I think my intentions right now are complete, radical honesty from my end, with the desire 2 separate soon and amicably divorce if she isn't immediately willing 2 end contact with RM.

I'd also like, right now, 2 draft a NC letter, post it here for feedback, add particulars for the sitch offline, and email that 2 her for comment when she gets home 2night.

-ol' 2long

If I remember correctly, your WW is rather cynical about marriage as most of us define/understand it here at MB.

She doesn't of hasn't bought into monogamy...unless she just has a double standard. She is a left over of the 'love the one your with' mentality. I am the same age as you are 2long. I've BTDT. It seems your WW never progressed past that era except that she agreed to marry you in the first place. It is one thing to believe it can work and another to actually live it. (maybe this is a bit off topic..)

I saw an interview with Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell, here's a bit of it:
------------------------------------------------------------
Wildly successful playing the stereotype, she’s anything but that off-screen. Her 22 years with the same man, actor Kurt Russell, is an eternity by Hollywood standards. And together, they have raised four well-adjusted kids. But they’ve never married. Why?

"It's not as if we didn't talk about it. We talked about it a lot," says Russell. "And the bottom line of it was, neither one us really cared. In that regard, Goldie and I don't have much truck with society. We live outside of society to a large degree."

Adds Russell: "There's a lot about society I just don't give a s--- about, and neither does she. We just don't care."

The secret to their successful relationship is not the norm either. Theirs is an open-door policy.

"For instance, I don't like the idea of somebody closing a door and saying, 'You can't walk out the door.' I don't like that feeling," says Hawn. "Now, if somebody keeps the door open, I could be a bird in that cage forever and never fly out."

"And if you have a girl who says that, then you don't cheat," says Russell. "I mean, if you have a woman who does feel that way, and you meet them, I gotta tell ya, it's pretty exhilarating."

"Open marriage?" asks Wallace.

"Doesn't work," says Hawn. "Open marriage does not work. It's a great concept."

"You've tried it?" asks Wallace.

"Early in the '70s, it was a big deal about having relationships that way. And I can't say we tried it," says Hawn. "But in my first marriage, I think there was sort of -- we discussed it. Ultimately, human nature doesn’t let it happen."
------------------------------------------------------------
(by the way, I think that it is sad that Goldie Hawn needed to remain unmarried to feel free to commit to Kurt...pretty messed up to me)

I think your WW would have really liked, (at least her idea of) the one sided open marriage idea to work. She seems to only thrive in her secret second life; she seems to feel so entitled to it. Maybe as Pep stated back on page 2 of this thread that your WW self medicates with OM-RM.

well let's see.... yes wise in the sense of knowing a lot of good stuff ... but probably not stellar at personally demonstrating how to effectively break off from an unhealthy situation where boundaries have not been honored over and over.

I'm just saying ... if you want to live with more broken boundaries , that is your right.
If you don't, then you must not tolerate an inch of breach.

Pep

2L,

Whew, I'm relieved to "hear" you sounding Ok!

I have to say, I agree with this....

*I do nothing until I've spoken 2 either Penny or counselor1 (if she's still out there)... ...or Steve Harley (though his price will really set my W off - not that I care).

The cost of counseling as you can imagine is cheap compared to what she's facing... Give SH a call and schedule an appointment - IMHO.

The info on secrecy/privacy is great to see again. There are many on this board who haven't seen it I'm sure.

Congratulations on canceling your CA membership!

Edited to add - that the reason I say SH is because she's already talked to your other coach as I recall - and although I like counselor1 very much, I think you need someone of SH's expertise. I liked counselor1 for you as an IC.

Trix:

"If I remember correctly, your WW is rather cynical about marriage as most of us define/understand it here at MB."

One of the benefits of having been M'd 2 this woman for so long (29.5 years) and having "plan Aed" for 40 months now, working 2 break the CA barriers and COMMUNICATE for rice cake, is that I have seen an evolution in her thinking, particularly over the past 3 or 4 months, with a definite "closeness" accelleration, if you will, in the past 2 weeks. Yes, she is still cynical about marriage, but nowhere near as acidically so as she was last year. Do I think she's coming out of the fog? Yes, frankly I do. Do I think she's almost out of the fog? No. Not at all. Do I think I can plan B? No. Not at all. SS asked me some time ago if I enjoyed being alone when she was out of town for work, or a conference, or something, and I said "yes." Being with her lately is much less heartburn-exacerbating than it was as recently as last summer, but being without her is also enjoyable. If she wants 2 leave, I will make sure the door doesn't get damaged hitting her on her way out. But I would hope that she'll continue talking 2 me about this. This is negotiation - which would have been impossible while I was a card-totin' member of the CASC - and negotiating the end of the A, contact, whatever, is supposed 2 be what plan A is all about. Even 40-month plan As, right?

"She doesn't of hasn't bought into monogamy...unless she just has a double standard."

She has a 2ble standard. I don't think she's really given serious thought 2 her suggestion that *I* find someone 2 play with on the side, though she knows I've not done that (and won't). A case where I do wonder what she would think about her behavior if she thought I might be inclined 2 fool around on her? She brought up her making that suggestion years ago, but when it didn't "work" 2 alleviate guilt or blame, she accused me of wanting 2 own her.

"She is a left over of the 'love the one your with' mentality. I am the same age as you are 2long. I've BTDT. It seems your WW never progressed past that era except that she agreed to marry you in the first place. It is one thing to believe it can work and another to actually live it. (maybe this is a bit off topic..) "

We're each other's "first loves". At the time we met, she was very religious, and not inclined 2 play the field (though she did have boyfriends when we met). She didn't want 2 lose her independence by getting married, though. I guess she reiterated that, or is using it as an excuse for bad choices now.

"I saw an interview with Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell"

My W and I watched that 2gether! I found it very, very interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------
"It's not as if we didn't talk about it. We talked about it a lot," says Russell. "And the bottom line of it was, neither one us really cared. In that regard, Goldie and I don't have much truck with society. We live outside of society to a large degree."
------------------------------------------------------------

This lifestyle is a lot easier 2 lead if you're rich.

------------------------------------------------------------
Adds Russell: "There's a lot about society I just don't give a s--- about, and neither does she. We just don't care."
------------------------------------------------------------
The rebel mentality. Not that he has 2 cow tow 2 society - nobody should. But this is an excuse for "doing your own thing" not a reason for it. I remember hearing approving noises from my W at the time.

------------------------------------------------------------
The secret to their successful relationship is not the norm either. Theirs is an open-door policy.

"For instance, I don't like the idea of somebody closing a door and saying, 'You can't walk out the door.' I don't like that feeling," says Hawn. "Now, if somebody keeps the door open, I could be a bird in that cage forever and never fly out."
------------------------------------------------------------
More approving noises. But this is not much deeper than a really good for2ne cookie, really. Nobody owns another person. We all have choices we can make. But we all have responsibilities 2 make either/or choices and grieve the lost alternatives. I believe that my W interpreted this atti2de (from the interview) as validation of her behavior. She thinks I keep the cage door closed, but I don't.

Funny, the metaphor. Why a cage at all? That says a lot 2 me as I remember the interview now. I don't keep any birds in cages - metaphorically or otherwise.

------------------------------------------------------------
"And if you have a girl who says that, then you don't cheat," says Russell. "I mean, if you have a woman who does feel that way, and you meet them, I gotta tell ya, it's pretty exhilarating."
------------------------------------------------------------

And why would it he consider it cheating, then?

------------------------------------------------------------
"Open marriage?" asks Wallace.

"Doesn't work," says Hawn. "Open marriage does not work. It's a great concept."
------------------------------------------------------------

Quiet, in the 2long household. I may have made a 2ple of approving grunts, but she didn't make a sound.

------------------------------------------------------------
"You've tried it?" asks Wallace.

"Early in the '70s, it was a big deal about having relationships that way. And I can't say we tried it," says Hawn. "But in my first marriage, I think there was sort of -- we discussed it. Ultimately, human nature doesn’t let it happen."
------------------------------------------------------------

2 quote Oingo Boingo's "On the Outside", a little about ol' 2long's morality:

"I never even tried - the Counter Culture passed me right by!"

"(by the way, I think that it is sad that Goldie Hawn needed to remain unmarried to feel free to commit to Kurt...pretty messed up to me)"

Agree.

"I think your WW would have really liked, (at least her idea of) the one sided open marriage idea to work. She seems to only thrive in her secret second life; she seems to feel so entitled to it. Maybe as Pep stated back on page 2 of this thread that your WW self medicates with OM-RM."

I think so. Question is, do I "help her", on the assumption that she is making progress out of the fog, or blow her off and plan B? (separate with intent 2 amicably DV)

-ol' 2long

2Long

go read butterscotch7's thread (it's about NC letter) and pay special attention to what elspeth said..

Pep

Are you smokin' something?

"amicably DV" ... are you kidding? Sure, it will be amicable alright as long as you roll over and give her everything she wants and let her make all the decisions irregardless of how it may affect you in a negative way.

There is no "fog" here 2Long ... there is only continued deceit and willfull wronging of your marriage.

Another discussion with her is like farting in a hurricane. Talk with your feet. Action-words only. Nothing passive.

My impression & 2L - correct me if I'm wrong is...

You are willing to walk away, you're just not willing to Plan B right?

Okay, then, I am very clear on Pep's position ~ and, intrigued at the combination of words in the above sentence. And, she is RIGHT, too.

More action, mister.

Spidey

My s2dent hasn't showed up. I'm going 2 have 2 take up a lot of slack since she'll be gone for a 2ple weeks and we've got a big presentation coming up late next month. She needs the training.

But this gives me time 2 think about this "li'l problem" of mine some more.

Where are the sample NC letters on the 4um?

-ol' 2long

2L,

I paged SC to support you, and he's having trouble getting on this new forum....can you go to our other website on your thread and give him a few tips on how to get on here!

I tried to help him....but as you know computers aren't my strength!

2Long,

Hey buddy, you have to do what you think you have to do OK?

Do you think 40 months is long enough?

How 'bout 40 more?

I've read 2-3,000,000 of your posts, you are a smart guy, you are a good guy OK?

You (like I was) have been so passive for so long your W knows she can do anything she damn well pleases and you'll eat it up like apple pie with ice cream.

It seems to me it is time to DO something 2Long.

I paid off my car faster than your plan A. I mean great! You plan A'ed a long friggin' time, but you are turning into a martyr, minus the explosives and a crowded restaraunt!

If nothing else set a Goldurn time table for this nonsense...say plan A over December 31st this year or something....something!

If nothing else set a date for this Plan A to end 2Long, you deserve better...

I don't know 2Long, I just don't want to read the same thing from you in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009...it saddens me that you have subjected yourself 2 this for 2long.

In many ways your W is like my XW...ammicable divorce? not unless you roll over, expose your vulnerables, and let her try out various kitchen utensil's in your nether regions. The only way I was able to take my WWXW out of her attack mode was by threatening to expose her to the courts and her work. I was willing to not file all sorts of charges and inform her superiors if she gave me everything I wanted. I showed back bone and she broke.....get it?

Show your W your Backbone. Show her your strength and maybe you won't need to worry about a D. Being peaceful and laid back hasn't worked. You've been around long enough to know thw term "doormat"

I'll give you the recipe for one ammicable divorce in your case right now....

Sign over everything you own, give her everything you have and maybe...MAYBE it would be ammicable. Other than that? You are an [censored] and will be treated as such.

THere will be no ammicable divorce 2Long.


Your Friend
RebornMan

Draft (or is that "draught?") NC letter (just a preliminary edit of the SYMC sample NC letter. I may change/remove/add stuff as I think about it some more):

Rat Meat,

The relationship I had with you was thoughtless and cruel. It hurt many people, particularly 2long, who did not in any way deserve 2 be treated in that manner. I have recommitted 2 my marriage and am determined 2 make amends for the hurt I've caused and 2 be the partner my 2long deserves.

I am terribly sorry for all the pain I've caused, including 2 you, xMrs Meat and your 2 boys. As I said, I was thoughtless and cruel. I hope that you will find healing and peace.

Because of the terrible offense 2 2long and our kids and the damage I have done 2 our marriage I am permanently ending all contact with you, including work-related. I would ask that you respect my wish 2 regain my ethics and integrity and 2 heal my family and that you do not attempt 2 contact me in any way at any time. I will not speak 2 you for any reason at professional conferences.

2long has been told all the details of our relationship and he will also be told of any attempts you make 2 contact me.

Once again, I am sorry for the pain I've caused to 2long, my family, and 2 everyone else who has been affected by our actions.

Sincerely,

Mrs 2long

Hey Q;
So sorry to hear this going on again...
You know how I feel about this, though. There comes a time when we must decide for ourselves what we want in our lives, and what we don't. And regardless of the fear/uncertainty this may cause in bringing it about, believe me, it is a path well worth treading.

In your case in particular, after all this time and effort, I'd have to endorse one of the more radical solutions. With love, of course, but firmly sending the message that she must make a choice, and make it NOW, or the train will keep going down the tracks.

I suspect your only choice now IS to begin divorce proceedings and let her know in no uncertain terms that they will continue unless (fill in the blank with what you will accept) (NC, NC letter, commit to counseling, etc.)

You know it did not work in my case to bring about any change in D, but it put me in control of what I want in my life, and here I am...2+ years later, doing very well, and with a new person in my life who loves and respects me...
It wasn't easy, and it was not the outcome I'd hoped for, but it was the inevitable outcome of an affair that won't end.

Love you, my friend. Courage, head high, love in your heart.

Hello there 2long,

I am so very sorry to hear about the recent turn of events.

I am a little confused though, even after having read nearly all of this thread. Help me out - you found messages she wrote to him on the computer, which she later deleted. You burned your CA membership. You directly asked her about the messages and she brushed them off, saying it was necessary contact for work and nothing more. Most of the replies on here are from folks who think she's still double dipping and therefore you should walk away. However, you still think you can possibly talk to her ("help her" to use your words), and work things out somehow?

"Question is, do I "help her", on the assumption that she is making progress out of the fog, or blow her off and plan B? (separate with intent 2 amicably DV)" ??

I for one don't think she would "get" what plan B is, considering how little respect she has for MB in general. Things wouldn't change if you went to plan B in my opinion. Wait...didn't you sort of already try plan B for a short time at one point? Refresh my memory, how did that go?

My question for you is this: Do you think you can imagine living your life without her? Is there a way to divide your assets evenly and manage to live separately, even though the house renovations/restorations continue? Is divorcing her something you really think you could do?

I want you to be happy and be free from the heartache she causes with her continued contact with RM, with her lack of intimacy. However, I wonder if being on your own without her truly something you want? (If you've stayed with her this long, through this much.....)

Just my 2 cents worth,

Jen

What makes you think she wants to send this?
What makes you think she will send this?
What makes you think she will abide by this?


Your focus is wrong. You are focusing on what you want her to do. She has shown you time and time again what she is going to do.

What about what YOU are going to do?

I am interested in hearing your answer to the question asking how you can divorce but you cannot do Plan B ?

Susan

I don't think a draft letter needs to be discussed. More like a draught beer. Take a long swallow of a cold drink. Tell her next month is June 1 and to be gone by then.

In the meantime, you hire an ambulance chaser and start the process to divide your assets - including selling your property if you can't buy her out.

You take control and exorcise this leach from your life.

Please go for the Full Monty. Play hardball and kill this beast - the beast that has been a fake relationship.

No messing with mamby pamby draft NC letters. RM is not the problem.

Draught beer - cold, wet, and by the time you're at the bottom of the mug - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Plan D and Plan B simultaneously. You've had it. Plan D is needed to set the stage for Plan B in your whacked out State.

WAT

Ummmmm...That's not Plan A anymore, 2long. You know that. The Harleys say Plan A should not last more than -- what? -- four or six months. After that, it's enabling.

2long, I've never been able to post to you before, because I honestly don't know what to say in your sitch. If you want to put up with this, no one can say that you shouldn't. But to imagine it's going to end some day is...well, imagination.

Frankly, I am saddened by your draft NC letter, in which "she" elaborately apologizes for the way she has hurt you. She obviously doesn't care much. And on your part, this seems like fantasy wishful-thinking. I'd drop this stuff. If she'd tapered off contact by one email a day, NC would have been achieved a couple years ago.

You have to decide: are you going to be posting in 2015 lamenting about how she wheeled her wheelchair to RM's house, or a new RM? This might sound sarcastic -- but my point is to rattle you out of imagining there's something different at the bottom of the box. Some people can decide that the marriage is worth the compromise, especially when they know divorce is the only other option. But then why post? Why not just accept that that's the way it is in your house? It would be a bitter pill -- but not as bitter as this strung-out, elaborately justified fantasy.

SC!!!

Man!, the things it TAKES 2 get you 2 post anymore!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ...sorry about that. My revolting sense of humor again!

"There comes a time when we must decide for ourselves what we want in our lives, and what we don't. And regardless of the fear/uncertainty this may cause in bringing it about, believe me, it is a path well worth treading."

And believe me, I look at the fu2re, uncertain and fraught with house completions and kids and relatives renting our other properties, with joy. I don't need this anymore. The EARTH is a beautiful place, even if the world can sometimes seem depressing and ugly.

"In your case in particular, after all this time and effort, I'd have to endorse one of the more radical solutions. With love, of course, but firmly sending the message that she must make a choice, and make it NOW, or the train will keep going down the tracks."

That, I agree with wholeheartedly.

"I suspect your only choice now IS to begin divorce proceedings and let her know in no uncertain terms that they will continue unless (fill in the blank with what you will accept) (NC, NC letter, commit to counseling, etc.)"

Please offer ideas for the NC letter I'm working on, above. I have an hour and a half 2 polish it and send it 2 her before I go home.

"You know it did not work in my case to bring about any change in D, but it put me in control of what I want in my life, and here I am...2+ years later, doing very well, and with a new person in my life who loves and respects me..."

I'm so happy for you!!! I hope I get 2 see you next time I happen 2 be in town. And, it's this kind of prospect that I look forward 2. If I do nothing, my W WILL hang on2 RM. So, by doing something concrete and serious, I can look forward 2 that kind of fulfillment in not 2long, either with her, by myself, or with someone new.

"Love you, my friend. Courage, head high, love in your heart."

The feeling is very mu2al. You've been an inspiration!

-ol' 2long

Q~~~

I sent a reply to your email and it was returned "mailbox full" at iloveulove

Pep