It makes me sad that you feel like you have to give me a watered-down version of yourself. I've never felt offended by you. I have to admit to not getting some of your jokes. The April Fool's thing wasn't funny to me because I seriously look for your posts and wanted you to be you. I think it might be more of a cultural difference than me feeling wounded like in the other situation.

You really helped me, PEP, and continue to help me. Why do have a problem with me looking to you for assistance?

I wish I could be more light-hearted like you and have grown more in that direction by reading your posts here. If you don't post to me, how can I REALLY continue to learn from you?

It's a major loss for me... Just wanted you to know that.....

You communicated clearly where your boundaries are Mimi. You told me where you felt wounded by me(your word). I choose to honor your position. This really is OK Mimi.

Pep

Hey Mimi,

Here is a thought i wanted to share with you. Please know, I type this with the sincere intent to help you.

I have found that a person, (any person, not just you) can read the same words and "hear" something different based on how they are doing at the time of the reading. I have found for myself personally, it that while i read here, i choose to "listen" with assumption that everything written here is meant to be constructive, it really helps. so when i read words, i do not add any inflection (especially negative) to the words, i look for any constructive msg that i can find. it's not always easy, trust me, i know its not always easy. however, there is something very important that can be learned here...

i also find that if i do feel the strong urge to call someone out about something they post, i focus on first why the words they wrote have impacted me as they did and then when i write about it, i try to make it as clear as possible that i am truely seeking understanding.

it's not always easy, sometimes i will have a knee jerk reaction and be bothered by something i read. since this is not a face to face thing, i can choose at that time to simply close the window and take some time before responding. it is during that time that i try to understand what in me made that particular post negatively impact me.

i have found that i have learned a lot about understanding and subsequently owning ones own reaction to stimulus. and this is a really empowering thing to learn. because it has given me the ability to have more control over how i am doing internally.

i hope this all made sense and might be helpful to you.

Karen

Mimi ... marriage recovery ~and~ personal recovery after the 2-way-trauma of an A is not clean, it's not nice, and it sure as heck ain't pretty.

It's guts blood sweat and tears ... and it's REAL painful.

It takes courage to remain in the conversation when things are highly uncomfortable and triggers fly every which way.

If you cut and run here when things are making you uncomfortable and cause you pain ... there may be a problem when you have to face to face come to grips with the very real communication issues in your personal life.

Stand your ground and say your say .... here and at home. Don't run and hide just because you feel weird, or wounded, or angry ... stick it out. Tough stuff no kidding. But you can do it.

Pep

Thanks, Karen. I will reply to you soon.

PEP:

It seems like you are open to helping me with this. Do you think it would be helpful to copy the posts that I think were PERSONAL ATTACKS?

NO

I think you need to take the blow and then move on ... taking whatever lesson learned with you

Pep

And to quote a wise person that once said something similar to this...look for kernels of truth in the criticism (personal blows/attacks?) and see what you can learn from them.

Susan

which means it might be a good idea for you to re-look at the post that you felt were personal attacks and see if you can look at them in a different light now.

I reread the posts. I do not feel like the attempt was to be helpful to CC or to me. Maybe I shouldn't make the assumption that one should have that as a goal for posting. It's the sense of a person wanting to "stir up" crisis and drama unnessecarily. There definitely was underlying hostility and sarcasm.

Thanks to ALL that responded to me today. Going to the gym to work some of this out! WHEW!

Mimi, I want to share a couple (or few) things with you. First off, my pulse was racing last night when I posted to you on the thread for LM. Why? Because, lately, it doesn't seem how I word my posts (when they are not in direct allignment with yours, IMO), you seem to think it is something personal against you, and your MB beliefs.

I understand that you have couseled directly with the Harley's, and I haven't. I have read their books, I have read this site and its information (not just the discussion forums), and I have been to 8 months of MC with my H. The information I share contains bits of all of that stuff.

Anyway, back to last night. I was afraid to "question" your post to LM. And, you know what??? Until about 9 months ago, I probably wouldn't have posted to you. What changed? Pep. Yep, it was Pep (we should make that a saying). I remember once MelodyLane and Suzet were "disagreeing" about something . . . I don't even remember what. And neither of them are conflict avoiders, I tell you!

I was having soooo much anxiety, because I love both these ladies, and I just wanted "everyone to get along!" And I posted such a thing on their thread. And Pep came on that thread, and told me that it is OK that everyone doesn't get along. It is OK that these two people I like might not really like each other, or respect each other's opinions. And she questioned why THEIR issue, was such a big issue to me.

Am I a sensative person? Yes. Is that why it probably bothered me? Yes. SHOULD it have bothered me? I don't think so. I realized that growth and change "feel" uncomfortable. When my kids wake up in the middle of the night crying because their feet are hurting, it is because they are growing so fast, it hurts! Literally!! My H and I and our M grew so much from his A, and it hurt! The worst hurt I've ever had.

And I could have taken that hurt, and laid down with it, and nurtured it, and held onto it tightly. Instead, I chose to learn from it, and use it, and begin to let it go.

See, from MY POV, LM didn't say or do anything that I felt warranted your thread. Which isn't to say you shouldn't have written the thread. Mine was just to point out to you, that from another person's POV, your comments seemed . . . strange.

For instance, you talked about this "private" communication you were having, based on emails we were not privy to. You say you kept it on the boards so that "someone could read it and learn from it." Well, if it is so open to miscommunication, because of the missing information, that LM might have totally misinterpreted (or I might have misinterpreted) the tone of the post, then perhaps the conversation should 1)be kept private, or 2)the missing information should be copied and pasted into the thread.

I was so concerned with upsetting you last night, I was literally shaking when I posted that, and my heart was racing. I kept looking, with one eye closed, to see if you had responded. Because like I said earlier, it seems to me, that no matter how I word something to you, you take it all SO PERSONALLY.

After reading all 3 or 4 of your threads from today, the BEST thing I have heard was ~ When you think something is sarcastic or mean, ASK if that was the poster's intention. If someone is being rude on purpose, my experience here is that they will continue to be rude when asked directly. However, asking will give the person room to clarify, if they feel you have "heard" them wrong (so easy to do with this 2-dimentional communication. Didn't someone say 80% of communication is subtle nuances and tone? We have neither of those here), or at least the opportunity to know how their words have affected you.

You also said that when you feel someone is being mean or sarcastic, it makes you feel angry. I thought that was very interesting. Not what I expected to read.

Anyway, peace to you, Mimi. I love ya, I respect ya, and I hope you can come to a place that you feel comfortable in.

Spidey

Spidey, you said:


I'm sorry. I don't recall disagreeing with you or taking you personally.

You said this:


Spidey, I'm really trying to learn from this? I'm not insulted now. I think I'm hypersensitive. Why shouldn't this bother me for you to use the word "strange"? That makes me feel like you are saying that I sound "crazy"because I didn't see it your way. Really, it's something about him. Everyone I guess doesn't have to like each other. I have a problem with how he says things. I've read over his posts and continue to have a problem with them.

I still say that regardless of the nature of my posts to CC he had no right to be sarcastic with me or to question me without doing so directly. I find that to be underhanded. I don't like that.

Rather than doing that,
WHY DID HE NOT TRY TO HELP CC RATHER THAN FOCUS ON WHAT I WAS SAYING TO HER?

What I am saying is , I feel comfortable with directness like you are doing now.

Spidey you said


Why do you find this interesting and unexpected?

You said:



I feel COMFORTABLE, really......

Oh good.



I don't know. I guess when I think of my own sensitivity in the past, when I have felt someone was being mean or sarcastic on pupose with me (in a way I felt attacked), my first inclination is to shrink away, not get angry. I guess I just thought that most sensitive people were put off by that type of negative energy, like had an opposite reaction to it. You seem to get angry when you feel attacked.

And the word strange to me, means strange. Means, I was baffled, I didn't understand, I thought "This does not compute." If I thought you were acting crazy, I would have said "Mimi, you are acting crazy!"

The posts I was referring to, between you and I, were the ones we have had about the SF issue while in Plan A. Both to Caren, and not_so. These posts, beginning with Caren's, were the ones I first began feeling that you were taking my POV as a personal attack on your MB beliefs ~ because my beliefs on the issue are in direct conflict with yours.

I truly don't think there is a "one size, fits all" in ANYthing (most of all bathrobes). I think everyone here benefits from hearing all personal experiences, both for decision-making purposes and for support.

Rather than giving your experience and information, and letting me give mine, in both instances I felt that you were trying to "prove" that your way was the only way and the best way.

That was MY perspective of our exchanges.

Spidey

Mimi, I'm not all that sure that LM was being sarcastic to you. Again, why not just ask him? "Lemonman, are you trying to be sarcastic or what?"

Mimi & SS: I don't know if you've followed my thread, but I've been crapped on and disrespected by a whole community, because of the A. These are people I cared about and gave energy to.

What I learned: I don't give a monkey's what people think of me anymore. If people I cared for did that to me -- well, why should I care what they think of me? They are morally bankrupt. I think so much the less of them. To try to impress them or gain their good opinion seems like a waste of time.

So much "sensitivity" is wanting others to like us or approve of us. Once you stop giving a hoot, it's all so much easier. Just blow it away. I hope you don't have to go where I did to come to this -- but it's enormously liberating.

I know! Before my H's A, I spent so much time trying to control people's perceptions of me. After his A, it seemed like so much wasted, lost energy and time. So unimportant.

However, YOU are talking about . . .


Isn't EXACTLY what we are talking about. First off, most of the people who seek out a Marriage Building site are not morally bankrupt (most). There are several posters here who I DO care what they think of my posts. Not really me as a person, because on these boards, I think it takes a LONG time to really know someone.

But if I am way off in a post, and someone I respect comes and is mean, or disrespectful, it does hurt my feelings. However, instead of running or ignoring as I used to, taking it all into myself, taking it personally, I ask for clarification. If it is more of the same, I will either 1)defend my post after hearing their thoughts, or 2)acknowledge that I was way off, and explain myself.

I do understand what you are saying, AM, and I do appreciate it, because I have also learned that hard lesson. Which is one reason I have dedicated the Christina Agulara song "Fighter" to the OW, who was also my Former Best Friend. "Thanks for making me stronger, wiser, made my skin a little bit thicker, thanks for making me a fighter!"

Because until my H's A, I didn't know I had it in me!

Spidey <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Isn't there a new feature on the MB Website that allows posters that one specifically identifies to not be viewed? Instead of this bickering, wouldn't the more appropriate action to take would be Mimi blocking LM's posts? I read his posts and saw no sarcasm but if I had and was offended, I would just placed him on ignore and moved on. This seems awfully childish.

SS, Someone once said to a group of people: "It matters very little what I think of you. It matters even less what you think I think of you."

PEP:

Yesterday you said:



THANK YOU FOR DECIDING NOT TO LIMIT YOURSELF! I really learned and profitted from your feedback to me yesterday. I can handle whatever you say since I MATURED A ZILLION YEARS YESTERDAY! Stood right up to my demanding 18 y.o. yesterday evening in an assertive way.

The thing is, as I said before, I either want to RUN AWAY or GO FOR THE JUGULAR when I get angry. With LM, I went for the jugular. Feelings just are. I was angry regardless if other people may not be able to understand the reason for my response. It came out of my own experience for many different reasons and was REAL for me.

Thanks again to ALL OF YOU that responded.

LEARNIN' AND GROWIN'

SPIDEY:

I've really learned from all of this. I plan to process this, take what I have grasped and then move on. However, I wanted to respond to you. I appreciate you taking up so much time with me and finding the courage as you say to respond to me. I can empathize with your anxiety. I feel fear a lot and have to work through it.

WHEN I FEEL ATTACKED:

I either run away or go for the jugular. I'm working on finding the middle ground. I think they call that "ANGER MANAGEMENT". I realize now that LM got the jugular response. My jugular response can be extreme. If you read through my hx. here, I tried to assault my FWH during my 2nd D-DAY. It wasn't pretty. So it is a pattern that I need to work on for sure.....

Last night I recalled that we communicated about the SF issue. I don't remember you specifically but I do remember feeling personally attacked by LM on that. I AM NOT CALLING HIM OUT! That's honestly how I felt because rather than seeming to try to UNDERSTAND my POV or why I HAD to do that folks seemed to feel that I was advocating putting others in danger. In my view, my frame of reference was not being understood or listened to in that discussion. It was what I HAD TO DO! I must not have been communicating clearly. I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT I AM ALWAYS RIGHT AND THAT I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!

You said:



It's funny that you say this because this is how I view LM especially on the SF issue.

I will play close attention to making sure that I don't come across this way if I do. I don't want to give that impression at all.

Mimi, it's actually more than just funny. I have seen this over and over again in MY own personal journey for growth. Usually, when someone rubs me the wrong way, it is because they are demonstrating a trait or characteristic that I have, but I don't like in myself.

You know the saying "It takes one to know one?"

Anyway, something to think about. Only you know.

Spidey