It is almost 7 years since I realized H was probably having an emotional affair with Cafe Woman, and about 4 years since he finally quit going to her restaurant for his "fix". Over time, I have come to believe that it was likely a one-sided thing on his part, and that she just considered them to be friends...and backed off from the friendship once she realized how I felt. She has remarried to a nice guy, and has sold her restaurant. We haven't seen her and her H since around Christmas.

Now, for the foggism from H...

The other day, we were on our way to the funeral home for the viewing/visitation. H doesn't smoke, and I generally don't smoke in his truck (yeah, I know I should quit!), although his friends do smoke in his truck. The only exception for me is when we are about to get somewhere where I can't smoke, and I would like a cigarette. At that point, I will ask him to unlock my window, and he usually complies.

This time, he very snippily asked, "Why do you disrespect me by smoking in my truck?' I was somewhat taken aback, since his friends DO smoke in his truck, but said, "I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful to you. I'll wait." He kept on and on about how disrespectful I am to him.

Finally, I said, "Well, I think we both may have a problem with being disrespectful to each other."

H: "What do you mean? I'm not disrespectful to you!"

Me: "Well, the other night, you told me to 'shut up' in front of our friends." (He was telling an inappropriate story in front of friends' 14yo daughter, and I said, "H?" and then, "H? Remember who's here.", at which point he told me to shut up.)

H: (Now, here is the foggism.) "G__D____! There is just no way I can please you!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Me: "I'm supposed to be pleased when you tell me to 'shut up'?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I was finally able to let him know that if he ever tells me to "shut up" again, I will leave the situation...no matter where we are.

LC

ladyclueless...

Though hard to break old patterns here's an objective look at this interaction with ways you could have chosen to address this issue differently....

I don't think your husband was communicating foggism..
I think he was communicating an actual opinion of his...

Why do you disrespect me by smoking in my truck?' I was somewhat taken aback, since his friends DO smoke in his truck, but said, "I wasn't meaning to be disrespectful to you. I'll wait." He kept on and on about how disrespectful I am to him.

This was a good time to explore what HE is communicating to you....
and though it is much easier to engage in these type of issues with our spouses by retorting back at them for things...they do/have done..it's not the best time usually..
in the end it becomes a tit-for-tat exercise in futility...

your husbands communication of not wanting you to smoke in his car...is either a legitimate request or not...and that's the issue you should deal with...

the fact that his friends are "allowed" to smoke in his truck our irrelevant to his feelings about YOUR smoking in his truck..

he doesn't love his friends.
he loves you....
and like most of us we all hold our spouse to higher personal requests than our friends....

bringing up in this moment in time his infractions will be viewed only as knee jerk reactions to his request...

you stopped listening to him while your mind formed your rebuttal....

and he feels you stopped listening because the issue at hand was not some thing that happened in the past...the issue was you smoking in the truck..

please don't think I am dismissing his innapropriateness in him telling you to shutup....
I am not...

I am trying to point out the break down in either of you hearing the other....

if you look at this differently......he brings up some act that he has a problem with...but the conversation ends with him being admonished and you setting a boundary on HIS behavior when the original theme of this was YOUR behavior...

this type of futile rebuttaling and reverse accusation serves neither well in the long run...

Do you think his request to not smoke in his truck is something you can accomodate...
can you meet this need....

He probably didn't come out of this interaction feeling like he was valued or heard....

look at the value of thanking him for his request...
look at the value of being able to meet this need
look at the value of communicating back that you heard what he said....

It's all about finding new ways to deal with conflict, requests etc...

ARK^^

Ark,

He had never asked me not to smoke in his truck before, and I generally don't, simply because he doesn't smoke and I don't usually smoke in a confined space with a non-smoker. The thing about his friends smoking in his truck was not even brought up. The only reason I mentioned that here is because I didn't realize he would have such a strong objection, since he apparently doesn't mind his friends smoking in his truck.

When he asked me why I was disrespecting him, I did NOT light up, but said that I'd wait. I was not mad, nor was I upset.

That wasn't good enough. He kept on and on and on. Am I supposed to be harangued and berated over and over, especially when I have willingly and agreeably complied with his wishes? H can go on for hours...NO JOKE!

I was not arguing with him, although I did make one comment that I understood how he felt and that it was fine with me that I not smoke in his truck.

Then, he started with, "Go ahead. Light up. I want you to smoke." Then, he rolled the window all the way down, blowing my hair all over the place. I told him, no, that I didn't mind not smoking.

He was really getting nasty; and, after about 10 minutes of listening to this, I was near tears.

I was feeling pretty darned disrespected myself (AGAIN!), so that is when I said that I thought we both had a problem with being disrespectful to each other.

And, for what it's worth, the "I feel" statements do NOT WORK with my H! He will always come back with an "I feel worse" sort of statement. ALWAYS!

So, Ark, why should my H feel he was not heard? I pleasantly agreed with him and did not smoke in his truck.
My behavior was no longer an issue, IMHO.

His behavior DID then become an issue. I cannot tolerate his continued ranting and raving about something that I HAVE CORRECTED without feeling emotionally beaten up. It physically drains me.

So, what was I supposed to do or say? Was I supposed to just sit there and keep saying, "I'm sorry for WANTING to smoke in your truck."?

I am tired of being emotionally and verbally abused, but WHAT am I supposed to say in response to him? I can't stop in the middle of a situation and run here to check out what I should say. I think I have made giant strides in trying to respond to him calmly and politely, but it always seems to be wrong.

So, what was I supposed to do or say? Was I supposed to just sit there and keep saying, "I'm sorry for WANTING to smoke in your truck."?

Personally I wouldn't have said another word.
I would have gone to the funeral home
payed my respects
and called someone or a cab to go home

I wouldn't ride in a truck with a verbally abusive person...
ever..I would drive myself from now on where-ever I was going....

I wouldn't waste a second my life powerstuggling with someone as you describe...

you shouldn't either...

ARK^^

LC,

It is often easy to know how to react after the fact. How to react during a heated incident is another matter. So it may be wise to anticipate this happening again. If so, how do you plan to react? Will it be in a way that will help calm both parties and give a valuable lesson?

Even our spouses can still learn lessons in life. When my H was coming down out of the A and his anger would flare, that is what I tackled head on. While I did not make the actual issue as big of a deal as rightfully could have, I learned to difuse his anger and then deal with the issue.

Our convos went something like this before and after:
BEFORE:
WS (angrily): L, you need to stop working so hard (note: As he lazies around and greats more work by his clutter around the house). Just leave this stuff alone (I couldn't it was growning - his mess).

L: Yea well if you'd stop making so much mess and put your stuff away, maybe I could find time to relax a bit.

WS(more anger): I put stuff away.

L: So you take out 10 items a day and put back 3 one day and 5 the next 2 days. After those 3 days you have now taken out 30 items and put back 13. Now there are 17 more items you leave lying around for who to put away?? Me.

WS: (walks away in a huff).

AFTER:

WS (angrily): L, you need to stop working so hard (note: As he lazies around and greats more work by his clutter around the house). Just leave this stuff alone (I couldn't it was growning - his mess).

L: U R right, I want to stop working so hard also. Who do you think is making all this extra work for me?

WS: I don't know.

L: Really? Hm..... Well if you don't know and you sound too angry to continue this discussion, maybe I'd better leave for the moment. When you calm down a bit, I'd like to your opinion. Right now I have to go clean up this mess that was made by this 'unknown' person.

At that point, I would leave. It was left unresolved to an extent but I realized having a reasonable conversation with him at that point was futile so at a later time I would pick up and say:

L: Hey H, got a moment? I have a question.

H: Ok

L: Remember that convo we had?

H: No. What convo?

L: Well I was wondering if you ever figured out who that mess maker was.

H: Oh, well you know.

L: Yes I certainly have an idea but can you confirm it for me? I know I do some and so does son but there seems t/b a bigger culprit.

H: Well I guess it's me. But I do put things away.

L: U do and thanks for doing that but it doesn't cover all you do. You want to know my take on it?

H: (cautiously nods).

L: I realize you put 'some' things away but here's my delemea. Let's say you take out 10 items a day but for each day put back 4 items each day. At the end of 1 week you will have taken out 70 items and put back 28. That leaves 42 items left out for us to trip on, clutter up the counter, the dining table, living room, etc. (long pause at this point since I want those #s to sink in).

If we each did this, cna you imagine whose house this would look like? (Hm...... he knows whose house I am referring to - MIL).

H: Well son leaves stuff out and so do you.

L: Yes you are correct so please let us know when we fail to put our things away but then we should all expect each other to take care of our own things at the very least, right?

H: Yea, I guess.

L: Thanks for taking the time to let me vent.

I walk away at this piont. I difuse the anger when it arose and then handle it another time. I save these for my bigger issues but in time we have developed the ability to deal with even lessor issues the first time and his angerlevel has gone down.

My point is that when I difuse the anger, I let him know that his anger is known and I do not appreciate it. It isn't an opinion, it is a fact. I am not asking 'if he is angry', I let him know I know he is angry and refuse to deal with the issue.

This has helped me from getting to tears because in my case by the time I get to the tears, my anger is right behind at the boiling point and when I look for a way to end stuff, it usually is permanent. Since I am NOT a conflict avoider but ma a giver by nature......my saturation level used t/b quite high and the H and WS personalities took advantage of it.

That piece has been reduced. I no longer suck it up and hide it. Instead I pick and choose my battles and save those confrontations for a time I choose.

It may put the WS or spouse a bit on the defensive and make then wonder 'when is L gonna talk about that issue'? But I'd rather let him wonder than me stress.

My normal character is deal with all issues ASAP as much as possible. So for me to hold off and deal with it after his anger has been difused is quite a challenge for me and this is what I am working on. So I have changed my method of handling his anger.

Seems t/b working.

L.

Well, after I said, "I'm supposed to be pleased when you tell me to 'shut up'?", he did stop, and nothing more was said during the trip.

After we got to the funeral home, I remained distant and separated myself from him while there. He sought me out..putting his arm around my shoulder and taking my hand. I did not reject his efforts, but I still didn't feel like being lovey-dovey. We went to our friends' home after the visitation, and he has acted as if nothing ever happened ever since.

Ark, I've been considering taking my own truck whenever we go somewhere. That will cause another fight, I suppose, about wasting fuel, as we usually drive about 30 miles to visit our friends. Failing that, I suppose I could just have a set of keys made for his truck, so I can just leave and let him figure out how to get home.

I have another issue with him that I have not yet addressed.
Lately, I've noticed that whenever any guy says something about getting "b****ed at" by their wives, I've heard my H say, "Yeah, I get b****ed at first thing in the morning, b****ed at all day, and b****ed at until I go to bed."

NOT TRUE! I rarely complain to him about anything, since it will generally lead to a fight, and I try to pick my hills to die on.

My H gets a hug and a kiss when I get up, affection throughout the day/evening, and a kiss/snuggle/sf at bedtime. We really don't get into disagreements often.

So, what should I say when my H says this? When should I say it? I suppose that if I take my own vehicle everywhere we go, I could just get up and leave. Or, I could just leave in his truck.

So, Ark and Orchid, what should I do?

this is not fog behavior this is unnaceptable treatment of a spouse, a partner, a team, a person whom you are to be cherished by in action......

ladyclueless...

you need to find your boundary and quit accepting intolerable treatment in YOUR world...period.

long term big picture goal is a marriage in which telling someone to shutup...or having such futile queer arguements are NOT the norm but the abnormal...

will he be that kind of spouse..
no one knows...it lays soley upon his choice as to what type of spouse he chooses to be...

but there also lies your choice as to what type of treatment is intolerable....
and to what type of spouse and treatment you are willing to expose yourself to...

would you date someone that treats you this way
would you choose to go out somewhere with someone who treats you this way..

I would not....

Ark, I've been considering taking my own truck whenever we go somewhere. That will cause another fight,

this is not about causing another fight..because you are not going to fight about this...this is your boundary...and if he doesn't like the fact that you aren't going to go somewhere with someone that is so verbally cruel, too bad...


is he ever physically aggressive with you??

time for you to quit all relationship talk with someone who so readily and willingly devalues you rather than protecting you...

and time to put in to action boundaries that remove you from intolerable behavior..

and no I would not take "his" truck...take YOUR car.. be responsible for YOU....
if you take his truck then it will just spin off in to a 'how could you do that to me" smoke filled deflection tatic...

take your own car

how else do you see this changing ?
what do you think you should do...?

ark^^

So if a person is convicted of a crime that he didn't do, can he do it and not be charged again?

When the WS used to throw those false accusations against me, my response was....

L: Ok, WS you really want me to act that way? Gonna be a challenge but it that is what you want, then I will certainly give it a try.

Now if that don't send a WS into a tail spin, I don't know what will. U C the WS never wants a BS to agree with them. Nope...... so when the BS does and it is in the WS favor, that distorted looks plasters on their face and if you watch closely the more difigured they get the more you can tell you have a WS around and not your H. That was also my measuring tool. A few times I had to cup my hand over my mouth to keep from laughing. LOL!!!

L.

Ark, I realize that I've made my H seem like a monster, but he really does not act like this all the time. No, he is not physical with me. Only a very few times has anything physical happened, and I'm ashamed to admit that I'm the one who struck first. That will not happen again, as I now leave when my frustration level is getting close to that point.

Yes, he is hyper-sensitive to even the slightest hint that he perceives as criticism. He goes on the offensive and aims for the gut when angered. It is because of this that I have withdrawn to the point where I cannot/will not tell him about things other than our relationship that have hurt me. And, he knows this now. I was finally able to tell him, a while back, that the reason I didn't "talk" with him the way I used to is because I do not feel safe doing so. He asked for some examples, and I gave them to him. He did later come to me and apologize; he actually acknowledged that he remembered the arguments when he had brought up things that he knew would hurt me.

Yes, he has this "macho attitude" and what seems, to me, to be a fear of being considered "p**** whipped". I HATE that term, and have actually started voicing my dislike of it whenever I hear it. Usually, when some guy says it about another guy, I just say something like, "Why would you think that about him? Maybe he enjoys doing things that his wife asks him to do because he loves her so much, and I'm sure she must do the same for him. What's wrong with that?" And, come to think of it, H hasn't used that term in a LONG time, now! So, that's good!

It would be a good idea to take my own vehicle when we go somewhere, but I'm not sure it will always happen. We are married, and we should go places together. So...what I will do if we are somewhere, with only one vehicle between us, and he says something I consider abusive toward me is really quite simple: I will remove myself from him as much as I am able. For instance, at our friends', we will often sit out in the garage with them while they smoke. I can either go inside or to the back patio. I can keep my cellphone with me so if it gets really bad, I can call our daughter to come get me. I could call our son, but Son is likely to get into a fight with his dad. Son knows exactly how his dad is.

Yes, H does have his moments where his behavior is atrocious, but they are far fewer and less severe than they used to be. He is not a cruel man, even if his words can be cruel at times. He is actually a very good man, but he does have issues...that he doesn't seem to be able to deal with very well. I've figured out where some of these issues originated, but I know that he needs to figure that out for himself. Of course, though, since he says he doesn't have any issues, there's nothing for him to figure out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />


Orchid,

So, if my H says, "Yeah, I get b****ed at first thing in the morning until the last thing at night." I should do some babbling? Actually, I had kinda thought about saying something along these lines:

Me: "Really? I'm not gonna put up with somebody b****ing at MY H! Who are they? Just let me go tell THEM a thing or two!"

or

Me: "Oh, my! I'm so sorry! Oh, honey, I didn't realize that giving you a hug and a kiss first thing in the morning and last thing at night was b****ing! Why didn't you tell me? I'll have to stop doing that right away!"

Your idea sounds better, though!

I just edited this post because it had too much "stuff" in it!

Oh LC, Ws' aren't that sensative. They just pretend t/b. I resorted to protecting me and not minding if the WS got blasted along the way. Why? Because I really don't give a hoot about the WS, just my H and when I tell him there's a difference then show it by my actions, he understands and that foolish WS behavior goes back in the can. LOL!!!

Bash away!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

L.