At the risk of taking some abuse for voicing an opinion not deemed "soft" and "snuzzly" and "supportive", I have to very seriously question what you have been doing for the 40 months of this affair. I am kind of awe struck at your own self denial of the very sad predicament you are in. It is almost like you have been "here for the ride" but haven't really learned anything.

I just don't quite understand how you could be on this board for the length you have been here and read all of the incredibly terrible things that have happened here to BS who did what you are doing, and talk like this. There is not an "I TOLD YOU SO" about any of this. You should know by now what is gonna happen...noone here needs to say "I told you so".

I think you 2long are a case of what can go wrong when someone takes "marriage building" to the extreme case of self denial. Sadly, I am sure there are 100 hundered people out there now who think you are great because you are "fighting for your marriage". I don't think it is noble at all to stand in the ring and get bloodied to a pulp for 10 rounds. The sad and true fact is that your wayward wife DOES NOT respect you in any way, shape, or form. There is no possible way that she could. I know that I could never respect someone who let me do this to them. She may feel pity or sadness for you, but it is NOT RESPECT. If those are things that you are willing to forgo to "stay married", then I think you are probably on the right path. I am probably not telling you anything that you don't already know, but sometimes you just have to wonder.

It is in the end your choice to suffer through 201343333 D days, so you should reap all of the consequences of YOUR CHOICES. You are in the predicament you are in becasue of YOUR ACTIONS. That is a tough pill to swallow for us all, I know, I really know.

I wish you success in your plan.

Cheers,

LM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2long,

Gotta jump on the lemonman bandwagon here. And I say that with the utmost respect to you. From what I can gather from your postings, you seem like an honorable man.

In one of my engineering books was the following quote: (not verbatim)


The point is, to enter a new theory and have it become a law, it must become EXPLICITLY proven.

Fermat's last theorem had enough NUMERICAL attempts that most would have BET that it was so. But it wasn't until Andrew Wiles EXPLICITLY proved it that it was TRULY and RIGOROUSLY so.

In my real world I try and use science as much as possible. It avoids costly mistakes and takes the feelings out of decisions. But rarely do I get the time to be EXPLICITLY sure of my decisions. And I still have to make them. I use math and science to refine my position iteratively. Then the deadline arrives and I have to DECIDE. And my decision is usually I am 90% confident that it is "this way."

I have peers that don't get anything done. They get caught up in the rigor. "Analysis paralysis" is the term.

So on what day does the boss call YOU on your decision? When is it time to stop analyzing and refining and start DECIDING?

Fermat DIED in 1665. No one KNEW his "last theorem" was true until 1994. That's 329 YEARS until we knew. Who has the time to wait THAT out?

Me, I'd have bet on Fermat in 1670, or 1672 or so and gone on to other things. It's all about acceptable losses.

NCWalker

lm, ncw:

You guys are right. I don't disagree. Ain't that all wonderful?

I told her I need NC for life right now. Didn't get it. Didn't really expect 2, but I did hope we'd have had a more civil convo than we did. She went downstairs 2 sleep 2night.

I'm tired, going 2 bed soon.

I've had pangs, but they're brief and not very intense. I am hopeful for a good night's sleep 2night. 2morrow is another day.

2dles,
-ol' 2long

2L,

Sad thing is, "right" would be for the 2 of you to work it out. I just think LM and I are realistic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Will pray for you, my friend. Pretty sure the vibes will get through in a format agreeable to your spirituality and do you some good.

Get some sleep.

NCW

ncw:

Thanks. I don't think I'm unrealistic, though obviously you 2 disagree.

I'm going 2 keep trying, because I know it's the right thing 2 do, but my optimism isn't doing so well anymore.

-ol' 2long

I think it is always clearer to see other peoples situations objectively than to really see our own. It is easier to see where others are wrong than ourselves.

You have a huge heart 2long...to your own detriment.
If she rejected lifetime NC then she gave you your answer in regards to your marriage. She insists on having both of you...her way. You are then in a kind of like Seuss's the North-going Zak and the South-going Zak impasse.

It is your choice to settle for your marriage to continue in this manner. If you choose to accept that without challenging her to move out soon...like June 1st as she offered, then it seems you will remain in your own chosen homeostasis.

Will it be 'peace' at all costs.

It won't be peace at all costs

Will it be peace at your expense?

Susan

Glad to hear it.

Somehow she needs a wake up call. I can not see that she would be okay with you doing that same thing she's been doing by hanging on to an OP this long.

I do think she wants you both in her life.

I really wonder how long it would really last if RM had to meet all her needs. Maybe she'd be fine to settle for whatever lifestyle that would turn out to be..given he has a GF. There would be consequences that may not set well with her... like the potential loss of the respect of her/your kids.

Susan:

It HAS been peace at my expense.

-ol' 2long

Would it be disrespectful of me 2 characterize RM an Australopithef***?

I'm pretty sure that there are no more Austraolpithecines anymore, so I'm not likely 2 insult them...

-ol' 2long

If anyone is trying 2 email me at **edit** I just found that it's still not working even though I've cleared a lot out of the mailbox.

Last time this happened, it seemed 2 take a week or more 2 "heal", so if you're trying 2 send anything, keep using **edit** for the next while or 2.

Pep?

-ol' 2long

what?

I decided not to resend the email because I was becoming superfluous.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep:

Okay, but if you still need 2 jerk a knot upside my haid with your long-stemmed 2x4, feel free!

-ol' 2long

2Long,

I have stayed out of this thread for a variety of reasons. One I did not feel I had something "compelling" to say to you. Second, a lot of what I thought was being voiced by others. Third, I, like a few others here, know you personally.

This third point is very very crucial to me. I view you as a friend, and yes a colleague. I have deep respect for you personally and professionally. So I have a hard time offering you advice at this crucial time.

But, I would ask you to consider something. I would ask you to consider if you are a "holder". I am. I NEVER throw away books even paper paperbacks. I am that way investing, so I have had to adjust my investing strategies to take into account that I like to hold, accumulate, etc. I am NOT a trader.

Further, as you well know I am like you I love to gather knowledge.

Now if you are like me, then the issue for you to question is are you being a "holder" when in fact, the pages of this book have yellowed and turned to dust. Are you afraid there is NOT another book out there for you to "hold"? While you know full well I am not a woman, I think I can speak from some knowledge you are a person that other people enjoy being around. I think you can and will find someone better suited to you.

Now I know you want to "hold" your family together. But, is some of your strategy based on not wanting to let go for fear of...?

Please think about this. You may never know what motivates your W. But, you can know and understand what motivates you. I like the others want to see you happy. If I controlled the world you would be happy and your W would be happy and you both would be happy together. I don't have that control, frankly neither do you.

So please consider YOUR motivations for the decisions you make, for the dreams you have, for the future you want, and then act accordingly. This is NOT much in the way of advice, but it is the best I can offer.

I know how you belive, but...

God Bless,

JL

2long,

Listen. You are WAFFLING. What are you afraid of? My dealings with 2nd OM were quite the wake-up call. You have EVERY RIGHT to have firm boundaries. But it may cost you the relationship.

Stop and think - WHY SHOULDN'T IT???

Either your WW and OM is an acceptable situation to you, or it is NOT.

What are you afraid of? Being alone? Or is there something you are not telling us?

Me? I'd rather die alone the allow someone else to subject me with an unacceptable situation.

You have run through the fire for so long I don't think she takes you seriously.

I don't. (Don't get me wrong, I like you a lot.) But I have heard you come on here and say "it is unacceptable" from the time my FIRST A started.

NCWALKER: D-Day 1 > NCW decides to forgive and work on marriage > NCW does > Things seem OK > NCW WW decides she DOESN'T want marriage > Enter OM#2 > Exit NCW

See that? MILESTONES are there. Here is you in the SAME TIME FRAME:

2LONG: WW & OM is unacceptable

OK. We believe you. Now MAKE her believe you.

Jiminy Crickets, if I knew who you really were I would abduct you for your own good.

NCW

2LONG:

I also asked you earlier, like NC, about your fears.

What is your answer to this?

Ohhhhh, okay, I'll say it again, and all of you can whack me. NCW is right. 2L has been saying "it is unacceptable." But the point is ... he has been accepting it. Maybe it's not "unacceptable" for him, though it would be for us. And do we have a right to judge that?

I think 2L has to bring that contradiction into focus: "it is unacceptable" and "I have accepted it for years," then change one or the other. I think he's baking in the unresolved contradiction, and that's excruciating. He could "move on" (I hate that cliche) if he either accepted that this is the painful, unconventional compromise he is CHOOSING and will continue to live with, which would require some major readjustments in his thinking and emotions -- or else ended it, which would also require some major adjustments, financial, emotional, and otherwise. But he is doing neither -- he is living in the illusion that a big change is about to happen, the beautiful sunrise that never quite happens, leaving him in a dark, pre-dawn haze. And THAT is torture.

JL: Love your post. I'm a "holder," too.

P.S. If you choose the "Smiley" solution, 2L (see John LeCarre), be aware that it may not be a steady state. Smiley's wife, as you may recall, was promiscuous in a shallow sort of way, and Smiley worked with the painful compromise to keep her.

But this has been an ongoing R for years. RM is available now, and may eventually be pushign for more and more of WW's time. WW could be pushing the GF out of the way. This could be moving to closure with RM and WW, in which case the decision will be made for you.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."