I didn't Ark. I said that is the plan. That apart from operating in a marriage as God has designed it, that it is impossible to find this. Those that do follow God and what He has presented to us as the ideal is how we get there. Just look at what I posted..."As a matter of fact, if that were true, that couple would have to be living by what God has laid out for the roles of husbands and wives." See, I did say that those that were living by what God has commanded us to do have the hope of finding this kind of relationship.

I did not deny it...I actually affirmed it. And also said that in ourselves, it is an impossible goal. Husbands are commanded to love their wives as Christ loves the church. We do not have the power to do that, apart from Christ. But I can do all things thru Christ Jesus who strengthens me. Again Ark...please read what I have wrote, as I suspect that you are looking at it from a direction that I did not intend.

Sounds elementary to you...okay. But too many, especially men, this is not elementary. God did not put these commands in the Bible because they were unnecessary. What you as a woman believe is elementary may be somethig entirely different to a man. I know I am being very general here, but work with me a second. You know the old saying about men and directions? There is some truth to that. I have yet to meet a woman that will not stop to ask directions if she needs to. But most of us men have spent countless times lost because we refuse to get those directions. Why? Because we are hard headed (dont answer that Pep!!)? it has to do with the way we are built. We were made to be the leader, and a misguided supposition to that is that asking directions is not leading. Of course, once we learn that is not true...we get lost a lot less.

There are differences between men and women. Some things you gals do (and we will get into them in the women's part) seem to be no-duh to us guys. But they are major problems for you. Why? Because you are women and that is how you are built. We are different. God recognizes that and gives us instructions in how to deal with those differences.

Sure, the husband should want to be with his wife. But, let's say I have Super Bowl tickets. Big event. All the guys are going. Gonna be fun. My wife doesnt like footbal, so doesnt want to go. Two days before the Super Bowl, she has a major problem at work. she needs to get it fixed and it will take several days to do so. She needs my help.

Now, the no-duh thing to do is to tell the guys to sell my ticket and help my wife. And a good husband will do that. But to think that didnt hurt, that I wasnt upset by that is folly. where did I WANT to be at that moment? Of course...holding a beer and peanuts on the fifty yard line. But I sacrificed for the need of my wife.

This is the pain I speak of. The disappointments. We as husbands must ALWAYS put the well being of our wives ahead of us. And by the way...the wife has no such role...no such commandments. she is not commanded to love, as you will see in the next section. How wives meet the ENs outlined by Dr. Harly is entirely different then how we meet our wives' needs.

Again, Ark...I think you are misreading what I am saying. Of course, wives give things up all the time for their husbands. And that is disappointing too. But wives are not commanded to do so by God out of love...they are commanded to do so for a different set of reasons as you will see.

My two boys have learned something of this in my house. When we eat, my wife, my MIL and my daughter get served before the guys do. Last piece of cake? Gals get first dibs. They used to look at me like "Why does our sister get treated differently than us?" Answer. Because she is different than you. They are learning valuable lessons on how different men and women are, and what God expects. Thus, I suspect that one dy, they will treat their wives with the love that God expects. And my daughter? I hope and pray she finds a man that she marries that will love her in the same way...and treat her as she is supposed to e treated.

In His arms.

Almost done folks. Hang tight. You will start seeing the wife portion of this very soon!!

Hmmm. Too busy at work to give this the attention that it deserves. But it is an amazing dialog. - NCW

Sorry to keep you gals waiting...work got crazy the last two days!! But I promise that at least the first of the three will be up tonight!!

In His arms.

motarman..
I actually do keep reading this...and while I am not in disargreement with what you said..I am having a hard time connecting the dots of how one gets to such a marriage...
or even the coninueal work in progress..

my misunderstanding is that so much of this based on the necessity of pre-existing negative qualities/behaviors to have to exist in two people prior to getting married...and then be rectified post speaking of the vows....

while i understand the sanctifying as in setting apart...
I don't understand the example of changing a wife...as the way to sanctify her...

God not only wants us to be our wives’ savior, He wants us to be Her sanctifier. The word sanctification is one of those big words that basically means “to set apart as unique or special.” In the Bible many times, God took the vilest things and sanctified them for His own use. When a man sanctifies a woman, he sets her apart from her past.

Now, to express this point again…you cannot become a sanctifier until you become a savior. And saviors die! If you want to change your wife, if she is not submitting to you, if she is not living up to her side of the bargain…and you have seen all of your actions and endeavors to sanctify or change her go for naught…maybe it is because you are trying to be a sanctifier before being a savior. The goal of sanctification is to change something from what it is into what it ought to be. But until we men are ready to die (in other words…die to ourselves), then don’t expect our efforts to bring about change that works.

so for a husband to sanctify his wife he must change her???

he must ?? the husband??
and she MUST NEED changing????

and mortarman know that some of the global examples are unjust and present quit a negative of veiw women...be these your opinions or the people that taught this class drive me crazy...

all married woman must be changed..
must need changed
to recieve Gods blessings

these are extremely negative view of women and men....

They thought they were marrying this quiet person…she hasn’t stopped talking yet

He thought he was marrying a submissive woman…she started bossing him around right after the wedding.

sheesh do you really believe that men are that easily duped..

We men had a perspective on what we thought we were getting into and who we were getting into it with…only to be highly disappointed. Many men say “She’s changed.” Actually, what has happened is that she changed back. Back to what she was before she put on her best face for you while you were dating.

this is sooo degrading and stupifying women....as if we all convive and pretend while dating...then turn on men at the honey moon...in to some type slithering snake out to boss them....

and if this whole theory is based on that negative view of women as a reality...
that's what I don't understand and don't agree with...

so know I am not argueing with you to just argue...I just think this is presented with broad stereotypes..

and that while I may agree with premise of Gods desires...the examples of how this is to occur totally disregard people as having much worth... and turn both sexes in clodd-hopping snakey vile individuals....

I AM reading this
over and over and over...

ARK^^

I see what you are saying Ark, and I see the stereotypes, but I also read more into it. I do believe that after women and men get married, many do settle in, and things change...not that women change and become these snakes, but that you get comfortable, take things for granted, a new side comes out that perhaps the husband didn't expect?

I also truely believe that MANY women think with thier hearts and not with thier heads, just like MANY men think with their heads and not with their hearts, and I see these teachings by MM as working into those catagories.

I think what MM is trying to say is alot like what I am learning in my Celebrating Recovery.

here is a note of what I learned last night then I will get to my point lol

Insanty - Doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result each time.

Sanity - Wholeness of mind and making decisions based on truth.

When a Christian doesn't put their faith and trust in God first, and tries to solve their problems on their own - it leads to insanity. Chaos will follow. A Christian must trust God's plans, and let God help them solve the problems. God must come first.

What I see MM teaching is that men might be trying to be the Sanctifier first, before being his wife's savior first. In trying to be the sanctifier - he is trying to save his wife, "sanctify" her, change her, but he is doing so without being the savior first - the savior who puts unconditional love oh nis wife, the savior who would die for his wife. In doing that - he gets no result - you cannot change someone.

But in being the savior first- loving your wife for all her faults, not expecting her to change, then the sanctifier, changes will come on their own - maybe in your own ability to change and except your wife, as it was how God designed men and women.

This is what I am reading from it.

-ds

In trying to be the sanctifier - he is trying to save his wife, "sanctify" her, change her, but he is doing so without being the savior first - the savior who puts unconditional love oh nis wife, the savior who would die for his wife. In doing that - he gets no result - you cannot change someone.

But in being the savior first, then the sanctifier, changes will come on their own, as it was how God designed men and women.



so therefor God designed all women to need to be changed...

ARK

lol I see your point definately...

God designed us all to NOT be perfect. And God expects us all to change for Him. To walk in his ways, but he knows that that is tough for us - we are only Human.

I did re-edit my post before you posted as I too caught that I wrote that not in the best way. Except I spelt accept - except - I meant to say accept your wife....

I changed it to show that the change may come in the man - not the woman, as he is being the sanctifier - I think it depends on the couple, and who the man and woman are - on who needs to change the most to walk in God's ways.

We all have things we need to change. Not just us women <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MM

I remember starting a thread a lot like this one ... the subject was my feelings about what I had learned from the "Wild At Heart" book...

and this is what happened ...

the concepts that were so clear and meaningful to me (while I was reading the book) were very VERY VERY hard to convey to someone who had never read the book.

The term "hero" was taken the wrong way from the book's intented meaning (for example) ... I think, in part, because the literal meaning of certain words are cast aside and instead used to convey a spiritual message .... which is very VERY hard to communicate.

And, the premise is that there is a definite male/female separation of needs and duties which goes against the tide of current cultural thinking that men and women are interchangeable.

Anywho ... keep plugginh along.... this is interesting on many levels.

Pep

MM: Fascinating stuff. Even the misunderstandings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've been reading some similar stuff myself lately. Pepperband: I've been reading "Captivating" by John Eldredge and his wife Stasi. Very good, and I believe it covers a lot of the same ground as [email]W@H[/email], (and mortarman's postings, for that matter) but you're right. Some of the terminology is very specific and has a very different implied meaning than the usual everyday conversation meaning.

Especially key is that although "Adam" and "Eve" are called to reflect certain different aspects of the image of God to each other, they have to first go to God to get those corresponding needs met. For example, even though a husband is called to "save, sanctify and satisfy" his wife in Christ's place in the marriage, that doesn't generally work well until the wife has first gone to the Source--Christ himself--for those needs.

A wife provides certain needs to her husband as well as a reflection that she too, is made in the image of God (Gen 1:7) but again, he needs to go to God to get them met first.

Of course, that's JMO.

Well, thanks for keeping reading Ark! I will answer your questions specifically below. but this paragraph kind of sums it up, so let me give you a summary answer.

First off, all of us need to change. All of us. All of us need to be sanctified. We do not realize the end of that sanctification, those changes...until we reach Heaven. there is always more to change, more to fix. Always...with everyone! Salvation was a one time act, by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Sanctification is a lifetime process. Now, with that...let me answer your questions.

Ah...yes, and no. First off, sanctification is changing someone. From who they are to who they ought to be. And guess what? We will all fall short until we reach heaven. So, yes...sanctification of the wife involves her changing. God does much of this through a hierarchy. He changes all of us thru Jesus. Jesus sanctifies the husband in the family. The husband sanctifies the wife. This is a Biblical principle, one that God uses to accomplish His program, which is the ongoingness of the family.

Now, the "no." No, the husband is not repsonsible for changing his wife. He is responsible for doing the things that God tells Him to do that will bring about change in his wife. If he does that, then the responsibility for change rests on Christ. This was the HARDEST thing for me to realize i nthis mess of the A and my wife. I thought I was responsible for her changing, thus when it wasnt happening, it hit me hard. I couldnt make her change!!

But that wasnt my job. My job was to lead. To be her sanctifier, as I put in the study above, and nourish/cherish the changes that needed to be made. Not to issue orders or condemn wrong actions. but just to lovingly tell her the truth, and to provide as I listed i nthe study. And then...God takes over from there in taking what the husband has done, and changing his wife for the better.

Actually, the biggest job of sanctification as I outlined from the study is the role that the husband fills as pastor of his home. Go back and read that part. it is thru his spiritual leadership, that change comes to his wife. Many times ,tha tchange is blocked because the husband has refused to lead, to be the pastor in his home.


You seem to think I have a negative view of women. I do not. But what I have is a realistic view of mankind, where we are at and where we are going. We cannot achieve perfection until we reach Heaven. Until then, we must all change daily. There is not such thing as the PERFECT marriage. Never has been...never will be. What we aspire to cannot be reached. But what we do is move closer to it everyday thru change.

Now, it isnt just the wife that needs changing. The husband has to also. But the husband has a sanctifier...and that is Jesus. The husband is the head of the wife. Christ is the head of the husband. And God is the Head of Jesus. There is a heirarchy.

I just answered this above. Yes, she needs changing. So does the husband. but the wife is not responsible for the husband's changes. The husband is held by God to be responsible for the wife's though.

I do not care how mankind perverts the word of God. That is irrelevent. If they would do it God's way, this would not be happening.

All people MUST be changed...must be sanctified.And yes, the closer we come to God, the more sanctification (change), the more blessings. This is a very real, Biblical principle.


Not negative. Realistic. And Biblical. Remember, the Bible says that we are only worthy of destruction due to who we are and what we have done to God. And while negative, God says He loves us enough not to leave us there. Thus the process of sanctification...the process of change. For all men and women that will accept God's stewardship.

Sometimes. This was a generalization. Didnt mean to be negative. But this does hold true to varying extents in every marriage. You get in and then a few years later, realize it isnt what you thought it would be. The negatives (and everyone has them) that you glossed over while dating, are now irritants. Maybe not huge ones, but they are there. Again, I am not saying that every marriage is a battleground. What I am saying is that what happens while dating and the early part of the marriage is not the reality that will be in place later on. And it is at the point of realization of this reality that a marriage reaches a point where changes are made, or they begin to fall away. Again, even in a good marriage, there are problems. Not a negative view...just a true one.

Not degrading for women!! Look, the wives have the same complaint. When we dated each other, we didnt let it all hang out. We didnt show them all of the negatives. Why would we? We are trying to win that person over, to make a lifelong commitment to us. So, we accentuate the positives and try to cover over the negatives. That is a simple fact. If we understood this before marriage, we would have realized to be ready for the fact that once married, we will find out the rest of the story. Actually, we will spend a lifetime finding out the rest of the story. I heard fro ma couple that was married for 35 years that said that everyday, they still learn smething new about their partner.

Again, Ark...please do not take this so negatively. This battle we are talking about is a curse, as given to us in Genesis. And I will talk more about it in the women's section. Some are better at it than others. But better at it isnt perfection. We all have work to do. Which is the point of what I was saying. And with that work, God outlines exactly how to do that. With the husband, he must sanctifier her as outlined in the study above. The wife brings about change in a different way, as you will see.

Again, I covered this above. Not a negative view of women. A realistic view of BOTH men and women.

Oh, for sure. I will agree with that. But those stereotypes are based on something. Something real. mean and women are different. But we both share the same fallen state. To be sanctified, to be changed for the better, is a different process for men than it is for women. And vice versa. Actually, I wish that I had the wife's section out already because you will see that I am not beating up on women or singling them out.

Oh. no-no-no! Not worthless. Great worth!! Just like a diamond in the rough. But you dont leave the diamond there. You cut it, polish it. Make it what it was meant to be. Make it priceless. That is the process of sanctification for both men and women. And it is a life long process. Not a negative view, Ark. A positive view! One that says "here is this diamond that I just pulled out of the ground. A little dirty, got a few imperfections attached to it. But a diamond nonetheless. What I want to do is take it and make it more than it is now. It may take me hours or days to do so, and if the diamond could "feel," it would no doubt be painful sometimes. But in the end, it becomes what the diamond owner saw in it when he first picked it up.

God sees in us, not who we are...but who we can be if we are cut and polished correctly. Now that process doesnt take hours or days like a diamond. It takes a lifetime to get it right. All this study has shown in the section on sanctification is that God has a way of polishing diamonds. This is His method. And He holds those diamonds to great value. How much value?

Enough that the God of this Universe sent His only Son to die for those "diamonds." Now, how priceless are we?

In His arms

DS...well said!

All men and women need changing. For the state we were in, that we are in...is unacceptable to God.

DS, you hit exactly on it. And how the husband is changed? I will cover that in the wife's section tonight.

Pep, true!!! That is why I dont mind answering the questions, as I know it is hard to pick up sometimes thru the black and white of reading, some of the concepts that are presented i nthe full study...or in person.

Nicely said Java.

I am not saying people don't need to change in the eyes of God and in their journey on this earth struggling to be like Him..

I am not saying that men and women aren't different or promoting some ultra NOW nutty idealism that woman are equal...

I am struggling with examples that are broad and negatively stereo typical

I am struggling to see the advocating for the children who are now married themselves that came from parents that were well grounded in these principles...and therefor their own struggles are diminished...and for confirmation of God's blessing...or just warnings that something really bad must happen for the marriage to have value in God's eyes..

I am struggling to see the positive spin for marriages...for those that get married and six months down the road found the marriage to be even better they had imagined without being accused of be a liar and toting they have a perfect marriage...

I am struggling to see the benefits of raising your children to seek healthy God loving marriages if we approach this subject that so few and little even come close to glorifying God in their marriage...and that we should just assumes our children will have to suffer ...so what's the point...

good marriages have very little positive roles and value in our society...
for even when they do exist they are placed under much scrutiny and negativey....and viewed with much suspicion...

I really am starting to believe this...

ARK




I'ma
gonna haul out on this one...
I apologize for my posts...I should have just stayed quiet...
and now I will so as not to interfere with mortarmans post...

ARK^^

ark^^: Good points, all. I know a woman who was raised in a Godly home, and she and her husband actually, seriously, set about from the beginning to have a Godly marriage. They are a great example. They got it right from the start. But I do think that the vast majority of marriages don't have that benefit, and so they have to start where they are.

I'm reading MM's stuff here from the perspective of "it's never too late to start working towards a Godly marriage." With the clearly implied hope that Clark and I will achieve a Godly marriage, and hey, we're young, maybe live 50 or 60 years in that marriage, providing that exact good example you are talking about to our kids and other young 'uns.

Right Java!! Ark, dont go away. Your questions are relevent.

As Java said, it isnt that every marriage is bad. If a husband and wife "get it," and do it right...the point to all of this is that they wont have to go through most of what all of us have. For the rest of us, as java noted, it isnt too late to start!!

Look, if my wife were perfect, I wouldnt see the need for God in my marriage, would I? If I were perfect, then my wife wouldnt need to have Christ in our marriage either. Our need for Him comes when our partner let's us down or isnt up to snuff. And ALL marriages have this to varying degrees.

The sterotypes, while admittedly generalized, have merit in EVERY marriage. There are things that are uniquely feminine, uniquely a woman. And every man has had those times where we are frustrated, or just a little perplexed, at some of those things. Understanding how a woman thinks, how she feels, what motivates her as a woman...is key to understanding our roles as a husband. Same goes for a wife.

Not every woman is as bad as all that. But every woman has attributes that a man must learn to understand. Just like in that study above, I posted about men not listening, and wanting to jump in and solve a problem for them. That is a GREAT example of the differences. We men dont need to hear all of that. We hear the problem and go solve it. Women are a little different from that. While wanting to solve the problem, they want to be able to express. Women dont understand why we dont get that. Well, duuuhhhhh...we are men! Men dont understand why women need all of that. Well, ddduuuhhhh...they are women. Two different beings. And not just with the plumbing.

Ark, you are correct in what you are saying. Our goal is to have that kind of marriage that follows what God has laid down and is an example to our children. it is then that we get that so-called perfect marriage. But even in that marriage, change still needs to take place. Growth, learning, understanding. Sanctification.

And in that sanctification, God has decided that the wife will be sanctified through her husband. So, the changes that God thinks my wife needs, if I am listening to Jesus and I have died for her (a savior), He will let me know what they are and how I am to be involved in helping those changes to come about. But if I do not cooperate, I do not listen...then when those changes dont happen...God holds me responsible!! If I follow His lead, then He takes care of the rest.

As you will see, the wife's role in providing for change in the husband is much different. She is not responsible for that change. But she can be responsible for blocking that change, as you will see in the next three sections.

One note for everyone here...this relationship that God talks about only applies between a husband and a wife. The husband is the head of the wife. The guy down the street isnt. The guy at work that works for you ladies isnt. You are equal to them in every way. But in the family, while you are equal to your husband and are a partner, God has set up a chain of command, as you will see.

Dont run away Ark!! I think you get it. Just dont see this as all negative. As Java said, some of this is for those that have marriages that 180 degrees opposite of what God requires. Some are following His path already, and can use this to make sure that they continue to do so!!

In His arms.

Mortarman,

What do you do for a living? lol

You have wisdom like my father does. I e-mailed him your teachings on the man's role and this was his responce - as I know he loves to hear everyone's teachings on Christ.

"Hi darling daughter:

Over the last two days, I've read what you sent me and would say that I have little argument with it, other than the calling onesself a wife's savior. That makes me uncomfortable. In all things we are to die to self but that hardly make's me or you a savior, however it does make us a leaders by example. Other than that, what he said was truth. Reading expostions such as these are good for me as it reminds me of my weeknesses. I then spend various amounts of time meditating about it, but not too long.

If I start focusing on the rules, I will then try to follow the "rules" and end up trying to become more Christ-like as a rule keeper within my own strength and ending up captive to the old me rather living life with freedom in Christ.

When I learn or re-visit truth, my first action is to pray that the God will open my heart to receive it, that He will teach me to listen to Him when guides me and then to get on with my life with the expectation that the preceding will happen. When I fail as I always do in just about every area, God brings to mind what I learned before or shows me through many different means new or expanded truth, I repent and on we go together again.

As I mature in Godly living, the good things that God does through me have started to out number the worldy good things that are of no eternal value and the just plain bad things.

I'm sure you already knew all of the above, but you know I like to hear myself talk anyway.

I love you.

Dad"