Hello - I posted here a while ago, but I was not a regular poster so you may not remember my story. Here's a quick history: Me=BS, WS=H, married=2yrs, together 6yrs, no children, DDay 12/31/04, Plan A, then Plan B, A over, recovery, NC broken, then false recovery, divorcing (?), now recovery again??

I'm calling out to other BS who have gone through this because, based on the stories I read, I know that a WS doesn't always "get it" right away and the fog can take a while to burn off. So, I don't know if I'm just hurting because, as the BS, I'm expecting my H to take more of the burden of recovery effort and be more humble/sorry, or what. Am I expecting too much? Are you, the FBS who are recovering, really, truly, completely happy with your FWS and your M, or would you have been happier if you had taken the short-term pain of ending the M and found someone who hadn't betrayed you and hurt you beyond words? Is it harder to swallow the pain with a WS who isn't doing the heavy-lifting for recovery (and who maybe is not capable of being that giving?)?? Are you just facing more of the selfishness and justification in the future? I just don't know if what I'm experiencing from my H and his attitude is leftover fog or a sign that he is just very focused on himself and incapable of the 4 Rules. I'm afraid the latter.

Sorry for babbling -- I'm just confused/panicked becuase our D will be final soon, and my H is coming to me at the last minute to see if we can reconcile. If the D goes through, then I am completely done and will not consider reconciliation after that. We are in the final hour and I just keep praying but I don't know which way to turn.

I truly believe that we have a lot of great qualities as a couple and that we could have a great M if... and it's a big if... we both worked the MB program. I never wanted this D and I have religious objections to a D, so this chance at the end makes me happy.

Here's the problem: my H is coming to me with a bunch of demands (keep in mind, I was the BS, not him) and he is still throwing around a lot of blame and justification for his A, rewriting history (of course, in a way that always favors him, and it's a major rewrite, the timeline is waaaaay off) and he's still grossly exaggerating all the things I didn't do perfectly while labeling all of his mistakes and his A "understandable" or saying that I'm making it up. The conversation was intense tonight and I tried very hard not to LB and just listen to my H and try to understand him, no matter how unfair or how much it hurt me. Then my H started to say nice things about OW and I just lost it and called her a name, so of course, he defended her. I know I shouldn't say anything about OW, but i just hit the breaking point -- it's so hard when I know that my toe nail clippings have more beauty, integrity, honor, decency, morals and humanity than her entire being. Ugh! It sickens me to think that my H would lower himself to be with someone like that. Sorry, I'm LBing here. Let's not forget to mention that since the A ended and we are not living together right now, my H paid at least one prostitute for sex. I don't know if i can get over these things.

Shouldn't I be the one who is providing the "list" of things I need to recover the M instead of vice versa? Bob -I think you've advised BS that they shoudn't discount the price to get back into their hearts -- do you feel compensated by your FWS? Can we ever? Are there some WS who have a character flaw and are incapable of having a good M and some who just don't "get it" yet? How do I tell the difference? I really cannot go through the cruelty and betrayal again. Any thoughts/advice?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to single out BobPure, I just thought of his story. Any and all thoughts are welcome - I know it's late! Thanks everyone and God bless!

Hi, butterscotch.

Here is my opinion.

Quote:
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I really cannot go through the cruelty and betrayal again. Any thoughts/advice?
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If he hasn't stopped with the other woman, and it doesn't sound like he has, then you are going to go through this again if you take him back.

Let me ask you a question. Why does he want to stop the divorce?

If he wants to stop the divorce so that the two of you can address issues in the marriage, and with him having absolutely no contact with the other woman ever again in his life, and him having written a no contact letter and you approving it and sending it, then maybe, just maybe you should talk about a delay, but not stopping the divorce.

If those basic conditions are not met, and his reasons for stopping the divorce lie elsewhere, then I would encourage you to continue with the divorce.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

Thank you for your reply. My H says his goal in reconciling is to have a great M. I guess it's just the way he goes about it - with lots of demands as if he was the BS, not me. I have only asked for the 4Rules (including NC). He says the A is over and he's willing to do NC, but I wonder if his idea of NC is really the MB-view.

My biggest concern was that there may be some WS who have a character defect -- an inability to have a good M and be a good spouse over the long-run, and I was trying to decipher whether my H's demands/attitude is an indication of that or just leftover fog. Does anyone have any thoughts/opinions?

I think I will ask my H to review the 4Rules and NC and see if he can really commit to doing those things for the rest of his life. If not, then I keep walking. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or if I should continue to be patient. After reading stories here, I know that not all WS get it at first. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would like to see advice from others whose S kept defending the OP. I personally do not feel they are commiteed to the M if they find the Op so wonderful. I think this is a BIG issue for alot of us BS. I have a real problem with this one. I am the type if someone is in a R then it is hands off unitl that R is really really over. I will not ever be the OW ever. I know what pain it causes the S and if someone can be like that then they are a horrible person that I do not even want to know.

i would be very concerned about his attitude....pisses you off to hear him say it for one conversation...how are you gonna live a life of justifications and be happy?

Yes, I would also like to hear what others say about a F?WS who still defends the OP.

I think I'm having a hard time letting go. I know that a lot of WS have trouble getting it and think the OP is a good person even when facts indicate the opposite, but eventually this opinion changes. I'm trying to figure out if my H is just a slow to get it H or incapable of having a good M.

Any thoughts from those who've been there?

How old are you, butterscotch? Your H?

WAT - thank you for taking the time to reply. I'm familiar w/ your story. I'm 32, H is 35, OW is 23. We really do have a lot of good qualities as H&W (even H says so), but I don't know how to take my H's demands and attitude (borderline anger?) - it's hard to describe, but I'm sure any BS here has a sense of what I'm trying to describe. The A has been over for a while, but she is persistent in contacting him and there was contact about 2 months ago. I think H is very angry that I wasn't more attentive during the M and is making a huge deal out of everything I might have done wrong in order to feel better about his A. On the other hand, his actions are all excusable / explained away according to him. I think this is common and now I'm repeating myself.

Help. How do you tell the difference between a FWS who can become a great H (but may still be foggy) and a FWS who is incapable of it? I have 3 days before the D is final.

I don't know how to tell the difference without waiting for the outcome. I don't think anybody does unless there's indicators of permanently flawed character or some personality disorder or other mental issue - and even these are just indicators of higher risk of failure, not for-sure bets of outcome.

I can say one very sure thing regarding your sitch > divorce will not solve any problems, nor prevent any problems from being solved. Divorce is a legal action between you, your H and the government. Paperwork. Assigning any further meaning to it is merely symbolic. You don't march down the aisle backwards and "undo" your promises.

So, my suggestion to you is to remove the significance of the divorce from your decision logic and see where this permits your thought process to go. In your thought process, please consider that "failure" of the marriage has already occurred, does not necessarily mean you have failed, and does not need divorce to make it so. If you don't divorce, it is still failed.

WAT

WAT,

Thank you for your insight. Based on your experience, what do you thik of a FWS that still speaks well of OP? Just leftover fog/common or an inability to understand the hurt caused by the A and help the BS heal? Thoughts?

You make a very good point about the divorce. I know that many people have remarried. However, for me the divorce would be the end of any hope of reconciliation. I don't know why I feel so strongly about that. I think it's because I would feel that if my H lets the D proceed, it's just another form of disrespect and de-valuation of me and our M. I'm not good at enforcing boundaries, but this is one where I will have no problem. D will be the end of any relationship I have with my H - forever. It is one of the consequences of his decisions/actions/failure to act. Also, I don't think I could heal if I continue to have contact w/ him after the D. Perhaps I'm being too severe on this issue. Thoughts?

I'm just curious.

Why was the OW brought up....other than you stating that NC is a MUST?

She ISN'T a part of you and your H's relationship....so she should not be a part of your conversations, unless of course she is harassing you in some way. Otherwise....don't waste your time even thinking about her. You have more important things to think about.

As for your H defending her or whatever. Well...that's a big red flag waving. Not that he should hate her or demean her....but IF the A was over one would think that he wouldn't want to talk about her at all....let alone defend her.

What's his reason for defending her if the A is over?

As for him setting his own boundaries and guidelines or demands. Well....it's understandable to a point. As a WS they do cause the majority of the pain, anger, frustration while they are a WS. BUT....if the marriage was in a bad place before the A happened....then the WS that wants to reconsile WILL want and is owed some boundaries of thier own. Just because they are a WS doesn't mean that they have completely lost all their rights and that it's either the BS's way or the highway. Marriage IS a 2 way street.

Using the boundaries and guidelines as simple demands for the use of justification and rewriting history alone however is a selfish act. Selfishness has no place in a marriage.

As for being able to tell whether or not your H is capable of being a good marriage partner....well.....only time tells. It's one of those chances that life throws at you.....but YOU have to decide whether the chance is worth taking. Better yet...you have to decide if the person is worthy of the chance you are considering.

The choice is yours. You already know what he claims to want.

I certainly follow your rationale for the emotional significance of the divorce to you. If it signifies for you the end of any hope for reconciliation, that's your call and woe be to anyone to second guess this meaning to you. It's as good as any point to decide you've done enough. But again, it's arbitrary, right? (Any point would be arbitrary.)


You probably didn't mean it, but I'm a pretty good person to ask this question in that my XW is still married to OM. I assume this means she speaks highly of him - but who knows? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What do I think of it? In her case, she belongs in the loonie bin.

But seriously, from what I've absorbed on this forum, a WS who still speaks highly of the OP has not yet fully shed the affair. Note I said WS and not FWS.

A question for you: at what point do you think your H became a former WS? Why, given his continued demeanor?

WAT

Some more questions for you -

Please describe what took place in your Plan B.

What was the basis for ending Plan B?

Why did you choose to not re-establish Plan B?

If you choose to stop the divorce, what will you do instead?

WAT

Why "only" the 4 rules?

Why not 1 year of couples counseling?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Butterscotch,

The thing I hate about the new format is that I cannot go back to other posts while I am posting to make sure I have things right. So hang with me even if a get a few things wrong.

Given the short duration of your marriage, given that 3 days before D, he has NOT decided to work on the marriage, given that 3 days before the D he has no sense of what he has done to you, given that 3 days before the D he is still angry at you for YOUR failures (real or imagined), given that he shows no levels of contriteness (new word <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), I think you let the D happen.

You have no children. You have no reason to suspect that he will change (I hear of no plans for counseling, I hear of no plans to change things other than HIS demands) and I don't think you two can iron this out in 3 days. Further, even Harley points out that all marriage can not/should not be saved.

I am speaking to you from a purely pragmatic point of view based on the data as I see if from your post. Love is an interesting thing as you well know. It is an action, not a feelings, and his actions do NOT speak of love for you. His current behavior doesn't either.

It is your call, but personally given what you have said, I would let it go. As WAT has pointed out, divorce is NOT the easy way out, but it is a way out.

You see IF all of your H's ascertains are correct, you won't learn in 3 days how to fix them. If they are ALL wrong, you are not dealing with a man that is seeing reality as you know it. If it is a mix, then it is a bigger mess because BOTH of you will have to change. From what you have said NOTHING is a "show stopper", but the issue is will both of you really work to make a better marriage. Lists of demands don't make for better marriages, anger doesn't make for a better marriage. It is not uncommon for the WS to hold a lot of anger for what the BS did before the A. In fact it is very common here. However, in your case the clock is ticking and the bell is about to ring.

It is your call. It is up to you to determine if you can set and hold your boundaries. It is up to both of you to change, but will you? Will he? Only you can tell.

I am sorry for this situation, but I think your H is still in withdrawal, and the A dragged on long enough for divorce to be coming to fruition. Could the marriage be saved I don't think there is any doubt IF you both want it to. Will it be saved? There is where the doubt lies.

I am sorry for the situation you are in, but I would counsel you to look at the data, that you have, and NOT the data you would HOPE will show up later.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Forgot to say, the thing that strikes me the most is that there is NO plan for recovery. Hence recovery is unlikely. A stalemate perhaps, an accomodation of each other perhaps, but recovery, not until you both have a plan you can agree on. List of demands is NOT a plan

thanks everyone - I have to run to a job interview (one of the fallouts of being a BS), but I will post responses later -- I really appreciate the advice and I want to give more background -- thanks so, so much and please check back

in short, we have a recovery plan that I drafted based on MB (as noted above, I've taken on the heavy lifting of recovery) -- was the M that bad before the A -- no, not at all, in fact even during his A he would cry & say how much he missed me, etc, he just fell into the excitement of an A after a long-term committed R, a death in the family (a mini-MLC), a lot of alcohol (big problem) and my inability to give him all the attention he needed/craved at that time because I was facing my own health issue (so much for cherish, honor & forsake all other in sickness and in health) --

I have asked for MC and we attended briefly. I think H is still fog-bound, but I do not have the power to delay the D. I am willing to do what it takes, just not sure if I'm wasting my energy on an H that is unwilling/unable. Sigh... I'll post more later, just feel like I'm headed for doom either way.

"Based on your experience, what do you thik of a FWS that still speaks well of OP? Just leftover fog/common or an inability to understand the hurt caused by the A and help the BS heal? Thoughts?"

My opinion -- in defending her, he is defending himself and his choice to affair with her. It is a self defense mechanism, on the order of defending a choice you made (lets say the purchase of a car), become very disenchanted with, but had to defend in order to justify the choice, hold onto some pride, and never show any weakness about having done what you did. I'm not convinced it means he is still 'in love' with her or wants to be with her, just that he hasn't really come to grips with the awful mistake he made.

My H affaired with a MOW for 2.5 years. Now, when we 'talk' about it at times he is in tears apologizing for what he did, and at other times tries to justify what he got from her that he didn't get from me, why he did it, what was so wonderful about her (she didn't talk back like I do), and a whole host of other things that were great about her. I feel like a yoyo when this happens.

I think in defending her he is actually attempting to defend himself and his actions. He may feel very little for her at this point, but he will probably try to defend himself.

H Butterscotch

Tough gig there, girl.

Shouldn't I be the one who is providing the "list" of things I need to recover the M instead of vice versa?

You should have a considered and defendable set of criteria that when met would make you allow your WH back into your life and that would cause you to work on your M.

IME these shouldn't be 'gestures', they should be boundaries.

Mine? OK:

NC for ever
Transparency
Respect for me, our kids and the institution of our M.
Return my contribution to meeting ENs.

See ? no 'gestures' there like 'write OP a letter saying you were sh*t in bed anyway' etc.

You need to work out your inviolable list. Then you compromise these at your peril.


Bob -I think you've advised BS that they shoudn't discount the price to get back into their hearts -- do you feel compensated by your FWS? Can we ever?
I feel very strongly that we value things that are valuable. If diamonds cost dimes we would not value them so highly. To give cheap re-entry into our lives for an unrepentant WS is to devalue the currency of our live, care an dmarriage. And I fought very hard indeed for that, NO WAY am I going to discount it.

Do I feel compensated ? No . I so not thing a FWS can ever compensate for the knowing devastation of an affair. Thats why we muct forgive them if we are to recover. No, its NOT fair, but when Squid was clearly repentant my resentment was like a sack of foul rocks in my heart and I had to lay it down for my own sake.

Don't expet payment for the unpayable.

So I do not feel compensated BUT squid and I have a closer R than in years, we revel in the new tools we have learned 9 POJA, avoiding LBs, meeting ENS etc)and love each other very much indeed.

We both still hurt ovr the affair, but without a time machine I don;t see how we could be doing better than this after ten months. Its taken a LONG time but Squids working hard on herself and our M now.

Are there some WS who have a character flaw and are incapable of having a good M and some who just don't "get it" yet? How do I tell the difference? I really cannot go through the cruelty and betrayal again. Any thoughts/advice?

[b]There are lots of reasons people have affairs and I believe a character flaw exists in all 'infidels' to 'push them over the edge' when tempted. HOWEVER many or most repent and rejoin the marriage.

Some WS do appear to be incapable of change, or unwilling to make it.

The way I would test is to see how respectfully you are treated by him when your boundaries are in place.

If a WS knows what your boundaries are yet violates them time after time for their own purpose, such indicates that they are unlikely to put in the effort to be what you need then to be in your life.

Its your decision what you do. Only you know your boundaries and limits.

All blessings