteins, a cell also includes nucleic acids, carbohydrates, lipids, vitamins, and many other chemicals such as electrolytes arranged in a specific proportion, equilibrium, and design in terms of both structure and function. Each of these elements functions as a building block or co-molecule in various organelles. Robert Shapiro, a professor of chemistry at New York University and a DNA expert, calculated the probability of the coincidental formation of the 2000 types of proteins found in a single bacterium (There are 200,000 different types of proteins in a human cell.) The number that was found was 1 over 10 to the 40000th power.[color:"gold"]244[/color] (This is an incredible number obtained by putting 40,000 zeros after the 1)
A professor of applied mathematics and astronomy from University College Cardiff, Wales, Chandra Wickramasinghe, comments:
The likelihood of the spontaneous formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution. There was no primeval soup, neither on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence.[color:"gold"]245[/color]
Sir Fred Hoyle comments on these implausible numbers: Indeed, such a theory (that life was assembled by an intelligence) is so obvious that one wonders why it is not widely accepted as being self-evident. The reasons are psychological rather than scientific.[color:"gold"]246[/color]
An article published in the January 1999 issue of Science News revealed that no explanation had yet been found for how amino acids could turn into proteins:
…no one has ever satisfactorily explained how the widely distributed ingredients linked up into proteins. Presumed conditions of primordial Earth would have driven the amino acids toward lonely isolation.[color:"gold"]247[/color]
Left-Handed Proteins
Let us now examine in detail why the evolutionist scenario regarding the formation of proteins is impossible.
Even the correct sequence of the right amino acids is still not enough for the formation of a functional protein molecule. In addition to these requirements, each of the 20 different types of amino acids present in the composition of proteins must be left-handed. There are two different types of amino acids-as of all organic molecules-called "left-handed" and "right-handed." The difference between them is the mirror-symmetry between their three dimensional structures, which is similar to that of a person's right and left hands.
The same protein's left- (L) and right- (D) handed isomers. The proteins in living creatures consist only of left-handed amino acids. Amino acids of either of these two types can easily bond with one another. But one astonishing fact that has been revealed by research is that all the proteins in plants and animals on this planet, from the simplest organism to the most complex, are made up of left-handed amino acids. If even a single right-handed amino acid gets attached to the structure of a protein, the protein is rendered useless. In a series of experiments, surprisingly, bacteria that were exposed to right-handed amino acids immediately destroyed them. In some cases, they produced usable left-handed amino acids from the fractured components.
Let us for an instant suppose that life came about by chance as evolutionists claim it did. In this case, the right- and left-handed amino acids that were generated by chance should be present in roughly equal proportions in nature. Therefore, all living things should have both right- and left-handed amino acids in their constitution, because chemically it is possible for amino acids of both types to combine with each other. However, as we know, in the real world the proteins existing in all living organisms are made up only of left-handed amino acids.
The question of how proteins can pick out only the left-handed ones from among all amino acids, and how not even a single right-handed amino acid gets involved in the life process, is a problem that still baffles evolutionists. Such a specific and conscious selection constitutes one of the greatest impasses facing the theory of evolution. Moreover, this characteristic of proteins makes the problem facing evolutionists with respect to "chance" even worse. In order for a "meaningful" protein to be generated, it is not enough for the amino acids to be present in a particular number and sequence, and to be combined together in the right three-dimensional design. Additionally, all these amino acids have to be left-handed: not even one of them can be right-handed. Yet there is no natural selection mechanism which can identify that a right-handed amino acid has been added to the sequence and recognize that it must therefore be removed from the chain. This situation once more eliminates for good the possibility of coincidence and chance.
The Britannica Science Encyclopaedia, which is an outspoken defender of evolution, states that the amino acids of all living organisms on earth, and the building blocks of complex polymers such as proteins, have the same left-handed asymmetry. It adds that this is tantamount to tossing a coin a million times and always getting heads. The same encyclopaedia states that it is impossible to understand why molecules become left-handed or right-handed, and that this choice is fascinatingly related to the origin of life on earth.[color:"gold"]248[/color]
If a coin always turns up heads when tossed a million times, is it more logical to attribute that to chance, or else to accept that there is conscious intervention going on? The answer should be obvious. However, obvious though it may be, evolutionists still take refuge in coincidence, simply because they do not want to accept the existence of conscious intervention.
A situation similar to the left-handedness of amino acids also exists with respect to nucleotides, the smallest units of the nucleic acids, DNA and RNA. In contrast to proteins, in which only left-handed amino acids are chosen, in the case of the nucleic acids, the preferred forms of their nucleotide components are always right-handed. This is another fact that can never be explained by chance. In conclusion, it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by the probabilities we have examined that the origin of life cannot be explained by chance. If we attempt to calculate the probability of an average-sized protein consisting of 400 amino acids being selected only from left-handed amino acids, we come up with a probability of 1 in 2400, or 10 to the 120th power. Just for a comparison, let us remember that the number of electrons in the universe is estimated at 10 to the 79th power, which although vast, is a much smaller number. The probability of these amino acids forming the required sequence and functional form would generate much larger numbers. If we add these probabilities to each other, and if we go on to work out the probabilities of even higher numbers and types of proteins, the calculations become inconceivable.
The Indispensibility of the Peptide Link
The difficulties the theory of evolution is unable to overcome with regard to the development of a single protein are not limited to those we have recounted so far. It is not enough for amino acids to be arranged in the correct numbers, sequences, and required three-dimensional structures. The formation of a protein also requires that amino acid molecules with more than one arm be linked to each other only in certain ways. Such a bond is called a "peptide bond." Amino acids can make different bonds with each other; but proteins are made up of those-and only those-amino acids which are joined by peptide bonds.
A comparison will clarify this point. Suppose that all the parts of a car were complete and correctly assembled, with the sole exception that one of the wheels was fastened in place not with the usual nuts and bolts, but with a piece of wire, in such a way that its hub faced the ground. It would be impossible for such a car to move even the shortest distance, no matter how complex its technology or how powerful its engine. At first glance, everything would seem to be in the right place, but the faulty attachment of even one wheel would make the entire car useless. In the same way, in a protein molecule the joining of even one amino acid to another with a bond other than a peptide bond would make the entire molecule useless.
Research has shown that amino acids combining at random combine with a peptide bond only 50 percent of the time, and that the rest of the time different bonds that are not present in proteins emerge. To function properly, each amino acid making up a protein must be joined to others only with a peptide bond, in the same way that it likewise must be chosen only from among left-handed forms.
The probability of this happening is the same as the probability of each protein's being left-handed. That is, when we consider a protein made up of 400 amino acids, the probability of all amino acids combining among themselves with only peptide bonds is 1 in 2399.
Zero Probability
If we add together the three probabilities (that of amino acids being laid out correctly, that of their all being left-handed, and that of their all being joined by peptide links), then we come face to face with the astronomical figure of 1 in 10to the 950th power. This is a probability only on paper. Practically speaking, there is zero chance of its actually happening. As we saw earlier, in mathematics, a probability smaller than 1 in 10 to the 50th power is statistically considered to have a "zero" probability of occurring.
Even if we suppose that amino acids have combined and decomposed by a "trial and error" method, without losing any time since the formation of the earth, in order to form a single protein molecule, the time that would be required for something with a probability of 10 to the 950th power to happen would still hugely exceed the estimated age of the earth.
PROTEIN SYNTHESIS The ribosome reads the messenger RNA, and arranges the amino acids according to the information it receives there. In the illustrations, the consecutive order of the [ val, cys, and ala amino acids ], established by the ribosome and transfer RNA, can be seen. All proteins in nature are produced by this complex process. No protein comes about by "accident." The conclusion to be drawn from all this is that evolution falls into a terrible abyss of improbability even when it comes to the formation of a single protein. One of the foremost proponents of the theory of evolution, Professor Richard Dawkins, states the impossibility the theory has fallen into in these terms:
So the sort of lucky event we are looking at could be so wildly improbable that the chances of its happening, somewhere in the universe, could be as low as one in a billion billion billion in any one year. If it did happen on only one planet, anywhere in the universe, that planet has to be our planet-because here we are talking about it.[color:"gold"]249[/color]
This admission by one of evolution's foremost authorities clearly reflects the logical muddle the theory of evolution is built on. The above statements in Dawkins's book Climbing Mount Improbable are a striking example of circular reasoning which actually explains nothing: "If we are here, then that means that evolution happened."
As we have seen, even the most prominent of the proponents of evolution confess that the theory is buried in impossibility when it comes to accounting for the first stage of life. But how interesting it is that, rather than accept the complete unreality of the theory they maintain, they prefer to cling to evolution in a dogmatic manner! This is a completely ideological fixation.
Is There A Trial-And-Error Mechanism in Nature?
Finally, we may conclude with a very important point in relation to the basic logic of probability calculations, of which we have already seen some examples. We indicated that the probability calculations made above reach astronomical levels, and that these astronomical odds have no chance of actually happening. However, there is a much more important and damaging fact facing evolutionists here. This is that under natural conditions, no period of trial and error can even start, despite the astronomical odds, because there is no trial-and-error mechanism in nature from which proteins could emerge.
The calculations we gave above to demonstrate the probability of the formation of a protein molecule with 500 amino acids are valid only for an ideal trial-and-error environment, which does not actually exist in real life. That is, the probability of obtaining a useful protein is "1" in 10 to the 950th power only if we suppose that there exists an imaginary mechanism in which an invisible hand joins 500 amino acids at random and then, seeing that this is not the right combination, disentangles them one by one, and arranges them again in a different order, and so on. In each trial, the amino acids would have to be separated one by one, and arranged in a new order. The synthesis should be stopped after the 500th amino acid has been added, and it must be ensured that not even one extra amino acid is involved. The trial should then be stopped to see whether or not a functional protein has yet been formed, and, in the event of failure, everything should be split up again and then tested for another sequence.
Additionally, in each trial, not even one extraneous substance should be allowed to become involved. It is also imperative that the chain formed during the trial should not be separated and destroyed before reaching the 499th link. These conditions mean that the probabilities we have mentioned above can only operate in a controlled environment where there is a conscious mechanism directing the beginning, the end, and each intermediate stage of the process, and where only "the selection of the amino acids" is left to chance. It is clearly impossible for such an environment to exist under natural conditions. Therefore the formation of a protein in the natural environment is logically and technically impossible.
Since some people are unable to take a broad view of these matters, but approach them from a superficial viewpoint and assume protein formation to be a simple chemical reaction, they may make unrealistic deductions such as "amino acids combine by way of reaction and then form proteins."
However, accidental chemical reactions taking place in a nonliving structure can only lead to simple and primitive changes. The number of these is predetermined and limited. For a somewhat more complex chemical material, huge factories, chemical plants, and laboratories have to be involved. Medicines and many other chemical materials that we use in our daily life are made in just this way. Proteins have much more complex structures than these chemicals produced by industry. Therefore, it is impossible for proteins, each of which is a wonder of design and engineering, in which every part takes its place in a fixed order, to originate as a result of haphazard chemical reactions.
Let us for a minute put aside all the impossibilities we have described so far, and suppose that a useful protein molecule still evolved spontaneously "by accident." Even so, evolution again has no answers, because in order for this protein to survive, it would need to be isolated from its natural habitat and be protected under very special conditions. Otherwise, it would either disintegrate from exposure to natural conditions on earth, or else join with other acids, amino acids, or chemical compounds, thereby losing its particular properties and turning into a totally different and useless substance.
What we have been discussing so far is the impossibility of just one protein's coming about by chance. However, in the human body alone there are some 100,000 proteins functioning. Furthermore, there are about 1.5 million species named, and another 10 million are believed to exist. Although many similar proteins are used in many life forms, it is estimated that there must be 100 million or more types of protein in the plant and animal worlds. And the millions of species which have already become extinct are not included in this calculation. In other words, hundreds of millions of protein codes have existed in the world. If one considers that not even one protein can be explained by chance, it is clear what the existence of hundreds of millions of different proteins must mean. Bearing this truth in mind, it can clearly be understood that such concepts as "coincidence" and "chance" have nothing to do with the existence of living things.
237 Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, Burnett Books, London, 1985, pp. 328, 342.
238 Charles Darwin, Life and Letter of Charles Darwin, vol. II, From Charles Darwin to J. Do Hooker, March 29, 1863.
239 W. R. Bird, The Origin of Species Revisited, Thomas Nelson Co., Nashville, 1991, pp. 298-99.
240 "Hoyle on Evolution," Nature, vol. 294, November 12, 1981, p. 105.
241 H. Blum, Time's Arrow and Evolution, 158 (3d ed. 1968), cited in W. R. Bird, The Origin of Species Revisited, Thomas Nelson Co., Nashville, 1991, p. 304. (emphasis added)
242 W. Stokes, Essentials of Earth History, 186 (4th ed. 1942), cited in W. R. Bird, The Origin of Species Revisited, Thomas Nelson Co., Nashville, 1991, p. 305.
243 J. D. Thomas, Evolution and Faith, ACU Press, Abilene, TX, 1988, pp. 81-82. (emphasis added)
244 Robert Shapiro, Origins: A Skeptic's Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, Summit Books, New York, 1986, p. 127.
245 Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1984, p. 148. (emphasis added)
246 Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe, Evolution from Space, Simon & Schuster, New York, 1984, p. 130. (emphasis added)
247 Simpson, Sarah, "Life's First Scalding Steps," Science News, Jan. 9, 1999, 155(2):25.
248 Fabbri Britannica Bilim Ansiklopedisi (Fabbri Britannica Science Encyclopaedia), vol. 2, no. 22, p. 519.
249 Dawkins, Richard, Climbing Mount Improbable, W.W. Norton, New York, 1996, p. 283.
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FH--I believe this is the sort of thing you were looking for, "peers" talking about the "chance" that evolution IS the answer as to how living things origiated.
D--Not sure if you are directing this to me or not, but, no, what you posted (source: “Drawinismrefuted.com”) does not qualify as a legitimate scientific source (and thus is not ‘science’), as this article does not appear in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, although it does claim to reference two that potentially would qualify (refs #240 and #247). Again, these cut-and-paste posts from creationist websites add nothing to the discussion about scientific findings.
If you really want to hold a discussion about scientific evidence, a good place to start would be to go to your closest university library and look at some of the tens of thousands of published research papers on evolution in actual scientific journals. An easier place to start would be in look in a modern biology text used in an accredited university’s biology department. I hear that Futuyma is one of the better modern text on evolutionary biology.
A good follow-up would be to decide what specifically you are arguing against, as you frequently lump evolution and abiogenesis together. One is an established scientific fact, while the other is only speculation. Treating them as the same scientific topic is nonsensical. There is no need to rehash the details, as all of these issues were discussed on this thread more than once.
D.
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Dimpsasawa - Thanks, but you can go to the university and read up on articles published ONLY by confirmed evolutionists. Here, once again, is the attitude that ONLY evolutionists can decide what is "worthy" of consideration.
Why don't you comment upon the mathematics? Why gloss over and demean the information by the standard elitist ploy of stating something like "although it does claim to reference two that potentially would qualify [as "peer reviewed] (refs #240 and #247). "
Heaven forbid! I'm stunned that you would admit that ANY of the sacrosanct "peer reviewed" publications would come anywhere close to supporting a "non-evolutionary" view.
Mathematics IS mathematics, no matter "where" it might be published. Attack the MATH if you will, but not the place it appears. MATHEMATICS is said to be the "fundamental" language of science, so let's not obfuscate the "reality of the numbers" by denigrating WHERE something is, or is not, published. If the math is "bad," say so. If it isn't, what are you afraid of?
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FH--Dimpsasawa - Thanks, but you can go to the university and read up on articles published ONLY by confirmed evolutionists.
D—Actually a number of creationists have published in the scientific literature. Just not on topics concerning evolution.
FH--Here, once again, is the attitude that ONLY evolutionists can decide what is "worthy" of consideration.
D—No, the attitude is what it worthy according to the scientific method. Unrepeatable findings are not worthy according to the scientific method. That is the only attitude I bring to this discussion.
FH--Why don't you comment upon the mathematics? Why gloss over and demean the information by the standard elitist ploy of stating something like "although it does claim to reference two that potentially would qualify [as "peer reviewed] (refs #240 and #247). "
D—I did. See my post earlier on this thread to Mortarman regarding it. If you have a new mathematical calculation, go ahead and present it and I’ll take a look at that as well.
FH--Heaven forbid! I'm stunned that you would admit that ANY of the sacrosanct "peer reviewed" publications would come anywhere close to supporting a "non-evolutionary" view.
D—If you actually read the publications cited, my guess would be that they don’t. If you really believe that they do, I could find these and post them and well see.
FH--Mathematics IS mathematics, no matter "where" it might be published. Attack the MATH if you will, but not the place it appears. MATHEMATICS is said to be the "fundamental" language of science, so let's not obfuscate the "reality of the numbers" by denigrating WHERE something is, or is not, published. If the math is "bad," say so. If it isn't, what are you afraid of?
D—See my earlier post on this subject. Again, post a detailed calculation and we’ll take a look at it. So far I’ve seen nothing but unjustified final conclusions with no calculations. As far as where it is published, this is of primary importance in science, particularly if a researcher is dealing with something outside of his field (as I am with biology). I don’t have the knowledge to refute all possible misconceptions, errors, tricks and deceptions; none of us do. Something published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal at least means that the article has been subjected to a bare minimum of quality control. Of course, crap does get through, as reviewers just check approach and concept, not the actual results; i.e. of couse we don't repeat the actual experiments and calculations when we review papers.
The real peer review in science in fact comes after something is published: can other researchers recover the same findings and come to the same conclusions? If there are many positive publications on a topic, this is a good sign. Very few publications or a number of negative publications on a finding is very bad news for the hypothesis, as its evidence didn’t pass the fundamental requirement in science of repeatability.
This is why the publication record of a claim in a legitimate journal is of fundamental importance in a discussion of scientific findings, and why I stress it in these kinds of discussions.
D.
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